Jump to content
Puck

Appeal Tips and Tricks

Recommended Posts

Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
On 11/15/2017 at 8:17 AM, Puck said:

This is my own guideline that I made myself, no other admods have weighted in at this point in time though I encourage them to do so in the thread below and maybe I can update this once they do. I just wanted to do this and maybe will help some people. Honestly, it kind of already exists here but this thread might still be helpful for some individuals so I'm making it.

 

SO, you got a warn/ban, eh?

 

That kinda stinks, don't it?

 

But don't worry, there is something that can be done! AN APPEAL! Yes, this action can be taken away and completely stricken from the record if you can successfully show that you did not in fact breach ToS.

 

But wait! You might want to take a moment to think before you start your appeal because it can be trickier than you think. Here are a few things to consider....

 

 

The Challengers

The hardest part of appeals is the fact that you have to prove to admods who spend hours a week discussing if posts did or did not breach ToS that you did not. This means admods simply know ToS better as well as know precedent much better.

 

This is like going to court to represent yourself against a practicing lawyer. The lawyer probably knows the law better than you, so you are in a bit of hot water!

 

But fear not! This does not mean you will automatically lose, it just means you will have to be smarter with your approach!

 

 

Get by with a little help from your friends

On the flip side, always feel free to reach out to a current (or former, if they are willing) admod for help when drafting your appeal. Especially if you have a good relationship with them, they will be happy to share their ToS knowledge and give suggestions on how admods will perceive your appeal. It's no guarantee that you will win, but it's a really good way to up your chances.

 

Why fight the lawyers alone when you can get one to help?

 

 

Never justify a ToS breach; you will lose

To justify an action is to admit you did it, after all. If you insulted someone but you say you did it because they insulted you first, you are admitting guilt. There is no justification that can get you out of a warning/ban. Period.

 

Instead, focus on why your post was not actually a breach of ToS.

 

 

Never say you didn't know

Sorry, when you signed up for AVEN you clicked a little box claiming you read and agreed with the Terms of Service. If you didn't actually read it/remember it, that's on you.

 

 

Never speak about your appeal in public until it is over

It automatically disqualifies any appeal, as stated in ToS.

 

 

Be annoyingly specific with termenology

Use the ToS clause you were provided word for word. After all, admods cannot hold users to anything but what ToS says.

 

For example, the Troll cause:

 

 

Was your intent not to "provoke other users into and emotional response?" Say so. Intent is hard to prove and often not a great way to get an appeal accepted, but for this specific clause, if you can explain how the specific wording of your post was trying to make a point rather than provoke other users, you might well win your case.

 

Really read the section of ToS that you received from admods to explain your warn/ban. If none was provided (which sometimes happens for troll-bans), then email admods and ask them to clarify. They will provide you with a clause, which posts specifically were a problem, and their explanation of why your post was decided to have breached that clause.

 

 

Use past cases

You do not at all have to do this, but if you want to take the time it could help you

 

Admods often decide if something breached ToS based on precedent. This is similar to the way the US government does things as past court cases are often used to show why this current case should or should not get the same treatment.

 

You can find the public old reports here.

 

When you do this, keep in mind to check that ToS didn't change since the old report was made.

 

 

Show remorse

Especially when the post is something that falls under a clause that seems meant to protect other users "feelings."

 

When showing remorse, you DO NOT have to admit guilt or say you'll never do it again. It can be a "non-apology" (though, for some cases, a real apology can go much farther).

 

For example, you can say something along the lines of:

 

 

As you can hopefully see, this shows remorse for how the post was perceived, but does not apologize for making the post.

 

 

Be respectful; remember you are appealing to people, not a faceless machine

To some people, it feels like just some nameless, faceless, organization of doom and getting a warning/ban feels intimidating; I get it. 

 

But most admods truly just want AVEN to be as enjoyable a place to as many members as humanly possible and giving out these warnings/bans is a necessary evil for behavior correction. But you can absolutely speak to those who have given you a warning or any other admod for clarification or support on any issue.

 

Also remember that admods are people with feelings and appeals that are meant to show that ToS was not breached will be more successful if you shows these people respect. This is not to say that you have to fall to your knees and beg the mighty overlords for forgiveness, but if your appeal mentions that you feel the leadership of the site is corrupt and unfair, you're going to have a harder time getting them to see your side of things. You don't have to like the leadership, but respect is important to show all individuals.

 

Showing them respect simply means treating them like people and maybe even giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to do what is best for AVEN. You can disagree with what is best for AVEN, but keeping in mind that that is their goal might help you see that they aren't trying to go after you, just keep AVEN a grand place for members to visit.

 

 

Good luck!

I hope this little guide sheds some light into the process, at very least.

 

I am sure other admods will happily weigh in on their own thoughts and you should feel free to ask any questions!

Maybe things have changed now but I've found the appealing process literally useless when I have done it, even when I got a warn despite NOT BREAKING TOS and a former mod told me I definitely had grounds for appeal. When I mentioned the situation in the forums my posts were removed and I was told 'you're not allowed to discuss the situation while it's under appeal' (I hope there is a part of the ToS that actually states that, I haven't seen it but I'm sure it must be there, right?) then I didn't hear anything for ages and it turns out the appeal was declined anyway. So this whole post of yours kind of feels like a bit of a farce Puck!! I know you mean well, but I haven't personally met anyone here who has had a good experience with the appeal process (I'm sure there are some..maybe? I just haven't met them).. Most just end up pissed off and disheartened especially when they didn't break ToS in the first place (I've got two warns, each of which came with a temp ban from AVEN, for NOT BREAKING TOS lol).

 

On 11/15/2017 at 8:17 AM, Puck said:

appeals that are meant to show that ToS was not breached will be more successful if you shows these people respect.

But yeah if it happens again (for something that is not breaking ToS) I'll try all this and see if it helps, but to be honest, I wonder if maybe the more important issue is not giving people warns if they didn't break ToS? Wouldn't that save everyone time and stress?

 

And when I say 'I didn't break ToS' I don't mean 'it could be interpreted that I didn't break it' I mean, what I did (1 bitching about a particularly toxic youtuber, and 2 making general statements that sexual fluidity is a lot rarer than many seem to think in a thread where no one was even identifying as 'sexually fluid' and the comments were only about my OWN sexual experiences, no one elses) did not break any part of the ToS. They called the one where I was moaning about the YouTube 'stalking and harassing', but how come everyone who says mean shit about Trump doesn't also get warned for 'stalking and harassing'? lol. I kind of think if it's absolutely not outlined anywhere in the ToS, should you really be allowed to give someone a warn for it? Seems more like admods taking issue with an opinion and wanting to punish the member for it, to be perfectly frank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I don’t think “showing remorse” is one of the top priority when appealing a warn or a nudge.You appeal something you disagree with, not because you wanna show remorse.

 

Guideline is good but just wanted to comment on that one

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member4445
3 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Everybody, can we keep this on topic please. If people want to raise a specific case in the past could you start another thread. Skycaptain moderator site comments 

It is on topic, the appealing process sucks ass and I’m explaining why. 

 

Also *terminology. The op is bothering me. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Janus DarkFox

No specifics on members banned, warned or nudged from the site or partially from some or most of the site when done so outside of the ToS.  There's no discourse ant there's no ToS to refer to, especially in the case of indefinite or permanent non-ToS judgements.

 

Also on some topic, showing remorse is usually a full admittance of guilt, far as I know, as long as it can b proven, genuine and not an attempt to get away from ruling judgements, disingenuous remorse cam or should be punished more harshly.  One problem with this, written text cant really prove remorse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate

Still waiting for an admod to hear from an admod on what you should do if you lose your appeal based on something that wasn't well explained (or proven) in the original warn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
♣Ryan♣
5 hours ago, FaerieFate said:

Still waiting for an admod to hear from an admod on what you should do if you lose your appeal based on something that wasn't well explained (or proven) in the original warn.

I feel like the member should be allowed to reapeal on the updated explanation, but currently there is no rule that allows that. It is a policy change that the admods should implement in some form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate
4 hours ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

I feel like the member should be allowed to reapeal on the updated explanation, but currently there is no rule that allows that. It is a policy change that the admods should implement in some form.

I like you. Good luck on your election.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Puck
On 11/15/2017 at 11:35 PM, FaerieFate said:

Okay, so what if you validly argue your point, and they get you for things not explicitly stated or well explained to you? 

Hmmm. So this is just my opinion and each situation is nuanced so I don't know if I can give the best advice, but the reality is that if one appealed and lost, right now there is nothing more that can be done.

 

Now, if one haven't appealed yet, if I were in that situation, I would try to talk to a trusted current admod to make sure I understood the situation as well as I could. I know I've tried to help people craft appeals who had never been on staff and were unclear on how best to make their case. Obviously, I'm one admod so there's no promise that I'm gonna be able to craft a winning appeal, but it helps.

 

I fear that's the only advice I can give in that situation...

 

5 hours ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

I feel like the member should be allowed to reapeal on the updated explanation, but currently there is no rule that allows that. It is a policy change that the admods should implement in some form.

Do you mean there should be endless appeals? I don't know if that would be the perfect solution for all cases as there seem to be some cases where the person who got the action simply won't accept any explanation so the appeals would go on and on. But I could see a second appeal being allowed in the more extreme actions such as third-warn bans, troll-bans, and de-staffings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
♣Ryan♣
1 hour ago, Puck said:

Do you mean there should be endless appeals? I don't know if that would be the perfect solution for all cases as there seem to be some cases where the person who got the action simply won't accept any explanation so the appeals would go on and on. But I could see a second appeal being allowed in the more extreme actions such as third-warn bans, troll-bans, and de-staffings.

No, endless appeals is not very productive at all. I feel some would appeal every chance they get, whether or not their violation is so obvious that they would never win.  I'm saying a system that allows a member to appeal a 3 time on the grounds that as Faeriefate mentioned the warn was not well worded and the response in the appeal didn't match. Basically if the response is such a drastic change from the warn the member should be allowed to appeal on the grounds outlined in the appeal.  I have seen warns and appeals not matching in the past and it seems unfair to the members.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Puck
2 minutes ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

No, endless appeals is not very productive at all. I feel some would appeal every chance they get, whether or not their violation is so obvious that they would never win.  I'm saying a system that allows a member to appeal a 3 time on the grounds that as Faeriefate mentioned the warn was not well worded and the response in the appeal didn't match. Basically if the response is such a drastic change from the warn the member should be allowed to appeal on the grounds outlined in the appeal.  I have seen warns and appeals not matching in the past and it seems unfair to the members.

Gotcha, I like how you are thinking.

 

If you don't mind me fleshing out your idea, who do you think would decide if the warning/appeal weren't matching in content? I think it's obvious admods, as the ones who wrote the bad messages in both case, wouldn't be strong candidates for making this decision, but also some members (not all by any means) might take advantage just to get another chance at an appeal. Perhaps the training team? Though, the problem with TT doing it is that they aren't elected by members into their TT position...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
♣Ryan♣
4 minutes ago, Puck said:

If you don't mind me fleshing out your idea, who do you think would decide if the warning/appeal weren't matching in content? I think it's obvious admods, as the ones who wrote the bad messages in both case, wouldn't be strong candidates for making this decision, but also some members (not all by any means) might take advantage just to get another chance at an appeal. Perhaps the training team? Though, the problem with TT doing it is that they aren't elected by members into their TT position...

I mean even I knew when the messages weren't matching or completely different points being made in each so, it could be the admods, if it was the Admods I would say have it a system where it takes only a few admods to grant the appeal like 2 or 3 Admods agree they don't match. Maybe the TT, I still don't understand what  the TT does or is for, I've read threads on them but it is still confusing to me so probably best I don't make them responsible for something. Once it is decided that the messages don't match a 3rd appeal is granted and the member can go through the appeal process again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Puck
10 minutes ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

I mean even I knew when the messages weren't matching or completely different points being made in each so, it could be the admods, if it was the Admods I would say have it a system where it takes only a few admods to grant the appeal like 2 or 3 Admods agree they don't match. Maybe the TT, I still don't understand what  the TT does or is for, I've read threads on them but it is still confusing to me so probably best I don't make them responsible for something. Once it is decided that the messages don't match a 3rd appeal is granted and the member can go through the appeal process again. 

Well, right now members only get one appeal so I would think it would get a second appeal.

 

And I think you have more faith in admods than I :P I honestly think some would just say "it's fine!" and not want to appeal just because they did their best.

 

I honestly like your idea, I just don't know with how admods is set up right now how to make it work. You could be right, perhaps admods would be able to grant second appeals. But I'm just not sure...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

The test forum could be used for appeals to make it more of a dialogue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Puck
21 minutes ago, pook said:

The test forum could be used for appeals to make it more of a dialogue. 

I was not there for the creation/testing of the test forum. Is there a reason it was not implemented in anyway?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
♣Ryan♣
49 minutes ago, Puck said:

Well, right now members only get one appeal so I would think it would get a second appeal.

 

And I think you have more faith in admods than I :P I honestly think some would just say "it's fine!" and not want to appeal just because they did their best.

 

I honestly like your idea, I just don't know with how admods is set up right now how to make it work. You could be right, perhaps admods would be able to grant second appeals. But I'm just not sure...

I put the amount of admod needed low and the question isn’t whether the member’s warn should be overturned it would be if the two messages are too different that the person’s appeal couldn’t address things they weren’t told

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
25 minutes ago, Puck said:

I was not there for the creation/testing of the test forum. Is there a reason it was not implemented in anyway?

I think it just got forgotten. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Puck
Just now, pook said:

I think it just got forgotten. 

Oh :P That happens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member4445
4 hours ago, Puck said:

Hmmm. So this is just my opinion and each situation is nuanced so I don't know if I can give the best advice, but the reality is that if one appealed and lost, right now there is nothing more that can be done.

 

Now, if one haven't appealed yet, if I were in that situation, I would try to talk to a trusted current admod to make sure I understood the situation as well as I could. I know I've tried to help people craft appeals who had never been on staff and were unclear on how best to make their case. Obviously, I'm one admod so there's no promise that I'm gonna be able to craft a winning appeal, but it helps.

 

I fear that's the only advice I can give in that situation...

 

Do you mean there should be endless appeals? I don't know if that would be the perfect solution for all cases as there seem to be some cases where the person who got the action simply won't accept any explanation so the appeals would go on and on. But I could see a second appeal being allowed in the more extreme actions such as third-warn bans, troll-bans, and de-staffings.

Do you declare in the appeals thread that you’ve helped the appealer write their appeals and abstain from any part of the conversation/vote? Because I can’t remember that ever happening and it’s a pretty hugh conflict of interest. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Puck
34 minutes ago, Ciri said:

Do you declare in the appeals thread that you’ve helped the appealer write their appeals and abstain from any part of the conversation/vote? Because I can’t remember that ever happening and it’s a pretty hugh conflict of interest. 

You wouldn't have seen the threads as it was after you had left staff that I first began helping.

 

I agree it's a very large conflict of interest, so don't worry, I would always abstain if I had any hand in drafting an appeal. Vague advice like this, though, feels morally ok to me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Janus DarkFox

What happened to the 3 Appeals once per 6 months rule, unless thats for the more extreme long term disciplinaries outside of the ToS framework?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate
1 hour ago, Janus DarkFox said:

What happened to the 3 Appeals once per 6 months rule, unless thats for the more extreme long term disciplinaries outside of the ToS framework?

Warnings only last 3-6 months. It's pointless to appeal after a warning expires. That might be for bans or something. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate

@Puck and @Skycaptain

 

I propose this thread be pinned, moved to Site and Info center,  and a list of team members/former team members that offer to help members with appeals be put in OP.

 

Why? Members may not know who former team members are,  and they may only feel comfortable asking people for help if they offer.

 

I think members will look in Site and Info Center for how to appeal. But if you think they'd look in Site Comments that's fine. 

 

If this thread gets buried warned members wouldn't have resources provided here. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate

In terms of the discussion about multiple appeals, which has my full support,  I propose that a member is allowed to message the admod that sent the warn a many times as necessary to get further clarification on their appeal. I make this proposal because the general consensus when I was a mod was an admod should limit the times they warn a member to avoid arguments. However, that mindset prevents clarifications when asked. If admods have several offenses in one warn it could get messy and hard to understand. Note, this rule can only be used for clarifications and not to debate a warn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skycaptain

There is no restriction on the number of times a member can message admods. Sometimes, if answering one question raises another, it can result in a prolonged conversation. Other times these can get turned into forum debates, or debates within the admod team if it's felt that, for example, there's a lack of clarity in a ToS clause, or the clause is potentially unfair. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member4445

K So since Admods are continuously denying things have happened. In the interest of transparency I’m going to post every screenshot I have to prove everything you’ve accused me of lying about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate
7 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

There is no restriction on the number of times a member can message admods. Sometimes, if answering one question raises another, it can result in a prolonged conversation. Other times these can get turned into forum debates, or debates within the admod team if it's felt that, for example, there's a lack of clarity in a ToS clause, or the clause is potentially unfair. 

When I was a mod, general rule of thumb was to not reply after an appeal had been made because it'd just turn into an argument. Granted, not all admods acted this way, and when I appealed I got better attention, but I later learned the admod I went to for my appeal was simply more dependable.

 

Because of this I think there should be a clause in the TOS to prevent that. Granted, I'm not saying any current admods act this way, I wouldn't know. I just think it should be actively prevented. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mioav
21 hours ago, Puck said:

You wouldn't have seen the threads as it was after you had left staff that I first began helping.

 

I agree it's a very large conflict of interest, so don't worry, I would always abstain if I had any hand in drafting an appeal. Vague advice like this, though, feels morally ok to me.

Can a second member of staff back Puck up? Because this sounds like yet another staff screw up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FaerieFate
On 11/16/2017 at 5:05 AM, FictoVore. said:

Maybe things have changed now but I've found the appealing process literally useless when I have done it, even when I got a warn despite NOT BREAKING TOS and a former mod told me I definitely had grounds for appeal. When I mentioned the situation in the forums my posts were removed and I was told 'you're not allowed to discuss the situation while it's under appeal' (I hope there is a part of the ToS that actually states that, I haven't seen it but I'm sure it must be there, right?) then I didn't hear anything for ages and it turns out the appeal was declined anyway. So this whole post of yours kind of feels like a bit of a farce Puck!! I know you mean well, but I haven't personally met anyone here who has had a good experience with the appeal process (I'm sure there are some..maybe? I just haven't met them).. Most just end up pissed off and disheartened especially when they didn't break ToS in the first place (I've got two warns, each of which came with And when I say 'I didn't break ToS' I don't mean 'it could be interpreted that I didn't break it' I mean, what I did (1 bitching about a particularly toxic youtuber, and 2 making general statements that sexual fluidity is a lot rarer than many seem to think in a thread where no one was even identifying as 'sexually fluid' and the comments were only about my OWN sexual experiences, no one elses) did not break any part of the ToS. They called the one where I was moaning about the YouTube 'stalking and harassing', but how come everyone who says mean shit about Trump doesn't also get warned for 'stalking and harassing'? lol. I kind of think if it's absolutely not outlined anywhere in the ToS, should you really be allowed to give someone a warn for it? Seems more like admods taking issue with an opinion and wanting to punish the member for it, to be perfectly frank.

The harassment part of the TOS is stupid. Not that I think stalking and harassing is okay, but it's often used too loosely by naming victims that aren't victims. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
5 hours ago, FaerieFate said:

The harassment part of the TOS is stupid. Not that I think stalking and harassing is okay, but it's often used too loosely by naming victims that aren't victims. 

In my case I was saying mean things about a very controversial trans YouTuber (who claims that if you have sexual preferences then you're a sexist bigot, pretty much). This person claims that they're a lesbian with a penis, which is fine, but then said if a lesbian doesn't want to have sex with a woman who has a penis she's a transphobe and a bigot and needs to consider re-adjustung her attitude :S So I said some mean things about this YouTuber and made it very clear I wasn't referring to transpeople in general, just this transperson, and that's when I got the warning for stalking and harassment.... Even though the person isn't a member of AVEN..and even though I've literally never stalked or harassed them, I was just bitching about their beliefs. And yes I did bitch about their identity but made it clear it was only them this applied to, not anyone else on AVEN (though, sorry, anyone who thinks they're entitled to sex with whoever they want just because they identify as a minority is a jerk in my book!). I got banned from AVEN for two weeks and got banned from the Gender discussion forum for I think 6 months? (convo didn't even happen in that forum) and I got a 6 month active warn for stalking and harassment as a result of that rant about this jerk YouTuber lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member4445
57 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

In my case I was saying mean things about a very controversial trans YouTuber (who claims that if you have sexual preferences then you're a sexist bigot, pretty much). This person claims that they're a lesbian with a penis, which is fine, but then said if a lesbian doesn't want to have sex with a woman who has a penis she's a transphobe and a bigot and needs to consider re-adjustung her attitude :S So I said some mean things about this YouTuber and made it very clear I wasn't referring to transpeople in general, just this transperson, and that's when I got the warning for stalking and harassment.... Even though the person isn't a member of AVEN..and even though I've literally never stalked or harassed them, I was just bitching about their beliefs. And yes I did bitch about their identity but made it clear it was only them this applied to, not anyone else on AVEN (though, sorry, anyone who thinks they're entitled to sex with whoever they want just because they identify as a minority is a jerk in my book!). I got banned from AVEN for two weeks and got banned from the Gender discussion forum for I think 6 months? (convo didn't even happen in that forum) and I got a 6 month active warn for stalking and harassment as a result of that rant about this jerk YouTuber lol. 

I got banned for stalking/harassment  for 2 weeks for this:

 

F86118_B3-6_EBB-4_BC5-_B229-_CEE77476596

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...