Acquired Asexuality

[Sally]

Would saying 'no you can't use that label, and any label you do pick is with you for all time' be okay then? Self identifying and fluidity are two of AVEN's biggest shibboleths Sally - you're surely not trying to say otherwise?

And non libido because of menopause can't always be mediced away. My wife is a case in point.

Why are you framing questions as though I'd already said something that I DIDN'T say?

Your wife, from your own report, is suffering from an actual disease/disorder. Although menopausal disinterest in sex can be helped (I have friends who have had that done), I have no idea whether her disease/disorder can be, because it's probably not hormonal.

Menopausal disinterest in sex among sexuals is reportedly due to a lack of estrogen (and testosterone, which is present in women also). If you replace those hormones through medication, interest in sex can return. But as attested by many AVENites who report having their hormones checked, asexuality has nothing to do with hormones.

[Telecaster68]

"Why are you framing questions as though I'd already said something that I DIDN'T say?"

Oh come on, you're smarter than that.

So you concede that actually menopausal uninterest isn't always sortable by hormones. What other therapies are you suggesting?

In my wife's case, the room for manoeuvre with hormones is very limited by her lupus medication.

But in the end, one of your repeated phrases is 'the reason doesn't matter'. Why does it matter in this case?

[Snao Cone]

Telecaster, you think

Young people lacking an experience in life this far

are identical to

Older people no longer experiencing something.

The message (at least the message I give) of "you may identify differently as you continue to grow but that's okay" is serving the same purpose as "you may lose sexual interest as you age but that doesn't fundamentally change who you are". They are not contradicting each other.

[Telecaster68]

No, but saying one is asexual and the other isn't when they're both behaving and feeling the same way about sex is inconsistent.

[nanogretchen4]

Saying that someone is asexual is not the same as refraining from saying that they are not asexual. Keep in mind that telling a specific person that they are not asexual would be a violation of the terms of service. In both cases the actual message is, "You have the right to self identify, and there is no deadline for figuring this stuff out."

[Telecaster68]

I'm not talking about the TOS, I'm talking about logic.

[Snao Cone]

A young person "may be" asexual if they currently have no desire for sex. I encourage them to go with a tentative label like ace-questioning for that reason. For people who have experience as a sexual person, desiring it for the reasons sexual people do, but no longer feel that way, it's not the same question.

I don't agree with people who did identify as asexual or ace-questioning but turned out to be wrong saying "I used to be asexual." They can say "I used to think I was asexual" or "I used to identify as asexual." Again, I take no issue with someone saying "I used to be sexual" because no-longer-sexual is a valid distinction to make. Many of those experiences are relevant to conversations we have here. Similarly, people who came to AVEN thinking they were asexual but later determined otherwise can still be active members of this community and contribute valuable insight and allyship. It's just not helping awareness and understanding in the general population if the criteria are portrayed as "Do you plan to have sex in the foreseeable future?"

[Telecaster68]

"A young person "may be" asexual if they currently have no desire for sex. I encourage them to go with a tentative label like ace-questioning for that reason. For people who have experience as a sexual person, desiring it for the reasons sexual people do, but no longer feel that way, it's not the same question."

So why is it not possible for an older person to be asexual if they currently have no desire for sex?

What’s the different question, and whynis it different?

"I don't agree with people who did identify as asexual or ace-questioning but turned out to be wrong saying "I used to be asexual." They can say "I used to think I was asexual" or "I used to identify as asexual."

Who are you to say they were wrong?

And even if they were, the equivalent for the older person is that you're saying they're allowed to say" I used to identify as sexual"... So what are they identifying as now?

'Nonsexual' is one option, but I don't see the point, apart from trying to hold on to some eternal platonic ideal of intrinsic asexuality. But you can't have that, and say that sexuality is fluid, which is one if AVEN's shibboleths, as a community.

[Snao Cone]

Does "it's possible" mean "it's true"? No, no it does not.

[Telecaster68]

But whether it's true or not hasn't been the argument on this thread. The argument has been exactly about whether it's possible.

[nanogretchen4]

Off the top of my head, I can't remember any posts by older people saying that they used to be sexual but now want to identify as asexual. I'm not sure there is an actual real life issue here. I'm hopeful that there won't be a problem unless we're determined to make the definition of asexuality really confusing. Let's start by making sure to mention that it's a sexual orientation.

Frankly I don't think sexual orientation is actually fluid except in very rare cases.

[Guest]

Diving is observable behavior.

So is how my wife acts and talks about sex. In a longterm pattern for the same motive.

"Transformed into an aquatic creature" assumes a change in essential nature that seems improbable to me.

And not borne out by what's observable in her or anyone else. On the other hand, she's observably diving, and plenty of other people have dived before.

Do you know how much relevance your observations and feelings have to someone else's orientation?

[Telecaster68]

WTF? I should just ignore everything she says?

[Guest]

WTF? I should just ignore everything she says?

Did she say "I'm asexual"?

[Guest]

WTF? I should just ignore everything she says?

You're not in here quoting her, you're telling us how she seems to you from your perspective. Your perspective on the inner workings of people's thoughts and feelings are irrelevant, however. A third person looking at someone and re-assigning their orientation because that's how it appears to them... that's not right.

I think that's the crux of what we're arguing and you're not seeing. Your arguments that you keep asserting are pure logic are mostly statements about how things look to you from your position as Telecaster, a highly sexual heterosexual individual with specific experiences. Your individual perspective isn't what dictates orientation. If you remove everything that's from your perspective and we look at only hers, what we have is a woman who states she no longer wants sex and doesn't connect with it in any way. That, on it's own, is not asexuality.

[Telecaster68]

Read my post above, #223. If she said "I'm not asexual" given all that, would it make any sense at all?

[Telecaster68]

"You're not in here quoting her"

Ok, some verbatim quotes.

"I'd be quite happy never to have sex again"

"Sex is just something we used to do"

"Cuddles and talking are fine, I don't need sex to feel close to you"

"I feel nothing physically, it doesn't hurt, doesn't feel good"

"I don't mind doing it, I just get nothing from it, it's a bit like making you a cup of coffee."

"I think you're attractive, but I don't want to have sex with you"

"I don't want to have sex with anyone"

"I don't understand what you mean by emotional connection. I really think it's a male thing."

FFS. How in the fucking arse fucking name of fucking god is her being asexual just my interpretation?

[Guest]

Read my post above, #223. If she said "I'm not asexual" given all that, would it make any sense at all?

It would make sense to me because her lack of desire for sex is a result of medication, her medical condition, being post-menopausal, ageing, etc etc. Medication especially can be a *massive* libido killer (medication even killed *my* libido in the past and mine is 16 year old boy level high) then when you add how serious her illness is and the fact that she's post menopausal (not that all women lose desire post menopause, only some) what I see is a woman who has lost her (already low it would seem) sex drive as a direct result of the physical state of her body.. That's not asexuality and it would be detrimental to asexuality visibility and education if we started saying people in her position are asexual. What she is experiencing is a recognised medical condition, and I'd only even *consider* it possibly asexual if she herself came here to explain her reasoning for identifying as such.

Edit: also, regarding something you said in post 223 about her being less interested in any physical affection, when medication killed my libido it made me less interested in cuddles or any kind of physical affection, as well as causing me to lose any interest in sexual stimulation/orgasm, and I had zero desire to do anything about it (despite being in a relatively new relationship at the time with a21 year old guy from here- it was like to me it just stopped mattering and if he left me because of it, meh). So yeah the affects medication can have can be devastating all around, not just on the sex drive itself (I experienced this on SSRI's and the pill, but it's common with many forms of medication). I also imagine if that can happen as a result of meds then loss of libido from relationship boredom, illness, old age, whatever, could also come with a loss of desire for cuddles etc and a loss of desire to do anything about it.

[Guest]

Read my post above, #223. If she said "I'm not asexual" given all that, would it make any sense at all?

It would make sense to me because her lack of desire for sex is a result of medication, her medical condition, being post-menopausal, ageing, etc etc. Medication especially can be a *massive* libido killer (medication even killed *my* libido in the past and mine is 16 year old boy level high) then when you add how serious her illness is and the fact that she's post menopausal (not that all women lose desire post menopause, only some) what I see is a woman who has lost her (already low it would seem) sex drive as a direct result of the physical state of her body.. That's not asexuality and it would be detrimental to asexuality visibility and education if we started saying people in her position are asexual. What she is experiencing is a recognised medical condition, and I'd only even *consider* it possibly asexual if she herself came here to explain her reasoning for identifying as such.

x2

If she means that's how she's always felt, then that's a whole other thing.

[Telecaster68]

Done.

[Guest]

arse fucking

*instantIy distracted*

[R_1]

All of this begs a question, assuming the general public knows that alterations on the brain via medical conditions can have a potential to alter sexual preference of a individual (there's a lot of evidence to suggest it can and it does happen, but a lot of times, those involve some sort of very noticeable changes in the brain related to the hypothamalus), would you change your mind Pan?