Sexual Wife/Asexual Husband - Truce!

[ryn2]

There’s could also be a bit of differing experience involved.  Someone mentioned caffeine up the thread a ways...  some people consume caffeine and primarily experience a pleasant rush, improved alertness and concentration, etc., on top of whatever they enjoy about the morning coffee/tea ritual.  Others consume caffeine and primarily experience the shakes, nausea, palpitations, and/or a sense of unease.

 

The latter group may actually enjoy the morning coffee/tea ritual *more* with decaf, because they experience the physiologic response to caffeine as something unpleasant rather than something pleasant.

 

Something similar may happen with people who love the feeling of an adrenaline rush (v. those who don’t, and instead feel anxious and nauseated).  It’s not impossible the same differing response happens with other neurologically active chemicals, ingested or secreted/internally released.

[anisotrophic]

My partner has felt like he doesn't experience any emotional intensity as I do.

In contrast to @Traveler40's experience, he's very willing to have sex despite not wanting it in any personal way. (His approach is understandably passive. ) But there's something similar here: wishing I could give him the passion – he has it for nothing else, too. He doesn't experience a rush for things. In general. I feel powerless to give him that positive experience, I wish I could.

I think the positive experiences he gets from life are probably in the zone of contentment and security; I should be mindful of that & value those things.

[Expedition]

This is the kind of stuff that being able to measure how pleasure chemicals are processed in the brain could maybe give us an idea of the differences between people. 

 

For instance, SSRIs change how serotonin is processed in the brain and work as an AD because they bring effective serotonin levels closer to normal levels, in depressed people. I wonder if one of the reasons some people get more pleasure than others from sex is to do with how those chemicals are processed. 

[ryn2]

17 minutes ago, Expedition said:

For instance, SSRIs change how serotonin is processed in the brain and work as an AD because they bring effective serotonin levels closer to normal levels, in depressed people. I wonder if one of the reasons some people get more pleasure than others from sex is to do with how those chemicals are processed. 

There’s definitely some likelihood of that.  SSRIs don’t bring about the same positive response for people who don’t have specific types of depression or anxiety, even if those people do have depression overall.

 

It could be levels; it could also be receptor sensitivity and/or number, similar to the theories around why some people become physically addicted to certain substances much faster than other people do.

 

34 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I think the positive experiences he gets from life are probably in the zone of contentment and security; I should be mindful of that & value those things.

*nods*  I get that.  I personally value things of that nature way, way above “adrenaline rush” or “exciting” things.

[Expedition]

54 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

could be levels; it could also be receptor sensitivity and/or number, similar to the theories around why some people become physically addicted to certain substances much faster than other people do.

Yeah that's why I was talking about processing. 

[ryn2]

46 minutes ago, Expedition said:

Yeah that's why I was talking about processing. 

Right, I wasn’t disagreeing, just expanding upon the thought.

 

I don’t know how much research there has been into the neurochemistry of preferences (in general, not just related to sex).  It would be interesting to know if people who enjoy something are having a different physiological response - or having the same physiological response but just subjectively experiencing it differently - from people who don’t enjoy it.

 

I’ve seen some semi-related work around impulse control (e.g., with ADHD) but...

[Whore*of*Mensa]

I had a friend who was addicted to both caffeine and nicotine and we went on holiday together with our kids a few times.

 

She could be an absolute pain with her constant need for a hit - activities were constantly interrupted by a need to seek out one or the other of them. I sometimes wished she could just stop wanting, and just be, just relax into the present.

 

That can be how an asexual feels with a sexual. Well it was how I felt with my husband - again, on holidays with the kids; constant tension and wanting and needing - while I could just be in the moment, calm and content and happy. Needing nothing. 

 

I felt sorry for their inability to do that, the need to be in the past or the future thinking about the next high. I felt as if they were missing out, not me.

[Expedition]

40 minutes ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

 

I felt sorry for their inability to do that, the need to be in the past or the future thinking about the next high. I felt as if they were missing out, not me.

It's really not like caffeine or nicotine addiction, because sex between sexuals involves interaction between people (and also isn't physically harmful). If there is an addictive interpretation to be had, it's an addiction to feeling really close to your partner (that's the oxytocin). For sexuals, it feels rather dismissive to have sex put in the same box as wanting a coffee. 

[KiraS]

IME while sex can be very very very good, for me it can be very bad as well. And I value a relationship that supports me in every other regard far more than I'm willing to negotiate boundaries and frameworks for safe, sane, and consensual that I know many other people find unreasonable.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Expedition said:

Didn't the combination of physical and emotional experience increase both, symbiotically?

No... for me it's all emotional leading to a physical good feeling so little difference in 4 hours of cuddling and sex. Both leave me pleasantly blissed out and feel great during. But, I also focus on the emotions of sex to "get off" so to me the emotional high is king and I get that both the ace way and through sex now. Neither is superior in my experience. Just one is quicker. 

[Tyke]

I think we've hijacked this thread somewhat. I wonder if the relevant bits could be hived off into a new thread?

 

But I digress. When I was in a relationship we used to joke that we had the whole range of emotions covered. My partner lived in 0-3 and 7-10. Whilst I never really left 4-6. Different people run to different rules. I'm more than content in my apparently somewhat limited range. When I'm at the top of 6 it feels good, and I'm there quite a lot. Would I accept some wider range and have to deal with the dark and miserable days? Maybe. But then, and this is the point, I wouldn't be me, I'd be someone else. Just love me for who I am, alright?

[Whore*of*Mensa]

On 2/24/2020 at 8:45 PM, Expedition said:

It's really not like caffeine or nicotine addiction

Sure...I was following the analogy you made.

 

On 2/24/2020 at 8:45 PM, Expedition said:

For sexuals, it feels rather dismissive to have sex put in the same box as wanting a coffee. 

As it does to asexuals, to have their lack of desire for sex put in the same box as drinking decaf and not understanding what it's like to drink an espresso

 

On 2/24/2020 at 8:45 PM, Expedition said:

If there is an addictive interpretation to be had, it's an addiction to feeling really close to your partner (that's the oxytocin)

You can get this from cuddling a baby. Oxytocin isn't exclusive to sexuals. 

 

Obviously, you're saying that there's something additional to a chemical reaction involved in sex. I don't think you can boil it down to a physical, chemical reaction - humans are complicated. It's clearly a subjective, complex experience which means different things to different people. All anyone can do is talk about their own, individual experience - there's no one-size-fits-all definition of sexuality. 

[Whore*of*Mensa]

30 minutes ago, CBC said:

Well sex isn't like coffee, no. But if you're using them as equivalents still based on what they are, coffee and sex, it's not particularly a stretch.

 

I'm surprised to see the analogy on here, that's all. It seems like the same analogy people use when they say they can't see the point of alcohol-free beer, or decaff coffee, or cigs without weed in them...I'm hearing that a sex-free cuddle is the same sort of thing - you're missing something. That's how I understood the arguments made above.

 

But all of those comparisons involve something addictive, which isn't usually seen as healthy. 

 

I'm quite a coffee addict, actually. But I do like to be able to go without. I suppose that's why I like the idea of being 'free' from desires, as I described. I've rid myself of addictions before and it does feel like freedom. 

 

[Traveler40]

This “Stay in Place” order is interesting: We have no activities or demands on time beyond schooling (which is so damn organized it’s basically self sufficient), and weeks ahead to just be. It’s what everyone typically dreams about, but never gets. We have it now, so I say stay healthy and enjoy it!

 

My lover was in my home this week for the first time ever which was beyond incredible. To have him in my space, my room, my bathroom was a dream come true. He watched the kids one day while I worked and visited for a few hours another day. It was uncomfortably revealing in a way, but inconceivable even a month ago. My, how far we’ve come in 3 years. 
 

Our kids have three highly devoted parents that want nothing but the best for them. They still have no idea, and that’s ok. It’s how it should be. 

[ryn2]

6 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

We have no activities or demands on time beyond schooling

So envious!  I’m working 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week, with no end in sight.

[anisotrophic]

@ryn2 oof, good luck. Try to get sleep, hydrate. Frontline folks are exposed in the course of their work. I hope you'll be ok.

 

(my spouse and I are both struggling to continue full-time work that doesn't go away -- my work is actually more active now -- while trading off with kids. It's a lot, but we're safe & managing.)

[ryn2]

10 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

@ryn2 oof, good luck. Try to get sleep, hydrate. Frontline folks are exposed in the course of their work. I hope you'll be ok.

Thanks!  Most of my colleagues support the front line - only a few are directly on it - so I should be okay from that perspective.  There’s just a lot of ramp-up work.  I’m definitely thinking of all our front-line staff, all the time.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

On 3/20/2020 at 4:51 AM, Traveler40 said:

Our kids have three highly devoted parents that want nothing but the best for them.

In my experience kids don't always accept the parents that you choose for them, and it can be difficult when one parent decides their new partner is going to be an additional parent without consulting anyone else. Sometimes the existing parent has something to say about this, sometimes the kids have something to say about this. 

[Traveler40]

2 hours ago, Whore*of*Mensa said:

In my experience kids don't always accept the parents that you choose for them, and it can be difficult when one parent decides their new partner is going to be an additional parent without consulting anyone else. Sometimes the existing parent has something to say about this, sometimes the kids have something to say about this. 

I guess I’m glad this isn’t like your experience then. 🤷🏻‍♀️  

[Traveler40]

I read this article earlier today which caught my eye:

 

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2020/04/22/heres_polyamory_multi-partner_sexual-rights_crusade_on_the_horizon_122979.html

 

I never thought of our opening as something which could be a movement; We are happily and firmly in the closet. It’s clear that much is still unknown about the open marriage group.  Everyone has their structure and reasons, but some aren’t scared to live openly. We never could. Ever. 
 

I don’t know, it’s made me uncomfortable and my mind has gone down various paths while thinking about it. My husband knows that if I were to get injured, my lover should be called in as well. I don’t think I’d provide numbers to the hospital for two men, but would leave it up to my husband and his discretion. He knows my wishes as we’ve discussed it. Wow, it’s a tough thought though.
 

We also recently started considering amending our trust to place the kids with my lover if both of us went, knowing he would bring them up as we envision. Our families would lose it and not understand how we could place our children into a veritable strangers hands.  I suppose my lover would have to clear things up as only he could: Nebulously! Haha
 

We truly have zero legal protection. In our very conservative community, that risk is real. I suppose not living together shields us, but as time goes on, we need to remain mindful: Our normal is not acceptable in a very big way! That’s not news, but it doesn’t stay in the forefront of my mind every second of the day either. 
 

My lover had started collecting the kids from school and joined in as a parent at times publicly before COVID. He’s always “the friend”, but as we integrate more, an even healthier dose of concern is warranted. Perhaps we should rethink even that little bit. While organically growing, it’s clear our comfort zone may need a revisit.  Food for thought.

 

In the end, I felt that even if the fight for equal rights becomes a thing, I would never out us. It’s too dangerous, and there’s so much to lose. This solution of ours that works so well isn’t risk free. It’s complicated IN the closet at times and definitely complicated OUT of the closet as well. 
 

I would love to see the world live and let live.

 

Otherwise, all’s well. This is the longest stretch apart from my lover since our break up 2 years ago. We are following the quarantine and have only seen each other once in 6 weeks. My husband is doing well, and the kids are loving this lifestyle. It’s very “Leave it to Beaver” at the moment, and they are soaking up the slower pace. While difficult for many, we are ok. Our focus is on following the order and making sure the kids stay on track academically.

[ryn2]

Civil rights movements for “invisible” things carry the added complication of making it a bit harder for those who really want to stay closeted; they introduce an index of suspicion - “hey, what about those folks down the street?” - that might not have been there when the subject received less press.

[Traveler40]

I’ve started an update a handful of times over the last few weeks, but have scrapped them as it’s hard to articulate the intricacies. Overarching, we are well and relatively unscathed within our new normal. In the trenches, there are observable situations as a result of the stay-at-home that serve to make me ponder our longer term trajectory. I know where we are, but I have zero clue where we are headed.

 

My husband is in full blown denial of how much the historical lack of sex or romantic connection affects me. I’ve expressed it a thousand times over the years, but he has always been incapable of grasping it. Typically, this isn’t a thing to dwell on anymore as he’s lost the power to control my sexuality. However, being stuck in a false state has so obviously altered his mood that I can’t help but wonder about what’s best for everyone. 

 

He is so freaking happy! He’s hopeful, easy, complacent, attentive and almost preening now that we are all together, alone. He has what he wants: his family in a veritable cage. If he could just hold us here forever, that would be his ideal. *Sigh*  He makes it so comfortable it’s almost attractive, and the nuance is maddening.

 

I have found myself going over this stuff in simple terms to help me wade through the complexities. 

 

1: What do I know? 

- We’ve been here and done this. It doesn’t work for me sustainably.

- I want the family together as long as possible. 

- We have a partnership that works.

- He needs us in place for his well being.

- He will never let me go.

- I feel a responsibility and a duty of care.

 

2. What do I need?

- Our kids to be happy and healthy.

- My lover.

 

3. What’s possible?

- The current configuration will work for awhile. Will it get our kids to college? TBD

- After, how do we structure it? I’m stuck, and this is what I toy with mentally. 

 

My lover and I both have situations that require us to consider others. Over the past few years, I’ve seen the impossible happen so many times that it keeps my hope alive:

 

I could never take a lover - ✔️

I could never go on a date - ✔️

We could never do an overnight - ✔️

A lover could never be sustainable - ✔️

He could never meet the kids - ✔️

He could never enter our home - ✔️

He could never take a trip with us - ✔️

He could never take the kids for the day - ✔️

The men could never be ok with each other - ✔️

 

We could never create a modern family that meets everyone’s needs...

 

Could we? That’s the $64,000 question.
 

“Impossible!”... Is it? 🤔 That’s where I’m at.

 

What I’ve learned is not to push in any direction. Loosely desire something and focus on the now. You never know where it might lead. 

[ryn2]

I think #3 is key:  is there a place where the circles of the various parties’ needs overlap sufficiently?  What does it look like?  Once you have an answer to that you’ll have a much better idea how much courage may be required (and when, and from whom).

 

Rhetorical question... if you had the answer already you would probably not be wondering.

[Traveler40]

4 hours ago, ryn2 said:

  is there a place where the circles of the various parties’ needs overlap sufficiently?

Thanks @ryn2, you’re correct of course. It’s not so much your question that makes it seem impossible. In fact, I do see how our needs, natural care and flexibility work together. There is area of overlap which only grows with time.
 

What seems so tough is the rest of the world. His family, my family, society and business constraints would not allow for alternative anything. Even if we could work towards a harmony (and I do think we actually could across time) I’m not sure it’s feasible.  
 

The sad fact is that I’m more worried about the other folks than I am about the ones that are closest to us. “They” could actually doom any sensible and ultimately caring arrangement. 
 

Our families are both traditional and ultra conservative. Sadly, I would likely need to retire first and have some family members go over the rainbow before there would even be a chance at this formulating vision.
 

My lover likes property. I’ve been thinking if one could be acquired next door, perhaps a compromise could be made in the interim. So yeah, I’m casually conjuring up alternatives that might bridge present and future. Who knows, right now it’s a pipe dream....

 

Oh, and if I was me reading this from another three years ago? I’d have judged it both impossible and very “out there”. It would certainly never originate with me...

[ryn2]

8 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

My lover likes property. I’ve been thinking if one could be acquired next door, perhaps a bridge could be made in the interim. So yeah, I’m casually conjuring up alternatives that might  bridge present and future. Who knows, right now it’s a pipe dream....

If everyone directly involved is good with things, and the problem is more around societal judgment, that could work.  It would make explaining why he’s around much simpler... even in a conservative area, being friendly with one’s neighbors is usually considered a positive, “normal” thing.

[anisotrophic]

54 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

even in a conservative area, being friendly with one’s neighbors is usually considered a positive, “normal” thing

Hah, yeah, I’m left to wonder how many of ours are more uncomfortable with my transition than they’ll let on (some are quite religiously observant). Thankfully social pressure is on my side.

 

@Traveler40 I’m sorry your spouse just (still) doesn’t get it. One can try joint therapy, but idk how much that helps if it’s one-sided. (Boy did it bomb with my mom. We stopped talking for several weeks; my dad stepped in and got us to move on. We just, y’know, don’t talk about the thing she disapproves of. That strategy can work pretty well! But not for spouses I don’t think.)

[Guest]

 

 

7 hours ago, CBC said:

 

What does that mean, exactly? Just as a complete hypothetical, say you woke up tomorrow morning and decided you were absolutely done with your marriage and were going to leave. What would him not letting you go look like in that case?

Heh, this one is really tricky whenever one considers a breakup. And I get why Traveler would put it there. My ex after 5 years, me being remarried and them being in a new relationship still can't let me go. He offers me money, he asks to play games together.  He's constantly emailing me. O.o 

[Traveler40]

14 hours ago, ryn2 said:

If everyone directly involved is good with things, and the problem is more around societal judgment, that could work.

Yes, this would take time. While my husband has allowed the relationship with my lover to be, flourish and expand, he can be territorial when it comes to his space which is understandable. I would never sleep with my lover in our home out of respect. God, I really want to, but neither of us would ever do that. It’s my husband’s space.

 

Alternatively, my lover both financially and logistically supports others who are wholly unaware of us. Oddly, while he’s unattached, his end would be tougher than mine in a move. It’s not impossible, but groundwork would be tricky.
 

A few things would have to happen, one of which would entail coming clean. With full understanding, the one person (on his end) that might make all the difference has the capacity to embrace it. It’s too early yet.

 

THEN, there are the societal concerns. We have demonstrated an incredible knack for hiding our love in plain sight. So, we trust ourselves in and around any situation to get it right. However, if we physically and more permanently blend as contemplated, it wouldn’t be seamless. I’m a risk manager at heart, so sufficient risk (personal as well as professional) would need to be mitigated before that could be an option. 

 

My mind is now stuck on the one person who needs enlightening in time. Ohhhh, sticky! Haha

[Traveler40]

On 7/3/2020 at 11:26 PM, CBC said:

What does that mean, exactly?

My husband has decided this is his life. That’s it. Setting aside the fear he holds for both living and dying alone, he doesn’t like change. He has directly told me he will never leave. I would have to drag him wherever, and he would only go there to sit in the dark until he dies. 🙄

 

It’s not that dramatic, but he’s a man that loves his family to the moon and back. We ARE his life. I can’t and won’t rip that from him. Let’s say I was cruel enough to proverbially kick him to the curb, he wouldn’t budge and would literally drop to dead weight. I suppose you could say I care too much to deliver such pain. I’d rather reinvent and configure our lives logistically to care about all parties and their needs as it’s something we might be able to accomplish. My lover has an even more compassionate and inclusive viewpoint which would simply keep things as is for as long as it works.

My ultimate dream vision would be a property with two homes. I’d live with my lover, but we would all live together apart. If this is feasible, and everyone is happiest, why not?

 

Serran has it right mainly, but my husband would hang on even tighter. He effectively sees no other way for himself, and his fear of dying alone, without those he loves, is great. I wouldn’t do it to him and am no longer sacrificing too much to want to. 
 

[Traveler40]

Thinking on the situation, I came back to check in and felt it important to round out my thoughts with an emotional nod:
 

To be clear, I love my husband and care about his well being. I assume that’s obvious given the fact that I’ve stayed all of these years. As well, I’m dedicated to ensuring he’s comfortable and cared for. I married him for many reasons that have nothing to do with sex. In those capacities, he’s the same man. I respect him and care both for and about him. 

 

When I answer these questions as posed, I do so in a rational way and use logical reasoning. Some have felt I don’t portray enough love in my descriptions. Maybe, but I see it’s more about my thoughts than my feelings many times.

 

I suppose, to me, it’s clear how much I care, or I would have ended the relationship a long time ago. I cannot and will not do that to him. He is an incredibly good man that is an integral part of our family. If we can make all of the pieces work, I think it’s worth a shot. It may be a long shot, but it’s worth trying.