issues with hypoactive sexual desire disorder criteria

[Telecaster68]

Quote

She is saying that many men can be helped. She isn't saying desire can be manufactured at will, as you are

I'm not saying it can be manufactured at will. I'm saying its absence is comparatively rarely due to asexuality, and more often part of depression, ED, stress etc., and those things can benefit from therapy (not just for the sake of desire, but general health). As they're resolved, generally desire is one of the things that returns. It's only if the person was asexual all along - ie in 1% of cases - that it definitely won't return.

 

[JDP]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm not saying it can be manufactured at will. I'm saying its absence is comparatively rarely due to asexuality, and more often part of depression, ED, stress etc., and those things can benefit from therapy (not just for the sake of desire, but general health). As they're resolved, generally desire is one of the things that returns. It's only if the person was asexual all along - ie in 1% of cases - that it definitely won't return.

 

I never claimed asexuality is responsible for disappearance of desire. I'm just saying it happens and isn't amenable to therapy.

 

I have given great thought to this and if I thought therapy would help, I'd find one. I was in analysis long enough to know, however, that sexual desire in a man can simply vanish. It happens to millions of men.

 

The presumption among sexuals, since you appear to be their chief spokesman, is that desire is always there in a sexual and just needs to be uncovered or helped along.

 

That is an emotional, irrational claim based on blind faith, not on science. 

[Telecaster68]

Quote

I'm just saying it happens and isn't amenable to therapy.

And I've demonstrated that it more often is amenable to therapy (as a side effect) than it isn't.

 

I agree it can simply vanish. I'm saying it's far from inevitable.

 

Quote

The presumption among sexuals, since you appear to be their chief spokesman, is that desire is always there in a sexual and just needs to be uncovered or helped along.

If desire was never there, a person wouldn't be a sexual.

[vega57]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

 

If desire was never there, a person wouldn't be a sexual.

How does "desire" become "desire" in the first place?

[Telecaster68]

 

[vega57]

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

 

I think asexjoe is right.  You're confusing libido with desire.  One can have a strong libido and yet have no desire for partnered sex. 

[Telecaster68]

Yeah I used the word once interchangeably, because that's how the rest of the world outside AVEN uses it.  Consider it changed to 'desire'. I'd go back and edit but all the subsequent nitpicking would just look incomprehensible.

[everywhere and nowhere]

19 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

Guys even have a piII they can take (and I'm Iooking forward to the day they invent the femaIe version of that piII, haha) ...So yeah, you can't change an ace, but there are many things you can try to bring desire back for a sexuaI!

Viagra doesn't increase desire. It helps with a purely physiological process when desire is already there.

And just in case I feel it should be repeated over and over:

Filbanserin is NOT "Viagra for women"!

Filbanserin is NOT "Viagra for women"!

Filbanserin is NOT "Viagra for women"!

[everywhere and nowhere]

And as for DeLuzio Chasin... perhaps I don't remember her paper well enough, but I don't think she argues that anyone "lacking" sexual desire is asexual. She rather argues that if we accept that asexuals may not want sex, why don't we accept the same for everyone else?

I agree with that also because I'm not really a fan of labels. I don't really respect science that much and I prefer literature and philosophy over psychology, I believe they explain our thoughtfeeling better. So for me it's not decisive whether a person "is asexual" or "not". In a sense there's no such thing as asexuality, there are only unique personalities and experiences of many different people who feel like that this label can describe them well - there are millions of asexualities, not a single "Asexualität an sich". So perhaps the distiction between "whether a person is asexual or not" is meaningless because we are arguing over terms and the actual experience always stays behind...

[Guest]

 

2 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said:

Viagra doesn't increase desire. It helps with a purely physiological process when desire is already there.

And just in case I feel it should be repeated over and over:

Filbanserin is NOT "Viagra for women"!

Filbanserin is NOT "Viagra for women"!

Filbanserin is NOT "Viagra for women"!wome

That was just one example among the many I gave. What I meant was that in my case, if you could give me a drug that would literally cause me to have clitoral erections, I would take it. The underlying desire to enjoy sex is there much of the time, my body usually just doesn't respond to that desire.

 

HOWEVER there are also times when I just don't want to have sex, no matter what my libido is doing.. and many times that no matter how anti-sex my body is being (won't get aroused or anything) I still inwardly desire sex and would have other sex acts that don't require my 'libido' (any form of arousal etc) to be involved. And yes, I think everyone knows that filbanserin isn't viagra for women? As a female who experiences the 'lady version' of ED, I know full well that a viagra for women doesn't exist yet (unless you take welbutrin haha but that's a different kettle of fish). Anyway, the overall point of the post I was making (which was about a lot more than just viagra) is that someone can lose their desire for sex completely for a day or a week or a month, as a result of stress, illness, grief, even being too tired can stop some people wanting sex lol.. You can completely lose that desire then be right as rain once those issues have been cured. Also ED can make people stop desiring sex because they're too embarrassed to have it or whatever, and viagra gives them that confidence back to actively engage in sex again once the ED is resolved. These things are often intermingled like that.. one leads to the other which leads to the other.

 

6 hours ago, vega57 said:

I think asexjoe is right.  You're confusing libido with desire.  One can have a strong libido and yet have no desire for partnered sex. 

well I have experienced libido without desire, desire without libido, both at the same time, and neither at all, depending on what was going on my life at the time. Of course one can have a libido and no desire for partnered sex, and one can also have no libido and still have the desire. Though of course that depends on how we are defining these things because it seems people define them differently depending on what they personally believe.

 

 

7 hours ago, asexjoe said:

I never claimed asexuality is responsible for disappearance of desire. I'm just saying it happens and isn't amenable to therapy.

 

I have given great thought to this and if I thought therapy would help, I'd find one. I was in analysis long enough to know, however, that sexual desire in a man can simply vanish. It happens to millions of men.

 

The presumption among sexuals, since you appear to be their chief spokesman, is that desire is always there in a sexual and just needs to be uncovered or helped along.

 

That is an emotional, irrational claim based on blind faith, not on science. 

What we are saying is that if you're asexual, therapy won't help. No kind of treatment will. But if you're sexual, there ARE things that could potentially help a sexual who is having desire issues. For sexual people, desire can disappear for many reasons.. like right now, I don't want to have sex. Even if the person I love walked in right now and said 'how about some sex?' I'd be like 'naaaah'. My libido is healthy at the moment, I just don't desire sex. And there are men who can feel that way temporarily too depending on whatever is going on in their life at the time. I have 0 desire right now but that doesn't mean I wont wake up tomorrow with my desire at 100. And if it didn't come back (whether I was male or female) there are things a doctor would recommend to help me get it back. These things will work for many people, they won't work for others, and for asexuals they definitely won't work, but it's definitely possible for many sexual people to get their desire back once they have lost it.

 

Sexual people don't just have this constant state of desire for sex.. regardless of libido or anything else, the underlying desire ebbs and flows. There are even hypersexuals out there who sometimes just dont desire sex. Say their dog just died, they're super sick with the flu, maybe they just lost their job, whatever.. it's practically impossible for many people to maintain a desire for sex when you're in a state like that, but it will come back after you've calmed down, the grief has passed, your flu passes, whatever. Obviously though this isn't the case for asexuals, they won't want sex no matter what you do.

[JDP]

1 minute ago, FictoVore. said:

this isn't the case for asexuals, they won't want sex no matter what you do.

I'm not opposed to sex. I simply won't be forced into it by a woman's need to be desired. Whether or not that makes me "asexual" is debatable.

 

I simply prefer sex that doesn't have as its goal this peculiar, wholly unfamiliar and unattainable (to me) thing called intimacy.

 

Sex should be fun, not goal-oriented.

[Homer]

10 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

Sex should be fun, not goal-oriented.

That would make fun a goal.

[JDP]

Just now, Homer said:

That would make fun a goal.

I suppose, but it's achievable.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

I'm not opposed to sex. I simply won't be forced into it by a woman's need to be desired. Whether or not that makes me "asexual" is debatable.

 

I simply prefer sex that doesn't have as its goal this peculiar, wholly unfamiliar and unattainable (to me) thing called intimacy.

 

Sex should be fun, not goal-oriented.

Hah well what I meant is you can't 'cure' the lack of desire for sex in an asexual in the same way you can't make a homosexual man into a heterosexual man. Desire issues in sexual people can potentially be cured, but an asexuals lack of desire for sex is a result of their asexuality, it can't be medicated out of them or whatever.

 

Oh and a lot of people have sex for that very reason, because it's fun and pleasurable. For couples, it can be a deeply intimacy experience.. but we have even had sexuals on AVEN who say they have it with strangers purely so they can experience the physical sensations with someone else. Obviously that's quite extreme, but I'm just trying to emphasize that it's not always about intimacy for all sexuals. I've even known 'bachelors' who have a new girlfriend every few weeks because they enjoy the sex but cut things off as soon as things get too 'intimate'. I've met less females like that but there are definitely women out there who prefer it that way also :3 

 

And do you mean that if your wife literally just wanted sex for fun but didn't care about intimacy, you'd be able to actively enjoy and want sex with her? Sorry if that's personal, I just ask out of curiosity!

[Telecaster68]

Couples can have fun sex as well. 

[JDP]

8 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

if your wife literally just wanted sex for fun but didn't care about intimacy, you'd be able to actively enjoy and want sex with her

Hell yes, but that's not what she wants.

[Telecaster68]

From how you described it before, I was getting the impression that what you found fun was probably more like a robotic routine to her. But since you got all coy at that point, I might well be wrong. 

[JDP]

I can't pass judgment on any woman's desire to be sexually desired and to feel desirable. It is what it is. It's not something I can change.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, asexjoe said:

Hell yes, but that's not what she wants.

but in that case, if you would be into that, then that IS sexual desire, no? So it's not like you don't desire sex, you just don't desire the type of sex your wife wants. So for you, the 'cure' to your lack of desire for sex would be your wife wanting a different kind of sex?

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Couples can have fun sex as well. 

I think Joe was saying he wants the fun without his wife's desire for intimacy? Whereas for many couples, the intimacy is an aspect of the fun. Or you can have sex without the intimacy aspect if you both desire that (I do enjoy that sometimes when in love, pretending you're both strangers or whatever)..but yeah, I think Joe was saying he wants it without his wife's desire for intimacy, I could be wrong though, my head is a bit all over the place today.

[JDP]

Just now, FictoVore. said:

but in that case, if you would be into that, then that IS sexual desire, no? So it's not like you don't desire sex, you just don't desire the type of sex your wife wants. So for you, the 'cure' to your lack of desire for sex would be your wife wanting a different kind of sex?

I'm not sure what kind of sex I would actually desire, Ficto. It's been six years and I don't miss it at all.

 

It would be a fun activity, like riding two-up on my motorcycle or going out to eat (which she doesn't do any more, either). It would be fun for me to get her off like I used to.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, asexjoe said:

I'm not sure what kind of sex I would actually desire, Ficto. It's been six years and I don't miss it at all.

 

It would be a fun activity, like riding two-up on my motorcycle or going out to eat (which she doesn't do any more, either). It would be fun for me to get her off like I used to.

Hmmm see for me, desire is knowing I would enjoy it to the extent of possibly choosing to having it for pleasure/fun under certain specific circumstances. It might be different for others, but I know I'd enjoy giving oral sex, for example, so I desire it due to knowing I would enjoy it. In the same way I desire playing Path of Exile online, because I know how much I enjoy it. However at the same time (like you) I don't 'miss' sex. I haven't physically had sex in six years now and I don't mind if I never have it again. I love having it online when I have an online partner, but also don't miss going without it. So for me, what I describe as 'desire' is knowing I would enjoy it to the extent of possibly actually choosing to have it under the right circumstances (though for me it goes further in that sometimes I can actually feel that desire deep in my body - not like arousal, I mean like, an ache of knowing how much I would enjoy doing this thing).. If any of that makes sense?. But yes I always defined desire as: if you know you could enjoy this thing under certain circumstances to the extent that under those circumstances you might actually do it, that's a type of desire even if it's not that important to you. I certainly desire to play Path of Exile, because I LOVE playing it, but I haven't played it in a few months now and don't actually care if I didn't get to play it again. I just know I enjoy it enough that I would actively play it under certain circumstances to experience the fun of the game, and to me, knowing I enjoy it enough that I'd possibly actively choose to do it under some circumstances, that counts as desire for me. That's what I mean when I say 'I desire some types of partnered sex under some circumstances'.

[JDP]

2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Hmmm see for me, desire is knowing I would enjoy it to the extent of possibly choosing to having it for pleasure/fun under certain specific circumstances. It might be different for others, but I know I'd enjoy giving oral sex, for example, so I desire it due to knowing I would enjoy it. In the same way I desire playing Path of Exile online, because I know how much I enjoy it. However at the same time (like you) I don't 'miss' sex. I haven't physically had sex in six years now and I don't mind if I never have it again. I love having it online when I have an online partner, but also don't miss going without it. So for me, what I describe as 'desire' is knowing I would enjoy it to the extent of possibly actually choosing to have it under the right circumstances (though for me it goes further in that sometimes I can actually feel that desire deep in my body - not like arousal, I mean like, an ache of knowing how much I would enjoy doing this thing).. If any of that makes sense?. But yes I always defined desire as: if you know you could enjoy this thing under certain circumstances to the extent that under those circumstances you might actually do it, that's a type of desire even if it's not that important to you. I certainly desire to play Path of Exile, because I LOVE playing it, but I haven't played it in a few months now and don't actually care if I didn't get to play it again. I just know I enjoy it enough that I would actively play it under certain circumstances to experience the fun of the game, and to me, knowing I enjoy it enough that I'd possibly actively choose to do it under some circumstances, that counts as desire for me. That's what I mean when I say 'I desire some types of partnered sex under some circumstances'.

We're almost on the same page, I guess. I'd rather give oral sex than receive and I'd rather be online with a partner than in person. And it's been about six years for me, too, since I bumped uglies.

 

I don't even know what Path of Exile is. It kind of sounds like my bar mitzvah.

[m4rble]

On 8/28/2017 at 1:34 AM, Telecaster68 said:

That doesn't say her husband encouraged her. It implies they went together ie relationship counselling, and that's entirely appropriate when there's a problem in the relationship. 

It doesn't matter whether her husband encouraged her to get therapy or if they went to group therapy, the therapist still pathologized asexuality for the sake of her partner's distress and encouraged literal rape. That's what the actual problem is. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, asexjoe said:

I don't even know what Path of Exile is. It kind of sounds like my bar mitzvah.

 

 

 

Path of Exile  Completely free to play, no pay to win, extremely challenging! All that makes it the best game ever!!

[JDP]

Um ok. Thank you.

[Sally]

23 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

You may well be right, but as @FictoVore.said@FictoVore.said, if an asexual is perfectly happy they're not going to be talking to a therapist anyway, so there will be no pressure. If they're not happy, then considering whether its because of their lack of sexuality, or issues arising from it is a sensible thing to do. Its also completely legitimate for someone deeply affected by someone else's behaviour to be involved in working with them on a solution. Asexuals can of course always completely reject this, just as sexuals can leave.

But I'm not FictoVore.  I'm a straight-out asexual; never had any doubt about that even before I didn't know what the name for it was.

 

What I meant was that if a couple in which the man is sexual and the female is asexual visit a counselor, the sexual is likely to be the one that feels unhappy with the amount (or lack) of sex in the relationship.  The female asexual will likely feel both irritated and guilty.  Since many -- I'd say most -- relationship counselors don't understand that asexuality exists/that it's real, the counselor will likely better understand how the sexual man feels than the asexual woman.  You say your counseling experience was good; you're a sexual man and your wife is asexual, or at least doesn't want sex.   And in a mixed relationship, it's highly unlikely that either is going to be perfectly happy, so your reference to an asexual being perfectly happy is not appropriate to this situation.   I'm perfectly happy as an asexual now that my partner doesn't expect me to engage in sex; I was not happy when he (and I) did expect that.  

[Telecaster68]

Sally - 

 

We can assume both partners are unhappy because of the relationship,both because of the tensions in the relationship, and for the sexual, because of lack as sex as well. The asexual partner is happy (or at least hapoier)  with the amount of sex they're likely to be having.   I don't see why the asexual partner gets a free pass in trying to resolve it, which is what you seem to be implying should happen in order to avoid them facing the problem through counselling. 

[JDP]

A person, sexual or otherwise, gets a free pass when something is beyond his/her control to change.

 

It's called an irreconcilable difference.

[Telecaster68]

Yeah, it can end up there. But neither side gets a free pass when it comes to at least trying to find a solution, and it frequently seems that's what asexuals want.