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A message about AVEN's values


ithaca

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9 hours ago, ithaca said:

My part (and the Board's part) in this was also just to remind everyone (old and new) of what our most important values of inclusion and respect are.

And my part was to voice a final and unambiguous conscientious objection to those values, because I most certainly do not and will not share them, nor let them stand unopposed and unchallenged... and to prepare my permanent leave*, when those values have, in the name of the Head Honchos, now been declared core, basic and - worst of all - unchangeable. It is my firm conviction that these values are the root of much of AVEN's problems, that they will continue to lead to its decline, and that they stand in the way of the mission of visibility and educaton; if there is no hope for getting these problems addressed, the only logical conclusion is to wash my hands of AVEN, preserveing my own integrity when I perceive AVEN's as irrevocably lost. 

 

Thankfully, AVEN is just some random website and not a nation state - emigration is easy and carries no physical or economic risk. ;):D

 

I can just hope for the ideology espoused by the BoD not to spread any further (and especially not into LGBT+ spaces!), and stay confined to this internet ghetto... but either way, it's out of my hands. You do you, bro's... as long as you do it far, far away from me. #NIMBY #NotMyAVEN #NotWithMyVoice

 

 

* The admods can confirm that my request is pending, for those oh-so-smart commenters who snark about how I'll be back... yeah, sorry, maybe other people moving in the circles you know don't have a spine, but my own does remain upright and unbent. On my word of honor, I will not be back - past March 31, you guys are forever on your own. 

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I'm sure we'll manage...

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Aven should not change its core values just because a few people are threatening to leave. These values have always been in place and should remain as they are. When I joined the site in 2011, you'd have received a backlash by the community for suggesting we start telling somebody how to identify. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

See there's a really foggy line here.

 

I'd respond that sounds no different than any other sexual who enjoys sex enough to seek it out at bars and who places no real value on the appearance of sex partners.. there are plenty of sexual people like that. However, that's the sort of thing I've been getting nudged for recently; pointing out things that are very common among sexual people (losing interest in sex with age and with familiarity being another) ...So yeah, there's a serious issue here that isn't actually being addressed and everyone's just tip-toeing around it. People in general here get really, really upset when you try to bring up "normal sexuality" in response to someone saying "I desire sex but only when in love..." or "I seek sex out because I enjoy but I don't care if I never have it again..." or "I don't find anyone hot but I'll still have sex with them..." etc, even if you're not actually saying "you're not asexual" in those words, you're just trying to explain how there are plenty of sexual people like that. This site is really against the accurate representation of normal sexuality, because it immediately means that 1) many people here wouldn't actually be "asexual" or 2) there are a LOT of asexuals.. like 40-60% of the population at the very least, which would kind of render the asexual label totally meaningless.

 

Not necessarily breaking TOS, but it's still invalidating "asexual identities" to say there are lots of sexual people exactly like that... so we instead invalidate normal sexuality in the favour of validating the whole "anyone who wants to be asexual is asexual" thing. Meh.

If one isn't even allowed to compare "regular sexual behaviour" to whatever behaviour the poster of the question brings up without getting sanctioned, then... yeah. How else is one supposed to give advice? If that's the standard, I'd suggest to just leave out the "E" and make this a purple chatterbox altogether.

 

There's one thing that bothers me considering the "Only you can decide" discussion. At the end of the day we're just random people on the internet and if someone decides to call themselves ace in RL despite all the arrows pointing in the opposite direction, there's nothing anyone on here can ever do about it (except they know this person in RL, of course). I always considered the phrase "Only you can decide" as "Only you can truly judge whether this information applies to you, because only you are you", rather than "Only you can decide what it means to be ace for you". I believe that this gets mixed up a lot. "Only you can decide" is not inherently wrong.

 

I remember someone asking if they were ace because they only think about sex when they're aroused. Don't get me wrong, it's a legitimate question. Just how are AVEN people supposed to guide such a person to an answer if they're not even allowed to say "That's regular sexual folks' behaviour"? How is that ever going to work?

 

 

Besides that, I'm worried about the decline of vocal sexuals on here. Now that Skulls has left and Tele isn't all that active anymore, AVEN lacks actual insight. I mean yeah, I could copy and paste (or rephrase) what they might say, but that doesn't really cut it in my book.

 

AVEN is in desperate need of actual sexual people's input.

Spoiler

(Shutting down dumblr might also be of some benefit :D)

 

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12 minutes ago, Ciri said:

Aven should not change its core values just because a few people are threatening to leave. These values have always been in place and should remain as they are. When I joined the site in 2011, you'd have received a backlash by the community for suggesting we start telling somebody how to identify. 

1) I'm not threatening to leave, I am leaving. This thread has shown me that there simply is no hope for AVEN to get its shit together, and that the only thing I can do is to leave that ship instead of going down with it while fighting for a hopeless cause.

 

 

2) The BoD is indeed free to do as they please, and to set the core values as they please. The fact that I resignatingly accept this to be the case is a key part in why I am leaving AVEN.

 

(Heck, even if they wanted to, say, make this place only useable for White Anglo-Saxon Christians who voted for Trump, deciding that you ain't wanted here if you don't fit that target roster, that would 100% absolutely be their right to do, no matter how many people here would protest against it, and/or would leave AVEN over it. Funnily enough, a lot of the passive-aggressive posters in this thread right here would be the first in line rushing for the door because of the bad, bigoted meanies daring to enforce values... :rolleyes:). Being set by the BoD does not automatically make a value good, constructive, or logically consistent. It just makes it a value. (Yes, Racial Purity/White Supremacy, and considering non-cishet identities as unnatural and sinful are values, too - they merely happen to be the kind of values 99% of AVENites, myself and the BoD included, disagree with.)

 

And if disavowment of values you firmly disagree with, up to and including the point where one physically distances oneself from places and organizations where such values are espoused, is beginning to be a thing not to be accepted on here - well, congrats, AVEN - you folks may pat yourselves on the back for still continuing to ban words starting with N, F, and K, but you have nonetheless become unapologetic fascists, who just happen to personally have nothing against the usual suspects that most other prominent fascists dislike. So proud of you for being all liberal and enlightened, because heck, you obviously totes like blacks, Jews, and the LGBT! *slow clap*

 

If there is one thing I absolutely have no respect, nor tolerance, nor forgiveness for, it's unapologetic hypocrisy. Come the fuck off it, folks.

 

 

3) Just because someone is the minority, doesn't mean they're wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Homer said:

Besides that, I'm worried about the decline of vocal sexuals on here. Now that Skulls has left and Tele isn't all that active anymore, AVEN lacks actual insight. I mean yeah, I could copy and paste (or rephrase) what they might say, but that doesn't really cut it in my book.

 

AVEN is in desperate need of actual sexual people's input.

I'm not gonna lie. Skulls leaving - much as I obviously understand her and follow in her slightly-less-pottymouthed footsteps, was lowering the lid on the coffin that this thread now nailed shut.

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ChillaKilla

I'm not leaving! Where's my cookie?!

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5 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

I'm not leaving! Where's my cookie?!

You can have mine :P

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ChillaKilla
Just now, sea-lemon said:

You can have mine :P

Thanks, but it's probably laced with condescension of the original gifter so I'll pass :lol:

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1 hour ago, Homer said:

AVEN is in desperate need of actual sexual people's input.

I don't identify as asexual anymore, as I've come to realise there are certain sexual acts I may enjoy enough to actively choose to have them for pleasure. I'd been questioning whether or not I was ace for quite some time, despite having no desire to actually have sex (edit, I do desire it to some extent now, I didn't when I'd first started questioning whether I was ace or just "weird" lol)  and not caring if I never have it again. However I don't think I'm sexual "enough" for most people here to really give two hoots about what I have to say on the matter :P

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1 minute ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

However I don't think I'm sexual "enough" for most people here to really give two hoots about what I have to say on the matter :P

Well that's the people's fault, not yours. I can still decide what I think of your input after reading it.

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ChillaKilla

I'm sexual and I think things occasionally! Like... uh... I'm thirsty. I want tea. See?

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chair jockey

I said what I had to say about the original post, but what is this hread now about?

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Just now, chair jockey said:

I said what I had to say about the original post, but what is this hread now about?

Dramatic departures and calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

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just an owl

I'm not gonna say someone can't ID how they want, but AVEN (and ace communities/resources in general) has a problem of whenever someone says "am I asexual" the answer is always "yes" (or "maybe not but here's 10 sexualities which would fit you!")

 

Words aren't meant to be entirely inclusive, otherwise definitions are useless. 

 

I understand not allowing "no you're not asexual" but very few people seem to say "I don't think that sounds like asexuality because X, why would you think that you're asexual/different from non aces?" 

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chair jockey
1 minute ago, Mystic Maya said:

Dramatic departures and calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

 

Is there a bus stop nearby? I'll go wherever the bus happens to be going. I'm easy to get along with that way.

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4 minutes ago, Mystic Maya said:

Dramatic departures and calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

Please read again.

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chair jockey
Just now, Homer said:

Please read again.

 

I apologize for being sarcastic, but do I have to? The topic drift calls for dynamite-style thread splitting.

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Yet nobody ever said that AVEN is fascist for letting people choose their own labels. Where exactly did that happen?

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6 minutes ago, Homer said:

Yet nobody ever said that AVEN is fascist for letting people choose their own labels. Where exactly did that happen?

Mysticus literally called Aven "unapologetic fascists" because of this topic

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You claimed that

21 minutes ago, Mystic Maya said:

calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

has happened. Where?

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AVENistes seem to have one core value. Derail threads whenever possible :P

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Thanks all for the interesting comments. I have just a few remarks - this is me speaking as a member not as a member of the BoD (or as PT for that matter).

 

(1) As many have pointed out, the no-labeling rule is not at all new. It has always been the case here, certainly well before I joined (in 2009).

 

(2) Offering advice and information to people asking whether they are asexual is OK as long as one is respectful of their own thoughts and feelings on the matter. Saying for example that sexual identifying people experience something that might be similar to what they're describing (might - because language isn't a totally precise way of identifying experiences) is OK, but being dismissive of their reasons (whether provisional or otherwise) for identifying how they do, is not ok. Support and general information is fine.

 

(3) Some have raised the point AVEN allows many different definitions of asexuality. Since the default definition we use is lack of sexual attraction (a definition I support - I plan to make a detailed post about this at some point), if we didn't allow people to use their preferred definition, then we would be enforcing everyone uses the lack of sexual attraction definition. Would that be a good outcome? I don't think so.

 

(4) Lastly I would like to make the point that the no-label rule is not an ideology about asexuality. Neither is it a definition of asexuality. It is not "asexuality is whatever anyone wants it to be". This point has come up a few times in different threads so I think it's worth expanding on somewhat.

 

First thing is, there are different views on asexuality even within the board, admods and PT - although we respect our different opinions and it's never caused an issue when doing joint visibility projects. Some hold to something similar to the collective identity model (see AVENwiki for details) - by which asexuality is fundamentally a collective phenomenon, defined by the people who self-identify as asexual. I think it might be fair to call this view the "asexuality is anyone who identifies that way" point of view.

 

There's also the view that asexuality is a tool not a label. This is held by some board members. (I respect this view though it isn't necessarily my own.) By this reckoning asexuality is a word that people should use as long as it has a use to them.

 

There are also people, such as myself, who are on the more "objectivist" wing. I consider asexuality to not be defined by self-identity. The notion of asexuality I use is an objective phenomenon (note objective... NOT the same as precisely defined or measurable - I might expand on this point in future). I view asexuality as a sexual orientation. I actually think it's possible to incorrectly self-identify as asexual (according to my word usage) and it's quite possible for someone to be asexual even if they've never heard the term before.

 

So what gives? Well what I believe is that even though it's possible for someone to misidentify as asexual (relative to my personal notion of what asexuality is), the harm in contradicting their self-identity on a personal level far outweighs any possible benefit. They know their own experiences better than I do. They know how their words translate to their own personal experiences better than I do. They are also entitled to not agree with my personal notion of asexuality. (If everyone had to agree with me, everyone would use the sexual attraction definition for one thing.)

 

Contradicting people's self-identity is potentially a type I error. People have often had a lifetime of dismissal and invalidation. It's not for me or anyone else to continue that here even if I personally believe that their sexual orientation is something else, based on my personal understanding of the language they use to describe their experiences, according to my personal notion of what asexuality is.

 

That is why we draw a clear line between offering general information, advice, support, possible definitions (and yes, that includes alternative definitions to the no sexual attraction definition - we've been clear that agreeing with this definition isn't in the rules, even though it is the default definition AVEN uses) and labelling or invalidating people's identity.

 

If people later decide they're wrong about their self-identification, they'll do so at their own pace, but contradicting people on an individual level is not doing anything for visibility and education, and could be doing a lot of harm to individuals, and making AVEN a less accepting and welcoming area.

 

Again thanks all for your input,

Michael

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14 minutes ago, Homer said:

You claimed that

has happened. Where?

Do you really need me to quote it:

2 hours ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

And if disavowment of values you firmly disagree with, up to and including the point where one physically distances oneself from places and organizations where such values are espoused, is beginning to be a thing not to be accepted on here - well, congrats, AVEN - you folks may pat yourselves on the back for still continuing to ban words starting with N, F, and K, but you have nonetheless become unapologetic fascists, who just happen to personally have nothing against the usual suspects that most other prominent fascists dislike. So proud of you for being all liberal and enlightened, because heck, you obviously totes like blacks, Jews, and the LGBT! *slow clap*

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