Fairness?

[Colder1]

Sorry if this is the wrong section

So I've been dating my girlfriend for 3 years now and she has recently been trying to categorize herself as asexual/grey area. Up until she started thinking about her sexuality, she always considered herself someone with low drive, and someone with a mental block for intercourse but she couldn't understand why. She claimed to know that she was like this for a very long time - over a decade before she met me. For me however, this is all fine. I'm okay with my partner having a very low drive, even though I am relatively high drive? (Idk where I stand. In previous relationships I was more than sexually satisfied with having any kind of sex once or twice every 4 weeks, but put me in a situation where I don't have any kind of sex for 10-12 weeks then I start getting a bit frustrated.)

Hear me out. When I entered the relationship I realized that we won't be having any sex nearly as much as I would selfishly like, but I was okay with that because we talked about finding a compromise. I'm never gonna pressure into engaging in sexual activity or intentionally guilt trip her if she doesn't want to for any reason. Whenever I did accidentally make her feel guilty, I would ask her what I did to make her feel that way, and never repeat it again. I'm very careful of my language in order to not upset her. I did my best to communicate with her early on in our relationship and concurrently up to this day about sex. I understand that I am not in control of her sexuality, her drive, or her behaviour. Seeing as though we are an exclusive couple however, I AM going to confide in her only sexually and emotionally. As much as I hate focusing on me me me, it's important to me to see how she intended to compromise, because I definitely did in all aspects of our relationship. Like I said, I went into this knowing that we won't be having any form of sexual intimacy as often as I'd like, but SHE also knows that she came into a relationship with someone who has much higher drive than her. We ended agreeing to doing oral sex occasionally (supposedly "more than a few times per month"), because she said she loved giving and receiving and she's often in the mood for it while around me. She would always talk about how emotionally close it made her feel to me, and how good it physically felt.  

 

However, most of the time when I try to initiate it with her, (either by asking, physically but gently hinting, progressing through foreplay etc.) she always doesn't want to, or at some point before it happens she says she's not feeling it and then stops. We talked about it a lot, and she always reassured me that it wasn't anything that I was or wasn't doing, but it was her. For nearly two years it didn't matter how I would try to initiate this thing that she supposedly loved doing so much, or talk to her about it. Nothing would never happen. I got frustrated to the point of not wanting to ask her for it because it just didn't make sense to me that she said always loved it and wanted it but never DID it. After I stopped trying, a few months passed and she never brought up doing oral sex even once. So I sat her down and talked about it. She said she didn't realize that it bothered me this much that there isn't much sexual intimacy in our relationship (even though we compromised on having oral sex semi-often, so... obviously sex is important to me? lol). I asked her if there was an ideal way for me to initiate or ask, but she said that she feels uncomfortable with me doing either of those because when I ask her, or try to start something, it implies that I'm in control of her sexuality and that she feels like she HAS to have sex with me when I ask her. I was confused at this because I always reassured her that she doesn't have to have sex with me. I'm not forcing her, and I always tell her that even though I confide in her because she's my partner (and why that is reasonable), I do believe that I can't RELY on her for anything sex related. If need be, my other options are to leave the relationship, or I pleasure myself. But anyways, I rolled with it because I thought that was something I'm better off not pushing. Instead, she said that she would try to initiate it more when she was feeling it. At the time I was content with that, but it only happened 2 or 3 times over the course of a year and only because I was immediately available to her while she was feeling it.  

Again I'm never going to force her to do anything. But every moment we agreed on a compromise that was clearly set, she always fell short of the promise. Even though she came into this relationship knowing that she is dating someone who highly values sexual intimacy, and that I'm going to want to confide in only her for sex, she has a problem with me asking or expressing my desire for it to happen. So now it just feels like our sex lives are completely in her hands. Leaving her is not something I really want to do because other aspects or relationship are pretty good. She's an amazing partner emotionally, and we have a lot of common interests. Quality time spent together is always amazing. but every time compromises aren't upheld on her end, it makes me wonder if I should really be staying in the relationship. It gets even harder to make a clear decision because it does feel like she is trying. Her responses when I talk with her about the times that compromises aren't met (this is not the only aspect of our relationship where this has happened) seem very genuine. She does express a lot of guilt, and she apologizes to me a lot, and the reason for doing this is because she feels that she wants the freedom to make her own choices because her previous relationships were very controlling ones where she was emotionally coerced into doing things she never wanted to.  

 

Also, If I do decide to leave, it'll leave a bad mark on my reputation in my area, because now I'm the shallow boyfriend who left his girlfriend who was very emotional abused in the past. Many people will think lowly of me because I broke up with her because of a sex related issue, when in my opinion it's an issue with being able to keeping promises. It'll be hard to move on from her emotionally first of all, and everyone will be against me (even my parents because they love her).

 

I told her that it's okay if she doesn't want to have sex but I really need her to tell me if there is any way we could compromise. We could extend the duration of not having any sex, do other things, or talk about it some more and work something out. but then she would often avoid giving me answers because she says she doesn't know what to say or do. She then would reply with something like "I feel guilty for not being able to meet your needs". 

 

There are days when I think deeply about this and it hurts because I swear on my life I'm doing the best I can to understand her feelings. She says she loves me every single day, but no matter what I do nothing is breaking through.

What should I do? 

Is it wrong of me to think that the compromises are sort of sliding her way mostly?

She says she doesn't want to be controlled, which is fine but isn't still wrong to break promises and agreements?

Am I being manipulated?

Am I being too ignorant?

Am I being too mean? 

I need to also know where I am going wrong here so please don't hold back

Please note that sex isn't the foundation of our relationship. I just think it's something that's important enough. 
 

I'm sorry for the long post, I'm really tired right now and I get very sad when i type about this. And if anyone is wondering how I accommodate to her, it's by learning and appreciating all of her other ways she shows me love, by paying close attention to her emotional wants when combined with physical closeness, and the respecting the fairness of sex when it does happen (If she goes down on me, then next time I go down on her). 

[Lara Black]

Hello, Colder1.

I was in a similar situation in my marriage, so I do feel your pain. We were both sexual (well, still are), but his drive was much higher and he absolutely needed variety. In the course of our 10-year-long marriage, we had tried an unimaginable number of different compromises, but nothing really worked – from my point of view, he didn’t uphold his end of it and vice versa.

It taught me that sometimes no matter how hard you try two people just can’t be happy together… well, unless one dramatically changes the definition of “happy”. I chose to break up (which after a decade together meant tearing my soul in halves), and I’m happy I did.

I don’t know what you will choose, but wish and even effort can’t turn people into something they aren’t – even in the name of love. You’ve spent enough time together to know what you both are and what you’re capable of. Now it’s time to decide if it’s enough to make you happy.

[Hopen]

Thanks for sharing guys. I'm sorry you're frustrated Colder1. I have sympathy for both you and your partner.

[novis]

Hi Colder1,

 

I'm approaching this from your partners perspective, if you don't mind, as I feel that there may be some aspects of her struggle with this compromise that maybe you can't fully appreciate. I'm also in a very similar position and am discussing this kind of thing in therapy, so there's that.

 

First of all this sounds like a very healthy, communicative relationship, which can be difficult, so congrats! I understand that this is very difficult for you and your partner, and I'm sorry for that.

 

What stands out to me is your feeling that promises aren't being kept. Now, if I was in your partners shoes I would feel a need to keep that promise. I would feel guilty if I felt I couldn't, or didn't want to. And I would feel extremely concerned about an otherwise happy relationship potentially ending if I couldn't uphold my end of the promise. That said, engaging in sex without enthusiasm, as a requirement to keep a promise, would also make me feel guilty. 

 

Can I ask what you want the outcome of this situation to be? From what I can tell there are a two possible outcomes:

- Your partner engages in sex/sexual acts in order to keep a promise but doesn't actually want to have sex. 

- Your partner engages in sex/sexual acts, when they want to, which will be less than you want. (This is happening now. This is also happening with me in your partners position in my current relationship.)

 

The first of these outcomes results in your partner engaging in sex for you only. I have done this before, and I can tell you it doesn't feel good. The result of sex is supposed to be pleasure for all those involved. If your partner is having negative feelings before/after/during sex would you feel happy or fulfilled? 

 

Those are my thoughts, I hope it helps in some way.

 

Novis

[Lindzabop]

In regards to breaking up and feeling like you'll be seen as a bad person that left an emotionally abused person -- you don't have to tell anyone the specifics of why you broke up. You honestly don't owe anyone outside of the relationship an explanation. You would be breaking up because you have an incompatibility that over time would be too much of a strain on the relationship. It's like any other dealbreaker incompatibility in a relationship. You're not a bad person for wanting to have sex. Just like your partner is not a bad person for not wanting to have sex. It's just an incompatibility that happens to be related to sex. 

 

[Tarfeather]

On 7/24/2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

She says she doesn't want to be controlled, which is fine but isn't still wrong to break promises and agreements?

Okay, this feels weird coming from me, but you have to understand that such a promise is an incredibly toxic thing for your relationship. The more someone feels pressured into sex, the less enthusiastic they will be about doing it.. and if there's an agreement to have sex every so often, then being less enthusiastic about it means they would feel even more pressured into it, and so on.

 

So the first thing before anything else you should do, especially if you want to have sex, is to take the pressure off her. Maybe she would want to compromise without the pressure. Maybe she wouldn't. There's nothing you can do about it, other than to walk away from the relationship (which, as someone else said above, is a perfectly okay thing to do in any situation, no justification is required).

[Philip027]

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Also, If I do decide to leave, it'll leave a bad mark on my reputation in my area, because now I'm the shallow boyfriend who left his girlfriend who was very emotional abused in the past. Many people will think lowly of me because I broke up with her because of a sex related issue, when in my opinion it's an issue with being able to keeping promises. It'll be hard to move on from her emotionally first of all, and everyone will be against me (even my parents because they love her).

Need to worry less about what other people think about your personal life.  It is your personal life for a reason, and I guarantee you fewer people will care than you think they will.  Not trying to tell you what to do one way or another, but you cannot let this sort of thing factor into your decision.

 

Someone being a past recipient of emotional abuse does not entitle them to a relationship partner that will never ever leave them for any reason.

[GLRDT]

On 7/24/2017 at 2:13 AM, Colder1 said:

when I ask her, or try to start something, it implies that I'm in control of her sexuality and that she feels like she HAS to have sex with me when I ask her

Hello! Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you've been dealing with a difficult situation.

 

Okay, so first off, I am not claiming to be an expert in any way. I do however, have a lot of opinions and tend to understand people and different perspectives pretty well. Which once again, doesn't mean I understand every situation or know everything especially only from reading an online post about your relationship, but you did ask for advice and these are my thoughts. Do what you will with them.

 

No one can make another person feel a certain way. You may do something and then the person feels a certain way, but that's not on you. Because there are times when I may be being nice and be holding the door open for someone with the intention of "making" that person feel good and then perhaps that person is having a bad day and is like "I can get my own damn door. Why do you think I can't do anything?" So my point is you can't "make" your girlfriend feel like she has to have sex with you unless you are physically making her which from what you've said, it sounds like you are actually being really considerate and careful with how you initiate or ask for sex and would never ever dream of being forceful.

 

Since your girlfriend has been emotionally abused, I can see how she would think you are making her feel a certain way. Emotional abusers are masters in manipulation and while she knows you are a good person, she may not be able to always have an accurate view on reality because of her past. It also makes sense that she wants to be in control of all of the sex related decisions. If she is in control, than nothing bad can happen to her.  However, I feel she is actually putting a lot more pressure on herself when she is in charge of every decision that has to do with sex. You didn't do that to her. It sounds like she just took all the control. She 100% yes is in control over her own body and must consent to sexual acts, but to take over all of the sex related decisions in a relationship is not healthy for either of you. It would be one thing if she said I cannot and do not want to do anything involving sex. I can't compromise. Then that's her decision and you need to see if you can be okay with that or not.  However, it seems she is saying that she is okay with some sexual acts that she apparently is not okay with. Her words aren't matching up with her actions. This makes me think she is doing this either out of fear of getting hurt or trying not to hurt you, or she is not being honest with herself or to you. It makes me think she hasn't fully dealt with her past yet.  It is valid for her to want to be in control of sex decisions because of her past, but in the end she is in a relationship with another person and it can't solely be about her and only her needs.  If she wants to be in a relationship, she needs release some control and to trust you. She may not be ready to do this because she hasn't worked through her past abuse. If that's the case, I think she needs to be okay with herself first before she can be okay with another person in a relationship.  I don’t think she is purposely trying to manipulate you, but at the same time, it appears she is only able to find validity and safety in her mindset. I certainly don’t blame her if she has been emotionally abused. It’s not her fault, but it's not your fault either and you aren’t getting what you need out of this relationship.

 

I know it sounds horrible, but while you can try to help her get through her past emotional abuse by being an amazing boyfriend and trying to support her, she is the only one who can actually help herself and she has to want to help herself. This is HER issue and something she needs to do for foremost herself but also for both of you. Yes, horrible things have happened to her in the past, but that doesn't mean your needs should constantly be unmet because she hasn't or isn't able to deal with her past. She is not the only one in the relationship. You may want to take care of her because you love her, but ultimately, you need to take care of yourself too or else the power in the relationship is unbalanced and unhealthy. If you continue to sacrifice yourself for her, I feel that neither one of you will be truly happy and fulfilled in the relationship.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think compromise means she should have to have sex with you all the time or anything like that, but she needs to take the time to think and to be be honest with herself and with you if you are going to be able to compromise with each other something that is actually possible for both of you. And you have to be ready for the fact that while she loves you, she still may not be able to compromise.  She may SAY she loves oral sex because she wants to love it but doesn't or she might say it because she is confused about how she really feels, but actions speak louder than words.  She needs to do some time really thinking about if she is able to compromise. Some gray asexuals are able to, some are not. She needs to figure herself out first. You can either wait and support her as she does this as long as she is actually working on herself and not just saying she will or if the relationship is hurting you more than making you happy, you can leave. 

 

I hope this helps and things improve for both of you. Also I'm sorry if I repeated myself too many times. You wrote a perfect post. I tend to ramble and go out of order. ALSO WELCOME TO THIS SITE! People are great on here and I hope you find the support you are looking for. I know I have.

[gaogao]

I want to say as someone who identifies a lot w/ your gfs situation and has dealt with emotionally abusive stuff in the past, I felt I agree with both @novis and @GLRDT's posts strongly.

 

edit (especially the stuff in @glrdt's post about her possibly taking a lot of responsibility for things you didn't ask her to take responsibility for because if she's in control she can't get hurt -- even outside of sex, i tend to try to take responsibility for and control everything that makes me anxious, but I have to learn to trust people more rather than take on everyone's emotional burdens and try to regulate what I and other people do or say in order to make everyone else happy

 

also the stuff about promises being involved.. i'll promise stuff and do and say a lot of things i don't want to do/say just because I think it'll keep the peace, even if that actually makes it worse.. it might hurt to know that she might not trust you 100% fully not to hurt her, but the fact is it takes a lot to un-programme that behaviour.

 

It sounds like you're super communicative and are trying your best though so good luck ;_;'' just remember that you've got needs too - don't neglect yourself to look after her )

[Telecaster68]

Quote

i'll promise stuff and do and say a lot of things i don't want to do/say just because I think it'll keep the peace, even if that actually makes it worse..

When this is applied to making promises about sexual activity going into a relationship, it looks a lot like a cynical bait and switch. Pretend you're into sex till you've got the person hooked, then back off, because they're less likely to leave. It's dishonest and makes it difficult for people to trust you, and they'll conclude that you don't particularly care about their feelings, and the lack of trust, not the lack of sex will kill the relationship.

 

Obviously promises made in good faith that you subsequently realise you can't live up to are different, and that can be either sexual or asexual really wanting to be more or less sexual to meet their partner's needs.

 

OP

 

Quote

She does express a lot of guilt, and she apologizes to me a lot

... and then carries on as before. Does that sound sincere?

[gaogao]

On 9/12/2017 at 5:38 PM, Telecaster68 said:

When this is applied to making promises about sexual activity going into a relationship, it looks a lot like a cynical bait and switch. Pretend you're into sex till you've got the person hooked, then back off, because they're less likely to leave. It's dishonest and makes it difficult for people to trust you, and they'll conclude that you don't particularly care about their feelings, and the lack of trust, not the lack of sex will kill the relationship.

 

Obviously promises made in good faith that you subsequently realise you can't live up to are different, and that can be either sexual or asexual really wanting to be more or less sexual to meet their partner's needs.

I guess I can see your point, but I wasn't talking about promises for sex here, but more like... making promises you know will be hard for you but with the full intention of carrying them out.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of how sometimes my friends will ask me to go out or do something for them when I really just wanted to stay at home alone, and I can't think of a good reason to say no so I just say yes and do it anyway. I don't ever intend to break those promises, and I often have no intention at all of breaking those promises, but I promise them knowing that I'll have to push myself to keep them until I'm ragged.

 

I guess in terms of sex it sounds bad, but like.. promising to do it and totally intending to do it, and trying your best even though you don't want to and then realising you really can't keep it up is just kind of what happens, because as someone who has been emotionally abused, you don't tend to feel like your minor needs are important.

[Telecaster68]

Oh, following through is fine - that's kind of the point of a promise. I'd read your post as though you weren't able to. I know what you mean about needs not feeling important; I grew up in an emotionally abusive family, so I get that in the way that only people who've been there do.

[Guest]

From someone who went from being able to do a compromise to not, it's really not so easy to do sex when you don't want to. I am "semi-sexual" atm with my partner, I do want her in some ways. But, it's something new just with this partner and my past partners, I loved them, but I never wanted them that way. So, I can give a sort of split perspective here and maybe it'll help.

 

When I first start having sex with people it was ... fine. I didn't get the big deal, I didn't want it for me, but it was fine doing it. But, the more I did it, the less I wanted to. Eventually I got into a long-term relationship with a person with a very high drive. After five years of giving it when I didn't want it, it became something dreaded and I had to force myself. Eventually, a compromise schedule was set, but it didn't last because I couldn't keep up mentally prepping myself for up to an hour just to be able to emotionally/mentally handle doing it. It was so tiring and so draining and I honestly got to the point it took all my willpower to not sigh and show how much I absolutely hated it when it was "sex day". It ruined my entire day knowing that was something I'd have to do. It made me want to hide in a locked room and never come out. I didn't feel like I had a choice, since I had agreed to this schedule, no matter how horrible I felt about it. He had needs, so I had to meet them...it was only fair, right? That's what relationships are like, right? If I didn't, I'd feel guilty. If I did, I'd feel pressured and hate every second. It was a rock and a hard place. 

 

Honestly, I feel the schedule idea is a terrible one unless it works for the low drive person. It works fine if there is some responsive desire and they can get into it and enjoy it and see it as a positive once it gets going and they just need that push to do it. Or are truly neutral about it and it's no different than watching a movie. But, if they really don't want to, it's just so much pressure and tension that it's likely to make sex less likely to happen than more likely. And it's going to cause feelings of rejection more in the high drive person if the low drive one turns down the schedule, cause they've built up expectations. 

 

After that I had decided I wouldn't be with anyone that needed sex again, because I know I just can't do it regularly. I can do it occasionally and maybe enjoy it for what it brings them, but if someone wants it regularly, we just won't work. So, I stayed single. And then I met someone who didn't want sex either. Sex got off the table completely. And, if I wanted to do nothing more than cuddle, they were perfectly content with this idea. It's such a stress free thing that somehow, it awakened some sort of sexual desires (though, sex itself is still very much off the table). 

 

So, now I've felt the difference in "I'm doing this for you, but I really don't want to" and "I am doing this cause we both actually want to" and it's light years. The former is stress filled, draining and makes me feel so far away from the person I'm with that intimacy of any kind becomes difficult and less fulfilling. The latter is relaxing and fun and makes us closer. I can't fault anyone for not doing sexual things unless they're honestly into it. So, if she needs to be "in the mood" and she's only in it a few times a year, then that's her very low drive. And if she's not able to keep it up regularly when she's not into it, then I honestly can't blame her. 

 

Saying that, however, if you feel that is not fulfilling for you, then don't let other people's opinions keep you in a relationship you're miserable about. If you're not getting your needs met and it's causing you distress, then that's an issue and if it's a deal breaking one, there is no shame in it. And no one should fault you for it any more than if any other need (communication, time together, etc, etc) was not being met. You saying I need someone more compatible isn't emotionally abusing her and it isn't being mean to her, it's taking care of yourself and not sacrificing your happiness for societal approval. 

[Valentine18]

I've been in a similar situation for many years now, so please know that you aren't alone in trying to make a relationship work that, at times, may seem impossible.  We've been married 16 years and we have tried so many compromises with varying degrees of success.  We tried scheduling a "date night" once a week and that actually worked for a little while.  I don't think that's a completely useless idea, it just depends on the people involved.  When we talk, he always agrees that he knows I need some intimacy to be happy and swears to make an effort, but nothing changes.  What I've come to realize, mostly through reading the perspective from the asexual people on these forums, is that the idea of sexual activity just never crosses his mind.  He never looks at me dressed up, or getting out of the shower, or whatever, and thinks "I want her", like I do him.   I also understand now that the more I try to start sexual activity with him, the more turned off by the idea he gets because he feels pressured.  So if I don't try to initiate, I never get anything from him because he doesn't even think about it, but if I try then he feels pressured and ends up mad at me.  On the other hand, he knows how important this is to me and seems to make less and less effort to work with me.   When we talk (or fight) about this, he's apologetic and swears he'll make some effort, but I've come to believe that's just his manipulative way to keep things the way he wants them for a little bit longer, so yes I feel she's manipulating you by not keeping to her compromises.  I've started to resent that he keeping a very important part of life just shut down because it's not important to him.  If this is you and you find any solution then please share!   Like you, I've tried many ideas but nothing has worked, although both of us sound like we want it to.  I'm at the point of cheating on him to get what I need or leaving him, even though so many other things are good in our lives., and it seems you are getting there too.

I can't tell you what to do, but you sound a lot like me and that isn't an encouraging thing.  Sexual intimacy is important to us, and not to our partners, and that's something we either have to deal with or leave.  If you choose to leave, you don't have to tell anyone anything about why it didn't work out.  All they need to know is that you weren't happy together and decided to separate.  I wish I could tell you there is something you are doing wrong but you have to understand that it's not you and there's nothing wrong with you, and there's nothing wrong with her either, you just don't have compatible needs and desires.  This took me a long time to realize and accept.  But neither of you can change that no matter how much you want to.  My biggest concern for you is that she doesn't want to be controlled, but yet she seems to be controlling everything. 

[Plectrophenax]

Firstly, I appreciate the detailed post - and I appreciate the attitude and consideration you display even more. My sincerest respect to you, it's always very gratifying to know people like you exist.

 

Secondly, while the replies so far have been equally considerate and thoughtful, they make me a little unsure whether or not I understood the nature of your compromise correctly - from what I gathered, you agreed on oral sex specifically (on occasion), and not just that, but you agreed on this precicely because she has made claims to be partial to it as well. I'm taking from this that you, in your relationship, either exclusively or predominantely had oral sex and nothing more, and that your advancements were geared towards this sexual activity and not a different one. Is that correct? Because if it is, then the reply to your second question is very easy; yes, the compromises seem to indeed be "sliding her way" most of the time. But I might have misunderstood.

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

What should I do?

In all honesty, from what I gather, you are doing effectively everything you can. If she claims to like something she actually doesn't (be it out of indifference or even active dislike) then that's really not something you can do much about, and it's certainly not wrong for you to point out a degree of insincerity in that respect if you perceive it. Likewise, she has no basis for faulting your assumption that she does, in fact, get something out of it because that is what she actually said. If she were to consider this a false assessment on your part, it is on her to correct you. If she doesn't do that she is leaving you in a loop, and I have trouble imagining that she isn't, in a way, very much aware of that.

 

Again, I may have misunderstood this, but it also strikes me that you are, to an extent, willing to try abstaining from shared sexual activity completely (even if you get frustrated after 10 to 12 weeks) but that what you primarily need is to feel able to discuss the possibility of a sexual compromise openly and honestly - and, as others have already stated, in spite of her seeming to genuinely care and try, that's realy not the type of discussion you appear to be having.

I'm sure if she came out and said something like "I cannot ever compromise when it comes to any sexual activity (including the oral she apparently doesn't mind or even likes), and it will have to be on my terms and on my terms only for the forseeable future and perhaps always" then there might be a chance your relationship would fracture due to incompatibility, but even at that risk, if that is truly how she feels, then it is extremely unfair (and, yes, manipulative) to just not say it and instead lean on the degree of compromise you are evidently willing to make.

I don't want to assume it is how she thinks, but I will certainly not fault anyone who, given what we know from you post, is lead to that assumption.

 

Provided what I said so far rings true, what I would suggest is that you ask upfront (even if you had this discussion many times before) whether or not there is any chance of any kind of sexual compromise. If, according to you, your relationship hinges on this possibility, I would say that as well, though there's always a risk it might come off as an ultimatum and/or pressure (even if I don't think it actually is). Should she refrain from responding directly, I'm not sure how she expects your relationship to continue, especially if you aren't demanding a compromise but are merely enquiring about the possibility of one. If she says yes but it ultimately results in her approaching you whenever she feels like (if ever), then you probably will have to have a serious exchange about compatibility. And if she continues to insist that she doesn't mind the occasional oral sex yet consistently avoids or rejects it, then you'll just have to be upfront about how unfair you think this is.

Of course, none of this has to be detrimental to your relationship and might just as easily end up strengthening it. At least I would hope that to be the outcome.

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

Is it wrong of me to think that the compromises are sort of sliding her way mostly?

No, I don't think it is. Naturally, you as much as her are allowing this to be the case (and I'm certainly not faulting you for being extra considerate), but as others have said already, her legitimate desire and need to be in control of her sexual activity directly results in her, effectively, being in control of yours as well.

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

She says she doesn't want to be controlled, which is fine but isn't still wrong to break promises and agreements?

Yes, I think so. If she changed her mind about, say, oral sex being something she feels able to compromise on (maybe because 'more than a few times per month' is simply not enjoyable to her (anymore)) then I would expect her to be the one to actively seek to change the compromise, as opposed to just leaving it hanging unfulfilled - be it by making it less regular and trying that, or by rejecting the idea of a compromise like this completely. If she doesn't do this, then I don't think the traditional arguments brought up in cases like these carry much weight. Of course people can promise things they might not be able to keep, of course making an agreement on the basis of a desire that is likely completely absent is a potentially really bad idea, and of course you can't force someone into anything - especially anything sexual - just because you have 'an agreement'.

But none of this changes the fact that she and you have, apparently, agreed on something and she is seemingly happy letting that agreement slip away. And I do think this is something you can challenge her on without it reflecting poorly on you.

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

Am I being manipulated?

Whether she does it knowingly or not, or maliciously or not, it certainly could easily seem that way.

However I would tell you - much like I would tell her with regards to her past relations of being emotionally coerced into things against her will - that the decisions you make are and remain the decisions you make. She can obviously influence them, and influence them significantly, but aside from borderline blackmail or flat-out abusiveness you are the one who can choose to act in whichever way you please, be it by complying, by discussing, by challenging or by rejecting this (potential) manipulation.

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

Am I being too ignorant?

I don't think so. A willingness to engage is always good enough for me, at least, even if you might not know and ever know about how she 'truly' thinks and feels inside.

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

Am I being too mean?

From what you wrote, I don't even see how you could think that. But, of course, I only know what you told me.

 

Two more things I'd like to address regarding your post;

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

She said she didn't realize that it bothered me this much that there isn't much sexual intimacy in our relationship (even though we compromised on having oral sex semi-often, so... obviously sex is important to me? lol). I asked her if there was an ideal way for me to initiate or ask, but she said that she feels uncomfortable with me doing either of those because when I ask her, or try to start something, it implies that I'm in control of her sexuality and that she feels like she HAS to have sex with me when I ask her.

This, to me, is probably the most striking part of your recollection. Like Valentine18 said, it is not untypical for sex and sexual activity to simply never really cross an asexual's mind - even when in a relationship - but, personally, I think that is disrespectful of one's sexual partner, especially if one has already discussed the matter before, and even more so when one has agreed that a compromise would be best to satisfy the needs of both. Just dropping the subject (or expect it to be forgotten) is not something I could get behind, and frankly I find it a little alarming if she was honestly surprised at your desire for occasional - not even regular - sexual intimacy.

I personally used to equate sexual desire with trivial things like 'going to the cinema together' all the time (and still find myself doing it sometimes) - but even if I wasn't so keen on going to the cinema myself, I most certainly would not be taken aback if my parter, after we've agreed on going to the cinema semi-often, would bring up the topic should we have failed to go for months on end. And that's assuming 'going to the cinema together' and 'engaging in shared sexual activity' are even remotely equatable, which requires a rather oblivious mind if I do say so myself.

 

And if she really thinks you asking for or inciting sexual intimacy is "implying that you are in control of her sexuality", I don't know what to say. If she's truly that weak-minded (or traumatised, perhaps) that she can't say 'no' when she doesn't feel like it, or 'yes' if she's okay with it (and, ideally, feels like it too, though that seems to be unlikely), then she really should work on being more assertive and self-conscious, for her own sake. As it stands, she would rather rely on your consideration and potentially never engage in sexual activity at all, which, as I've stated ad nauseum now, is simply her not acknowledging your side of the story. It's vital for both of you to be able to address both of your needs. Even if it might end up with the realisation of profound incompatibility (which is the worst case scenario, but by not necessarily the most likely one).

 

On 24.7.2017 at 9:13 AM, Colder1 said:

Also, If I do decide to leave, it'll leave a bad mark on my reputation in my area, because now I'm the shallow boyfriend who left his girlfriend who was very emotional abused in the past. Many people will think lowly of me because I broke up with her because of a sex related issue, when in my opinion it's an issue with being able to keeping promises. It'll be hard to move on from her emotionally first of all, and everyone will be against me (even my parents because they love her).

People here have already addressed this paragraph much better than I could, but I, too, would tell you that your relationships are your business, and you should never consider yourself hostage of the opinions of those around you. And yes, this can be extremely difficult and sometimes very risky to boot, but if it's the only way you could feasably see yourself and your needs adequately addressed, it's still a step worthy to take.

As for your parents, they can still love her and be friends with her even if she isn't your partner. Any outrage or anger directed at you is misplaced.

 

 

1 hour ago, Valentine18 said:

What I've come to realize, mostly through reading the perspective from the asexual people on these forums, is that the idea of sexual activity just never crosses his mind.  He never looks at me dressed up, or getting out of the shower, or whatever, and thinks "I want her", like I do him.   I also understand now that the more I try to start sexual activity with him, the more turned off by the idea he gets because he feels pressured.  So if I don't try to initiate, I never get anything from him because he doesn't even think about it, but if I try then he feels pressured and ends up mad at me. 

I just wanted to point out that this is one of the many reasons people are so weary about sexual-asexual compatibility. This appears to be a very common outcome of such relationships, and it's really unfortunate. One of the reasons I can't imagine ever being in a relationship (with a sexual person) is precicely this, that I am effectively positive that I cannot and likely never will offer something that the other party truly desires and needs, and that any compromise is likely to be a burden carried disproportionately by one side. Asexual people, I think, owe a modicum of consideration to their sexual partner's needs and should not hide behind their asexuality - or, worse, manipulative tactics - to avoid this. Naturally, sexuals should be equally considerate to their asexual partners, though the sheer normalcy of sexual desire doesn't make this very easy.

 

1 hour ago, Valentine18 said:

On the other hand, he knows how important this is to me and seems to make less and less effort to work with me.   When we talk (or fight) about this, he's apologetic and swears he'll make some effort, but I've come to believe that's just his manipulative way to keep things the way he wants them for a little bit longer, so yes I feel she's manipulating you by not keeping to her compromises.

This appears to be quite common, and it concerns me (because I'm the kind of person who would fall for it every time). Even if meant earnestly, surely people ought to at least be able to recognise when something isn't going smoothly in a relationship and one's parter is suffering for it, and surely people ought to know that making promises isn't enough to address a situation like that.

 

1 hour ago, Valentine18 said:

I've started to resent that he keeping a very important part of life just shut down because it's not important to him.

What do you mean by "a very important part of his life"? Sexuality?

If that's what you mean, you have to be careful about how much of this 'shutting down' you consider deliberate. You could, for example, just as well "resent" people who don't keep their bodies as fit as possible for just "shutting down a very important part of life" - but if it's not important to them, that's simply how it is. Some asexuals might be able to be talked into doing and getting used to sexual activity (since being asexual is not synonymous with being sex-averse), but to many of them, the importance of sex is simply not there.

The way you phrase it is that sexuality (presuming that's what you are referring to) is important by default and asexuals are the odd ones out, but that's not the case. To many asexuals, sex is not a "very important part of life", and that's for them to decide. Unless you think that, because sex is used to keep the species alive and kicking, it is something that ought to be considered of personal importance as well?

[MrDane]

On 15/9/2017 at 7:01 PM, Valentine18 said:

I've been in a similar situation for many years now, so please know that you aren't alone in trying to make a relationship work that, at times, may seem impossible.  We've been married 16 years and we have tried so many compromises with varying degrees of success.  We tried scheduling a "date night" once a week and that actually worked for a little while.  I don't think that's a completely useless idea, it just depends on the people involved.  When we talk, he always agrees that he knows I need some intimacy to be happy and swears to make an effort, but nothing changes.  What I've come to realize, mostly through reading the perspective from the asexual people on these forums, is that the idea of sexual activity just never crosses his mind.  He never looks at me dressed up, or getting out of the shower, or whatever, and thinks "I want her", like I do him.   I also understand now that the more I try to start sexual activity with him, the more turned off by the idea he gets because he feels pressured.  So if I don't try to initiate, I never get anything from him because he doesn't even think about it, but if I try then he feels pressured and ends up mad at me.  On the other hand, he knows how important this is to me and seems to make less and less effort to work with me.   When we talk (or fight) about this, he's apologetic and swears he'll make some effort, but I've come to believe that's just his manipulative way to keep things the way he wants them for a little bit longer, so yes I feel she's manipulating you by not keeping to her compromises.  I've started to resent that he keeping a very important part of life just shut down because it's not important to him.  If this is you and you find any solution then please share!   Like you, I've tried many ideas but nothing has worked, although both of us sound like we want it to.  I'm at the point of cheating on him to get what I need or leaving him, even though so many other things are good in our lives., and it seems you are getting there too.

I can't tell you what to do, but you sound a lot like me and that isn't an encouraging thing.  Sexual intimacy is important to us, and not to our partners, and that's something we either have to deal with or leave.  If you choose to leave, you don't have to tell anyone anything about why it didn't work out.  All they need to know is that you weren't happy together and decided to separate.  I wish I could tell you there is something you are doing wrong but you have to understand that it's not you and there's nothing wrong with you, and there's nothing wrong with her either, you just don't have compatible needs and desires.  This took me a long time to realize and accept.  But neither of you can change that no matter how much you want to.  My biggest concern for you is that she doesn't want to be controlled, but yet she seems to be controlling everything. 

Good points there @Valentine18!

nothing wrong with either of them, but surely a compatibility issue. And making deals/agreements that dont last is not healthy, when it is about something which is rather important to one part. Question is, is it important to the ace to not have sex or is it just a bit boring and without much gaining/benefitting from it? Is it something the ace does because it is a wonderful gift to give or is it a darn sour chore, that needs to be done to keep the partner? Ifbit just dorsnt fly in on the radar, then perhaps putting it in the calendar will. My concern is, that when my ace "forgets", it could be because she hopes that I wont bring it up. And then it is not forgetting but evading or trying to sneak away. 

[Treesarepretty]

@Colder1, I do not think that you are being selfish. She is basically pulling you all the way to her side on the issue of sex, even though she may not mean to. I think that on her side the whole "I don't need a lot of sex but..." conversation may sound a lot like "this is a nice shop you have here. Be a shame if something were to happen to it." That being said, there are two people in this relationship, not just her. If she is still dealing with abuse issues from a previous relationship, she may be putting undue stress on your relationship with her. In that case you should remember that social workers are told to take time for their own problems to make sure that they are in a condition to deal wirh helping others. 

 

As far as how you are handling things, it sounds as though you have gone through all the things I could think to recommend. Have you come here because the only thing left is breaking up? 

 

On 7/24/2017 at 0:13 AM, Colder1 said:

Is it wrong of me to think that the compromises are sort of sliding her way mostly?

She says she doesn't want to be controlled, which is fine but isn't still wrong to break promises and agreements?

Am I being manipulated?

Am I being too ignorant?

Am I being too mean? 

The compromises you have told us about gave been sliding her way, yes. 

 

With simething as personal as sex, I would say that yes, it is okay to break promises to have sex because that could be a traumatic experience for some people. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to stay with her. I think that you need to decide if this is a make-or-break issue for you. It would be fucked up for you to hold a breakup over her head to get more sex, but you are perfectly free to actually leave her due to incompatability. 

 

Does it matter if her actions meet the definition of manipulation? Would you feel differently about your relationship if they did versus if they didn't? The label matters less than the reality. A better question might be, "can you be happy in the long term with each other?"

 

I don't think you are being mean or ignorant. From your description, you have been very understanding and kind. If you do decide to leave, you could show her this website and maybe even take her to an AVEN meetup. You may feel better about the situation and do a lot to redeem yourself in the eyes of your parents and others if you make the effort of finding other sexual/ace couples to be friends with who can help you with each other, or maybe even help her find someone that she would be more compatible with. 

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.