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scarletlatitude

ToS addition - edit to the T&S and Gender forum content ban rules

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scarletlatitude

The admod team has voted to add the following to the AVEN ToS (6e): 

 

Quote

Whenever a member receives an Official Warning for transphobic content or for gender identity related offences (such as identity policing with genders), then their warning will come with a temporary suspension of their ability to see or post in the Gender Discussion forum. If a member gets a warning for any content in the Tea and Sympathy forum, their warning will come with a temporary suspension of their ability to see or post in the Tea and Sympathy forum. If a member is repeatedly warned in either forum (gender or T&S), they may permanently be banned from that forum. Note that ban lengths may vary depending on the severity of the infraction. 

 

The new parts of this edited rule are:

  • Tea and Sympathy was added, in addition to the Gender forum
  • Repeated warns may lead to permanent bans
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Ricki

I'm solidly in favour of this announcement! :)

 

1) Is there any estimations that you can give to show that the lengths will be fair?

2) isn't there an admin with the specific job role to make announcements on rule changes. (I know there is). How come they don't do it?

3) How many times is "repeated warns"?

4) surely severity or situation needs to be thought of for these "repeated warns"? For example if I go into the gender section and get a warn for using some banned words (like the C one) but not actually being transphobic, it seems dumb to ban me from that section, even if it happens a lot of times.

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ryan_

Could you please explain/specify "identity policing with genders?"

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
2 hours ago, laura_ said:

Could you please explain/specify "identity policing with genders?"

Like if you say to someone "you have a beard and don't want to shave it so no you can't use the women's restroom even if you think you're a girl" or "why do you identify as agender just because you're a female bodied person who likes to play videogames but you also like makeup and pretty dresses? - videogames aren't only for boys so you playing them doesn't change your gender" (THOSE ARE JUST EXAMPLES FOR THE SAKE OF ILLUSTRATION I AM NOT GENDER POLICING).. pretty much any questioning of why someone would identify that way or any attempt at explanation that that's quite common for people to feel that way, and obviously trying to tell someone what gender they are if they haven't asked for that - all gender policing.

 

A legit question for admods, shouldn't you just make a SAFE SPACE subform and put Gender and T&S etc in there? Some people (ie myself) enjoy legit discussions about gender identity but that can't be had in the gender section of this site as there is too much risk you're stepping on someone's toes. That makes the gender section a Safe Space; it's not somewhere that exists for actual discussion about gender but solely exists for support and sympathy for all gender identities no matter what. It's not a discussion forum, it's a sympathy forum and that should be made clear for people looking for actual discussion so they don't wander in there and land themselves with a warn in 4 seconds for trying to discuss actual issues with gender identities these days (ie if they're too 'Right Wing' in their opinions, or disagree with all the gender identities there are these days or whatever - issues that do actually exist and are interesting to discuss but certainly can't be talked about or even mentioned in the gender forum)

 

This is what I see when I scroll over the gender subforum on the main forum page 

 

"Gender Discussion

 

Gender is the agenda here. Feel free to discuss anything relating to gender in all of its forms."

 

That couldn't be further from the truth and needs to be updated! Otherwise people are going to be easily getting caught out by all these special rules designed to help keep that forum a safe space. Some people legitimately want to discuss gender issues... We aren't around here just to give sympathy and support to everyone who identifies with a gender we have never heard of or whatever but that's all the gender forum is actually for - you certainly can't actually *discuss* gender there.

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scarletlatitude
3 hours ago, Ricki said:

I'm solidly in favour of this announcement! :)

 

1) Is there any estimations that you can give to show that the lengths will be fair?

2) isn't there an admin with the specific job role to make announcements on rule changes. (I know there is). How come they don't do it?

3) How many times is "repeated warns"?

4) surely severity or situation needs to be thought of for these "repeated warns"? For example if I go into the gender section and get a warn for using some banned words (like the C one) but not actually being transphobic, it seems dumb to ban me from that section, even if it happens a lot of times.

Not gonna speak for the whole admod team but since I am here....

 

1) Do you mean the temporary ban lengths? I am going to tag @Heart about that one.

2) Yes. I just volunteered cause I was bored. :P 

3) I think it depends on what the person is doing. If we warn you multiple times and you keep doing it, then clearly you don't get it right? 

4) I believe what we mean is many warns in the same forum for the similar offense. If you are warned multiple times for posting harmful things in gender, then it makes sense you wouldn't be allowed in gender anymore. I don't think one banned word violation would mean you are banned forever. Also it would depend on context. If you were calling someone a c-, that's different than using it to mean something else. (Either way it is still against the ToS, but calling someone a name would most likely lead to a ban.) 

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Ricki

@scarletlatitude thanks for the reply :)

 

And to clarify, then say something is transphobic etc. happens in HoBo then they can be banned from Gender?

 

My questions happen because it says

Quote

Whenever a member receives an Official Warning for transphobic content or for gender identity related offences, their warning will come with a temporary suspension of their ability to see or post in the Gender Discussion forum

but also

3 hours ago, scarletlatitude said:

a member is repeatedly warned in either forum (gender or T&S), they may permanently be banned

So one side of it looks like it is saying anything offensive to Gender anywhere on AVEN will get you a temp ban from that section, but you will only be permanently banned if you do it inside the section. 

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Ricki
1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

shouldn't you just make a SAFE SPACE subform and put Gender and T&S etc in there?

They don't like making more subforums. Or forums in general, really. I don't blame them it can be a bit hectic to look after, even though I fully agree that would be a wise choice.

This is also why I'm asking if getting a warn in HoBo will get you done for the Gender Section. A lot of Gender gets discussed in HoBo because it's "too extreme" for Gender. 

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Float On

*error post*

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Float On

@FictoVore.  

 

 

I do agree that there should be some differentiation between safe forums and open forums. but, I don't think it would be limited to just these two forums - while there are some contextual differences to what's crossing the line in the others, but, "arcade" and "q. about ace" and "welcome forum" for example, all are effectively still a safe space for members to be. I could see there be merit to exclude "q about ace" from that list, but, it could be said either way... 

 

what I am saying is that - I think creating a specific section for "Safe spaces" would disrupt the navigation of the site, however I do think denoting the forums that are "safer" and the forums that are "more open" would be greatly beneficial for the mods' needs and the members' needs. 

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Ricki
1 minute ago, Teagan1 said:

@FictoVore.  

 

 

I do agree that there should be some differentiation between safe forums and open forums. but, I don't think it would be limited to just these two forums - while there are some contextual differences to what's crossing the line in the others, but, "arcade" and "q. about ace" and "welcome forum" for example, all are effectively still a safe space for members to be. I could see there be merit to exclude "q about ace" from that list, but, it could be said either way... 

 

what I am saying is that - I think creating a specific section for "Safe spaces" would disrupt the navigation of the site, however I do think denoting the forums that are "safer" and the forums that are "more open" would be greatly beneficial for the mods' needs and the members' needs. 

But then you're opening up the need to have different rules for different sections. Which would get confusing for both the Admods and (more importantly) the users. And then if you have a user who is doing things that span across from HoBo to "safe space" then you do how do you link up the things they say for evidence, in a way that is fair to compare? 

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SkyWorld

Just curious, but how many times would be considered "multiple"? Is 3 the magic number? Would members be notified that if they cintinue to keep it up, they could be banned from the forum?

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Float On
27 minutes ago, Ricki said:

But then you're opening up the need to have different rules for different sections. Which would get confusing for both the Admods and (more importantly) the users.

please explain your concern. to me, this sounds quite simple and straightforward. it is just a matter of taking the steps to determine the guidelines. The complex part is coming to an agreement to set them - and training new people to interpret them - but the former is a one-time headache and the latter is no different - if not easier - than what it is now. 

 

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Ricki

@Teagan1 There was a thread a few months back in which this idea was suggested by an admin to the public, and it was shot down faster than... a thing that gets shot down quickly.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
7 hours ago, Ricki said:

They don't like making more subforums. Or forums in general, really. I don't blame them it can be a bit hectic to look after, even though I fully agree that would be a wise choice.

Wait, I didn't actually mean anything needs to *change* other than the definition of the gender discussion forum. You can't actually *discus* gender there (I mean the politics behind it, whether or not some identities are unnecessary etc, whether or not there are only two biological genders and all minority identities are just expressions of one gender or the other) ..None of this can be discussed in the gender forum, and there are all sorts of special rules (which some would suggest are unreasonable, others would say are in place to protect members with minority identities) around what can and can not be said there. So the TITLE and description of the gender forum needs to be changed to something like 'Safe Space to discuss your gender identities' because that's literally what that forum is now. It's certainly not a place to discus any of the more controversial aspects of the gender issue but the title and description of the forum suggests otherwise. I'm not saying there should be a special place where people can discuss more controversial aspects of the gender issue (I'm assuming that's also no longer allowed on AVEN even in Hot Box) ..so nothing else needs to change, but the title of the 'gender discussion' forum really does need to change to accurately represent what it actually is; A safe space for people of minority gender identities to discuss their issues and beliefs etc and  for those who wish to support them to give them helpful advice and comfort etc. If I was new to AVEN I'd quite easily assume legitimate *discussion* about gender was allowed there and possibly start a topic along the lines of 'there are only two genders, everything else is just an expression of one or the other' (just an EXAMPLE I'm not stating a fact).. and that is obviously something absolutely not allowed there but the title and description of the forum (gender discussion) clearly suggests otheriwse.

 

I don't agree with the whole 'cis' thing and would love to be able to have a moan about minorities forcing people to identify themselves with a special word just to indicate that they're not a minority, and about why a lot of the minority identities are actually the way many 'cis' people feel, and about how many minority identities are feeding *into* social constructs of what's 'for boys' and 'for girls' as opposed to defying those constructs, but I'd certainly never get away with that in the gender discussion forum lol, because that's a place where those minority identities can go to feel validated and safe, not questioned and possibly even offended.. ergo, it's a safe space.

 

(Just to clarify, by minority identity I mean anything that isn't cis heteronormative whatever, I dont mean like unicorn or mermaid and am not intending to offend anyone - just trying to explain why it's a safe space and not a discussion forum. I'm also not saying there is anything wrong with it being a safe space, just that the forum needs to be identified as such so people with more controversial opinions know not to post there! That would be better both for those people with controversial opinions because they then know to just avoid the gender forum, and better for the people who wish to seek support and advice etc there because they don't need to deal with people who believe there are only two genders or take serious issue with the term 'cis' or whatever.)

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Float On

hahaha why am I even on this site...

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deltaX

Was temp-banning people from T&S if they got warned there a rule in the past that somehow got repealed?  I thought it was already a thing..

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Ricki
1 hour ago, deltaX said:

Was temp-banning people from T&S if they got warned there a rule in the past that somehow got repealed?  I thought it was already a thing..

If I remember correctly then it WAS a rule, that sort of... disappeared. When I was mod then we were going to refer to it as a thing when making a similar gender rule, and couldn't find it anywhere. So I am guessing that this is a way of introducing it back in, whilst also fixing the gender rule that was implemented as it had a fair amount of community backlash.

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Kyon.
1 hour ago, deltaX said:

Was temp-banning people from T&S if they got warned there a rule in the past that somehow got repealed?  I thought it was already a thing..

It's still in a pinned thread in T&S: 

 

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deltaX

Yeah, the rule was definitely referenced in old threads.  I feel like it had to have been somewhere, and I wonder if I could have found it if I were still on DT.  

 

But either way, I support the rule.

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