Sexual Wife/Asexual Husband - Truce!

[ryn2]

ENM has been a fairly open (hah!) thing in the big-city gay community for a long time, so places that are relatively tolerant-to-accepting of openly gay men are often used to ENM as well.  A friend who went to college in Boston and found it a bit too stodgy ended up in NYC where it hasn’t been a problem.

 

That’s not to say everyone in NYC, SF, etc., will be fine with it; just that it’s something most people know exist and that makes it easier to find friend groups, kink clubs open to all adults, others interested in being part of ENM relationships, etc.

[ryn2]

Just now, ryn2 said:

ENM has been a fairly open (hah!) thing in the big-city gay community for a long time, so places that are relatively tolerant-to-accepting of openly gay men are often used to ENM as well.  A friend who went to college in Boston and found it a bit too stodgy ended up in NYC where it hasn’t been a problem.

 

That’s not to say everyone in NYC, SF, etc., will be fine with it; just that it’s something most people know exist and that makes it easier to find friend groups, kink clubs open to all adults, others interested in being part of ENM relationships, etc.

Not to imply it’s only been a thing for gay men; they were just the most outspoken and public about it.

[Traveler40]

On 4/4/2021 at 8:06 AM, anisotrophic said:

“kitchen table polyamory”

I looked that up just to ensure I knew what you were referring to. Yes, we are working towards that I suppose. In our case, we seem to organically grow as it makes sense and feels right to all parties. I can see how others choosing to open might think, “Yeah, isn’t that nice! I’d like that arrangement!”, but it’s not that simple.

 

The important factors beyond all party agreement are patience and constant care. We are in a 4+ year work through to get to the “bench polyamory” of last Friday. It has been painstakingly seeded, nurtured and grown. Even given the beauty of that moment, I know it may be much longer to get to a kitchen table scenario.  Patience is a virtue...
 

Our children have no idea. They have asked some pointed questions to which I give them truthful answers from an angle. Frankly (and perhaps ignorantly), I haven’t bothered myself with how others do it, but find it interesting to learn it’s a thing - “kitchen table polyamory”!  🤣

 

I know how we are making it work: 

Slowly. Carefully, Consciously. 

[anisotrophic]

@Traveler40 I suspect it’s a lot slower to feel comfortable when it’s not something both (primary) partners have wanted from the start.

 

I know when I fell in love, I wished my husband felt friendly towards the other, but he was clearly uncomfortable. Over time it got a lot better.

 

My own limited experience is that I want to be friends with the other person, to the point I could creep them out. 😓 (“they like/love the person I love! That’s great! We are on the same team!” is my emotional reaction...) so I am probably very inclined to want kitchen table polyamory...

 

Anyway, like @ryn2 said regarding where ENM is “accepted” — yeah, queer community, and contexts which have queer presence (eg some professions have more queer community presence). A counterpoint for me is that, in these contexts, I’m often an outlier in having kids — that’s what makes me weird (there can be some very anti-natalist attitudes). 😕

[W.Lee]

I just joined this site today. I have had previous marriages and I am currently married to a man I first dated in the mid-1970s and a couple other times through the years and in 1995 we reconnected and have now been married for 24 years. I have only recently been reading about asexuality but It does appear that he very well may be asexual. As I was browsing this site, I came across a notice that April 6 is Asexuality Day! I had to chuckle at the irony of that date. In 2011 my husband suggested it might be helpful if I took a lover. Unfortunately, the person I chose was married (and thus not really available) so we never did have (as Bill Clinton would say) sexual relations. We did some fairly heavy making out but both agreed if we had  intercourse it would take us in a direction we weren’t prepared to go. We had been attracted to one another and loved each other as friends for over 30 years before 2011 when we finally opened up completely to one another romantically and emotionally. We spent weekly time with one another from May 2011 to April 2012. On April 6, 2012 he died suddenly. (I did not get word of it until I read the obituary a few days after his death although I knew something was wrong because we texted a few times each day and he was feeling very ill and the last text I received from him was the night before he died.)  The grief I experienced is not something I would wish on anyone, and there are still times when I cry. My husband was stunned when he found out that my lover and I never had intercourse and actually spent very little time being physical. While I would have liked to have had sex with my lover it was his letting me know in many ways that I was a desirable woman that I think I really needed the most, so that year that we spent quality time together definitely eased pressure on my marriage. Now fast forward to the present. I am almost 70 years old (!!) but very young at heart, and go back and forth between a) telling myself I’m too old to have this still be bothering me and b) asking myself if I really want to spend whatever years I have left in longing on a daily basis for something I honestly don’t think I will ever have with my husband. We have not had intercourse in over 20 years and have sexual “activity” (not intercourse) maybe once a year or less and only if I initiate. He has never in our 24 years of marriage initiated sex of any kind. When we do have sexual activity once he is no longer in bed it is as if it never occurred. There are no afterglow special feelings expressed on his part (verbally or physically) and I am left feeling empty. When he expresses affection toward others in his life (such as his niece) I honestly see no difference in his behavior than it is toward me. It feels as though almost anything he does romantically or physically intimate is forced. My sexual feelings/desires are a core part of who I am. Divorce at this point simply doesn’t seem like a viable option for financial and family reasons. Although I welcome your comments, I’m not really asking anything here I guess but needed to let out all these feelings to those who might understand. Thank you for listening! 

Edited April 14, 2021 by W.Lee
typo!

[SusannaC]

@W.Lee,

Thank you for sharing your story.  It certainly seems as though we have much in common 1I can relate to your pain!
Again, thank you & I wish you happiness!

[Traveler40]

8 hours ago, W.Lee said:

I guess but needed to let out all these feelings to those who might understand. Thank you for listening! 

Anytime @W.Lee and welcome to AVEN. I’m glad you found this place and felt comfortable enough to tell your story. You aren’t alone. It’s a tough spot and many here understand. 🤗 

[Traveler40]

As for my corner of the world, all is not well in paradise. My lover is angry with me at the moment, and I’m not sure how this will go. Why? To be honest, I’m not entirely sure. It’s a lot of minor things that were born from back-to-back misunderstandings this week. As I put it to him earlier, it sounds like the sum of the parts have pushed him over the edge. I’m not sure what that means in the end. 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

Well, I’m perplexed. I love him more than any man I’ve ever known and can’t imagine life without him. Frankly, he is everything to me along with the family. I will screw up and can be fragile with him at times. He needs to understand I am not him. When I cross his line, what? The guillotine? Well, I can’t live that way. It’s unsettling to my core.

 

Times like these affect the whole family, and I’ve had a rough 24 hours. Guess who is here, stable as a keel, holding up the ship? Yep, my husband. He is steady, caring and ultimately supportive. What a position to be put in. He didn’t ask to be in this situation, but here he is, unwavering.  My husband has picked up pieces on two occasions in the last 4 years; Today was one.

 

This is an awkward situation in a trio: Who ends up dealing with emotional fallout? It turns out, we all do. Pros/cons, it’s part of the deal. God, I hope my lover rights the ship soon.

 

UPDATE: Nothing’s sinking. 🙄 Wow, that was a first and felt like Def Con 1. It’s not totally washed away, but I wasn’t sure it would eventually blow over. It has.
 

Not mincing words and meaning what I say is a hallmark, so I tend to believe that’s the case with others as well. I forget folks don’t always mean exactly what they say when ticked. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[anisotrophic]

19 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

UPDATE: Nothing’s sinking. 🙄 Wow, that was a first and felt like Def Con 1. It’s not totally washed away, but I wasn’t sure it would eventually blow over. It has.

Phew, I hope that continues to get better, fingers crossed for you. I think with any relationship, getting through a challenge can ultimately be strengthening — hopefully this becomes that — with a caveat that, even so, things never glue back together quite the same. At least that’s how it’s felt for me.

[Traveler40]

Thanks to those that reached out. I was feeling pretty low last night. 

 

Your input reminds me of an Italian metaphor about relationships and broken dishes: You can glue them both back together, but they are weaker than when they started and the cracks remain.

 

At least that’s the bit my Nona hoped I’d remember. Yeah, we were a family of many fractured relationships. Italians can be passionate people. 😬

 

Anyhow, I appreciate the idea of this strengthening us. Right now it’s still TBD, but moving in the right direction. 

[Traveler40]

Our structure works, but it’s not without incident. Recently, I realized my husband was using our CCTV system to check up on us from his office when my lover visited the house. I continue to work remotely, so my lover comes over to keep me company. Beyond the annoyance, I was genuinely taken aback to learn he worried. 

 

In a nutshell. he pulled a few passive aggressive stunts which led to the realization that he was deeply angry. Upon a confrontation and my calling out his behaviors, he admitted to feeling upset. He said he felt he was losing control of his family, was on the outside of our circle and was watching what matters most slip away. He used the word “frightened” which impressed upon me the level of angst he carried, and it broke my heart to hear him say it. 

 

My husband is one of the best men I’ve ever known, and his feeling on the outside of his own circle is unacceptable. So, going forward I will ask for permission or notify him when my lover wants to come over. This is a hard line, even if the drop by is spur of the moment. Of course, I can still go the other direction at will. 

 

That result seems simple enough, but the process wasn’t quick.  He needed reassurance, but specifically surrounding his space and my time. While unintentional, his feelings of my pushing the envelope were justified. That’s been rectified,  but some interesting comments came from the talk which instigated this update.

 

First, during our conversation we covered a wide range of feelings, logistics and perspectives to arrive at an understanding. It was amazing how my husband handled it. Typically, he would fight the process and create more issues, but showed you’re never too old to improve. He broke through old scripts, habits and routines to meet me halfway, and I don’t think I’ve ever admired him more. The cast of characters in this is critical, and my husband is key. 

 

Second, here’s what stuck with me:

 

1. He mentioned he was not a robot and while there is evidence to the contrary, he needs attention beyond what I currently provide. We’ve agreed to more frequent talks over coffee.  I believe he misses spending time together and the conversations we used to have. So more talks it is.
 

I put this here as that’s the extent of it, period. I’m uncomfortable even thinking about my husband closer than 3 feet away. My person belongs to my lover.

 

Also, I don’t believe he meant more than coffee talk, but I want to be clear and do not want to offend him.  I need nothing physically beyond friendship; That ship sailed long ago. This has occupied my mind however in the form of an irrational fear maybe?

 

2. He’s not sure he’s asexual. He hears things I’ve said and understands his history, but he’s confused. He wants to be sexual in his mind it seems. Supporting evidence he mentioned included: 

 

- On occasion he will see a woman and think he’d like to have sex with her. He doesn’t have fantasies (never has had any) or desire some drawn out encounter, but sees a scenario that’s  “wham, bam, thank you ma’am” perhaps... (his words)

 

- He was sexual with a woman back when he was 21. He said it was crazy, wild sex at the time, but then qualified it with “the few instances” they got together. He therefore thinks he may not be asexual and blames his parents. He thinks his issue is a lack of maturity that others have surrounding sex and thinks he may get it sometime in the future. 
 

He wants to change this about himself, but doesn’t know how....

 

I am at a loss having been here for 20 years. Frankly, I suspect we’ve had sex fewer times than the number of years we’ve been together. On top of that, having experienced the real deal, I hesitate to even call what we did “sex” 😬🙄.

 

All evidence  points in one direction, so this is where labels aren’t needed. It is what it is. I guess it bothers me that he can’t seem to find acceptance. Absent that, he will likely have these flare ups on occasion. I want for him to embrace that which is and believe in the longevity of what we have. I’m not going anywhere, and my lover is ultimately supportive of our family of five. It works for all parties and, ironically, the biggest threat to his life as structured is his fear it won’t last. 

[anisotrophic]

@Traveler40 with respect to the visits, it sounds like you had a hopefully-well-handled stumble over boundaries and expectations with your husband!

 

With respect to your husband’s introspection about his sexuality, and what he wants in his relationship with you… I really hope he considers seeing a therapist.

 

In my experience the distinction between “therapy” and “life coaching” is fuzzy. For your spouse to understand who he is & what he wants as an individual and/or in your interpersonal relationship is the sort of thing I’d turn to a therapist to help navigate.

 

“Therapy” unfortunately has a stigmatizing association with “disorder”. People aren’t necessarily having a “disorder” in who they are, although there can be disorder in how they communicate and interact with others.

 

I mean, concretely, it sounds like there’s blunt questions that are going to be difficult to tackle without a third party providing a neutral format, accountability, etc. — so charged, laden with history, they are likely to explode or shut down… (Does your husband hope he can try to be physically intimate or sexual with you? Does he want to explore that with others? It would make sense if the topic is untouchable given what’s happened.)

 

Your husband does have to accept who you are, your boundaries, where you are. For example, it sounds like you do not want his physical affection and you may never want it. You would like to be friends.

 

I’d say… he isn’t obligated to accept something about himself. However, you aren’t obligated to help him work it out, especially in the absence of a therapist.

 

While a friend or partner can be there to support someone “discovering themselves”, it’s inherently problematic if this process is entangled with how one is interacting with each other. (e.g. “What’s my gender? What’s my sexuality? What do I want to do about these things?” — questions my husband and I have both navigated...)

 

I mean, concretely... Why are you hearing about his occasional thoughts about women? Why are you hearing about his past sexual experiences? It sounds like he’s trying to get you to be a therapist.

 

One can be supportive while maintaining boundaries, saying “get an individual therapist” and “I am willing to see a joint therapist with you, provided [I agree with the therapist, you also have an individual therapist, etc]”. My sense is that this is something you/he can afford, in terms of money — and with the advent of remote therapy I think the time cost is not so bad.

 

If he won’t see a therapist (and could clearly afford to do so), I think it really isn’t your job to compromise your own boundaries to do all the work a therapist might do, to help him come to terms with a current reality, understand “who he is”, navigate “what he wants to do about it”, etc. I’m sorry if he’s resistant on this, I hope he considers it.

[Guest]

If his ideal is hit it and quit it kind of sex... maybe he could be more aromantic sexual? And repression + the default romantic expectations make him repress it even further? Something for him to explore. My brother used to go to strip clubs and pick up strippers with the deal they could hang out at his home, drink his alcohol and he would buy them things in return for sex but the minute they wanted more than just sex and go home, then he would never see them again because he wanted no romantic expectations on his relationships. Very transactional, purely physical, no emotions involved. Put up front for the girls to know what they were getting.  Some people really do just want sex to be a physical pleasure thing, rather than a love based thing. 

 

Edit: My ex husband was sorta like that too. Kissing or anything romantic at all ruined sex for him. Which I think added a lot to my own sex repulsion, as to me, the romance is the best part of sex with my current wife. He is currently in his own ideal with a girl that as he puts it "is OK with my indifference". Wham bam sex and occasionally hanging out. 

[Traveler40]

@anisotrophic thank you. That’s really well said and made me reflect on being his problem solver in all ways. Maybe that extends to part time therapist, but I’d never thought of it as generally crossing boundaries or unlikely to be helpful. You’re correct of course. 
 

My general viewpoint is that if you have a problem, do the work to fix it. Break it down, understand all aspects then take corrective action. Absent that, the problem will persist, and I lose patience for the unmotivated to change towards betterment. My husband is in this category perhaps.

 

I have found him a few therapists. The most recent was a local person who was LGBTQ+ friendly. While I mentioned it numerous times, he clearly lacks the desire. I can’t change this or help It. I hear you on need though.  In his defense, he saw a therapist once a couple of years ago which didn’t go well. He hasn’t experienced good and maybe lacks belief it can be?
 

It’s amazing to see how much time can slip away in denial with your head in the sand. He could lose a lifetime in thoughtless if I’d let him and am ok letting him be. I guess that’s what I need to consider. It doesn’t bother me that he asks, but I see the fruitless point given our history and relationship.
 

Boundaries - yes.  I will keep that in mind as it pertains to conversations and am working on it. My historical inflexibility surrounds acceptance of his victim/martyr routine. I’ve taken a militant stance on it and am finally seeing conscious changes there and am thrilled about it. 

[Traveler40]

@serran - thanks for that input. It’s radical on the face as I see my husband, but the more I think on it not impossible however improbable. It’s never crossed my mind so I appreciated the alternate thought.
 

Separately, I don’t think he’s had sex beyond a minimal amount of times, but enjoyed masturbation to my knowledge.  Since his prostectomy, I have no idea if he’s regained function. It’s sort of a no go topic around here. I found it interesting to find he’s hopeful he may one day mature into sexuality....😕

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

I lose patience for the unmotivated to change towards betterment.

From personal experience it can be much more complicated than that.  E.g., I become paralyzed/overwhelmed easily and am not goal-oriented.  Those can combine to look like “unmotivated” but, internally, that’s not actually what’s going on at all.

 

I mean, I suppose you could consider it “insufficiently motivated” by definition in that I don’t act but in some cases only the imminent risk of death would be enough to get me over a hurdle.

 

That said, I obviously don’t know your husband at all and have no idea what is(n’t) driving his behavior.

[Traveler40]

@ryn2, understood. There is a point when others are affected by the stagnation though. If I’m unaffected by another’s decisions that’s fine, but once it involves me and options narrow, I too become stuck. Being held hostage by default is tough.

 

While I can empathetically understand, I may not allow it to continue happily. Eventually, I’d seek to force change. (Ie remove myself, regain control and move forward.)

[ryn2]

Agreed that you don’t have to accept the status quo ad nauseam (at all, really).  I just meant that it’s not always “things are fine; why should I change anything?” behind the curtain.

[anisotrophic]

On 6/1/2021 at 11:05 AM, Traveler40 said:

 

I have found him a few therapists. The most recent was a local person who was LGBTQ+ friendly. While I mentioned it numerous times, he clearly lacks the desire. I can’t change this or help It. I hear you on need though.  In his defense, he saw a therapist once a couple of years ago which didn’t go well. He hasn’t experienced good and maybe lacks belief it can be?

Yeah, it can be tough when experiences haven’t been positive. And if it doesn’t come with some intrinsic motivation, it’s hard for therapy to be effective — one needs to have some sort of concern to address or goal or thing to try to change. Otherwise the therapist is just like … “why are you here?” 😂

 

Maybe because I’ve had therapy myself, I’m more liable to notice & call him out on conversational directions where I’m feeling like he’s trying to get me to help sort himself out with respect to things that relate to his relationship with me.

 

I’ve very much been the problem solver. That’s a tough dynamic. Recently my husband says he wants to improve on his passivity, so … that’s good.

 

Fingers crossed for you. 🤞 Boundaries don’t mean being unsupportive... If your husband has been avoidant, stagnant, or passive, it sounds good that he’s is interested in changing — hopefully a good thing.

[naturerhythms]

@Traveler40 Although I'm not on here that regularly, I just wanted to express great gratitude to you for sharing about your journey here. Thank you.

[Traveler40]

It’s been months since I’ve posted an update, and I feel a bit remiss. It’s tough to bring my thoughts together given they can be uncomfortable, and I don’t know how to put it all out there without feeling through it, and I don’t particularly want to do that.

 

With the exception of the kids, we are currently suspended in time and living the moment to moment mindset. I’ll tackle a couple of observations:

 

The kids are aging and noticing. Their acceptance of my lover has been evolving and they are working it out via direct questions or looks. We understand they are wondering, and I feel stuck. They are too young to level with and too old not to notice something feels different from other families.  Frankly, I believe they see the deeper connections had with my lover, but need to believe he is an Uncle of sorts which I promote. To them we are an exceptional family and all that is good, right and “normal”. It’s their belief in that ideal which will be shattered in time and why I struggle. I feel like we are misleading them.

 

Their perspective includes things I can’t contain to a few sentences, but we’ve instilled in them honesty, loyalty, open communication, hard work and family commitment. Our kids are incredible, abnormally cool and mature. A note home from school this week said, “Your child is every teacher’s dream!  [Name] is respectful, kind, engaging and very funny.  You have one amazing kid on your hands.” We hear this frequently and feel pride, but the facts of our situation hang over my head. What we’ve painstakingly taught and they cling to isn’t exactly what we live under the circumstances.

 

Are we lying to them? Well, it’s evident that they can’t square the optics or feelings, and I’m certainly not leveling with them. This is the crux and my greatest concern, but they are too young to understand and too old to fool. 

 

I struggle with not telling them the truth, but it’s the best and only answer at this juncture.

 

So yeah, the eventual effect on our children is what I ponder most these days. Will they hate me for this? Will they think I’ve lied to them throughout? Will they understand, accept and support us? I don’t know. It scares me, but I’m doing the best I can.

 

I think my husband’s lack of enthusiasm at times is part of it. It’s normal for him to be territorial and many times the kids need my lover’s help in schoolwork and computer support. This makes my husband unhappy and that comes through. The lack of complete acceptance from both parents is maybe what creates questions. It is what it is and everyone has a right to their feelings. 

 

Last point on this is that I find our youngest needs to hear me declare love for Daddy often, while our oldest senses there may be sides to take when Daddy seems less than thrilled. If I compliment my friend, the kids always bring it back to Daddy as if it’s somehow a comparison and inclusion. They don’t do this with my other friends. Balancing and soothing feels like a full time job many times. 

 

Other than that, things are up in the air with health questions for my lover. He continues to have tests to understand, but the preliminary numbers aren’t good. I refuse to draw any conclusions at this stage, but spent a bit of time crying on his shoulder yesterday which helps no one. Enough said on this at this time.

 

Bright spot: I met the single most important family member of my lover’s last Saturday! 🙌🏼 That family member has heard about me and knows I’ve developed into a great and trusted friend, but they had never met me and have no clue about our relationship. After so many years, to simply meet them was an honor and milestone.

 

This is becoming a novel, so I will wrap with this: Things with my husband vacillate. Sometimes it’s great, other times he seems lost. This can lead to dust ups at times, but I see he’s trying hard to improve areas of tension. This is a major turn in our relationship and both positive and appreciated. Our issues arise when he plays the victim or martyr. It doesn’t sit well with me as I’m a huge believer in “own your crap” and fairness in communication. What I need to work on is less logic and more feel while he’s the polar opposite.  As always, it’s a work in progress.

 

That’s it in our little corner of the world. I’m planning to take a weekend trip next month with my lover and the kids don’t understand why they can’t go…. Fun times! 🙄🤣

 

EDIT: Related timely comments

[Traveler40]

AVEN’s value is beyond asexual awareness at this point. Almost every day I pop in here to read and see what’s new. For me, it’s better than Netflix. 😂
 

Mostly it’s quiet around here and reading the interactions from the sidelines feels right. Sometimes I jump in, but no longer visit out of some altruistic desire to contribute (even though that’s part of it). I keep visiting AVEN as it feeds the need to continually assess my life.

 

What I’m contemplating today is the concept of needs and the realizations around that. My conclusion is that needs suck. They exist and are persistent. They direct us and are the tail that wags the dog. Recognizing and being able to articulate them in an effort to address them is hard. It’s work to stop and understand something in order to improve it.
 

At times it feels humiliating. Frankly, I am weak and embarrassed by my needing. In fact, it’s similar to how I felt back when my relationship with my husband turned sexless. 
 

My lover is extraordinary, and I’m blown away by him routinely. That is not to say it isn’t hard work. I need something he isn’t good at: I need to hear, “I love you” and other words of affirmation. He shows me always, but is averse to telling me. Why do I need to hear the words? It’s so stupid, yet I feel shame in needing this simple thing that I already know to be true. 
 

He’s the smartest person I’ve met, is laser focused, listens to each word and grasps the crux always. He’s also clinical and logical to the extreme. On the other hand, I’m a feeler at the expense of logic in romance. He understands, but doesn’t indulge what he sees as unnecessary. Try to explain it’s necessary and you meet his frustration. 
 

Why? His needs are met in meeting mine, yet perspective plays a part.  If I point out the missing verbal bits, he hears, “You’re not meeting my needs!” So, around we go again. He sees less value in words and believes action is what matters. So yes, fun times with the persistence of needs. 🙄
 

Like many here, I’d love to strip the power from them. They exist, and I must remember there’s no shame in it. Advocating for yourself and spending energy not to ignore what you need is important, whatever that may be. I traveled 15 years down the sexless road and learned I can’t marginalize these things if I hope to be fulfilled.
 

If needing is seen as a weakness, then I say figuring out how to get it routinely met is strength. I only wish it wasn’t so complicated.

Anyhow, it took a marathon conversation until 1am, a few tears, some anger flare ups and a major meeting of the hearts to finally get what I needed last night. It didn’t come as expected, but was even better. Dare I hope it stays? I do. That’s the nature of hope. 

[Ceebs]

9 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

At times it feels humiliating. Frankly, I am weak and embarrassed by my needing.

Different context for me, nothing to do with saying 'I love you' (we do that probably dozens of times a day haha... it's a bit gross 😂), but yes I know that sentiment so much. I've spent basically my whole life ashamed of needing anything from anyone at all really (goes back to childhood family dynamics, I assume), and more specifically, ashamed of the intensity with which I feel my needs. Also the intensity of my emotions. I have this problem where I constantly feel like I'm not enough and need frequent reassurance that am, and then ashamed of how I'm somehow too much at the same time, because of the intense emotions thing. I worry the way I experience my feelings scares people off. They're big, and frequently overwhelming. And it's true that I've had people in my life who sort of... don't know what to do with me. My parents didn't. My ex-husband wasn't clueless like my family, and was always kind about my stuff, but at the same time he's not really a person who experiences anything too complex or intense himself in the way of emotions. That was one of the problems in terms of the mismatch in that relationship, I guess -- I need someone who can meet my emotional depth (yes I know that sounds pretentious as shit, but I don't know how else to phrase it) and kind of... validate that it's not a bad thing, and that they actually need that level of emotion from me. I'm glad I've got someone now who does, and who is also fine giving however much reassurance I need. Well, not just 'fine', but actively wants to do so and enjoys being able to provide that for me. It's the first time I've had that from anyone and the first time someone has understood me so well and doesn't seem to find me confusing or overwhelming.

 

But yeah. I've long said that shame feels like the core of who I am as a person... cos that's really healthy lol... so I understand the feelings of embarrassment and weakness very well. And guilt. I feel guilty for needing. And guilty for being the sort of person whose emotional needs are so strong that I can't ever just seem to shove them down and ignore them like I observe other people do, and I guess like I did myself when I was younger. I'm sure it'll take years of consistent reassurance to start feeling like I shouldn't be ashamed and like it's not weak, though.

 

9 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

If needing is seen as a weakness, then I say figuring out how to get it routinely met is strength.

I really like this. Hadn't thought of it that way before.

 

9 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Anyhow, it took a marathon conversation until 1am, a few tears, some anger flare ups and a major meeting of the hearts

Had a couple of those conversations recently too. It's still absolutely crazy to me that discussions like that can involve difficult, deep-seated personal stuff... tears and crabbiness, perhaps hurt... and still be respectful and loving and honest and resolvable. I expect things to fall apart completely over the slightest issue, I suppose because of both past experiences with people and my poor self-worth, and I'm slowly realising they won't. That it's a team thing, not two people completely at odds. Makes me realise how I'm not sure I've ever had a truly healthy and solid connection with anyone before -- in any type of relationship, romantic or otherwise.

 

Anyway. I'm very glad you got what you needed. Conversations like that can end up making you feel even closer and stronger as a couple.

[Traveler40]

@Ceebs., have you ever heard of “The Highly Sensitive Child” or sensitive children? I had not. Contemplating our youngest about a year ago had me googling much like I did when I found AVEN. Bingo! It’s a thing. 
 

Anyhow, I’d never heard of it, but immediately recognized the signs. It’s actually quite common. Perhaps you already know this stuff, but just in case I’m mentioning it here. It’s comforting to remember your life experiences don’t really set you apart; They make you human. Understanding and awareness help too. ♥️

 

EDIT: www.hsperson.com

[ryn2]

10 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

It’s actually quite common

*raises hand*
 

One example here…

[daveb]

2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

*raises hand*
 

One example here…

HSP here, too.

[LeChat]

I thought "HSP" and "introvert" were the same, but this link explains that they're similar and estimates that a majority of HSP are, also, introverts.

 

The Difference Between Introverts, Empaths, and Highly Sensitive People (highlysensitiverefuge.com)

[pickles.]

Another HSP here.

 

I just read this checklist of "21 Signs You're a Highly Sensitive Person."  I'm 18 of them, but some of them define my life to such a degree they should count double (#9!).

 

https://highlysensitiverefuge.com/highly-sensitive-person-signs/

[Ceebs]

19 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

@Ceebs., have you ever heard of “The Highly Sensitive Child” or sensitive children? I had not. Contemplating our youngest about a year ago had me googling much like I did when I found AVEN. Bingo! It’s a thing. 
 

Anyhow, I’d never heard of it, but immediately recognized the signs. It’s actually quite common. Perhaps you already know this stuff, but just in case I’m mentioning it here. It’s comforting to remember your life experiences don’t really set you apart; They make you human. Understanding and awareness help too. ♥️

 

EDIT: www.hsperson.com

I have actually, yep. That is absolutely me haha, and I grew up in a home with parents who... well, didn't know what to do with that. At all.

 

I now realise it's likely part of my ADHD. No one picked up on that when I was a child. Or my other stuff like OCD. And although I did have emotional outbursts when things got too much to deal with, I didn't actually try to tell anyone about what was going on with me. (Why would I? I was ashamed and... well, a kid.) And unfortunately, no one asked. Not even when my mental health started getting really bad. My family just... reacted or ignored, tried to control, criticised, whatever. Now as a grown-up myself, I find that shocking -- parents who don't non-judgementally ask their child what's wrong or what they're feeling or thinking and figure out how to be supportive and what else is needed. It's the first thing I'd do as a parent. Anyway, intense emotions and sensitivity and trouble with emotional regulation are a big part of ADHD, something I didn't even know until last year.

 

And yep, I know how comforting it can be to realise 'Ohhhhh there are other people like me!'

 

Anyway. Thanks  

[Ceebs]

8 hours ago, pickles mcgee said:

Another HSP here.

 

I just read this checklist of "21 Signs You're a Highly Sensitive Person."  I'm 18 of them, but some of them define my life to such a degree they should count double (#9!).

 

https://highlysensitiverefuge.com/highly-sensitive-person-signs/

Also, 20/21 on that list haha. And 26/27 on the test on the site @Traveler40 linked to. I think I've taken the latter before, years ago.

 

The sensitivity to clothing thing... yeeeeeaaahhh. My mum was baffled by my meltdowns over things touching me the 'wrong' way as a child. She has stories she tells about it. Fabrics, seams, the way stuff fit on my body, whatever. There were so many things I couldn't/wouldn't wear, and that hasn't changed at all as an adult. Tbh I buy multiples of the same things that I can tolerate and I do laundry frequently so I'm basically wearing the same items over and over again and 90% of the rest of my wardrobe just sits there. No one seemed to know bugger all about sensory processing issues when I was that age. It's very common with neurodiverse conditions like autism and ADHD, and it was one of several major contributing factors in my eating disorder as a teenager and part of the reason I still struggle with the ED... the tinier I could make my body, the less things would touch my skin. I don't know how people get through each day wearing whatever they think looks good without freaking out over how it touches their body. The wrong things feel like absolute sensory hell to me and I still have meltdowns sometimes. At worst it triggers self-harm urges, or days where the only acceptable thing is staying in bed because that's the only way existing in my body is marginally tolerable and I'm least aware of it.
 

I love my brain. 😁 (That's sarcasm...) Although the upside is that as much as I abhor certain sensations, with the ones I really love, the intensity is a huge bonus. Sex falls into that very very very good category. And touch in general from someone I love. Hugs, massages, etc. Getting poured on in a thunderstorm is another one lol.

 

That's one thing I appreciate so much about Tele. With the clothing/body stuff (well, and many things), he listens and takes me at my word and doesn't criticise or tell me it's silly or I should feel differently or 'get over it'. I'm not used to being open with someone about everything in my dumb brain and not being worried about their response. One of many things that makes me feel safe like I haven't before.