Calling Cis-Women Who Present Masculine/Androgynous

[Science and Stage]

Can you talk about why you still feel and identify as a cis-woman despite not presenting femininely? I'm currently questioning my gender and am looking for some insight. I was AFAB, and definitely feel more comfortable presenting androgynously, but I'm having trouble figuring out whether I identify as a woman or non-binary. I've found some resources with non-binary people who talk about presenting masculine/androgynous, but I really haven't found anything where cis-women talk about identifying as female but present as masculine/androgynous. Any insight into how you experience your gender is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Oregano]

I feel I have always had a tendency to like "masculine" things. Prefering male deoderant over females as a small example... as well as since I was very young loving what UK catalogs often labelled "boys toys" which for some reason never left me feeling confused or gave me a feeling of being in the wrong body.

Even being able to talk to men and get a long with men much better than any other people.

 

Gender might be a social construct to most but to me I like to keep what I was born with as my identity. I often don't agree with some social norms so I suppose I don't see how it's different when it comes to my gender identity.

 

I also often prefer male clothing to female clothing. i hate wearing skirts I take preference over shorts; I hate dresses. I'm happy walking down the street in long tracksuit bottoms and a band/gaming t-shirt. That's where I feel most comfortable. Nobody seems to question it either. So I suppose people being uncaring or unnoticing of these traits of mine have been a helpful factor perhaps. I'm new to this though so maybe I'm wrong. Feel free to correct me!

[Miss Anne Thrope]

I have an androgynous gender presentation. I have a short androgynous hair, I avoid wearing makeup and dresses as much as I can, I have never bought a skirt, and the only jewellery I wear are two rings - my ace ring, and another that was a gift from my parents. I also prefer wearing more casual clothes, as nicer clothes made for women tend to be more feminine. I dress this way because it makes me the most comfortable. My mother thinks I avoid makeup out of laziness, but it's not that - there have been times where I actually put makeup on, felt uncomfortable, and took it off. I'm okay with presenting as feminine occasionally, but doing it too often or on days where I'm not feeling it leaves me feeling grumpy and sad. In fact, I first cut my hair this short in order to combat the feelings of having to dress up and wear makeup every weekday for my job; it helped neutralize my feelings (gradually wearing makeup less often helped too).

 

Even though I am uncomfortable presenting as feminine, I have felt no discomfort over being a female. I have always liked being a girl. I like the "female" parts of my body. Being referred to as a girl feels right to me. In fact, there have been a couple of times where someone had accidentally mistaken me for being male, and I am quick to correct them, because I don't want to be seen as a male. If someone were to refer to me as a non-binary person, it wouldn't bother me, but it wouldn't feel any better than being seen as a girl.

To my mind, I am undoubtedly a woman.

[Guest]

Hi there

 

Many women (edit: I just saw the post above mine now, she is the type of woman I am referring to here) don't necessarily present as 'feminine'.. I've known women who don't like dresses, cut their hair short, don't wear makeup, and prefer videogames to gardening.. That doesn't necessarily mean they are 'lacking in femininity' though imo. What it means is they aren't adhering to what society deems as 'feminine'. Makeup, dresses, long hair, nail-polish, those are only things society deems as 'feminine' but someone can be born with a vagina, display absolutely no 'feminine' characteristics (by societies standards) and still feel perfectly fine and comfortable calling herself a woman because her gender doesn't change just because she doesn't adhere to the way social constructs dictate she dress and behave.  All the women I've known like that don't even think about 'am I cis or not?'.. They're just comfortable as who they are, and what they want to wear or how they want to behave doesn't change their gender. Obviously I'm not referring to trans people here, trans people truly know they are a different gender inside than what their genitals would, er, 'dictate' if a doctor was to look at them.. if that makes sense?

 

The reason you don't see many 'cis' women talking about this is because (in non-millennial generations anyway) it's not an issue. Not wanting to wear dresses or makeup or be 'girly' is just how some women prefer to be (it used to be called 'tomboy' but a big deal was never made out of it). One girl I used to work with was addicted to working-out one half of her body so she was super muscly on one side, she refused to wear makeup, preferred to wear men's underwear, and wore hoodies and baggy pants (my boss practically had to pay her to put a dress on once, and then she refused to put on pretty shoes with the dress, instead insisting on wearing very dirty white socks with it lol).. ANYWAY, she never questioned or felt confused about her gender, she was still just a regular girl who wasn't ''into girly stuff'' (as she put it). She (and other women like her) don't feel uncomfortable with their gender in any way, they just prefer things that aren't necessarily 'feminine' and generally dislike 'girly' stuff. On the opposite side of things, you have 'cis' (I don't like that word, hence the little marks either side of it when I type it lol) males who don't feel uncomfortable with their gender, but love romance movies and buying fancy-leafed tea and enjoy lip-syncing to music and stuff like that, haha. I have a male friend like that and he's more girly than many girls I've met, yet he's perfectly comfortable with his gender. 'Masculinity' and 'femininity' are social constructs in a lot of cases (ie makeup, motorbikes, dresses, romance movies, videogames, hair length - all social constructs when it comes to which gender is 'meant' to like them).  However, how comfortable you feel *inside* with the gender that you are, that's different. That, imo, is what dictates how you identify (whether non-binary, man, woman, mermaid, whatever).. The IabeI that you feeI most comfortable identifying with is what should dictate how you identify. If you're perfectly comfortable with being a woman, and also love to shave your head, get tattoos of cars all over your body, and kill zombies on PlayStation, then that's awesome and you're totally not alone. If, however, identifying as woman makes you feel strange and uncomfortable (regardless of what you like to put on your face and body or how you cut your hair etc) then maybe something else like non-binary would be better suited to you, does that make sense?

 

This post wasn't intended to offend anyone and is just my opinion based on my personal experience, good luck with whatever you decide is best for you in the end OP

[LeChat]

1 hour ago, Science and Stage said:

Can you talk about why you still feel and identify as a cis-woman despite not presenting femininely? I'm currently questioning my gender and am looking for some insight. I was AFAB, and definitely feel more comfortable presenting androgynously, but I'm having trouble figuring out whether I identify as a woman or non-binary. I've found some resources with non-binary people who talk about presenting masculine/androgynous, but I really haven't found anything where cis-women talk about identifying as female but present as masculine/androgynous. Any insight into how you experience your gender is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

What helped me know that my gender identity was female and not non-binary or male, was hearing people in public refer to me as male. Before that, in my mind, I thought it'd be great to be male, rather than female, but actually hearing myself being called it in real life was a completely different experience: it, surprisingly, upset me. I didn't expect it to; it just did, because for some reason, inside me, my personal identity wanted to be recognized as female, despite not adhering to stereotypical feminine pursuits. So, when people refer to me as female, I don't feel upset; I feel fine with it.

 

It's basically, "How do you feel when people call you/assume you are a certain gender?" Upset? Happy? Neutral? etc.

 

[Astrochelonian]

All those things (dresses, makeup, etc.) are just stereotypes that have nothing to do with femininity or masculinity.  I'm biologically female, therefore I'm a woman, even if I don't embrace it or participate in "girly" activities.  Honestly, I'd happily remove and set my reproductive organs on fire (they are useless and painful), but that doesn't change the reality of what I am.

[999papercranes]

2 hours ago, Astrochelonian said:

All those things (dresses, makeup, etc.) are just stereotypes that have nothing to do with femininity or masculinity.  I'm biologically female, therefore I'm a woman, even if I don't embrace it or participate in "girly" activities.  Honestly, I'd happily remove and set my reproductive organs on fire (they are useless and painful), but that doesn't change the reality of what I am.

I'm sorry but being assigned female at birth doesn't in anyway automatically make someone a woman. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by that, but there are plenty of people (like me) who were born a "biological female" and identify otherwise. There's no "reality" that people like me need to accept... I hope this doesn't come off as rude, I'm just tired of people conflating sex and gender  

[Science and Stage]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

I guess the thing that I'm having trouble with is the reason behind the preference in presentation.

 

Would you feel uncomfortable if you were to put on a dress and makeup and generally present femininely? If so, how would you describe your discomfort? Do you feel unattractive? Do you feel dysphoric? Do you just prefer the masculine/androgynous look aesthetically? Do you feel disconnected from your body?

Do you feel differently when presenting masculine/androgynous? If so, can you describe the difference?

[Shellybelle6287]

On 8/3/2017 at 12:57 AM, Science and Stage said:

Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

I guess the thing that I'm having trouble with is the reason behind the preference in presentation.

 

Would you feel uncomfortable if you were to put on a dress and makeup and generally present femininely? If so, how would you describe your discomfort? Do you feel unattractive? Do you feel dysphoric? Do you just prefer the masculine/androgynous look aesthetically? Do you feel disconnected from your body?

Do you feel differently when presenting masculine/androgynous? If so, can you describe the difference?

I know this is old, but its new to me. I have always avoided 'feminine' things. So much to the point my parents basically hate me...I have always been tomboyish, and even by many ex's been called 'manly'. It used to bother me. Mainly because of how I was raised. Now days it doesn't. 

 

Upon research, I have realized that I don't consider myself 'cisgendered' 100%, due to one of the definitions of the term. I feel inside that it doesn't fit me, as I am gender nonconforming.

 

Cisgender is a term for people whose gender identity matches the sex that they were assigned at birth. Cisgender may also be defined as those who have "a gender identity or perform a gender role society considers appropriate for one's sex"

 

perform a gender role society considers appropriate for one's sex

 

I have used the strike through text and repeated the last line because that doesn't apply to me. I absolutely do not "perform a gender role society considers appropriate for one's sex". For example, I hate wearing dresses, and prefer jeans, tanktops or t-shirts, and plain flipflops over any girlie clothing. I rarely wear jewelry, except for necklaces that correspond to my favorite TV show and a couple of string bracelets I made myself. (One was made originally to hang my keyring flashlight on after Hurricane Maria.) I love cars and have no problem getting my hands greasy under the hood. I do maintain a long haircut, because I love long hair, on both guys and girls. I just think it looks nicer. Ive been told by many people that the way I look and carry myself is more masculine than what a 'traditional' woman should be. It is for these reasons I don't feel within myself that 'cisgendered' is a term that completely fits me. 

 

Being 31 years old, I always knew I was different, but never really questioned until now due to not really knowing there was anything out there besides either 'female', 'male', or 'trans'. So, I just went with 'female'. I'm now questioning this, because I now know there are many things out there. I am on a path to self discovery and maybe not hating myself as much.

[Dawning]

Gender and presentation are totally different things. Gender is how you feel inside, and presentation is how you choose to look on the outside. Presentation can be in large part dictated by one's society, culture, or religion, and not everyone is comfortable breaking away from that, regardless of their gender. Asexuals often don't want to be viewed in a sexual manner, and may dress in oversized clothing to deemphasize their bodies, regardless of their gender. People also like to be comfortable, and for some that means the softer fabrics that women's clothes are made of, to others that means things like sweatshirts that are basically androgynous, and to others that means the un-fussy styles of male clothing. There are lots of reasons people choose what they choose. Short hair is faster and easier to take care of. Not wearing makeup or not shaving is also a big timesaver. Unattractive flat shoes are far more comfortable; I should know, that's what I always wear. And I think people are realizing more and more that there is nothing inherently feminine or masculine about any item of clothing other than those meant to support specific body parts, bras and jockstraps and such.

 

Binary people don't spend too much time thinking about how they're presenting, they just wear whatever they like, whatever is comfortable, whatever they're used to, whatever is trendy, etc; plenty of non-binary folks are the same way (although obviously not all, as there are also plenty who are very specific about how they want to present). I have never once considered how I was presenting, I just want my body covered in clothes that aren't uncomfortable, in colors and patterns that draw my eyes, and I don't care what rack in what department it came off of… Actually, it's usually the sale rack, LOL. Does that answer your question at all?

[Karst]

I'm female mainly because it was the default option. I usually present as fairly androgynous, and my clothing choices favor function over form. I don't feel comfortable, generally, wearing feminine clothing that seems "sexy" or that would stop me from doing a 100-meter sprint. I spend a lot of time outdoors or walking places, and I hate feeling as though people might be staring at my body in a sexualized way.

 

 *lengthy rant about pockets in women's clothing removed for time*

[Comrade F&F]

Where I grew up, things that were often assigned as 'feminine' (such as makeup) were not for female only. Some men dyed their hair but were still men. Some women played sports but were still women. This just stuck. Heck, I wear men's jeans because the pockets work.

 

I'm not girly, but I'm not boyish either. In English it's just 'tomboy'. (Which still strikes me as weird because the word 'boy' is in there.)

 

 

[asexace]

Hi 

 

I'm female. And like the op, I never wear skirts dresses or blouses. I even hate wearing bras, and only where one when I have to. 

 

I dress in masculine attire. I hate makeup but wear it to hide my excess facial hair, and blemishes. 

 

I have short hair, and am deliberately trying to go for the androgynous look. Although people can tell that I am female. 

 

But I do really like the androgynous look like Annie Lennox, for example. 

[TheSilentScientist]

On 8/3/2017 at 12:57 AM, Science and Stage said:

Would you feel uncomfortable if you were to put on a dress and makeup and generally present femininely? If so, how would you describe your discomfort? Do you feel unattractive? Do you feel dysphoric? Do you just prefer the masculine/androgynous look aesthetically? Do you feel disconnected from your body?

Do you feel differently when presenting masculine/androgynous? If so, can you describe the difference?

Question 1. Yes

Question 2. I was forced to dress "feminine" for my sister's wedding. The moment I saw myself in the mirror, it was like my stomach twisted into knots and I looked at myself with utter repulsiveness. Looking in the mirror, I couldn't see myself even though I knew I was standing there. The rest of that day, I felt sick and was keenly aware of everyone who was staring at me. I felt like an alien within my own skin. 

Question 3. Unattractive isn't the word I'd used. Personally, I never try to look attractive mostly because I'm ace and don't want people to think of me as attractive.

Question 4. Yes. I am dysphoric every time. Even in the clothes I wear on a daily basis. I accept that I'm female. But I identify as non-binary/agender. But my desire is to have a body that looks neither male nor female. So currently, with a body that looks female, I always have dysphoria.

Question 5. Yes, I really love the androgynous look. Although, it's still something I haven't accomplished yet.

Question 6. Yes. All. the. TIME! I often think of myself as just my mind, that at this moment in time, is just possessing this "body" as a mere way of survival. That my body is a shell. 

Question 7/8. The first time I put on a binder I couldn't get the cheeky grin off my face. It was like truly "seeing" myself for the first time. The me that my mind knew I was. The first time I wore my binder out in public I felt like an impostor. Like I was playing a game that I didn't know the rules too and therefore in my ignorance was breaking them all. Despite how much I despise "social norms" they are in reality hard to overcome. But most of all, I was afraid. What if my family or friends saw me like this? They have only ever known me as female, woman, daughter, sister. And I here I was breaking the rules. Playing at something I wasn't born as. And I'll admit, I was a bit ashamed, knowing that if my family knew these things, and saw me how I saw myself, they would be disgusted. My goal is with time to get past this feeling. To embrace myself in my entirety. I loved who I saw in the mirror, wearing a binder. I felt content for the first time in years. I felt satisfied in my own life. And I want those feelings back. 

 

I am female. And I accept that. But that doesn't mean I have to look a certain way, act a certain way or like certain things. And that is the difference between biological sex and gender presentation. I am female. But I am also non-binary/agender.