Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

alibali

This may explain why asexuals have sex

Recommended Posts

Snaonderneath a Mistlecone

Peacock PUAs?

 

Edit: fuck yeah new page with no quote to put the content in context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GLRDT
12 hours ago, float on said:

compromise isn't doing things you hate, compromise is finding a way to enjoy participating in the passion your partner has.

Thank you for your wisdom and whole post. I know these things but it's good to read it outright like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Homer
15 hours ago, vega57 said:

I can't begin to tell you how often *I* believe this has happened and continues to happen.  The message becomes, "Everyone "SHOULD" have sex, whether they want it or not, and if they don't, there's something "wrong" with them."  Which, of course, is nonsense. 

I am now convinced that it's either cultural or being oversensitive. Never in my 35 years on this planet has anyone told me that I should have sex, even if I didn't want it, or that there's something wrong with me because I don't.

 

Have some people been befuddled by the fact that I don't give a damn about sex? Yes. Have some people told me that I "miss out" on something? Yes. Yet that's neither "pressure" from "society" nor anything. It's people voicing their opinion, just as I voice mine, which is "meh, I'd rather watch a match".

 

I can totally see why the topic of sex must stick out to people who aren't interested in it. I'd feel the same if 99% of people were interested in Game of Thrones and I just stand here, shrugging. There are so many stories on here that read "Oh no, my friends discussed something sexual the other day, they're clearly obsessed, I can't relate, abort conversation, abort abort!" A lot of people on here seem to view average, completely normal - and yes, healthy - human behavior as something totally crazy. Which is crazy in itself. The real fail here is the lack of knowledge what average human sexuality consists of and looks like. Oh and while I am at "healthy" again. Something being healthy doesn't automatically mean that not having that something is unhealthy. I'm sure everyone of you has some kind of food they despise; something that might contain tons of vitamins and other stuff. You don't eat it, but you're still here, reading this.

 

I had another point related to this which I forgot by now :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
1 hour ago, GLRDT said:

Thank you for your wisdom and whole post. I know these things but it's good to read it outright like that.

:blush: aw thanks for letting me know I was helpful :D I'm glad it was meaningful :D

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On

@Homer  sorta agree but really there's something important to know, the one thing I notice is,

 

that things can feel pressuring even tho they aren't meant it that way.

 

 

often in recent years, my family just wants to help me out, and they say things thinking it good advice, and then get confused and weird when I don't follow it. and that's pressuring!

 

but, they mean it because they care about me, they want to be helpful, they'd feel useless to see me in difficulty and yet they're unable to help. the last thing they'd want would be to be intrusive or pressuring, and it is FAR from their intention when they do end up giving me pressure. but yet, I feel pressured.

 

 

there is no pressure in my mom telling me she'll be happy to cook burgers for me so I don't gotta go to BK. But what results from her saying it so often, is me feeling 1) expensive 2) irresponsible 3) unsocial and I feel so pressured and can't stand that she says it all the time.

 

but what can I do? if I tell her to stfu she feels like I don't care about her. she gets depressed if I'm not careful, because in living here with her she sees me all the time and sees some of the struggles I go through and feels as my mother - she wants to be there for me. and when she cannot,...  y'know. it's depressing, disappointing, makes her feel useless or unwanted.

 

neither of us pressure the other or actually feel such ways. but, yet, each of us feels pressured or disapproved of. it IS real, even tho it's not the intended result, even tho there isn't really pressuring or disdain for each other, there also is.

 

 

 

does this make sense? it's there by being felt, even tho it isn't there by any actual source of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Homer

It's your choice what to make of it.

 

Now I don't know what's going on in your family, but in general, you can take whatever is said as an opinion, as some kind of advice, as an idea... or as people putting pressure on you. This is nothing they have any influence on (assuming they don't know about your feelings or they refuse to adjust their behaviour). My Grandma recently told me that she'd love me to find someone, for what must have been the 13,725th time. (Yeah no, not gonna happen.) Judging by what was written in this thread, that could be read as "pressure". Yet it's just her expressing a wish, even though it can be annoying at times. A wish, that's it. It's not like she said "You better stick a ring on someone's finger or else". That would be pressure.

 

It's the recipient's choice really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57
35 minutes ago, Homer said:

I am now convinced that it's either cultural or being oversensitive. Never in my 35 years on this planet has anyone told me that I should have sex, even if I didn't want it, or that there's something wrong with me because I don't.

That's surprising.  I have certainly heard/read this 'message' quite a bit.  I'm a member of several other forums besides AVEN, and I 'haunt' other forums.  If a member comes on the board complaining about his or her partner's lack of interest in sex, they usually get replies from an average of about 25 members, all claiming that the member's spouse "should" be having sex.  Even if that person isn't interested, he or she should 'push' him or herself to have sex so he or she becomes interested again.  If the partner isn't interested in sex, there must be something 'wrong' with him or her, and that member is often encouraged to drag the uninterested partner to a doctor/counselor/sex therapist/psychiatrist, etc. 

 

Quote

I can totally see why the topic of sex must stick out to people who aren't interested in it. I'd feel the same if 99% of people were interested in Game of Thrones and I just stand here, shrugging. There are so many stories on here that read "Oh no, my friends discussed something sexual the other day, they're clearly obsessed, I can't relate, abort conversation, abort abort!" A lot of people on here seem to view average, completely normal - and yes, healthy - human behavior as something totally crazy. Which is crazy in itself.  The real fail here is the lack of knowledge what average human sexuality consists of and looks like. Oh and while I am at "healthy" again. Something being healthy doesn't automatically mean that not having that something is unhealthy. I'm sure everyone of you has some kind of food they despise; something that might contain tons of vitamins and other stuff. You don't eat it, but you're still here, reading this.

Yes, and there are many who understand this as applied to everything else except sex.  When it comes to sex, it's "different". 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
vega57
11 minutes ago, Homer said:

It's not like she said "You better stick a ring on someone's finger or else". That would be pressure.

"You'd better have sex with me, or else"...

 

I'll end the relationship

I'll cheat

I'll stop giving you money

I'll divorce you

I'll tell everyone how 'crazy' you are

I'll drag you to see a shrink/sex therapist/psychiatrist

 

And that kind of pressure doesn't only come from a partner:

 

"You'd better start having sex with him or he'll leave you/cheat on you/divorce you/take you to see a shrink/stop paying for your tuition for your education, etc.. 

 

Can't tell you how many countless women have had sex with their partner out of fear of their male partner leaving, which, as it turns out, is a very real fear. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
alibali

Long before I identified as ace one of my "friends" told me that men need sex so I shouldn't be surprised if my ex cheated/left me. Implies that men deserve it and that women should give in whether they like it or not.  It is pressure to conform regardless. It wasn't until another friend made me aware that women enjoyed sex for its own sake that I realised I had always been ace. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
44 minutes ago, Homer said:

you can take whatever is said as an opinion, as some kind of advice, as an idea... or as people putting pressure on you

yes. both interpretations are possible, valid, meaningful interpretations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68
Quote

  When it comes to sex, it's "different". 

... almost as though sex was hardwired into most people like the future of the species relies on people having sex. Yes, sex is different, quite apart from the innate biological urge. All those other things can be done with other people. When one partner says they're no longer willing to have sex, it means the other can't either - unless they leave. Hence the 'leave' advice on those forums. And mental health issues leading to not wanting sex simply are more common than asexuality, so as an alternative to leaving, they're worth looking at as a way to a solution. The non sexual person would only have to be 'dragged' if their attitude was 'tough'. In itself that attitude is dismissing their partner's needs, which is not very loving.

 

If one of those forums where you lurk Vega is DeadBedrooms, then you'll know that for a start, about 40pc of the posters are women, so let's not make it about patriarchal oppression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
34 minutes ago, vega57 said:

"You'd better have sex with me, or else"...

 

I'll end the relationship

I'll cheat

I'll stop giving you money

I'll divorce you

I'll tell everyone how 'crazy' you are

I'll drag you to see a shrink/sex therapist/psychiatrist

 

And that kind of pressure doesn't only come from a partner:

 

"You'd better start having sex with him or he'll leave you/cheat on you/divorce you/take you to see a shrink/stop paying for your tuition for your education, etc.. 

 

Can't tell you how many countless women have had sex with their partner out of fear of their male partner leaving, which, as it turns out, is a very real fear. 

oops, f me, I've said something like this before. I advised someone in a mixed relationship that it might fail if both parties are unwilling to compromise. I've even said something along that line in this thread.

 

it's weird... because it could be tru. it's important to recognize the health in the freedom to walk away when unwilling to compromise - that the sexual or ace can validly break up for lack of respected needs, lack of security or trust. lack of comfort or satisfaction. or maybe not the extreme but to voice their frustration fairly. or whatever it means to not feel able to accept an expected boundary, or duty.

 

 

but if you nod towards that in the wrong way, instead the resulting message is, pressure. "have sex or else."

 

 

and even if it may be true on average, it won't be true for every relationship for every individual. it's a generalization being applied as a universal, and that can be harmful. I gotta be more careful about how I encourage the importance of each partner preserving their boundaries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On

if a message is important to deliver, but it isn't being received, that is a case when it's worth the effort of nitpicking the language to a fairer expression.

 

in fact finding the subtlety of the language could reveal a significant new understanding of the subject matter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

I can see how the message looks like that, but its generally not so much a threat as the sexual person saying 'the lack of sex is making me so unhappy I can't bear to continue in this relationship. Asexuals finish relationships for the flipside of that reason, they're unhappy too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tarfeather
2 hours ago, Homer said:

I am now convinced that it's either cultural or being oversensitive. Never in my 35 years on this planet has anyone told me that I should have sex, even if I didn't want it, or that there's something wrong with me because I don't.

Particularly as a male, some will assume that you're lying, or that something is seriously wrong with you if you're not. That's how deeply the stereotype that males are sex crazed beasts has been driven into some people's minds. The fact that nobody has told you something like this to your face, does not necessarily mean nobody has thought this of you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

So someone having an unspoken opinion is now pressure? Come on...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MrDane
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I can see how the message looks like that, but its generally not so much a threat as the sexual person saying 'the lack of sex is making me so unhappy I can't bear to continue in this relationship. Asexuals finish relationships for the flipside of that reason, they're unhappy too.

...or "the lack of sex, takes a toll on me, so large that I have a difficulty receiving/experiencing enjoyment on other levels. It feels like a depression, combined with feeling lonely and friendzoned."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I can see how the message looks like that, but its generally not so much a threat as the sexual person saying 'the lack of sex is making me so unhappy I can't bear to continue in this relationship. Asexuals finish relationships for the flipside of that reason, they're unhappy too.

agreed

 

but as someone who literally pushed myself until I hurt myself, not knowing that there are alternative options to offering my body when I don't feel up to it results in nonverbal pressure existing. even if it's my fault I feel the pressure, it's silly to expect everyone to universally know that they are valid to be dissatisfied with a relationship.

 

and it is never so simple to just say that either - i dunno what I'm saying... do you know what I'm trying to say lol.

 

something about small things slipping under the radar but creating large emotional stress, and ed/vis dialogues not covering such things, such that generalized language gets used which certainly looks true and in the standard sense is true, but doesn't account for the possibility that something subtle slipped under the radar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So someone having an unspoken opinion is now pressure? Come on...

pressure isn't just the hammer hitting the nail, it is also the wood perceiving the force of a blow.

 

 

so no, unspoken things aren't pressure. but then there's a nother way pressure can be there anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tarfeather
45 minutes ago, float on said:

oops, f me, I've said something like this before. I advised someone in a mixed relationship that it might fail if both parties are unwilling to compromise. I've even said something along that line in this thread.

 

it's weird... because it could be tru. it's important to recognize the health in the freedom to walk away when unwilling to compromise - that the sexual or ace can validly break up for lack of respected needs, lack of security or trust. lack of comfort or satisfaction. or maybe not the extreme but to voice their frustration fairly. or whatever it means to not feel able to accept an expected boundary, or duty.

 

 

but if you nod towards that in the wrong way, instead the resulting message is, pressure. "have sex or else."

 

 

and even if it may be true on average, it won't be true for every relationship for every individual. it's a generalization being applied as a universal, and that can be harmful. I gotta be more careful about how I encourage the importance of each partner preserving their boundaries.

Can you explain this, please? What do you mean by "nodding towards that in the wrong way"? Isn't stating that if you do not meet a certain need of your partner, that partner will be more likely to feel unhappy in the relationship and break up, simply a truthful assertion?

 

2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So someone having an unspoken opinion is now pressure? Come on...

No, it's not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

But there isn't a blow to perceive. The wood just thinks the hammer is thinking about a blow. There's nothing the hammer can do about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On

I got cut off somehow in bad connection. accidently deleted text instead of copying it.

 

 

 

 

 

it's true of course that it's unfair for people to go "that asshole pressured me" when nothing actually was said or even intend! but it's also true that sometimes a person feels anxious about a tense situation for them, and feel pressured despite a lack of any direct message.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But there isn't a blow to perceive. The wood just thinks the hammer is thinking about a blow. There's nothing the hammer can do about that.

ok wait I figured out the complete analogy.

 

sometimes pressure is a hammer striking a nail, and sometimes pressure is a nail dug into the wood. 

 

and some hammer sits nearby. but was that the hammer that struck the nail in originally? the nail is just sitting there from before, continuing to mark a wound in the wood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Valentine18

Unspoken opinions can definitely cause pressure.  My husband does not want to have any sexual contact with me, but he knows that I am a very sexual person and am quite miserable with his lack of desire.  He states that he always feels under pressure from me, even though I learned long ago not to even try-that just leads to rejection and makes me feel like crap.  So just the fact that he knows I have needs and desires he's not meeting causes him to feel pressure from me.   I think he knows I will eventually leave if he doesn't meet my needs, but he just can't make himself want something he doesn't want.  And he is correct that I will eventually leave, of that I have no doubt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
10 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

Can you explain this, please? What do you mean by "nodding towards that in the wrong way"? Isn't stating that if you do not meet a certain need of your partner, that partner will be more likely to feel unhappy in the relationship and break up, simply a truthful assertion?

hm, *thinks*

 

does it help if I start with the extremes - in one side you have, "have sex with me or I will hurt you" on the other you have "I feel unlovable because the person who matters the most to me isn't able to find be attractive and I don't know what to do please help me to understand to believe that you love me"

 

not that that second example is a very good example lol! hopefully it is OK...

 

 

and somewhere in between those two is what really is happening. but the one party interprets it as pressure, and the other as expressiveness.

 

it is a matter of interpretation, and it's both valid either way, despite both ways not logically being possible to both be true.

 

The person feeling pressured doesn't mean the other pressured them.

But the person feeling honest and expressive and fair doesn't mean the intended message was actually delivered.

but both view are valid - the one feels intruded upon, the other feels earnest and fair. it's a contradiction but both impressions are valid and true anyway.

 

 

 

 

it is kind of like there are 22. and the one thinks "feet" while the other thinks "meters"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tarfeather
52 minutes ago, float on said:

but as someone who literally pushed myself until I hurt myself, not knowing that there are alternative options to offering my body when I don't feel up to it results in nonverbal pressure existing. even if it's my fault I feel the pressure, it's silly to expect everyone to universally know that they are valid to be dissatisfied with a relationship.

That your partner was willing to let you hurt yourself like that, speaks volumes in itself. This sounds like a completely different scenario from two people acknowledging that their relationship might not work out due to sexual incompatibility.

 

29 minutes ago, float on said:

hm, *thinks*

 

does it help if I start with the extremes - in one side you have, "have sex with me or I will hurt you" on the other you have "I feel unlovable because the person who matters the most to me isn't able to find be attractive and I don't know what to do please help me to understand to believe that you love me"

 

not that that second example is a very good example lol! hopefully it is OK...

 

 

and somewhere in between those two is what really is happening. but the one party interprets it as pressure, and the other as expressiveness.

 

it is a matter of interpretation, and it's both valid either way, despite both ways not logically being possible to both be true.

 

The person feeling pressured doesn't mean the other pressured them.

But the person feeling honest and expressive and fair doesn't mean the intended message was actually delivered.

but both view are valid - the one feels intruded upon, the other feels earnest and fair. it's a contradiction but both impressions are valid and true anyway.

 

 

 

 

it is kind of like there are 22. and the one thinks "feet" while the other thinks "meters"

I disagree with you. I think both views are mistaken. To think that expressing your needs does not put pressure on your partner is mistaken. To think that your partner is putting pressure on you out of malice is also mistaken. In reality, the sexual needs of one partner put pressure on the other, and this is nobody's fault. Neither that the needs exist, nor that they can not be met. A couple would not try to assign blame, but rather acknowledge the difficulty of the situation and each try their best to find happiness for both in the relationship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
1 minute ago, Tarfeather said:

 

 

 I think both views are mistaken. 

:o blow my mind more lol.

 

they're definitely both "valid" and "true" (relatively) I stand by that.

 

but omg you're right - they're both incomplete of it! that explains it better IMO, to say "both mistaken"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Homer
1 hour ago, float on said:

so no, unspoken things aren't pressure. but then there's a nother way pressure can be there anyway.

This is caused by the one feeling the pressure and the one feeling the pressure alone. The mechanics are the same as in "I am offended". What if I "felt pressured" by what I just quoted from your post? Does that make it actual pressure you should be sorry for or whatever? Am I right by default just because I claim to "be pressured"? I strongly disagree with that.

 

 

3 hours ago, vega57 said:

"You'd better start having sex with him or he'll leave you/cheat on you/divorce you/take you to see a shrink/stop paying for your tuition for your education, etc.. 

That's someone voicing an opinion (and a stupid one at that - but that, in turn, is my personal opinion :D). It's an assumption about the other person's actions, nothing more. I'd consider it as pressure if someone said "You better have sex with him or I'll make him leave you." (couldn't think of a better sentence, sorry)

 

 

2 hours ago, alibali said:

Long before I identified as ace one of my "friends" told me that men need sex so I shouldn't be surprised if my ex cheated/left me. Implies that men deserve it and that women should give in whether they like it or not.

Okay, "men need sex" is a broad claim. Still, the vast majority of people are sexual and sex is vital for them to have a happy relationship. Like it or not, said person has a point. There are quite a few stories on here which prove just that. Those implications are your own thoughts; I can't read any of those in what this person said.

 

 

3 hours ago, vega57 said:

"You'd better have sex with me, or else"...

 

I'll end the relationship

I'll cheat

I'll stop giving you money

I'll divorce you

I'll tell everyone how 'crazy' you are

I'll drag you to see a shrink/sex therapist/psychiatrist

Yes, that's pressure, but it's also an easy decision at this point. Instant game over.

 

 

1 hour ago, Valentine18 said:

Unspoken opinions can definitely cause pressure.  My husband does not want to have any sexual contact with me, but he knows that I am a very sexual person and am quite miserable with his lack of desire.  He states that he always feels under pressure from me, even though I learned long ago not to even try-that just leads to rejection and makes me feel like crap.  So just the fact that he knows I have needs and desires he's not meeting causes him to feel pressure from me.   I think he knows I will eventually leave if he doesn't meet my needs, but he just can't make himself want something he doesn't want.  And he is correct that I will eventually leave, of that I have no doubt.

(1) So he states (or stated) that he feels under pressure. How is that an unspoken opinion?

(2) Why do you remain in this relationship if you know that you'll end it anyway, sooner or later? (That's more of a general question. Why do some people do that?)

 

 

1 hour ago, Tarfeather said:

Particularly as a male, some will assume that you're lying, or that something is seriously wrong with you if you're not.

In what way is this my problem? Am I supposed to care about other people's possible assumptions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
8 minutes ago, Homer said:

This is caused by the one feeling the pressure and the one feeling the pressure alone. The mechanics are the same as in "I am offended". What if I "felt pressured" by what I just quoted from your post? Does that make it actual pressure you should be sorry for or whatever? Am I right by default just because I claim to "be pressured"? I strongly disagree with that.

 

yes, by quoting you I provide a reason that you might feel pressured. Whether or not I knew this was what I was doing, or intended to pressure you, the nature of the juxtoposition of my quoting something, typing something, and that something having your name upon it, and giving you a notification, can be interpreted as pressure. in fact, many folk will feel some manner of expectation or judgement or some kind of pressure from being quoted. some folk find it very tilting in fact, others find it affirming, and others find it neutral or irrelevant or completely pressure-free.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Float On
11 minutes ago, Homer said:

(2) Why do you remain in this relationship if you know that you'll end it anyway, sooner or later?

:unsure: 

 

its.. theres more to a relationship than whether or not "it lasts til the end"

 

and it does in fact last till its end... and the more it lasts, there's something from it that you get.

 

prolonging its duration is a decision some prefer over cutting it off quickly.

 

sometimes it isn't preference tho, but fear, or something, feeling locked into it, committed.

 

I doubt these would be the only possible reasons someone won't end it right away.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...