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walrus

What happened to yahoo sexualswithasexuals forum?

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Elizabeth I

I just took a look walrus, and I get a mesage that the group doesn't exsist. Maybe she closed it or changed the name or something. why don't you email her?

Lizzie

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MaraKarina

Think Robin closed it because it both had technical problems so no mails could get through and as membership dropped, according to yahoo indications, from over 70 to a little over 30 and she felt there may not be a need .... Though I feel that also the membership figures were somewhat faulty.

Wonder if she'll re-open or if someone else will/should do it.

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hdansker

Hi - I have re-established the sexuals with asexuals Yahoo forum. Robin closed the group because she was discouraged about the current lack of posts.

I have a request for al of you forum members:

1) Please join the new Yahoo group "sexuals_with_asexuals" (note the slightly different nameing convention)

2) Those of you who have archeived posts, please send them to me at arf@bharf.com, and I will repost them to the forum.

I hope we haven't lost too much, for so many of the posts were really valuable with information about feelings, etc.

I have the "Booklet" that a forum member made up, and I will post that to the Yahoo group.

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Elizabeth I

Anetta, I wasn't a member of the group. I did attempt to join, but was refused because I'm asexual.

More rejection :(

Maybe there would be more posting if a dialog was permitted instead of being strictly a sexual support group.

My romantic relationships have always been with sexual men, and I'm one of those that believes in compromise, so I was (and am) interested mostly in how folks make things work than anything.

good luck

Lizzie

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hdansker

Hi Elizabeth -

It was a group decision to limit membership to Sexuals involved with Asexuals only. As an Asexual, you have the AVEN forums just for you. Those of us involved with Asexual partners have concerns that we felt were better understood by other Sexuals.

As an Asexual, you would view us with the same lack of comprehension that our SO's do, and it is already hurtful and frustrating enough to deal with that quite personal rejection.

Your interest in our thoughts is perceived as basically voyeuristic, as it is our experience that Asexuals are incapable of comprehending why we want sex...and what our sexuality means to us.

It can be likened two people enjoying wonderful flowers: a person who has no sense of smell, but a wonderful color sense and a blind person with a terrific sense of smell. The lack of understanding arises from the fact that the seeing individual has no idea what it means to smell the flower, i.e. that the blind person finds the beauty in the rich and complex scents of the same flowers that delight the eye of the first beholder.

Our focus is not on "fixing" our Asexual partners, but rather on understanding and healing our relationships to them, if possible.

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Brodertun
Our focus is not on "fixing" our Asexual partners, but rather on understanding and healing our relationships to them, if possible.

How could you possibly make even the slightest bit of progess in understanding and healing relationships with your asexual parteners if you refuse to consider any input/discussion from asexuals?

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Jesh
...as an Asexual, you have the AVEN forums just for you. Those of us involved with Asexual partners have concerns that we felt were better understood by other Sexuals.

This doesn't make much sense to me-- we allow sexuals into AVEN, to post and to share their perspectives, despite the fact that some asexuals feel uncomfortable discussing these things with sexual people.

As an Asexual, you would view us with the same lack of comprehension that our SO's do, and it is already hurtful and frustrating enough to deal with that quite personal rejection.

Again, asexuals often experience the same things from their sexual partners.

Your interest in our thoughts is perceived as basically voyeuristic, as it is our experience that Asexuals are incapable of comprehending why we want sex...and what our sexuality means to us.

So, are you being voyeuristic by visiting AVEN and posting about your asexual SO? Some sexuals seem incapable of understanding why we don't want sex, and what that means to us.

Our focus is not on "fixing" our Asexual partners, but rather on understanding and healing our relationships to them, if possible.

Asexual partners have just as much need for understanding and strong relationships as sexuals do.

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Goonie

:shock: I will have to say that this is one of the few times on AVEN where I have found myself completly speechless and stunned

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141822

Hey Im totally fine with the desire/need to discuss stuff with other sexuals. I agree that some parts of relationships between asexuals and sexuals are hard to understand from an asexual point of view. But to say 'As an Asexual, you would view us with the same lack of comprehension that our SO's do, and it is already hurtful and frustrating enough to deal with that quite personal rejection.' ouch. ouch ouch ouch.

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hdansker
So, are you being voyeuristic by visiting AVEN and posting about your asexual SO? Some sexuals seem incapable of understanding why we don't want sex, and what that means to us

I DON'T post about my Asexual SO. I have tried to find out from the AVEN forums:

1) what defines Asexuality?

2) is my SO Asexual?

3) are there others sexuals in my boat?

Asexuals already know what defines Sexuals...you are bombarded with it daily like the rest of humanity.

You have no doubt if your SO is Sexual

You know from AVEN that there are MANY other Asexuals

I would have no dificulty if there were areas of discussion that Asexuals did not wish to share with Sexuals, but the rules here are that the forums are open to both.

Our forum is not.

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Jesh
Our forum is not.

And that's fine, but please don't pretend that your sexuals-only club is that way for a list of reasons that don't hold up. If you want to play by yourselves, say so.

Also, how are asexual SOs supposed to understand sexuals if you don't talk about your problems and relationships with us openly?

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sonofzeal

If a carnal with an asexy SO posts something about the relationship on AVEN, 80-90% of responses are going to be by asexies, and from an asexy perspective. That creates a vastly different tone than a community full of carnals-with-asexy-SOs. It also changes the contents in a certain way. Here, the carnal would be explaining the issue he has. There, the issue can be assumed common knowledge, freeing them up to unload emotional baggage rather than engage in abstract debate over the nature of love, lust, compromise, and their respective roles in a romantic relationship.

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Derp
:shock: I will have to say that this is one of the few times on AVEN where I have found myself completly speechless and stunned

*seconds* :shock:

Though, something tells me that whatever it is they talk about, we'd just as soon not see anyway...

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hdansker
Though, something tells me that whatever it is they talk about, we'd just as soon not see anyway...

And here comes the attack!

No unkind things were said about Asexuals, but our desire to speak about an experience that you do not share was still met with distain and hostility.

You give the PERFECT example of why the group is closed to Asexuals. We are looking for constructive input from those who share our situation, your comment was unfounded and distinctly not helpful...and clearly not meant to be.

You should be ashamed of resorting to the old ad hominem attack, you know, when you can't attack the position, attack the person. It shows a significant poverty of intellect.

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Goonie

I can see both sides of the argument and the reason why you would want a sexual only membership...

but I think there probably were better ways than saying it how you did. for an example see sonofzeals post. To be perfectly honest, your construct (emphasis added)

It was a group decision to limit membership to Sexuals involved with Asexuals only. As an Asexual, you have the AVEN forums just for you. Those of us involved with Asexual partners have concerns that we felt were better understood by other Sexuals.

As an Asexual, you would view us with the same lack of comprehension that our SO's do, and it is already hurtful and frustrating enough to deal with that quite personal rejection.

Your interest in our thoughts is perceived as basically voyeuristic, as it is our experience that Asexuals are incapable of comprehending why we want sex...and what our sexuality means to us.

it did come across as harsh -- especially where you purpose of your group is understanding and healing relationships. I highly doubt Mac was attacking you.

so now.. if we are all in this same boat together... why don't we attempt to help each other instead of just attacking each other? A's can help sexuals by trying to explain why they work the way they do.. and sexuals can help A's the same way. And, hey, if the first way doesn't work... keep trying

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deladangerous
You give the PERFECT example of why the group is closed to Asexuals. We are looking for constructive input from those who share our situation, your comment was unfounded and distinctly not helpful...and clearly not meant to be.

Understood, although I don't see what she said as being quite as much an "attack" as you seem to have. Either way, hers were the words of one person. Do all asexuals share the same mindset as the one whom you have taken offense to? It would be close-minded to say so, I feel.

It is in the same way that we allow sexuals to post and share their experiences on this asexual community (no, it is not "just" for us, if you may have noticed). Some sexuals are not as understanding as others. We still allow anyone here. Everyone can contribute in some way, and the more a difference there is in people's points of view, the better.

It seems to be that you are turning people away from your community--regardless of their attitudes, personality, and intellect-- as soon as you find out that they are asexual. I don't really find that fair. Some of those people who you have turned away so far, I can guarantee you, would offer valuable input without pitching insults or acting out whatever sort of negative quality you instantly presume us all to have. If anything, by denying those people access, you shoot yourselves in your collective feet.

You should be ashamed of resorting to the old ad hominem attack, you know, when you can't attack the position, attack the person. It shows a significant poverty of intellect.

If I may say.. Of all the problems MacAttack may or may not have, from what I have read at least, "poverty of intellect" does not seem to be very high on the list. I mean you no offense, but I what I take from your reaction is that not only asexuals are capable of knee-jerk reactions and unmerited insults.

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hdansker
To be perfectly honest, your construct (emphasis added)

(snip) it did come across as harsh -- especially where you purpose of your group is understanding and healing relationships. I highly doubt Mac was attacking you.

Our group is for the healing of our personal interpersonal relationships, not relationships with Asexuals in general. If I was NOT in a relationship with an Asexual that would be a sexual relationship with another Sexual, I could would care less.

I view Asexuality as being as perfectly valid as being straight or gay or gender queer. I am sure that I have Asexual friends,family and neighbors, and that's fine with me.

Mac's comment:

Though, something tells me that whatever it is they talk about, we'd just as soon not see anyway...

is at heart a snide one. It clearly implies that what Sexuals have to say is something s/he considers distasteful...otherwise why would s/he

just as soon not see anyway...

My point is that we are NOT all in this boat together. You are an Asexual who may or may not be in a relationship with a Sexual. You are aware enough of your own sexual nature that I would fervently hope you would be totally honest from the very beginning of a relationship that might be construed by the Sexual (should that be the object of your emotional desire) as going to be of a sexual nature, that a typical sexual relationship was not going to happen.

I am a Sexual who unknowingly married an Asexual, and after years of trying to figure out what the hell was going on, now get it. The problem is that after so many years, we have family ties that are important to us both, a joint economy that secures our not too distant retirement, and a terriffic friendship that cannot be discarded.

My SO asked me if I had known his true nature before we married, if I would have married him, and I answered as honestly as I could - no. He would have been my very dearest friend, but not more.

He KNEW going in that this was his nature, and that it would be a problem, but he was not honest enough to tell me. He wanted the romantic love, the attachment and affection of a permanent relationship - he never considered the impacts on me, or my mental and physical health.

Same boat? We're not even on the same ocean.

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Derp

OK, Goonie's right.. I didn't mean to attack you. I can't attack a person I know nothing about. The position, however, is something we know all too well, and it does put us on the defensive sometimes, I'm afraid. You are quite right that my comment wasn't meant to be helpful. :wink: I'll try and make some that are:

No unkind things were said about Asexuals, but our desire to speak about an experience that you do not share was still met with distain and hostility.

*points up at Elizabeth's post* Actually, it looks to me as though it was initially met with curiosity. We freakin' LOVE getting people here who are curious about us, and don't just want to complain about or "fix" us. People like that are the ones who help us open dialogues so that we CAN understand each other. It's not like we're missing a piece of our brains or anything.. if there's any "lack of comprehension" going on, it's because there aren't enough of those dialogues yet. So, if an asexual wants to start one with you, why would you see that as voyeuristic? :? Isn't that something you should be doing with your partners anyway?

You give the PERFECT example of why the group is closed to Asexuals.

Well, first of all, you don't need to worry about me trying to join the group, because I'm involved with another asexual. :wink: Second, the group was closed before I made my comment. So, there must have been lots of other examples prior to that. Did the group base this decision on posts they've seen on this board? If so, I imagine that most of the offending posters would not try to join your group either. It would probably just be people who are involved with sexuals and wanted to try and see things from your perspective.

Mac's comment:
Though, something tells me that whatever it is they talk about, we'd just as soon not see anyway...

is at heart a snide one. It clearly implies that what Sexuals have to say is something s/he considers distasteful...otherwise why would s/he

just as soon not see anyway...

Sorry, I had no intention of implying that. I would not assume that you would have something bad to say about us just because you're a sexual, it was the secrecy of this board that aroused suspicion. I assumed that if you didn't want us to see it, it must be something we wouldn't want to see. By all means, please correct me if I'm wrong about that...

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with your SO, but in your case specifically, that sounds like more of an issue with openness and honesty than about asexuality. You're right that he should have told you about that sooner, but maybe he didn't know how. Most of us have gone our whole lives without having a word for what we are. I don't know what else to say about that though, it's between you and him. Best of luck.

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hdansker
I would not assume that you would have something bad to say about us just because you're a sexual, it was the secrecy of this board that aroused suspicion. I assumed that if you didn't want us to see it, it must be something we wouldn't want to see. By all means, please correct me if I'm wrong about that...

Thank you. I have no beef with Asexuals in general. After all, what concern is someone's private sexual activity/orientation of mine? It becomes my concern only when it is made my concern in the context of a personal relationship.

I must reiterate, the Yahoo group is NOT secret, it is private. The members feel that there are some thoughts best shared with those who share their experiences.

Many Sexuals in relationships with people they now understand to be Asexual are traumatized. My situation, for example, is typical in our group. We are all trying to come to grips with our situations.

Those Sexuals who wish to have a dialog with Asexuals, such as I am doing, have the opportunity to do so here.

I wonder if, in fact, there aren't Asexuals who are lurkers only here, because they do not want their feelings and inner life exposed to Sexuals? I suspect an Asexuals only group might be a good idea. There may not be large numbers of interested people, but there are likely enough that it would succeed.

Each person's comfort level about who they reveal themselves to is different. Our group members are most comfortable with others like themselves, and we ask only that our need for privacy be respected.

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MaraKarina
Our focus is not on "fixing" our Asexual partners, but rather on understanding and healing our relationships to them, if possible.

How could you possibly make even the slightest bit of progess in understanding and healing relationships with your asexual parteners if you refuse to consider any input/discussion from asexuals?

Where you have a partner who's refusing 100% to change the situation, there's nothing you can do, regardless of how much you talk about it; it's just a matter of trying to cope best with the situation.

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MaraKarina

I was shocked to read the comments in this thread!

For years my need for sex and frustration with the situation has been questioned by my husband. As have been the many affects I have been and still am suffering from. I need a place to cope with that. And that place MUST be a place free from questioning.

The support group is not about understanding each other. Maybe that's not even possible. Maybe we are restricted to not understanding but just to accept as the other person says it is so.

I've written a reply to Sonofzeal in another thread and copied it here. Maybe it helps to understand why the support group must be, at least at this stage, for people suffering from the situation.

I would like to add that I've experienced it at home, and I have a feeling many sexuals with asexuals have the same experience, that it is NOT two people working out an agreement, but that it is the asexual who decides 100% how much he/she wants to give in sex, touch, affection, and the sexual trying to cope with that, without any possible influence/choice other than to have an affair or leave the partnership/marriage altogether.

It's not my intent to hurt any asexual by these clear words and if I did nontheless please accept my apologies. My attempt is simply to get across the message that it's a damn nightmare to live such a life for years. And to this date I'm not sure whether it's something which can work in the long run (I've been in this situation for approx. 15 years, the last 8 without sex at all), as there no compromise, just a brickwall on the side of my asexual husband, or is destined to fail eventually.

Sonofzeal,

The decision not to accept asexuals on the group has been made by the members of the previous group, and as I am one of the members who was against it, I give you my reasons.

I'm a sexual and married to an asexual, that is a man who appeared to be highly sexual for the first year, then changed and used all sorts of excuses, and only mentioned that I could forget about sex with him for the rest of my life, after we were married with several financial commitments which, had we separated, apart from the nightmare the emotional consequences would have caused, would have created major problems.

I am split between loving this man, not wanting to leave him on one hand and feeling cheated on the other. But this is just background information, but this in itself is not the reason.

The reason why I would not want asexual members in the group is that I've again and again noticed from posts on this web site and from numerous discussions with my husband, that there's a complete lack of understanding for the situation life with an asexual causes for the sexual.

A close relationship with a person I love is great, but for me there IS a difference between such a relationship and one which also includes sex. And that difference does not mean I crave sex for the sake of sex, it is a very emotional thing, and to me sex only belongs into an excellent close, committed relationship.

The current sexless situation was imposed on me, no discussion, agreement, nothing. It had its affects on me - affects which I found most other persons in a similar situation show over time. I’ve learnt to cope with some of them and continue to struggle with others.

- overweight

- depression (some having to take drugs for that!)

- loss of self-esteem

- change of dress (making onself unattractive, hiding the body, dull colours, i.e. similar to persons who suffered sexual abuse)

- at times hopelessness and utmost despair

Over the years I again and again - and in vain - tried to explain to my husband what this life does to me. For him it’s just "putting too much of an emphasis on sex". He simply doesn't understand it just as I don't understand it that he's perfectly ok without sex. I assume that the life he imposes on me - ok I could run, but then life is not that easy there are a few more aspects so overall that wouldn't be THE solution - is comparable to how my husband would perceive a life where sex would be imposed on him twice every day.

And the support group is a place where I like people to simply understand how I feel. I do not want to explain it. And I do not want to discuss why I feel as I do or why I am just tired of "understanding my asexual". Because I don't, just like he doesn't understand me. It's a matter of just accepting it because the other person says so.

The support group is a place which I need to cope with my life with an asexual. Where I can discuss and exchange practical ways of how to cope with the problems it creates for me, where I can just find the knowledge that I am perfectly normal in my reactions in this situation and not some nymphomaniac. That it’s not my “sex is everything” attitude which chauses the problem (because then I could just fine someone else for sex) but rather my need to have sex with my soulmate only.

Please just accept that we need a place just for ourselves to deal with this matter and question it as little as you want sexuals to constantly question why you are not in need of more sex.

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MaraKarina

Thought of just one more thing:

Would I have married my husband had I known about the situation? Probably not!

I've lost my parents when I was 13 and have younger brothers and sisters for whose care I was held responsible even though relatives took us in and in retrospect think that that was a very unfortunate situation. But I did not nearly feel as frustrated and helpless as I do in my marriage with an asexual

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Brodertun

You do know that sonofzeal is a sexual who joined Aven because of an asexual girlfriend right? In fact if you read his posts he was one of the people defending your groups decision to exclude asexuals.

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Derp
Thought of just one more thing:

Would I have married my husband had I known about the situation? Probably not!

I've lost my parents when I was 13 and have younger brothers and sisters for whose care I was held responsible even though relatives took us in and in retrospect think that that was a very unfortunate situation. But I did not nearly feel as frustrated and helpless as I do in my marriage with an asexual

OK, now this is an example of what I meant by comments that put us on the defensive, and which we might not want to see. No offense, but why would you feel it necessary to tell us that here on our forum? I really couldn't care less if you want to express these sentiments in private in your support group, but can you see how we might find statements like this to be insulting? I'm not trying to be rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious...

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Amcan
I suspect an Asexuals only group might be a good idea. There may not be large numbers of interested people' date=' but there are likely enough that it would succeed.[/quote']

There is a Yahoo group called Haven for the Human Amoeba which was about before AVEN. However it does welcome sexuals as well. As it says:

Welcome to Yahoo's oldest club for asexual people and their friends.

Is it open to all and all can view their messages. It would seem some married sexuals do use the group for support.

The link can be found here

Interestingly as asexualoty was so new as well as AVEN being formed there are other asexuality websites split from the original Yahoo! group. These include the non-libdioists.

Their website can be found Here

There are also the anti-sexuals. You can find them:

Here

In fact AVEN is the most high profile and most moderate asexual website you are likely to find. Here we encourage sexuals to post and express their views. You would not find this to the case with other asexual sites.

Some other asexuals websites might tell you there is no hope in your marriage at all. We're not like that here we want to work toward understanding. But that takes all of us working together.

We're here to foster understanding and sharing of viewpoints and even here we have anti-sexuals posting right along with moderate asexuals and sexuals. This should be a good thing as long as well remember one thing - mutal respect.

[/url]

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sonofzeal

I am thoroughly confused by this whole thing.

MaraKarina, it sounds like you're trying to offer a rebutal to something I said. I can't for the life of me figure out what though, since I do agree (and have stated in this thread) that I think a community like you're describing is a good thing.

Beyond that... I could cut the passive-aggressiveness in this thread with a knife. That goes for pretty much every single person who's posted here (with a couple notable exceptions). Seriously, what's the problem guys? The makers of "sexuals_with_asexuals" are perfectly within their rights to limit membership to oh, I dunno, sexuals who are with asexuals. On the other hand, in the ensuing debate, I don't think either side is above reproach. There's been far too many stupid accusations thrown around here already, by both sides.

Can I request that this thread be locked and/or split to Hot Box?

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Elizabeth I

Gosh I'm sorry folks. It wasn't my intention to start any Poo flinging here.

Someone said that the group had been closed because there wasn't much posting going on, and I was willing to contribute if the group was willing to have me.

Sok... it's your ball.

I was a wee bit insulted by the "voyeristic" comment though. I sure hope it wasn't intentional.

I identify as asexual because it's where I feel most comfortable. I'm sure there are asexuals who don't think I belong here either...but thay accept me ...and that feels GOOD.

But as I mentioned, I am a romantic, and I have had several romantic relationships in my 54 years. My partners have always been sexual men. I don't think any would say they suffered because of my asexuality.

One of the things I frequently see written by heartbroken sexual women refers to lying in bed wondering if tonight they were going to be touched....

Wanting to be loved and cuddled and touched is a desire I have in common with sexuals I guess. I think what turned me around was the brazen, non-loving sex-saturated sexual revolution.

It's also interesting that I have suffered all the same humiliations mentioned by some of the sexual women in this thread, when I had a partner who felt that sex was an obligation.

I guess a good place to open the dialog I was considering isn't so much about whether you are sexual or asexual, but what is actually sex (as opposed to loving affection).

So that's all I'll bother you with now. You don't know me, and you have made it pretty clear that you dont want to.

Once Again....Good Luck

Lizzie

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sonofzeal

Elizabeth I, I should probably say that in my eyes, you've been one of the more mature people in this thread, one of the "notable exceptions" I mentioned. The feces-fight would have happened whether or not you'd said anything.

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deladangerous
The makers of "sexuals_with_asexuals" are perfectly within their rights to limit membership to oh, I dunno, sexuals who are with asexuals.

They made it, they can do whatever they want, but that doesn't make it fair. I had zero interest in joining the group, but my main problem with it is this attitude

Same boat? We're not even on the same ocean.

Which in turn makes people feel like this

You don't know me, and you have made it pretty clear that you dont want to.

..Including myself. But... If you want your segregation that badly, I guess this means it's yours after all.

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