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Telecaster68

What sexuals are really thinking

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JDP
1 minute ago, m4rble said:

I think it's wrong to assume people who are asexual or aromantic are less emotional. That might be true in some cases, but most just have their emotions directed at other things. Some sexual people don't feel much from anything except sex, which seems much more emotionally limiting. 

That is actually very profound. Thank you.

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Philip027
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I think some people just find it kind of funny to talk like that because it verges on breaking the rules of polite society. In some ways I think it can relieve tension for the same reason. 

Ironically, it usually does the opposite sort of thing with me by making me feel alienated >_>  Not really that it builds "tension" per se, but still usually has me thinking about how I just can't relate to these people (it's pretty much exactly what caused me to hang out with females and avoid males in high school and beyond)

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m4rble
19 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Ironically, it usually does the opposite sort of thing with me by making me feel alienated >_>  Not really that it builds "tension" per se, but still usually has me thinking about how I just can't relate to these people (it's pretty much exactly what caused me to hang out with females and avoid males in high school and beyond)

Right, it can cause people to be uncomfortable, which is part of the reason it's a taboo in the first place. It's kind of like how people play cards against humanity to break the ice. 

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Philip027

I've seen/heard people playing Cards Against Humanity and I do not understand the appeal of it at all :mellow:

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
2 hours ago, Philip027 said:

I've seen/heard people playing Cards Against Humanity and I do not understand the appeal of it at all :mellow:

Yeah my ex on here used to play it in chat all the time and kept asking me to play it, I never understood it enough to play it though, I still don't know what it is exactly :S

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
On 25/08/2017 at 10:34 AM, asexjoe said:

Maybe I'll get lucky, or maybe I'm just an emotional cripple. You sure don't seem to be.

I may as well give up regardless, the men I fall in love with keep leaving me so it's clearly pointless. It honestly feels like I'm the only one capable of loving someone eternally and everyone I end up with just gives up when they get bored :/ ..I clearly can't do anything right, no matter how loving I am. The men I love will still always get bored of me and move on :c

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JDP
3 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

I may as well give up regardless, the men I fall in love with keep leaving me so it's clearly pointless. It honestly feels like I'm the only one capable of loving someone eternally and everyone I end up with just gives up when they get bored :/ ..I clearly can't do anything right, no matter how loving I am. The men I love will still always get bored of me and move on :c

You're anything but boring, Ficto. Those guys don't know what they're missing!

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NoLongerActive1234
On 8/30/2017 at 7:38 AM, FictoVore. said:

I may as well give up regardless, the men I fall in love with keep leaving me so it's clearly pointless. It honestly feels like I'm the only one capable of loving someone eternally and everyone I end up with just gives up when they get bored :/ ..I clearly can't do anything right, no matter how loving I am. The men I love will still always get bored of me and move on :c

*Hugs*.  Since it happened that way they weren't the right person you just didn't find your match good match yet. <3

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dissolved

I'm another one of those "used to be on the asexual side of things and now rather sexual" folk. And monogamous/monoamorous. Tried poly, failed poly. Spectacularly! 

 

I've been on and off AVEN for probably... Hmm, at least three years, and boy have I seen some misconceptions about sexuality and sexual people. Let's see how many I can remember... 

 

1. All sexual people experience attraction all day every day and it's so strong they want to fuck one another in the street. They don't need to know anything about the other person, because it's 100% physical. If a sexual person finds something other than bodies/faces attractive, they're not really sexual.

 

2. Sexual people don't experience love in the same way as asexual folk. It's not as "pure".

 

3. Sexual people are less intelligent because their minds are so preoccupied with sex.

 

4. Sexuality is very simple, invariable and can be described in five words or less.

 

5. Sexual people don't have any kind of intimacy, body or self esteem issues, mental health problems, nor do they understand what it's like to have anything other than a 24 hour raging sex drive.

 

6. Sexual people are attracted to one another's genitalia, nothing else.

 

7. Sexual people don't fall in love. 

 

8. Sexual people don't have emotions. 

 

9. Sexual couples have sex so often they don't get anything else done. They also don't need to do anything else, because sex is the only important thing in their lives.

 

10. Sexual people don't understand sexual attraction. (this one might just be my favourite). 

 

I kinda wish I was joking about this now, but these are all things I've seen here. Sometimes in the form of questions, but mostly just because people have decided that for example one sexual person doesn't feel anything therefore it must be true for all of us. 

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Telecaster68
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Sexual people don't understand sexual attraction. (this one might just be my favourite). 

Mine too. We should be grateful there are people around who've never had sex and never wanted it so they can explain how it all works to those of us who have had it and do want it. 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Well actually, regarding the sexual attraction thing, I've seen so many sexual people define it in so many different ways depending on their own personal experiences with love and sexuality etc that I don't think there IS any one way to explain it, which is why it could seem that sexual people don't understand it haha. We do understand what sexuality feels like for us though, and we can explain that, regardless of how we personally define sexual attraction or even if we want that term wiped off the face of the planet (Skulls was a big supporter of that idea and I have to agree with her).

 

At the end of the day, all sexual people do have an innate desire (to some extent or another) to connect sexually with others under certain circumstances for pleasure. That's what it all boils down to, regardless of how each sexual individual personally defines sexual attraction.

 

What really gets me (as I know it gets to all sexual people on AVEN) is how certain very vocal aces make multiple threads and hundreds of comments about how THEY know exactly what sexual attraction is because they read this book and that paper and they now know FOR A FACT that this is what sexual attraction is. And then sexual people are like ''well no, it's kind of different for us all.. that's only one person's opinion'' and said knowledgeable asexual says things like ''your individual experience is meaningless in this case unless you can find me a study that backs up what you're saying, I'm not buying it buddy. Here is MY study I found that explains 100% exactly what sexual attraction is and all sexuals do experience this and if you don't experience that you're an anomaly or have you considered you could just be asexual''.

 

This isn't just one asexual I'm talking about, ever since I joined AVEN we have them pop out of the woodworks every now and then. They are usually extremely articulate and write very, very long posts and start multiple threads (sometimes multiple treads weekly) explaining why every sexual person here is wrong about what it feels like being a sexual person, yada yada. ''It doesn't matter how you experience it, this is what it is, deal with it!''

 

What I don't understand is why AVEN (like the admins or whatever) don't put their foot down a little when it comes to this sort of thing. I understand this site is all about free speech, but it also says 'education' in the title of the website. If one self-identifying asexual person is standing on a platform trying to educate the entire community about what it means to be sexual, and sexuals are trying to say ''well, it's not like that for me, or for many of the sexual partners I have had, or for many of the sexual people I have spoken to here'' and those sexuals are getting shut down and told that, as a sexual ''their experience doesn't actually count when it comes to defining sexuality as a whole'', then isn't it in the best interest of education to maybe tell this person to calm down a little? They are entitled to post their studies to explain what THEY think sexuality is and how sexual attraction is defined etc, but as soon as they're saying THEY'RE right and all the sexual people on AVEN are wrong, that's where I personally start taking serious issue.

 

If someone says sexual attraction is one thing, and I say ''Weeeell, I don't experience it that way really and neither do some of the other sexuals I have met here.. it's definitely not like that for all sexual people'' and they say ''well that's your problem! Normal sexuals aren't going to end up on AVEN, that's why you experience it differently. But this is still sexual attraction because this scholar wrote about it and he has a PHD so he knows his stuff, so this is still how all sexual people experience it. You pretty much just need to accept that or show me a study PROVING that what you say you experience is true because until then it's not valid'' (that's actually a convo I had in the forums here a few months ago, not exaggerating) is any of that really contributing towards the 'education' that this site claims to be about... or is it actually just detrimental to the community as a whole?

 

At the end of the day, sexual people all seem to experience this sexual attraction thing quite differently from individual to individual, but we all desire sexual interactions with certain other people, under certain circumstances, to some extent or another. I don't know how to explain it any more basically than that.. but of course that's not valid because someone with a PHD didn't say it in some random medical journal written 8 years ago Y_Y

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Telecaster68

It's not just different people experiencing it differently, it's the same person experiencing it differently in different situations. 

 

Thing is Ficto, if AVEN educates, it will inevitably mean telling some people they're wrong, and the shibboleth that only you can know if you're asexual has been made into an absolute that nobody can be told they're wrong, ever, on AVEN, because that's invalidation. So it doesn't really educate much beyond describing an ever expanding panoply of labels. 

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Homer
38 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

and the shibboleth that only you can know if you're asexual has been made into an absolute that nobody can be told they're wrong, ever, on AVEN, because that's invalidation.

That's why I think that "only you can decide if you're asexual" is a trainwreck of an answer to the question "Am I asexual?". If asexuality an orientation, it's not a conscious decision to be made. I can decide if I am ace just as much as I can decide to be tall. Yes, only the person themself can know whether the definition "doesn't experience sexual attraction/desire" applies to them. But that's FAR from any "decision".

 

Telling someone to be wrong mustn't be seen as "invalidation". And no, it's still not a "spectrum". But ugh...

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
41 minutes ago, Homer said:

That's why I think that "only you can decide if you're asexual" is a trainwreck of an answer to the question "Am I asexual?". If asexuality an orientation, it's not a conscious decision to be made. I can decide if I am ace just as much as I can decide to be tall. Yes, only the person themself can know whether the definition "doesn't experience sexual attraction/desire" applies to them. But that's FAR from any "decision".

 

Telling someone to be wrong mustn't be seen as "invalidation". And no, it's still not a "spectrum". But ugh...

It would be the same if someone said "I'm a man and i literally only want to have sex with women because mmmm breasts are so squishy to press against and it does feel amazing having my penis inside a nice warm vagina. Also, I experience deep emotional pleasure from having sex with women, it's an almost spiritual experience sometimes. Sex with women is amazing and I'd only ever have female partners for this reason, however the way women look doesn't matter to me. I could enjoy sex with any willing woman! This makes me homosexual because I do think men are attractive. I often look at men and can appreciate the way a man's muscles look or can admire an impressive beard. I'd never actually have sex with a man, I find that idea quite repulsive, but  I'm a homosexual man none the less."

 

...I'm pretty sure a lot of people in the homosexual community would want to explain to him that he's maybe slightly confused about what definitions mean etc, and they would be in their rights to want to try to explain things to him. Just because he calls himself gay, he's not actually gay by any definition of the word. It's exactly like this a lot of the time on AVEN, but those who want to clarify things for the man are actually treading dangerously close to a ToS breach and by AVEN standards, that man actually is 100% homosexual just because he says he is.

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Cimmerian

I saw this touched upon a little earlier but I'm not sure this question was asked (so sorry if it's a repeat)!

 

If your partner was only comfortable with/enjoyed being on the receiving end of non-penetrative sex but was either uncomfortable,repulsed, or averse to touching you sexually (but was happy to make out and cuddle), how would you feel about that situation?

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Sally
On 8/29/2017 at 10:38 PM, FictoVore. said:

I may as well give up regardless, the men I fall in love with keep leaving me so it's clearly pointless. It honestly feels like I'm the only one capable of loving someone eternally and everyone I end up with just gives up when they get bored :/ ..I clearly can't do anything right, no matter how loving I am. The men I love will still always get bored of me and move on :c

You can't really say you're capable of loving someone eternally, since the ones you love eventually move on.  If they stayed, you might become bored to death with them.  

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Telecaster68
34 minutes ago, Cimmerian said:

I saw this touched upon a little earlier but I'm not sure this question was asked (so sorry if it's a repeat)!

 

If your partner was only comfortable with/enjoyed being on the receiving end of non-penetrative sex but was either uncomfortable,repulsed, or averse to touching you sexually (but was happy to make out and cuddle), how would you feel about that situation?

Frustrated, probably. While I'd enjoy the 'giving' part immensely, and (eventually) get my head round the repulsion part, I think I'd be fighting a growing resentment that the effect of this is that, to be crude, they're happy to get theirs but never ever reciprocate, which seems selfish. 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
9 hours ago, Sally said:

You can't really say you're capable of loving someone eternally, since the ones you love eventually move on.  If they stayed, you might become bored to death with them.  

I was super drunk when I wrote that, lol, but for example I first fell in love with a guy online when I was 14 and if he hadn't fucked off I'd still happily be with him now I guess, I still think of him with a lot of fondness. I can't stand break-ups or even the idea of such, I'd rather just stay and love the person and do our best to make it work. But damn, people chicken out fast, it really does feel like I have some internal thing that doesn't switch off but for the people I've met and loved that thing is only skin deep and can be washed away after a particularly hot shower or whatever. Love, it seems, is this fickle thing that can just be cast aside in the blink of an eye to some people. How I keep finding those ones and falling for what they say about me being their dream come true and they'll love me forever yada yada is beyond me. Seems I'll almost be safer with someone who says 'i'll dump you as soon as I get slightly bored with you' because at least that person is honest :S This is off topic though. 

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MrDane

Faking is still lying, though perhaps done out of love and (mis-)understanding. Playing along with the act is better than playing dead. Allowing to use as a masturbating device can feel better than a constant rejection. Saying "I love you and I want to be with you forever" can hurt if it comes with to many, "...but"

Sometimes it is just small things building up for both partners, and not just a small, unimportant crack in the big glorious relationship-picture. 

 

Most sexuals, wants to have sex with someone they love, who also wants to have sex with them and who also loves them and the sex. I think a few of the voices here, have forgotten this, since they have had sex which they didnt really want or because they thought they had to or where expected to. There are dimwitted, abusive dumbfucks among us all, but I think most want a compatible, happy, honest relationship unless they are some kind of broken. (...and it is not to be broken to be asexual)

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Snao van der Cone

I don't think it's asexuality that's leading people to make these largely inaccurate generalizations about sex and sexual people, but other factors (like learning styles, emotional intelligence, open mindedness, or general naivete) that they believe is part of their asexuality but really isn't. When I read the things that sexual people are saying about themselves and their thoughts and feelings and experiences, I think "Yeah, that makes sense, I can see that being the case" because I am adept at empathy and other ways of seeing another side. I know not everyone is like this and it may take more for them to understand these things, but we require an environment where they can be shown they're mistaken. We should not have an environment based around telling asexual people they're correct or around telling sexual people they're incorrect.

 

(Side note, I talk more about sex on AVEN than anywhere else, and learn a lot from the people here. I think those who continue to have tunnel vision despite these opportunities are missing out on a lot. <3)

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 hour ago, MrDane said:

but I think most want a compatible, happy, honest relationship unless they are some kind of broken. (...and it is not to be broken to be asexual)

It seems to me that people think they want that, then when they have it (no matter how sexually and intimately compatible they are) it's still perfectly possible for one of them to decide it's all too much effort and throw in the towel, no matter how adamant that very person was (in the beginning) that they desire a loving, committed relationship. Obviously I hope there are those out there capable of sticking at it and I hope to meet one of them, but I keep getting TOLD one thing at the beginning, then that person's actions go against everything they said >.<

 

Regardless, I agree that sexuals and asexuals are rarely compatible, for various reasons. No matter how much love they have a relationship between a sexual and an ace will be difficult when it comes to intimacy. However of course even perfect compatibility on all levels is no guarantee of a relationship lasting regardless, so meh.

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Law of Circles
12 hours ago, Cimmerian said:

I saw this touched upon a little earlier but I'm not sure this question was asked (so sorry if it's a repeat)!

 

If your partner was only comfortable with/enjoyed being on the receiving end of non-penetrative sex but was either uncomfortable,repulsed, or averse to touching you sexually (but was happy to make out and cuddle), how would you feel about that situation?

I'd be okay with that - in fact, I've even been in a similar situation before, and it worked fine. In some ways, I would say it was actually more ideal for me, since I'm not really into the "standard" sexual acts (like PIV and oral). Granted, the person I was with at the time was a sex-repulsed sexual (not asexual) so even though they didn't want to do certain sexual acts, they still experienced sexual desire and passion, so that aspect wasn't absent (as it would have been if they were asexual).

 

If I'm with an asexual, I prefer to have a nonsexual relationship with them. Having sex with someone who lacks the desire doesn't sound appealing at all. Plus, even though I'm not asexual, having sex is by no means an easy or trivial undertaking for me. Sometimes, it's nice to have nonsexual relationships where I can cuddle without having to worry about sex.

 

1 hour ago, Snao Çoñé said:

I don't think it's asexuality that's leading people to make these largely inaccurate generalizations about sex and sexual people, but other factors (like learning styles, emotional intelligence, open mindedness, or general naivete) that they believe is part of their asexuality but really isn't. When I read the things that sexual people are saying about themselves and their thoughts and feelings and experiences, I think "Yeah, that makes sense, I can see that being the case" because I am adept at empathy and other ways of seeing another side. I know not everyone is like this and it may take more for them to understand these things, but we require an environment where they can be shown they're mistaken. We should not have an environment based around telling asexual people they're correct or around telling sexual people they're incorrect.

I felt the same way when I identified as asexual. I couldn't experience sexuality as sexual people experienced it, but I still made an effort to listen to what they were saying. I think I was able to arrive at a decent understanding. Plus, I knew that most people in my daily life are probably sexual, and I could tell that their sexuality didn't seem to hinder them the way some AVEN stereotypes would suggest. Since most people are sexual, I knew that many of the kind, intelligent, competent people I'd met were probably sexual too, even if they weren't broadcasting that fact to everyone.

 

...and that's what stumps me about a lot of these AVEN stereotypes. They've existed for so long, and yet it seems like these misunderstandings could be easily dispelled if people just took a look around. If they would stop fixating so much on the most vocal sexuals, they'd realize that sexual people are quite diverse, and many don't fit the stereotypes at all.

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Tarfeather
On 8/30/2017 at 7:38 AM, FictoVore. said:

I may as well give up regardless, the men I fall in love with keep leaving me so it's clearly pointless. It honestly feels like I'm the only one capable of loving someone eternally and everyone I end up with just gives up when they get bored :/ ..I clearly can't do anything right, no matter how loving I am. The men I love will still always get bored of me and move on :c

Amen to that. Not your exact statement there, more the sentiment behind it. It seems that when you've got a predisposition of, well, actually caring about people, you're setting yourself up for failure.

 

14 hours ago, Sally said:

You can't really say you're capable of loving someone eternally, since the ones you love eventually move on.  If they stayed, you might become bored to death with them.

I adore your style, Sally. You're as serene as the sunrise on a cold winter morning. No, honestly, I have no idea where that association came from, but that's literally what popped up in my mind when I read your post.

 

 

5 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

I was super drunk when I wrote that, lol, but for example I first fell in love with a guy online when I was 14 and if he hadn't fucked off I'd still happily be with him now I guess, I still think of him with a lot of fondness. I can't stand break-ups or even the idea of such, I'd rather just stay and love the person and do our best to make it work. But damn, people chicken out fast, it really does feel like I have some internal thing that doesn't switch off but for the people I've met and loved that thing is only skin deep and can be washed away after a particularly hot shower or whatever. Love, it seems, is this fickle thing that can just be cast aside in the blink of an eye to some people. How I keep finding those ones and falling for what they say about me being their dream come true and they'll love me forever yada yada is beyond me. Seems I'll almost be safer with someone who says 'i'll dump you as soon as I get slightly bored with you' because at least that person is honest :S This is off topic though. 

For my part, I've been on the other side of that thinking "this is the one" and so on far too often, only to later realize that I hadn't been truthful with myself, so I don't really trust myself on that part anymore. But even so, my partner's family keep being astounded that I'm putting up with her OCD and all.. they don't even know about the sexual incompatibility part, and yet they can't believe that I'd stay with someone who's as difficult to handle as her. Meanwhile to me those seem like really trivial things, and I wouldn't even consider leaving someone over any of that, not even the sexual incompatibility bit.

 

So, yup, I don't even think of my partner as "the one and only", and yet I'm still apparently more loyal to her than the average person would be to a partner who's sexually compatible and everything. That's rather worrying.

 

 

3 hours ago, Snao Çoñé said:

I don't think it's asexuality that's leading people to make these largely inaccurate generalizations about sex and sexual people, but other factors (like learning styles, emotional intelligence, open mindedness, or general naivete) that they believe is part of their asexuality but really isn't. When I read the things that sexual people are saying about themselves and their thoughts and feelings and experiences, I think "Yeah, that makes sense, I can see that being the case" because I am adept at empathy and other ways of seeing another side.

Regarding empathy.. It's something I really struggle with, because by nature I'm so alien to most people, that I can not naturally relate to others. Yet by exposing myself a lot to "normal" people, I've also learned much about being able to relate to people whose minds work fundamentally different to my own.

 

Without ill intent, Snow Cone, I don't think you have put quite so much effort into understanding people whose minds work in ways fundamentally different from yourself. You seem to get along rather well with the kind of people I usually have trouble relating to. I haven't seen you put much effort into relating to the people here on AVEN who are a bit "different". And I mean, why would you, we're in the minority, even on a site such as this, and there's not much to gain from being able to relate to those who don't fit in anywhere, but it really rubs me the wrong way for someone to boast about being "adept at empathy", when they so visibly put little effort into having empathy for those who maybe need it the most.

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Snao van der Cone
27 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

Without ill intent, Snow Cone, I don't think you have put quite so much effort into understanding people whose minds work in ways fundamentally different from yourself. You seem to get along rather well with the kind of people I usually have trouble relating to. I haven't seen you put much effort into relating to the people here on AVEN who are a bit "different". And I mean, why would you, we're in the minority, even on a site such as this, and there's not much to gain from being able to relate to those who don't fit in anywhere, but it really rubs me the wrong way for someone to boast about being "adept at empathy", when they so visibly put little effort into having empathy for those who maybe need it the most.

I haven't been spending much time in SPFA for a long while now, and I haven't seen you post much elsewhere, so I honestly have read very little of what you've posted lately. Perhaps that is in itself a failing of mine, as I'm not branching out to areas that don't pertain to me. If you think my assessment of my abilities is unreasonable, then I trust that you have a perspective of me that I don't, and I will keep that in mind next time I'm so blindly tempted to think well of my communication skills and character before adequately assessing my own blind spots and biases. Please do not take this as condescending or facetious; I genuinely did not consider your perspective from when we've interacted in the past.

 

Though, I often do feel like a lot is projected upon me as an easy target (and given the various advantages I have, I generally let it slide so the person expressing these frustrations can get things off their chest). But everyone has blind spots, and perhaps I can afford a larger one than others in some respects. Still, I do think part of my point stands, that I have benefitted from an ability to see from multiple angles, whereas asexual members who have made blanket statements about sexuals or sexuality that are easily shown as untrue haven't viewed from enough angles to see where that perspective might be incorrect. I may not be the kindest person, but I don't always believe my ways are absolute truth.

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Oktober Land
6 hours ago, Tarfeather said:

I haven't seen you put much effort into relating to the people here on AVEN who are a bit "different"

 

I'm a bit baffled by this statement :huh:

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Tarfeather
17 hours ago, Snao Çoñé said:

I haven't been spending much time in SPFA for a long while now, and I haven't seen you post much elsewhere, so I honestly have read very little of what you've posted lately. Perhaps that is in itself a failing of mine, as I'm not branching out to areas that don't pertain to me. If you think my assessment of my abilities is unreasonable, then I trust that you have a perspective of me that I don't, and I will keep that in mind next time I'm so blindly tempted to think well of my communication skills and character before adequately assessing my own blind spots and biases. Please do not take this as condescending or facetious; I genuinely did not consider your perspective from when we've interacted in the past.

 

Though, I often do feel like a lot is projected upon me as an easy target (and given the various advantages I have, I generally let it slide so the person expressing these frustrations can get things off their chest). But everyone has blind spots, and perhaps I can afford a larger one than others in some respects. Still, I do think part of my point stands, that I have benefitted from an ability to see from multiple angles, whereas asexual members who have made blanket statements about sexuals or sexuality that are easily shown as untrue haven't viewed from enough angles to see where that perspective might be incorrect. I may not be the kindest person, but I don't always believe my ways are absolute truth.

Sorry if my comment made you feel as an "easy target". That's certainly not how I see you, quite the opposite in fact. I don't disagree with the main point of your previous post, it's more that I encourage you to take it a step further from that.

 

As an example of what I mean: For some asexuals, I believe they have a certain view of sexuals in general, because this view matches their set of experiences. And it might not be easy for them to make different experiences, because the people around them are behaving that way due to cultural reasons, which makes it hard to find someone who behaves in a different way (maybe there are people who are different, but they don't announce it openly because the way they really are is not generally accepted).

 

So, it's not always the case that such an asexual has an issue with being naive or lacking emotional intelligence or anything like that. For a few of them, they're simply stuck in a situation where they can not make any different experiences, through no fault of their own. So, while from your perspective, their view is "wrong" (and you know it is because you have evidence to contradict them), actually given their situation, given the world they live in which might be a little less diverse than yours, it's a completely accurate view that will help them deal with the challenges in their life that much more effectively.

 

In such a case, rather than assuming the other to be wrong and trying to convince them of that, maybe it could be more helpful to come to understand exactly why they feel the way they do, and introducing them to your experiences which contradict their views from there. Not that I'm any good at that myself, as I said I lack the instinctive ability. I just think, if someone is really good at this empathy stuff, isn't that what they'd do? And in fact I've seen it from certain members on here like Serran. But maybe I just have no idea and am spouting nonsense.

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Telecaster68

Isn't...

 

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maybe it could be more helpful to come to understand exactly why they feel the way they do, and introducing them to your experiences which contradict their views from there.

... pretty much the same as ...

 

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we require an environment where they can be shown they're mistaken.

... which is what Snao said?

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Snao van der Cone
9 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

Sorry if my comment made you feel as an "easy target". That's certainly not how I see you, quite the opposite in fact. I don't disagree with the main point of your previous post, it's more that I encourage you to take it a step further from that.

I meant easy target as in I'm a regular poster who appears to be well received and more popular here, and thus less vulnerable. There is truth to that, so I try to acknowledge that me reacting with equal pushback would be harsher on them. I am aware of why people would feel things are tipped in my favour, so I do try to offset that and I find it helpful to be shown where I can improve.

 

14 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

As an example of what I mean: For some asexuals, I believe they have a certain view of sexuals in general, because this view matches their set of experiences. And it might not be easy for them to make different experiences, because the people around them are behaving that way due to cultural reasons, which makes it hard to find someone who behaves in a different way (maybe there are people who are different, but they don't announce it openly because the way they really are is not generally accepted).

 

So, it's not always the case that such an asexual has an issue with being naive or lacking emotional intelligence or anything like that. For a few of them, they're simply stuck in a situation where they can not make any different experiences, through no fault of their own. So, while from your perspective, their view is "wrong" (and you know it is because you have evidence to contradict them), actually given their situation, given the world they live in which might be a little less diverse than yours, it's a completely accurate view that will help them deal with the challenges in their life that much more effectively.

 

In such a case, rather than assuming the other to be wrong and trying to convince them of that, maybe it could be more helpful to come to understand exactly why they feel the way they do, and introducing them to your experiences which contradict their views from there. Not that I'm any good at that myself, as I said I lack the instinctive ability. I just think, if someone is really good at this empathy stuff, isn't that what they'd do? And in fact I've seen it from certain members on here like Serran. But maybe I just have no idea and am spouting nonsense

I'm thinking mostly of cases where there is persistent pushback against contrary evidence as given by people who have lived through what is being inaccurately presumed (eg sexual people's feelings and experiences). The starting point should be more understanding, and as I've just posted in the Site Comments thread (which is a hassle to link to right now as I'm on mobile), that comes down to communication styles. I'm going to use Skullery as an example because she's not here and I'm her friend anyway, but as we all know she can come off as abrasive even when what she says is true. Many times I've tried to offset posts with good information,  but were more about stating personal facts and less about building bridges, with more of a humanizing element. But I have my bitch moments as we're all aware. ;)

 

Anyway, AVEN has a lot of attitude issues that can and should be addressed, and the justification of ignorance, presumption, or judgment of sexual people is one of them. That was the gist of my post back there. I wasn't trying to toot my own horn.

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Tarfeather
53 minutes ago, Snao Çoñé said:

I meant easy target as in I'm a regular poster who appears to be well received and more popular here, and thus less vulnerable. There is truth to that, so I try to acknowledge that me reacting with equal pushback would be harsher on them. I am aware of why people would feel things are tipped in my favour, so I do try to offset that and I find it helpful to be shown where I can improve.

Feel free to. If I were worried about pushback, I wouldn't make posts like these.. well, be here at all, really. But the problem is more that we rob ourselves of meaningful discussion if we make it about "self vs other" in its various forms.

 

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I'm thinking mostly of cases where there is persistent pushback against contrary evidence as given by people who have lived through what is being inaccurately presumed (eg sexual people's feelings and experiences). The starting point should be more understanding

Yes, of course it should be, and I agree with you in general. Yet, sometimes the pushback may be justified, for instance when the views that person holds are psychologically necessary for them to deal with the situation they're in. Criticizing harmful viewpoints is a good idea, understanding where they come from and addressing that can be even better in some cases. Not that I think you or anyone should, just that these are options to think about in those cases when we genuinely wish to help someone.

 

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I'm going to use Skullery as an example

Oh no, here we go..

 

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because she's not here and I'm her friend anyway, but as we all know she can come off as abrasive even when what she says is true.

Yeah, no, that's exactly what I mean. I don't want to make any assumptions about what you actually believe here, but the way you talk, it very much comes off like you believe yourself to.. well, know stuff. And yeah, I know, it's very easy to get to a point where you have enough experience to have a world view that doesn't throw up too many contradictions, and so you believe yourself to have some idea of what the truth really is.

 

Do you know of the concept of confirmation bias? We all do that. We can at best strive to keep it to a minimum. The worst thing you can do, is to ever assume that you're right about things all the time because you're actually right, rather than just having a model of the world that just happens to work well enough, for your current situation.

 

About Skullery? She can come off as abrasive when she's absolutely sure that she's right, and usually that means she can convince anyone else in the room of her being right as well. That is not the same as being actually correct, however. You'll have to at least grant that much. Even really simple, straightforward, true ringing statements can be completely false, and that's what makes it so dangerous to speak in terms like "when what she says is true". You never really know that for sure.

 

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Anyway, AVEN has a lot of attitude issues that can and should be addressed, and the justification of ignorance, presumption, or judgment of sexual people is one of them. That was the gist of my post back there. I wasn't trying to toot my own horn.

Yep, I saw that part of your point in your first post, and I agree with it completely. That makes it boring to discuss, though..

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Snao van der Cone
6 minutes ago, Tarfeather said:

I agree with it completely. That makes it boring to discuss, though..

Want me to get contrarian for old times' sake? :lol:

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