Are Reparations for Slavery in the US a Valid Responsibility?

[nanogretchen4]

If you have whatever percent of a specific type of Native American ancestry is required for tribal membership, yes, you would get a share of whatever benefits were paid to that tribe. And you would pay taxes based on your income like everyone else in America. I'm not sure which Native American groups if any accept DNA testing as proof of ancestry. You would need to contact a specific tribal government.

[Sally]

17 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

If it were up to me, probably, since that is long enough ago to have been subjected to significant legal discrimination on the basis of race. It is much easier to show records of ancestry prior to the end of the Jim Crow laws than to go back to before the Civil War. The majority of African Americans who lived here eighty years ago probably did have ancestors who were slaves. If a few people whose ancestors "only" experienced segregation, discrimination in housing, employment, transportation, and use of public facilities get the payment, that's probably cheaper than trying to prove that on a case by case basis. It's like when 90% of the students in a school district qualify for free lunches, so it's cheaper to give them to everyone than to sort it out. Certainly it would be a closer approximation to justice than doing nothing.

You didn't understand.  The grandfather emigrated here from an African country.  His family was not "African American".  He was simply African.

[nanogretchen4]

I do understand. Your friend and one of her parents are African American. The grandfather, although a first generation immigrant from Africa, was a Black person living in America prior to the civil rights movement. So, he was subjected to significant discrimination but not actual slavery and this is known in the specific case of your friend. But given the difficulty of finding reliable records from before the Civil War, it makes more sense to pick a more recent cutoff date and prove African American ancestry earlier than that date. Depending on the exact cutoff date, your friend's parent might or might not qualify. A few people may get payments whose ancestors experienced severe legal discrimination but not slavery. The great majority of those receiving payments will indeed have ancestors who experienced slavery. We may never know with 100% certainty, because it's not a perfect world and we are not omniscient. Race based affirmative action has no cut off date, and is pretty much based on color and/or self report. Most of the people receiving food stamps actually need them, but some people game the system. At the school I worked at where all students got free lunches, it was known that about 10% of the kids had middle class parents, but again, proving who did and did not qualify would have been more costly than giving away a few extra lunches. Every other program has a margin of error, and this will be no different.

[Sally]

So you are proposing that people who experienced -- or their forebears experienced -- not slavery but discrimination in America would receive reparative payments?  Which would mean that every single ethnic group that emigrated to America since it's beginning EXCEPT for wealthy white European males would receive payments.  Germans, Irish, Chinese, Jews, Italians, Japanese, Russians...they were all discriminated against when they came, because they were either the wrong color, the wrong religion, or they were seen to be taking previous emigrants' jobs, or all three.  

 

And then, of course, the descendants of the wealthy white European males married into all those other categories, so now you have everyone in this f*cking country getting reparations.  

 

Oi vey.  

[nanogretchen4]

No, I am proposing that the reparations should be for slavery, while acknowledging that it will not be possible to determine who was or was not descended from slaves with 100% accuracy. I am proposing a feasible system that will be mostly accurate in getting the money to those who are owed it. I am pointing out that even the handful of "false positives" with this system will absolutely have a family history of severe legally sanctioned discrimination in the US. Discrimination against African Americans is of a different kind than discrimination against other immigrants since it is the legacy of a large scale, legally supported, generational, race based system of slavery.

 

Just to scratch the surface of how African American slavery is different from immigration, the first generation did not come here voluntarily. They were actual property, for life, and their children were property. Women had no defense at all against being raped by their masters, and children were regularly separated from their parents. Even after the end of slavery there was an elaborate system of segregation for generations. Their American born children were legally disenfranchised for many generations. After the Constitution was changed to make it legal for them to vote, groups like the KKK prevented them from doing so. Because of their race and the history of slavery they could not blend in and assimilate after a generation or two as voluntary immigrant groups have done. Honestly, all of this is very obvious to anyone looking at our history objectively. But it's amazing how people can manage to confuse themselves and others when their goal is to cling to their white privilege without owning or addressing their racism.

[A mere monkey]

18 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Just to scratch the surface of how African American slavery is different from immigration, the first generation did not come here voluntarily. They were actual property, for life, and their children were property. Women had no defense at all against being raped by their masters, and children were regularly separated from their parents. Even after the end of slavery there was an elaborate system of segregation for generations. Their American born children were legally disenfranchised for many generations. After the Constitution was changed to make it legal for them to vote, groups like the KKK prevented them from doing so. Because of their race and the history of slavery they could not blend in and assimilate after a generation or two as voluntary immigrant groups have done. Honestly, all of this is very obvious to anyone looking at our history objectively. But it's amazing how people can manage to confuse themselves and others when their goal is to cling to their white privilege without owning or addressing their racism.

You explained it perfectly, were.

I'm Spanish, but I don't think I owe a single cent to any latin american just because some people who might have been my ancestors (or not) went there and took their goal. Or pay reparations to Morocco or Israel because 500 years ago my "country" (which didn't even formally exist as Spain anyway) kicked them out. It's not me clinging to my "white privilege", because first of all there is not such thing in my country and second because the idea is simply ludicrous. I have so much white privilege that I have to pay my bills exactly like everybody else. I guess the fascist, white supremacist establishment is doing a terrible job, then. And I don't know if I understood the last sentence correct, but why do white people have to address their racism when a huge part of them are not racist?

[Gloomy]

Everyone has ancestors who experienced slavery. Slavery has happened all throughout human history, in pretty much every society.

[ThaHoward]

8 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

Everyone has ancestors who experienced slavery. Slavery has happened all throughout human history, in pretty much every society.

But some are more relevant to the current situation than others. 

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[ThaHoward]

3 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

What's the cutoff point?

The slavery in US, and the events following it, have a much more prominent role in society, socio-economics etc than i.e slavery in the Roman Empire. So it may be true that slavery have always happened, but that isn't really a point in itself when speaking of a quite narrow scope of time directly intertwined events. 

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Yatogami]

I have African, and Native American ancestors. I'm also Irish, who faced the most discrimination besides Blacks. 

 

TRIPLE MY REPERATION MONEY

[ThaHoward]

14 hours ago, CaptainYesterday said:

According to whom, though?  And why?  Using what criteria?  History affects history; how do you decide when something is relevant and something isn't?  You're going to need a very precise definition if you want to take money away from people and give it to others.

There's common sense - and understanding of history. You'll be able to put together how the slavery affected the reconstruction, seggragation, civil rights movements in a more direct route than slavery in the Roman Empire. Just ask any historian.

 

What do you believe is the most important to study to understand WW2? WW1 or the Roman-Punic wars? To better understand Russian society today, is the Russian Revolution perhaps a little more relevant than the history of the Songhais? History is the study of how regarding events are related to eachother, to believe that slavery in US is not relevant is ignoring said history and current Society. And you don't have to support reperations to see that.

 

13 hours ago, Yato said:

I have African, and Native American ancestors. I'm also Irish, who faced the most discrimination besides Blacks. 

 

TRIPLE MY REPERATION MONEY

[Sally]

32 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

No no, only blacks. If you're white you were too privileged to be a slave. lol

Read a little history.  lol

[m4rble]

On 12/5/2017 at 11:56 PM, Sally said:

And then, of course, the descendants of the wealthy white European males married into all those other categories, so now you have everyone in this f*cking country getting reparations.  

At that point it's just a Universal basic income. 

[Sally]

35 minutes ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

I already know the history, I think you missed the sarcasm.

Sorry -- if I'd "known" you, I could have assumed the sarcasm.  

[erf]

No, there is nobody alive today who was a slave in America so nobody deserves anything. Who would pay the reparations off? Innocent white people whose relatives were slave owners? Or innocent blacks whose relatives were relatives were free blacks who owned slaves? None of these people today owned slaves so they should not pay anything. 

[LenaLuthor]

No. If black people deserve reparations for slavery, then I do too. My Cherokee ancestors may very well have been forced off their land and made to walk the Trail of Tears to other locales.

 

75% of southerners did not own slaves during the United States Civil War.

[Scott1989]

Maybe reparations aren't the answer now as it maube too difficult, but a BBC video gave a great idea if easing racial tentions, which is admitance if the US of institutionalized racism, similar to Germany did with the holocaust post WW2.

 

Example of this being that ensuring that everyone knows that slave trade was a big factor of the American civil war, which apparently isn't tought all over the US. This is why that video found people would fifht to keep racist symbols in the US. Owning the issue and accepting fully that it's not acceptable in all levels of government may help ease tentions and set to make things better going forward.

[Sally]

2 hours ago, Autumn McJavabean said:

You could also just not assume. The way it's also written to the person, who by the way knew it was sarcasm, was clear. That is your problem for not knowing. Guess you'll know me now as making sarcasm from time to time.

I will definitely know you as someone who answers apologies with a slam. 

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[LenaLuthor]

17 hours ago, Scott1989 said:

 

Example of this being that ensuring that everyone knows that slave trade was a big factor of the American civil war, which apparently isn't tought all over the US. 

Slavery as an institution was one of a number of factors which led to the U.S. civil war. However, it was not the only cause. However, the slave trade was not at least not the international slave trade. The constitution of the Confederate States of America actually forbade the importation of slaves from outside the states.

 

Section 9 (1) of the confederate constitution said: "The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same."

 

Only three of the thirteen Ordinances of Secession mention slavery.

 

75% of southerners did not own slaves.

 

 

[seall]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:31 PM, praetorius said:

There should be reparations for the current and ongoing structural racism problems oppressing people of color, the historical roots of which can be traced back to slavery in this country, but have been maintained by many later processes right up to the present day.

 

A good place to start would be fulfilling the demands of the civil rights movement, many of which have been ignored. Take, for example, the goals of one of the big civil-rights era protest marches, with demands outlining actions considered necessary to start restoring justice:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Washington_for_Jobs_and_Freedom

 

these include a higher minimum wage (when injusted for inflation from $2 1963 dollars), federal infrastructure jobs programs, better protection for union labor rights, "Enforcement of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution by reducing congressional representation from States that disenfranchise citizens" --- quite a few things very relevant for today (and beneficial for the working class of all races).

I agree that we are not paying these hypothetical reparations for slavery but for the system of white supremacy, of which slavery was only one part. Nobody in the United States enslaves people today, but that doesn't mean white people don't still benefit from slavery's legacy and we should extend those material advantages to black people, who are hurt by the legacy of slavery, even when their ancestors were not enslaved. That's why I believe there should be no requirement to prove one's ancestors were enslaved in order to receive reparations.

[LenaLuthor]

On 12/26/2017 at 6:46 PM, seall said:

I agree that we are not paying these hypothetical reparations for slavery but for the system of white supremacy, of which slavery was only one part. Nobody in the United States enslaves people today, but that doesn't mean white people don't still benefit from slavery's legacy and we should extend those material advantages to black people, who are hurt by the legacy of slavery, even when their ancestors were not enslaved. That's why I believe there should be no requirement to prove one's ancestors were enslaved in order to receive reparations.

Benefits like constant guilt and shame and idiots wanting people to pay reparations. No, white people do not still benefit from slavery. White people were not even the only slaveholders in the U.S. during the 19th century. So... If whites must pay reparations, then Africans who sold their own kind into slavery should pay as well.

[Kai99]

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Benefits like constant guilt and shame and idiots wanting people to pay reparations. No, white people do not still benefit from slavery. White people were not even the only slaveholders in the U.S. during the 19th century. So... If whites must pay reparations, then Africans who sold their own kind into slavery should pay as well.

So the wealth from slavery that helped to make the United States an economic powerhouse... just up and disappeared? Those 400 years of free labor did no benefit for the people of today? Did the US not make much of their wealth with cotton? Hmm lets see the truth:

 

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/04/14/four-eras-slavery-benefit-corporations

 

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By 1840 there were more millionaires along the Mississippi River than throughout the rest of the nation. Cotton was more valuable than all other U.S. commodities combined. In this "great laboratory of American capitalism" slaves were the most valuable property, and that meant big business for the slave traders, even in the North, as the Fugitive Slave Act legitimatized capture and transport to the South.

 

Quote

Cotton drove the textile industry in the northern states. In 1860, New England had over half of the manufacturing operations, and consumed two-thirds of all the cotton used in U.S. mills. Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts called it "a conspiracy of the lords of the loom and the lords of the lash."

And as far as more modern examples, please read them and weep. 

 

United States would NOT be where it is today without slavery. It was the backbone that held the country up, all due to the force labor of black African slaves who never got the chance to enjoy that wealth. 

 

Do black Americans deserve reparations. Yes, and the reasons  why go well beyond just 400 years of free labor (yes, the descendants need to paid for that labor) that created the economic powerhouse known as the United States.

 

Other reasons included:

 

African Americans were economically kept at a disadvantage by unfair wages and practices that help to keep blacks in a semi-slave state after the civil war( Jim Crow Laws, Sharecropping).

The prison system that was originally created to lock black people in a semi-slave state, which we can still see the effects of that today.

The years of legal violence, of which a white person could kill a black person with no consequence in many southern states.  The emerging, but not fully formed KKK , after the civil war,  traveled to place to place harming and killing any black that they saw.

The years upon years of injustices that resulted from those laws.

The Black Wall Street of the time which could have help to secure wealth for thousands of blacks, was destroyed by a race riot in which planes dropped bombs down on the people and buildings below, the only time such a thing occurred on American soil, killing hundreds and leaving others destitute. No one was punished for this.

The many laws that economically help to benefit whites, but were denied to blacks that helped to build white wealth, like the National Housing Act of 1934 and the WWII G. I. Bill.

The government-controlled destruction of black communities, from Nixon's war on drugs to Reagan's CIA funding their illegal activities by selling drugs in black communities, while increasing the prison time for drug offenses of which we can still see the effects of that today.

 

There is no other group in the US that was as systematically disadvantage like African Americans. It was brutal, it was consistent, and it was intentional. I can walk outside and still see the damage of the years of discrimination today.

 

Do you want to know who received reparations for slavery? Over 900 Slave Owners. They were rewarded 300 dollars per slave, an equivalent of $7000 today. Get out of here with that "no one benefited from slavery today" crap. Get out a history book and read.

 

 

 

[Kai99]

On 12/8/2017 at 7:33 PM, AliceAbernathy said:

No. If black people deserve reparations for slavery, then I do too. My Cherokee ancestors may very well have been forced off their land and made to walk the Trail of Tears to other locales.

 

75% of southerners did not own slaves during the United States Civil War.

 

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/27/495627997/u-s-government-to-pay-492-million-to-17-american-indian-tribes

[ThaHoward]

It happened  something similar here a few years ago. I like the government's reply which was something like "it happened hundreds of years ago, and then Norway was itself a colony under Denmark and haven't asked for reperations from them".

[JustanotherTobigirl]

I feel it is a little late for reparations. All the people who should have got them to get a more equal footing are already dead and gone. The damage is already done, and reparations now won't fix it. Reparations are meant to bring about economic equality when within a country, something that giving reparations to all black people would not do. Instead I would rather focus on trying to bring the classes closer together. I would rather we focus our money in making all school systems equal and giving those living below the poverty line a better chance at having a future. However, those people aren't just black. They are black, native american, Asian, Latin, Hispanic, and yes, even white. Every year the gap between the rich and the poor gets even bigger, and no one is talking about it. Helping end class-ism would, in the end, help with racism too. 

 

Yes, racism is still a problem, but this would just increase the amount of racism out there, not lower it. Instead of bridging people, you would tear them farther apart. 

 

If we are talking about ending systematic racism then we need to start with systematic structures, not handing out money to individual people based off of the color of their skin alone (which seems a bit racist to me, getting something only because of the color of your skin). We need, most of all, to start with education. Why are there public schools with such different equipment and education? I've seen the inequality in schools. Why do some of them have tablets for every student, while others have to rely on the same crummy, beat up text book the school used 20 years ago? To me, this is where we start for equality. We equal out school districts and allow students to open and enroll without any limitations. None of this stay in your own district crap. Let parents choose their school without having to move. After all, if the education was truly equal, who would ever leave their own district? 

 

Maybe I have gotten a little off topic, but I feel I needed to say it all for people to understand what I was getting at. 

[Kai99]

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f we are talking about ending systematic racism then we need to start with systematic structures, not handing out money to individual people based off of the color of their skin alone (which seems a bit racist to me, getting something only because of the color of your skin).

 

Reparations aren't given due to skin color. They are given to compensate for the wrongs of the past. Japanese Americans were given $20,000 each due to their internment during World War 2. The interment had a negative mental and psychical effect on the people, not to mention it just being wrong in general. It is reported that France paid more than 6 billion dollars in Holocaust reparations since 1948, and France just recently agreed to pay 11 million dollars to prisoners who were brought to French concentration camps. Reparations isn't just some one-time thing only meant for blacks. Countries all over, including the United States, pay reparations for former crimes.

[Sally]

No one who has said that reparations should be instituted has suggested a plan by which they could be done.      Come on, just how would that be possible?   Details, please, including who, when, how much, where the money would come from, etc.