Alt-right neo-nazis assault counter protesters

[warrigan]

24 minutes ago, Yato said:

I'm not protecting anyone that committed violence. I was trying to bring in the proper perspective that this is nothing new, and remind people that both sides are just as bad. Then explaining how the media marginalizes and skews violence against the Right, but exaggerates the tragedy of violence against the Left. Outsiders looking in would never know, because they only see our CNN 90% of the time. Which is exclusively Left-Leaning, along with most all of our major news outlets. If you only gauge USA by what you see on CNN, you will have have a very biased and false view of it. 

i'm fucking tired of right-wingers complaining about how they're silenced by the 'left-leaning bias.'  if you wanted to have people's humanity and dignity acknowledged and respected, you would have fucking voted in literally anyone elsew than the self-obsessed whiny douchebag that presides over the country right now.

 

and you literally fucking GOT the president you wanted, yet you complain about how you are ignored and have no representation?  yeah, right.  you can't have it both ways, it doesn't really work like that.

 

 

i'm filled with hurt and rage over what's happening and i can't hear this shit right now.

[funfetti]

1 hour ago, ABryonJ.maybe? said:

Removing monuments is not erasing history. They could be put in a museum where they could be properly contextualized. As it stands they are on public land and as such if the majority find them offensive then why not remove them?

They could also be put in a park far away from the city/town. Some of the former Soviet Bloc countries have done this, like Hungarian and Moldova (I believe). The communist statues were put in a park far from Budapest's city center. Visitors can go and take a look without offending most Hungarians (many of whom fought against the Soviet Union in 1956 and are still alive). I'm not sure if you can see if from the roadside, but I think there are some walls and shrubbery covering. 

 

I lived in New Orleans until just recently. I'm not sure what's going to happen to the statues. I think they wanted to put them in a museum, but it might be a no-go. An open air park outside of the city might serve the purpose if the people want. I'm assuming they might have to keep them enclosed for a bit given everything that's going on. I think Hungary's statue park took a couple of years to put together. I'm not for Communism, and I'm sure there are some Hungarians that are against the park (my family is part Hungarian by the way), but I find it to be a neat way to preserve history (and democracy), and learn about dictatorship without offending most people.   The architect of the Hungarian statue park said his park is not an "anti-propaganda" park, because that will be putting it on the same level as what dictatorships do. So, take it as is and learn from history. That's real democracy--without offending the majority.  If there are no spaces in the museums, this might be another option to consider. But having large Confederate statues all over the city (I'm also looking at you, Andrew Jackson), plus schools, plus public streets named after them, yeah, probably not a good idea--especially in cities where the whites are the minorities. That's just messed up.

[Guest]

There are ways to solve the problem without gang fights and murder that would be amicable to everyone. I'm sure of that. 

[apatrickwsu]

3 hours ago, Yato said:

Feel free to not argue with me. Most people don't, but I see that you are new so I won't be aggressive about it. I just wanted you to know that AVEN has more than just Left wingers on here. There are people from all sorts of walks of life, and political backgrounds. So just be careful of how you talk about any group, because the odds are someone here identifies as one of them. Even if they seem bad to you, and ok to insult. 

I'm going to call nazis, white nationalists, race realists and their entire group bad. Do you identify with them? I don't care, if you do I want you to know I think you are horrible.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Yatogami]

25 minutes ago, CaptainYesterday said:

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but we need one of those memes with the guy sweating over pressing two buttons, with "Generalizing groups of people are against the rules" and "Defend white supremacists by enforcing the rules," are the two choices.

 

Good luck, whoever mods this forum.

The meme is called "The daily struggle" meme, and one of my favorites. If you want to make your own, just google that. 

[funfetti]

I'm liberal. Alt-Right (er, um, national socialists) are not my friend. Anti-fa, y'all aren't my friend either. My parents lived under dictatorships. Those are places where they fucking kill you if you have a different opinion. Some people don't even know that Communists have killed other socialists, because they don't abide to their whatever-the-fuck-slapped-shit tyrannical form of government. In most dictatorships, you're not allowed to leave your country, so you have to escape. Both sides suck. Everyone fucking sucks. Go home. Stop hitting people.  My dad says this still doesn't top 1968 (death of Bobby Kennedy, MLK Jr, the DNC convention, etc). But damn, I'm so sick of everyone. Speaking of the DNC, we can talk about how people's Bernie Sanders signs were ripped up at the convention, right? Oh, you want to unite the party? Yeah, good luck with that. Republicans, you're in the shit hole too. My dad's Republican and he's even upset at his own party--that's really fucking bad. I've never seen him like that. You want to reunite the country? Yeah, well everyone sucks. No one wants to listen. Hit people, punch people, torch shit, scream shit, be racist, what the fuck is this shit. No one wants to listen. Everyone wants to fight. Everyone fighting in the septic tank. Y'all are a bunch of cowards behind your sticks and your stupid paper shields. Meanwhile, the FCC is trying to end net neutrality, no consumer protection for student loan debt, Venezuela is becoming a failed state, and everyone is so damn distracted and so damn divided. I'm getting really old for this...leaving the internet for a good while. Holy shit, and I thought the news from all those kids dying in the Indian hospital would be the bad news of the day. Nope. Bye.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

8 hours ago, ABryonJ.maybe? said:

There are ways to solve the problem without gang fights and murder that would be amicable to everyone. I'm sure of that. 

I think the problem with this is that, while the statues could be removed in a way which would theoretically have satisfied the fascist and neo-nazis' demands, there's a behaviour which they have which we would not be able to deal with without having to come out and counter-protest all the effing time. If the opinion of someone is heard in actions in the community to support them, and that person is someone who fascists don't believe should be heard, they'll probably start a protest. You can't actually satisfy them because their ideology is formed of inventing conspiracy theories to prove that they should be allowed to "speak out" in such a way, and that they are somehow oppressed. I mean there's a small neo-nazi group which occasionally protests my university. Why? One of their cleaners was fired by it. Why did they fire him? He was an anti-semitic white supremacist who was in prison for years after publishing a magazine(online) in which they told people how to
(TW Violent antisemitism, it's pretty disturbing if you're Jewish I imagine)
 

Spoiler

MAKE NAIL BOMBS and suggested they SET FIRE TO SYNAGOGUES. They had a fucking prize for the readers.

And the university didn't realise this until afterwards. May I say these people are still white supremacists and seem to have tried to set up other movements.

Now I'm not trying to derail the thread but I think it's important to realise that for people like these, the cause which they use to explain their actions to you isn't necessarily the actual cause. And this is the reason why I agree with a ContraPoints video where they spoke of how useful debate is in politics, in that when someone's spoken motivations aren't their true ones, it's not worth debating them because they can stir up hatred for people without actually using bigoted language, in a covert manner, and noone else will agree with no-platforming them either I suspect.

[Binary_fiction]

4 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I think the problem with this is that, while the statues could be removed in a way which would theoretically have satisfied the fascist and neo-nazis' demands, there's a behaviour which they have which we would not be able to deal with without having to come out and counter-protest all the effing time. If the opinion of someone is heard in actions in the community to support them, and that person is someone who fascists don't believe should be heard, they'll probably start a protest. You can't actually satisfy them because their ideology is formed of inventing conspiracy theories to prove that they should be allowed to "speak out" in such a way, and that they are somehow oppressed. I mean there's a small neo-nazi group which occasionally protests my university. Why? One of their cleaners was fired by it. Why did they fire him? He was an anti-semitic white supremacist who was in prison for years after publishing a magazine(online) in which they told people how to
(TW Violent antisemitism, it's pretty disturbing if you're Jewish I imagine)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

MAKE NAIL BOMBS and suggested they SET FIRE TO SYNAGOGUES. They had a fucking prize for the readers.

And the university didn't realise this until afterwards. May I say these people are still white supremacists and seem to have tried to set up other movements.

Now I'm not trying to derail the thread but I think it's important to realise that for people like these, the cause which they use to explain their actions to you isn't necessarily the actual cause. And this is the reason why I agree with a ContraPoints video where they spoke of how useful debate is in politics, in that when someone's spoken motivations aren't their true ones, it's not worth debating them because they can stir up hatred for people without actually using bigoted language, in a covert manner, and noone else will agree with no-platforming them either I suspect.

The real cause is never the actual cause for people like these and they live to deceive others. The problem is that they also deceive their own members as well and while the political and social control is swept under the rug, the agressive agenda presented in front of us is what motivates the masses tho. As a result, when the movement gain momentum, the acts of violence escalate and become more numerous, giving even more momentum until something has to be done to stop them or until it reaches a climax involving death and terrorism.

 

You're right when you say that violent antisemitism is disturbing to a Jew and while we aren't the only targets of this white supremacist movement, I still can't help but feel that that the nazi movement is healthier than it ever was. It makes me feel very unsafe to know that some people actually think we should listen and acknowledge the ideology of a madman who was driven to exterminate us all. The world fought in a war, one of the deadliest war there ever was, only for that ideology to come back even stronger than before. When the group was a foreign force, nowhere near us, we could breathe but what happens when a movement driven by their motivation to put you in an oven is not only next door but also being legitimized as a valid current of idea? 

 

I don't want to make it all about Jews here as this would be erasing the victims of the atrocities committed these past few days by those supremacist. These people however, have to be stopped. They need to be gone and while debate requires different ideas, I don't believe that an ideology which promotes death, destruction, a supreme race and homogenization of the population, is an idea worth keeping. Feel free to show me how allowing nazism to thrive would make the world a better place and I'll hear their plea but until then, I believe that my right to live as a trans, asexual, Jewish individual is at stake here and I will fight to drive those ideas away with every fibers of my being.

 

P.S.: To those same nazi, everyone who has an alternative sexuality is deemed deviant which means that basically, asexuality would be labelled as a weakness and be subject to the same threatment as others who are unwanted by the party.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

@Binary_fiction I do think one reason it can feel less safe in the political environment today is because the way we are educated about things like wars and violence is that nothing within our own culture contributes, or has ever contributed, to that violence. I.e. all these people who say racism, sexism etc is over have basically picked these views up from childhood because they learn about racism, sexism etc. from history books rather than case studies in sociology(which would be useful to everyone in my opinion).

On the other hand, you start to see how fascism often comes up in many communities, and the systems we're under politically and economically just barely keep it bubbling under the surface. For example, hearing about how the KKK and the police would team up to keep black people from arming themselves against those who would target them is very different from simply living in America and I don't know, studying the civil war and MLK's(less offensive to white fragility) speeches, in the same way that documentaries around the world wars seem less shocking to me than realising that much of Britain would also have tolerated fascist views until and after they decided it was in their interest to fight Hitler, or how Churchill caused his own famine and basically genocide in India while doing so. I don't know, I'm just constantly shocked at how unequally history is taught to us as children and think this creates a feeling of safety, that there is no more conflict in the world at present, while the very culture we live in actively rewards people who like deceiving others in order to reach a position of power they can exploit.

I only talk about depressing stuff I'm afraid

Also nazis are way too widespread now, you're absolutely right. Richard Spencer, a guy who was literally giving advice to them on how to disguise their views to attract a wider audience, deserved a whole lot more than a punch. Contrapoints(may cultural marxists everywhere bless them ) did a video on debating nazis which is absolutely brilliant and was based on a play someone wrote, though I suspect there are philosophical points around some of it which flew by me, and basically just shows how shallow the views liberals have on remaining neutral are, in the face of actual nazis they never quite seem to recognise as such.

[ThaHoward]

It's pretty sick to look at some of them. Yesterday I saw plenty in army uniforms with body armor and kevlar/composite helmets and riot gear and weapons. Thought it was military forces who was sent to establish order, but it was some "patriot" militia group. You don't dress for combat to have a peaceful demonstration. Also it was an unlawful one. The blame is on the right wing extremists.

 

Most conservatives have already condemned it, including Ted Cruz and members of the Administration. Trump and alt-right would be good to do the same. But again Trump would lose many supporters..

[loomborn]

On 13/8/2017 at 0:02 AM, Yato said:

It is no one's fault, but the person who did the act of violence. Violence happens at riots, that's just how it is. Its a social phenomena called hysteria. People go crazy in charged events like this, and are not usually at 100% rational capability. It's tragic, and sad that it ended up that way. 

normal people dont RUN OVER other people with their CARS. are you serious??  that was not hysteria, that was Hatred. you have no idea about anything and you don't want to because you sympathize with their ideology. 

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[JDP]

I don't get my news from either television or the leftist newspapers. I wait for a reasoned assessment, which often doesn't come until months or years later.

 

Most of the people in this august forum can't see the forest for the trees on this issue. There are people in this country that want to rumble. Their political ideologies are subordinate to the psychic pleasure derived from in-your-face confrontation and combat. They love it.

 

I'm embarrassed that the president of the United States felt it necessary to comment on this at all. Riots in North Carolina are not matters of state. Let the North Carolinians handle it.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Skycaptain]

7 hours ago, loomborn said:

normal people dont RUN OVER other people with their CARS. are you serious??  that was not hysteria, that was Hatred. you have no idea about anything and you don't want to because you sympathize with their ideology. 

It's not just far-right and far-left sympathisers who do that. I live in a country where people commit similar crimes because they disagree with the perceived religion of victims 

 

Unfortunately no matter what the cause, there are always an idiot sociopathic minority, who don't care at all about it, but just treat anything they can grab hold of as an excuse to legitimise thuggish antisocial behaviour. 

[Yatogami]

7 hours ago, loomborn said:

normal people dont RUN OVER other people with their CARS. are you serious??  that was not hysteria, that was Hatred. you have no idea about anything and you don't want to because you sympathize with their ideology. 

I'm pretty sure a normal, sane person, can run over someone with a car under the influence of hysteria or fear. There are numerous videos online, of people driving into protesters because they didn't want their car destroyed, felt unsafe, or were attacked. 

 

(Not referring to this incident btw, just others in general)

 

 

[Kelpie]

8 hours ago, CaptainYesterday said:

For anyone who was wondering, if it wasn't already obvious, I don't think that John Oliver is responsible for what his viewers say and do.  I was pointing out his logical fallacy in saying that of Trump.

But that's not how society works. In a society, you're also responsible for what others do if you make them. I mean, you don't really think that Hitler was innocent because HE never killed someone? 

 

3 hours ago, Yato said:

(Not referring to this incident btw, just others in general)

where do you think hysteria played a part in this specific attack? 

[Binary_fiction]

They are nazi, they had nazi flags, they chanted nazi hymns and made nazi salut. FFS how much more do you need to call them nazi? You think that nazi don't exist or something? It's funny how people so easily call feminist "feminazi" or people who correct grammar "grammar nazi" but when an actual nazi show up people try their best to call them anything else but that.

[JDP]

They are what they are, but what they do and say is not per se illegal.

 

American anti-Semitism is nothing new. For all the anxiety about the Nazis here, their point of view, which is undoubtedly popular among millions here, has not gained sufficient traction to dominate American politics.

 

It's not like they haven't had enough time or opportunity.

 

 

[Binary_fiction]

News flash, hate speech, death threats and running people over with cars IS illegal. I'm saying this just in case you didn't remember that those things are written in the law as a crime.

 

as a trans individual who also happens to be a Jew, your dismissal or this immediate threat to my people is disturbing at best.

[chair jockey]

A group of people decide to have a peaceful protest. They're going to march and chant and then everybody goes home.

 

Their political opponents don't like these people being permitted to express themselves peacefully, so they cynically and ruthlessly initiate violence in order to force the police to issue a dispersal order.

 

Then an undercover agent of this latter group poses as a member of the former group and drives his car into some of the latter group--his own allies!--in order to cast the former group in a bad light.

 

"Progressives" will argue that it's perfectly acceptable to get violent with people having a peaceful protest, and to recruit a homicidal maniac to pose as a member of a politically opposite group, because being "progressive" is Absolutely Good, and any atrocity committed in the name of Absolute Good is justified.

 

In this case it's the white supremacists who are the victims. The sheer psychosis exhibited by leftists with regard to this topic is frightening. Will those "progressives" justify suicide bombing next, in the name of The Cause? ... Oh, wait, suicide bombers are all CIA agents anyway, so never mind me.

[ThaHoward]

8 minutes ago, chair jockey said:

A group of people decide to have a peaceful protest. They're going to march and chant and then everybody goes home.

 

Their political opponents don't like these people being permitted to express themselves peacefully, so they cynically and ruthlessly initiate violence in order to force the police to issue a dispersal order.

 

Then an undercover agent of this latter group poses as a member of the former group and drives his car into some of the latter group--his own allies!--in order to cast the former group in a bad light.

 

"Progressives" will argue that it's perfectly acceptable to get violent with people having a peaceful protest, and to recruit a homicidal maniac to pose as a member of a politically opposite group, because being "progressive" is Absolutely Good, and any atrocity committed in the name of Absolute Good is justified.

 

In this case it's the white supremacists who are the victims. The sheer psychosis exhibited by leftists with regard to this topic is frightening. Will those "progressives" justify suicide bombing next, in the name of The Cause? ... Oh, wait, suicide bombers are all CIA agents anyway, so never mind me.

I hope you are sarcastic? The KKK, Nazis etc did not have a permisson as they got denied it. Now showing ip in uniforms which resemble US Army uniforms and body armor, riot gear and automatic rifles to keep "order" is not by any means peaceful. Not to speak of beating up random persons just for having another skin color and policemen who actually try to establish order. Do you think the police would have done so if these extremists had a peaceful demonstration and weren't litterally dressed for combat? Also the police had difficulty in keeping control as these citizens militias was better armed than them. And what is the proof for the driver being undercover?

[Binary_fiction]

Wow great alternative facts... Are you really implying that the person who did that did it only to frame the nazi, that they did not attack anyone and that they are the true victims here? The nazi?

 

Is it because you got your news from 4chan or something? The guy (James Alex Fields Jr) is a white supremacist. He has views that follow the neo-nazi movement and to live in denial that he did this and pretend that it's a "coup" made by extreme leftists is ridiculous at best. I never was a fan of conspiracy theory but this one cracked me up. You don't show up to a "peaceful" rally wearing full riot gear, especially when you outnumber your counterpart by a lot. You also don't run into people with your car in peaceful rallies and you don't bring torches with actual fire when people made open threat to torch certain places (synagogues).

 

furthermore, we learn about nazi so that we don't repeat the errors of the past. We learn in our history books that Hitler was a madman and that his "supreme race" idea was lunacy and unethical. We learn that the ideas of genocide and discrimination are to be removed from society. 60 millions people died in a war for us to learn this lesson. What are we doing? We are doing the exact thing that was happening in pre-nazi Germany. We have a bad economy, a group of nationalists is telling population that the Jews, Muslims, Arabs, black, brown, queer, trans are to blame for it and then people start believing them. The population needs a scapegoat and it's easier to be holding the handle of the axe than to be facing the blade.

 

Wake up before it's too late because once this movement has gained enough momentum, things like the Charlottesville terrorist attack will happen more often. Don't dismiss them as a minor threat and instead start acting now so that they don't become a major threat later on and then no one is safe to go out anymore. 

[ThaHoward]

12 hours ago, CaptainYesterday said:

Do you have a source that the protest was unlawful?  The last word I had was the a judge reinstated their protest after the mayor incorrectly cancelled it.

 

Also, people show up in equipment to defend themselves because other groups attack them.  In this case, it was Antifa.  If Antifa actually ever protested anything directly (rather than assault existing protests), then they would also probably show up in body armor.

The Mayor and police in Charlottesville for starters? The day after it happened they said in the morning on both Fox and NBC that it was that. But if it is fake news we got a problem..

 

And if you come in gear designed for aggressive combat and can't see how that is seen as threatening when they fly with confederate war flags, nazi flags and say Third Reich slogans and say stuff to take america back that is worrying. And especially destructive for the overall right who dismiss these groups and see them as a threat. Ronald Reagan, Ivanka, Cornder, Hatch, Cruz etc saw and see them as what they are.

[Binary_fiction]

5 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

And if you come in gear designed for aggressive combat and can't see how that is seen as threatening when they fly with confederate war flags, nazi flags and say Third Reich slogans and say stuff to take america back that is worrying. And especially destructive for the overall right who dismiss these groups and see them as a threat. Ronald Reagan, Ivanka, Cruz etc saw and see them as what they are.

I think people who try to justify their flags and action really are aligning with their view and try to defend them using 1st amendment rights.

 

At this point, I'm convinced that some people actually support what these nazi did or are in denial that such group still exist today. On my part, it's a great indication that I will be avoiding the states for a while and just hope that we will fight to repel these ideas here in Canada.

[JDP]

1 hour ago, Binary_fiction said:

News flash, hate speech, death threats and running people over with cars IS illegal. I'm saying this just in case you didn't remember that those things are written in the law as a crime.

 

as a trans individual who also happens to be a Jew, your dismissal or this immediate threat to my people is disturbing at best.

Hate speech is not a crime in the United States. It's as protected by the First Amendment, as it should, as any other speech.

 

Credible death threats against identified individuals are a crime, but airing hateful opinions about entire populations is not.

 

I lost a grandfather to the Germans, so you're flipping of the Jew card doesn't work on me. Jews are disproportionately represented in the ACLU here and they're the ones that successfully argued in the United States Supreme Court for the right of Nazis to march wherever they want.

 

You Canadians have an entirely different culture from us. You have your constitution. We have ours.

[CaptainYesterday]

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