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Treesarepretty

Blowing off some steam

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Music & Lyrics
19 hours ago, EarthMama said:

You...singularly...need help.  You need to work with a therapist or Councillor to break the conditioning she's instilled in you.  You need to develop the tools within your psyche to recognize the early signs of emotional manipulation and build shields to prevent this influence from rooting in your subconscious. 

This is such a smart point!  Although I really want to be clear that it's not your fault that this happened to you.  It's not 'you were weak so she became abusive because you let her'.  But abusers do tend to pick on a certain type of person - those who are forgiving, who internalise blame etc.  

 

And as @EarthMama says, if you keep responding to her abuse in the way that she wants, why would she stop doing it?  But having been abused for so long, you are probably somewhat worn down and more inclined to respond in the way that she wants.  So you need some help to break that cycle.

19 hours ago, EarthMama said:

SHE needs to come to terms with her personality on her own.  No amount of begging, badgering, bribery or brutality on your part will help her realize exactly WHAT she is.   She won't want to change her abusive tendencies as long as they are working for her.

<3  <3  <3

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Treesarepretty
11 hours ago, Music & Lyrics said:

Well, that's not entirely damning.  Couples who attend therapy are a self-selecting group, right?  They're the couples who are already having problems.  So if their divorce rates are higher than the general population (and I don't know if 38% is?), that doesn't mean that the counselling hasn't worked.  The fact that a majority stay together is encouraging.  As for the majority worse off after two years thing, is this where you read that?

http://guidedoc.com/does-marriage-counseling-work-statistics-facts

This article says that only a quarter report being worse off after two years.  Again, that means the majority are not worse off.  Which hardly supports the theory that counselors are effectively paid to keep arguments going.

Did you find this one?  It seems pretty balanced and evidence-based, and comes out in favour of counselling if done the right way :)

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-gaspard-msw-licsw/marriage-counseling-does-_b_4655577.html

It is the Huff article. The therapist I have chosen does specialize in couples therapy, so she fits into the article's advice. 

 

On 10/18/2017 at 11:37 AM, EarthMama said:

Trees, this is a thread and a half you've started.

Sorry it is so long and hard to read. 

 

Quote

Make no mistake - you are currently in an abusive relationship.  It may not have become physical abuse, but the damage she's exacted to your mental stability and emotional well-being are clear in your words.

 

When you're out from under her influence - you acknowledge your misery.  When you are back under her influence, you bury it as she has conditioned you to do.  Once you stand up to her, the honeymoon phase begins anew, until you've forgotten HOW to stand up to her, and the cycle of abuse begins all over again.

 

You...singularly...need help.  You need to work with a therapist or Councillor to break the conditioning she's instilled in you.  You need to develop the tools within your psyche to recognize the early signs of emotional manipulation and build shields to prevent this influence from rooting in your subconscious.   You need to learn to protect yourself, or you'll end up as a plaything for abusive women the rest of your life.

I keep reading this over and over. I don't have a response other than to say that I will take this one plan at a time. If she still won't go to the therapist with my insistance that it happen before we have kids... I will burn that bridge when I come to it. In the next week I have more immediate things. Getting my own therapist can wait a little while. 

 

Thank you for being so honest rather than pulling your punches. 

 

Truth be told, you are making me rethink the couples therapist. She has to work with the relationship that we have, and she isn't magic. If I don't have anything to offer my wife in exchange for her continuing to treat me well aside from threatening to leave if she doesn't, then that is a fundamental difficulty that a therapist wouldn't have a tool to help with, either. My wife frequently references game theory ideas from her time as an econ major and assumes that everyone thinks like her. One of the ideas that she keeps coming back to is that if I get enough sex to be satisfied then I will stop valuing it and may stop valuing her by extension, so therefore she must withhold sex the way that DeBiers withholds most if the supply of diamonds to make an abundant rock expensive by virtue or artificial rarity. So, coming back to game theory, what can a therapist actually say that would cause a person to do what they don't want to do without leverage? I need to think about this over the next week. Thank you. 

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EarthMama
16 hours ago, Treesarepretty said:

Sorry it is so long and hard to read. 

Long...yes.  Difficult to read...perhaps...but only because of the emotional rawness that bled through your text.  Your pain was evident in your words, which pushed me to reply.

 

16 hours ago, Treesarepretty said:

Thank you for being so honest rather than pulling your punches. 

It's something I'm told I do very well.  I think we'd do better as a species if there was a greater appreciation for brutal honesty.

 

16 hours ago, Treesarepretty said:

My wife frequently references game theory ideas from her time as an econ major and assumes that everyone thinks like her. One of the ideas that she keeps coming back to is that if I get enough sex to be satisfied then I will stop valuing it and may stop valuing her by extension, so therefore she must withhold sex the way that DeBiers withholds most if the supply of diamonds to make an abundant rock expensive by virtue or artificial rarity.

Sex is the most powerful form of currency on this entire planet.  It's can also be used as a weapon more potent than the A-bomb, or a reward more valuable than those artificially-rare De Beers rocks, if the person on the receiving end isn't aware it's being used as such.  Now that you recognize this, it loses some of its potency.

 

16 hours ago, Treesarepretty said:

So, coming back to game theory, what can a therapist actually say that would cause a person to do what they don't want to do without leverage? I need to think about this over the next week. Thank you. 

I don't have the answers for you on this one, other than to say that you do have them  -  you just have to tease them out of your psyche.  We all carry different truths within our hearts...you have to find yours, and cherish them once you bring them out.

Think on your situation.  Then think some more.  When you've discovered your truth, you'll be ready to act on it...no matter what it is.

 

 

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darkwinterbird
On 8/29/2017 at 10:30 PM, Treesarepretty said:

 I think that "abuse" is inaccurate. She doesn't cheat on me or try to beat me up; I have 11 inches and about 50 lbs on her, so that isn't even possible anyway. 

Mental cruelty is a form of abuse.  And it seems to me that she is very cruel to you.  

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Music & Lyrics
On 10/20/2017 at 3:11 AM, Treesarepretty said:

I don't have a response other than to say that I will take this one plan at a time. If she still won't go to the therapist with my insistance that it happen before we have kids... I will burn that bridge when I come to it. In the next week I have more immediate things. Getting my own therapist can wait a little while. 

I agree Trees.  You have a professional who has helped you figure out a good plan.  Don't get led off that plan by some people on the internet!  But do bare in mind what @EarthMama said and when it's time to consider the next stage of your plan, that's the time to take it into account :)

 

On 10/20/2017 at 3:11 AM, Treesarepretty said:

Truth be told, you are making me rethink the couples therapist.

I'd avoid that kind of thinking - it's so easy to fall into, especially under stress.  Every time anyone says anything, you rethink everything.  You have a good plan.  Take others' advice into account when it's time to develop the next stages of your plan.  But don't keep changing what you're doing based on what others say!

 

On 10/20/2017 at 8:57 PM, EarthMama said:

Sex is the most powerful form of currency on this entire planet.  It's can also be used as a weapon more potent than the A-bomb

...little over-dramatic? Haha ;) 

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Treesarepretty
3 hours ago, Music & Lyrics said:

I'd avoid that kind of thinking - it's so easy to fall into, especially under stress.  Every time anyone says anything, you rethink everything.  You have a good plan.  Take others' advice into account when it's time to develop the next stages of your plan.  But don't keep changing what you're doing based on what others say!

What I meant is that I am starting to think hard about what I will consider proof that I won't have to threaten leaving in order to continue to have my wife treat me well. I had considered the therapist giving an "okay" as good enough, but I don't know if that should really be enough. Therapists aren't psychic just like they're not magic. The question of what the therapist can do without leverage is rhetorical on this forum. I need to ask her directly in order to get a real answer.

 

I have not given up on therapy. Thanks for your concern, though. ☺

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Treesarepretty

I am nearing the end of this thread. 

 

Things are going terribly. I keep insisting on therapy and she keeps saying no. Last weekend we had a fight when she tried to rewrite our history to convince me that she did all of the shopping, putting things away, and most of the cleaning. I called bs on this and said that it worried me that she is trying to make me feel guilty for not doing my part when in reality I DID my part. She then went back to saying that she felt taken for granted. 

 

My requirement that we get counselling before kids hasn't worked, neither did my threat to leave. She stood against the door and after trying to force her off of it I could tell that if I really wanted to go then I would have to physically hurt her to get her out of the way. Leaving my wedding ring on the bathroom counter during our fight also didn't get more of a response than for her to pick it up and bring it back to me and say, "I hope you know that just taking off the ring doesn't change the fact that you are married to me."  

 

She fought with me a second time, today, when it turned out that she had forgotten that I wanted us to see a counsellor. She is now using something I said in the past to try to make me feel too guilty to leave, and that is the many times early in our marriage when I told her that the only way I would ever leave her is through death. 

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roland.o

I'm sorry that you have to go through this.

 

19 hours ago, Treesarepretty said:

She is now using something I said in the past

Everyone makes mistakes. It's something one has to learn to live with. You're lucky if your biggest mistake is saying something that turned out not to be true. That was a forward-looking statement, and nobody can predict the future.

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/10/20/no-predict/

 

Time to cut your losses, isn't it?

 

19 hours ago, Treesarepretty said:

She stood against the door

She'll have to let you go to work, I hope.

 

I wish you all the best for the future! :cake:

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Music & Lyrics

That's so sad Trees :(

 

I'm so sorry counselling has not solved anything for you so far.  What do you think your options are now?  What does your heart tell you to do?

 

As for trapping you in the room, again this is common and I'm pretty sure it's illegal.  Have you thought about threatening to call the police if she tries that one again?  Or filming her as evidence of the abuse?

 

http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/areas_criminal_litigation/false_imprisonment.html

 

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Philip027
Quote

My requirement that we get counselling before kids hasn't worked, neither did my threat to leave. She stood against the door and after trying to force her off of it I could tell that if I really wanted to go then I would have to physically hurt her to get her out of the way. Leaving my wedding ring on the bathroom counter during our fight also didn't get more of a response than for her to pick it up and bring it back to me and say, "I hope you know that just taking off the ring doesn't change the fact that you are married to me."  

I honestly really don't get why you are still there.  The alarm bells she's setting off for me can't ring much louder.

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Treesarepretty
On 11/20/2017 at 12:42 PM, roland.o said:

Time to cut your losses, isn't it?

 

On 11/26/2017 at 4:53 PM, Philip027 said:

The alarm bells she's setting off for me can't ring much louder.

I know that you two are right. So is telecaster and so is fictovor. I need to leave. It is just hard because I have been with her for almost 12 years at this point and we still have good times together, like this weekend at a Christmas fair. One of the things I am using this thread for is to document for myself what my complaints are and why I think they are legitimate and why I should not simply drop them. Another is to keep a record of people shouting at me, "what the fuck are you doing?" so I feel the push to change things. 

 

On 11/26/2017 at 11:59 AM, Music & Lyrics said:

As for trapping you in the room, again this is common and I'm pretty sure it's illegal.  Have you thought about threatening to call the police if she tries that one again?  Or filming her as evidence of the abuse?

 

http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/areas_criminal_litigation/false_imprisonment.html

 

I could have forced her off of the door, but that would have required causing her physical harm, so I decided not to. I also didn't feel right calling the police for something I could resolve had I really wanted to. I think recording it is a good idea, though. Thanks. 

 

 

On 11/26/2017 at 11:59 AM, Music & Lyrics said:

That's so sad Trees :(

 

I'm so sorry counselling has not solved anything for you so far.  What do you think your options are now?  What does your heart tell you to do?

Divorce is the only remaining option. I need to GTFO. If I stay then we will have kids and she will certainly tell them that it was good that she didn't have-sex/agree-to-romance-after-kids/let-up-on-demands/go-to-therapy/apologise-for-disrespecting-my-family and that the evidence for that is that we're still together whereas the average American marriage only lasts 7 years or so. 

 

I have reached the point that I don't want sex from her anymore. I also don't want romance, or help with chores, or really anything. Maybe friendship, but that is a slippery slope and certainly doesn't require marriage. About two or three weeks ago I was asked by a friend irl why I am still here and the reason was that I cannot stand the idea of my wife alone and crying, particularly not alone and crying from being lectured by her parents on how she is a dissappointment for being the first person in her family to have been divorced. She usually needs me to provide support for her when she is with her parents so they don't get on her case too badly about excercising or eating healthy or having kids or (up until I graduated and got a job) getting her to push me to study and apply to jobs (because they apparently thought that I wasn't doing that already 😒), which is one reason why I stuck it out through Thanksgiving. My friend told me that that was a stupid reason to stay in the relationship. "Why should you do the emotional work on your part when she isn't doing her part?" Basically, it is HER fault that I am thinking about divorce, and it is her responsibility, not mine, to deal with whatever her consequences are. I know that this is true, but like I said above, it is hard letting go, especially when it is your first serious relationship and you just had a good weekend together. That being said... hard doesn't mean impossible. 

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Telecaster68

I think you might be surprised by her new found abilities to cope by herself when you leave. 

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Sally
21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think you might be surprised by her new found abilities to cope by herself when you leave. 

Indeed,  There's a possibility that she could find someone else to abuse, since it almost seems like she needs to do that.  And you say you don't want to leave because you've put 12 years in?  Do you want another 12 years of this misery?  Really?

 

We're not supposed to be this definite on AVEN but I will:   LEAVE.   NOW.  BEFORE SHE DOES SOMETHING PHYSICAL.

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Serran

I left a relationship after 10 years because it was toxic. It's hard but it is so much better in the end . She isn't a caring partner who respects you and you deserve that. Believe it and believe you will find something better if you put this behind you. Trust me, it's so much better to have a caring partner than one that manipulates and controls . 

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Philip027

I stumbled upon this on tvtropes and I decided to look further into it on wikipedia because I realized this may be pretty relevant to OP's situation:

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SunkCostFallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

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Music & Lyrics

Ok. If divorce is your decision, I support you one hundred per cent. I applaud your courage and integrity. 

 

Your friend shouldn't say it's stupid to be worried how your wife will feel after you leave her. Whatever you're feeling is legitimate. Be with that feeling,  but don't let it distract you from the decision to leave.

 

And please, have a think about what AVENITES can do to help you through this!

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roland.o
On 11/28/2017 at 12:53 PM, Serran said:

“Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.”Unknown

I love this one. And it's so fitting in this thread :D:cake:

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Thea2
On 28-11-2017 at 12:53 PM, Serran said:

I left a relationship after 10 years because it was toxic. It's hard but it is so much better in the end . She isn't a caring partner who respects you and you deserve that. Believe it and believe you will find something better if you put this behind you. Trust me, it's so much better to have a caring partner than one that manipulates and controls . 

Serran gives excellent advice, I think. I have not read the whole thread, but from what I have read I must say, please, please do not put an innocent child in such an awful situation, I would consider that immoral. Look after yourself and I am wishing you the very best. 

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Chimeric
On 11/28/2017 at 1:52 AM, Treesarepretty said:

and the reason was that I cannot stand the idea of my wife alone and crying, particularly not alone and crying from being lectured by her parents on how she is a dissappointment for being the first person in her family to have been divorced.

I'm recently divorced, and this was a huge struggle for me for a very long time. I had initiated the divorce, and even though it was absolutely the right thing for us to do and the signs could not have been more clear, the concept that I had abandoned him totally wrecked me for the better part of a year. The guilt was overwhelming.

 

You're clearly a very empathetic guy - the extent to which you've gone to understand why your wife is feeling what she's feeling and why she's doing what she's doing, and the actions you've taken to protect and repair your relationship are exceptional. You've done everything right. Unfortunately, I think that this means you're particularly prone to feeling especially guilty for a long time. It will probably hurt a lot.

 

It was helpful for me - and you may find it helpful, as well - to find a support system that reminded me why I had made the decision I had made, and that ultimately it was the better decision to have made. You seem systematic and logical and you've done a good job documenting your journey; reading through this thread as a diary will be helpful. It is also helpful to have someone to reach out to on those days you find yourself in a pit. 

 

But, it's also nice to know that the guilt does go away. And you'll be opening yourself up to the possibility of finding a partner who is much more appreciative and much better suited than the one you have now.

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Music & Lyrics

While you need a support system in real life as well, I think you can consider everyone on this thread volunteered to help you through the worst of it 

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Treesarepretty
10 hours ago, Chimeric said:

you've done a good job documenting your journey; reading through this thread as a diary will be helpful. It is also helpful to have someone to reach out to on those days you find yourself in a pit. 

 

6 hours ago, Music & Lyrics said:

While you need a support system in real life as well, I think you can consider everyone on this thread volunteered to help you through the worst of it 

Thank you. Yes, these are two reasons I have continued to post to this thread. I also gave my therapist a link to this thread, and after reading through it she told me that it looks like I have a really good support network here. She encouraged me to keep posting.

 

I like being on this forum to the point where I check back on it several times per day. I think I have read all the posts in this thread alone at least 4 times. 

 

Thank you all again. ❤

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Treesarepretty

This is my last post in this thread. It is here for documentation. I am now out of the apartment. 

 

Since my previous post, I STILL tried to get her to go to therapy, which led to her ordering The 5 Love Languages so that I "could finally understand" her. We took the love language quiz a couple years ago, and read some articles on it, so the book didn't turn out to be anything new. I read it in a few days, and then she read it. We talked about it, and I pointed out how I had already put the lessons into action after we'd taken the quiz the first time. (For example, her primary love language is receiving gifts, so every Christmas after I got my job I have bought her three gifts: one for her to open at each Christmas party we attended.) 

 

I still insisted that we see a counsellor, calling it a third party who is knowledgable about relationships, so she yelled that her parents could be the third party. 

 

The whole time that this is going on, she is trying to get pregnant. She has been taking fertility drugs and monitoring her ovulation. I keep telling her that I have a hard time getting it up and keeping it up because I don't feel comfortable having kids without some kind of assurance that we won't go back where we were 5 months ago. She gives me pep talks about how I need to "just power through it" and that I "need to start taking this seriously." I have sometimes told her that I like the sex even though I now dread it because I need her to be calm enough to let me get to sleep at some point. 

 

This morning we went to the fertility clinic because she wants to start the next, more effective, round of treatment. I asked the MD point blank if couples counsellors usually try to cause more problems so they can make more money. She said "no" and offered to refer us to someone that she works with often. I said yes, my wife said no, and we fought about it in the parking lot. She called me stupid, and said that I am always creating all of our problems. She also told me not to come home tonight, that I need to be greatful because all of my success is due to her and her parents, and criticized me for treating the car I drive as though it is mine even though it is a hand-me-down from her which she got as a hand-me-down from her parents. 

 

So, now I am using the wifi of a tea shop to write this post. I have opened an individual bank account, moved some money into it, and set it up with direct deposite. I have all the id's I need with me. I have all of the toiletries I need to get by with just a gym shower, and I have a couch to sleep on. I have also reparked the car so it won't be towed, and I am walking everywhere I need to go. I am not physically comfortable, and my emotions swing between lonliness, confidence, and anger, but I really do not want to go back. Now, to sleep! She only gave me 4 hours last night, and I want to make up for that. 

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Thea2

Well done 👍 for leaving her. Good luck 🍀, you can do it, you will be fine. 🍀🍀🍀🍰🍰🍰🌸🌸🌤🌤

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Lara Black

Good for you, I’m sure.

From what you described, these relationships seem toxic. Even if each of you loves the other in your own way, it doesn’t solve anything. You tried your best, and you can redirect your efforts to making yourself happy. Best wishes.

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Music & Lyrics

First day of the rest of your life. Congrats! 

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Chimeric

You're making the right decision. It's going to be a difficult road and there are going to be days where you're sure you've completely messed it up, but this is the right call. You will be so much better off in the longrun for it.

 

We're rootin' for ya, Trees (pun only kind of intended :lol:)!

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Evil
5 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

We're rootin' for ya, Trees (pun only kind of intended :lol:)!

Punintentional?

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Chimeric
7 minutes ago, Evil said:

Punintentional?

AVEN isn't letting me "like" things tonight, but :lol::lol::lol:

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