Master Trump Thread

[Fraggle Underdark]

It's remarkable that some of the alternatives are so bad that DeSantis seems like a breath of fresh air, when it comes to MAGA-type people. He's super backward and opportunistic but he actually cares about the country and he's not a sociopath. I'm not saying "cares about the country" means "he would be good for it" just that he literally cares in some way. It's a remarkably low bar that so many of those clowns still don't clear.

[daveb]

I don't think DeSantis cares about the country (not without twisting that into some grotesque mockery of the idea). I think he cares about power. I'm not sure he even has any beliefs or ideals other than whatever serves himself. That's just my impression, of course, and I can't say I have followed him closely (I don't think I could stomach it). If anything, I find him scarier than some/most of the others, just from what little I know about what he's done in Florida. One thing that is worse than an incompetent fascist is a competent one, or at least one that has enough backing to get some things done, as I don't know how competent he actually is compared to another Florida man.

[Fraggle Underdark]

I haven't followed him closely, through lack of interest, so my read isn't going off a lot of examples. I'm fairly confident in my read but it's going off of subtle things and there's no reason other people have to be confident of my read and can't be confident of a very different interpretation.

 

As a slight topic change (not about whether he cares about the country), as has been mentioned before Trump has a unique danger in that he's so good at lying because truth just doesn't exist for him. The vast majority of people have a sense of it and so if they say something untrue they tend to give varying levels of signals they're lying, which people pick up on. But Trump isn't really lying because what's truth anyway, to him. So when he says the deep state is after him and repressing American freedoms, he can say that nonsense much more persuasively than most people. So while Trump isn't quite aiming for fascism (at least in his mind), he's uniquely capable of getting people to fall into it because he's successfully conning himself at the same time.

[Rockblossom]

1 hour ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

The vast majority of people have a sense of it and so if they say something untrue they tend to give varying levels of signals they're lying, which people pick up on. But Trump isn't really lying because what's truth anyway, to him. So when he says the deep state is after him and repressing American freedoms, he can say that nonsense much more persuasively than most people.

Sociopath:

People with the condition might seem charming and charismatic at first, at least on the surface, but they generally find it difficult to understand other people’s feelings. They often:

• break rules or laws
• behave aggressively or impulsively
• feel little guilt for harm they cause others
• use manipulation, deceit, and controlling behavior

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/sociopath#What-is-a-sociopath?

 

While he has always been a sociopath (and apparently a Fascist)  he wasn't always incoherent or speaking in a stream-of-consciousness  manner.   This was from 1980 when he was very aware of what he was saying, and carefully selecting his words.:

 

 

 

[Fraggle Underdark]

Haha oh man that's surreal to watch I watched a minute of it (as my time is best spent elsewhere, but disclaimer if the latter 75% is much different) and at first I was expecting something more different but honestly he sounded a lot like he has as a politician. He didn't literally say "make America great again" but same idea, and his focus on respect as the most important thing, that America is being laughed at. I would say that was more or less an incoherent stream-of-consciousness thing, once you poke below the surface of him throwing out nice-sounding phrases.

 

I'm aware of some of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy, in my mind the fundamental thing is the complete lack of any fundamental concern for others. When I say complete I mean complete. Among high-profile MAGA folks I feel like Tucker Carlson is an actual sociopath but no others are coming to mind. Of course this is my personal read.

 

I'm a little opposed to doing psychological analyses of Trump, at least being serious about it. Such discussions have this vibe to me that we need to come up with some diagnosis to properly categorize him as an infantile, idiotic destroyer. Whether he fits any diagnoses for formal mental conditions doesn't change at all what he's said and done, and is unnecessary. But that said, just in the interest of the curiosity of reasonable people, I'd say he's rampantly narcissistic. Perhaps a professional would diagnose him with narcissistic personality disorder.

 

 

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Funny how Trump supporters accuse Biden of acting senile...

Nikki Haley wants Biden tested

[Still]

On 3/24/2023 at 5:59 PM, daveb said:

I don't think DeSantis cares about the country (not without twisting that into some grotesque mockery of the idea). I think he cares about power. I'm not sure he even has any beliefs or ideals other than whatever serves himself. That's just my impression, of course, and I can't say I have followed him closely (I don't think I could stomach it). If anything, I find him scarier than some/most of the others, just from what little I know about what he's done in Florida. One thing that is worse than an incompetent fascist is a competent one, or at least one that has enough backing to get some things done, as I don't know how competent he actually is compared to another Florida man.

You and everyone else in this thread should read up on his role in torturing inmates at Guantanamo Bay.

[daveb]

2 hours ago, Still said:

You and everyone else in this thread should read up on his role in torturing inmates at Guantanamo Bay.

Why? Is it going to give me cause to think more highly of him?

[Still]

1 hour ago, daveb said:

Why? Is it going to give me cause to think more highly of him?

No, it's going to give you cause to think he's even more despicable than you already thought.

[daveb]

3 hours ago, Still said:

No, it's going to give you cause to think he's even more despicable than you already thought.

OK, well I'm not sure that's possible.  

[Sally]

DeSantis and Trump are very different, even though they might seem to espouse the same beliefs or actions.   I think DeSantis really believes that what he is doing is right.  He could have fairly easily have used the power he has in Florida in promoting less draconian measures, but he chose to push them through legislatively, and now he  uses his power to enact them by executive dictates.  He isn't charismatic; in fact, I've read that his problem in running for President is that in person, he's stiff and awkward.  His meanness is what makes him stand out.  He doesn't put  his foot in his mouth, so he's a known product.  The GOP might want that instead of a loose cannon.

 

Trump doesn't believe a damn thing, because he can't keep anything in mind long enough to examine it to determine whether it's worthy of belief.  He's simply mental chaos on two legs.  He's charismatic for people who need an entertainer who makes fun of the same things they hate.  If he and DeSantis are opponents for the GOP nomination, it's hard to predict who will win.  Even if Trump doesn't win as many primaries as DeSantis does, there might be some way the GOP leadership could nominate him because they think he's more likely to win.   

 

Either way, the country is fucked, because I can't think of a Dem who has enough gravitas to fight against that trainwreck.  I don't believe Biden is too old, but I'm afraid that voters will think he is too old.  That would be a waste of the best President we've had since FDR.  

[Fraggle Underdark]

I'm not too worried, I think it's nearly impossible for Trump to win a general election at this point, and DeSantis is running on his opposition to the way a lot of the rest of the country does things. (He'd have a shot though, unlike Trump.) I don't know who the democratic candidate would be but I'm curious to see how things go. I don't think Biden should run again, I like him a lot as president but I think in the climate of the next election other candidates would be better picks.

[Olallieberry]

.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Ollie415
Moving to PPS since this wasn't particularly about Trump.

[Sally]

1 hour ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

I think it's nearly impossible for Trump to win a general election at this point

That's what many of us thought in 2016.  And the people who voted for him then, and in 2020, will still vote for him.  Those people aren't Santis votes; he's too cold for them.

[Fraggle Underdark]

6 minutes ago, Sally said:

That's what many of us thought in 2016.  And the people who voted for him then, and in 2020, will still vote for him.  Those people aren't Santis votes; he's too cold for them.

I mean I've been wrong about the weather some times in my life, that doesn't mean I'm going to be wrong every time about the weather.

 

Trump was a change of pace before, a lot of people wanted to "mix it up" and "get a non-politician in the White House". A lot of "sure, let's give that a shot". But now it's been done, there's no unknown or magic this time. And whereas before he had bold braggadocio now he whines all the time about the mean things people have done to him.

[Olallieberry]

Trump's base is verifiably shrinking. CPAC attendance was pathetic this month - and Trump didn't even try to claim it was "the biggest in history" and "media images were faked". He's barely even calling it in an effort at campaigning at this point. He's clinging to his most loyal supporters instead of trying to attract non-MAGA Republicans.

 

I know, I know, back in 2016 people thought Trump's base was too small to win, and they could say we're undercounting or not seeing them today too. But in 2016, the Republican party was not visibly fractured.

 

There's still a year and a half to go, I suppose anything could happen.

[Missing]

The midterm results were encouraging, that more republicans seem to be getting tired of Trumpism.

 

Also, in 2016 there were people who voted for Trump out of protest, thinking he couldn’t win. They probably won’t make that mistake twice.

 

Then there’s the fact that Trump didn’t win the popular vote the first time around, so as long as the weakening of his votes happen in those determining states, we won’t have a repeat of last time. It was unlikely for him to win the first time, but the fact that he did win doesn’t mean it’s now likely for him to win this time. Never say never when talking about probability, but it is very unlikely for him to win.

 

But that’s all assuming that he isn’t in prison by the next election, of course.

[ben8884]

I don't *think* Trump will win in 2024  but honestly we can never count him out. But the problem goes beyond Trump, we need to take on the so-called "culture warriors." 

[Tetus]

I used to live in Florida. DeSantis, like much of the Republican Party these days, does not believe in anything other than trying to ride the discontent of white working class people to political power. 
 

The stupid and hateful laws he is passing are stupid laws, but they aren’t meant to be good laws: they’re meant to stir the pot. Fighting a battle against Disney is ridiculous for an ostensibly pro-business party, but again, the point isn’t to win these fights or accomplish anything via policy: it’s to be seen fighting. Because if there is opposition, now they have an enemy to put on camera. And if minorities get hurt or killed, that may not be the point, but if they are dead or too scared to leave their homes, they probably aren’t coming to the polls.

 

The GOP has fielded no serious candidate since Trump, because thus far, they don’t see the point of doing so. And they’re kind of right: why bother? The election won’t be decided on the issues anyway, and no amount of failing to live up to campaign promises will have a real impact on the re-election campaign.

 

We aren’t part of an America trying to avoid becoming a failed state. We are an America in the process of failing.

[Fraggle Underdark]

Many disasters are avoided or greatly reduced by the act of people taking them very seriously. And I'm not remotely saying it's incorrect to take problems seriously. But just in the interest of fighting against despair anyone might be feeling, there have been far worse parties and politicians in our history than DeSantis and culture war Republicans (as bad as they genuinely are). They need to be opposed but the country has made it through much worse.

 

[Tetus]

23 minutes ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

Many disasters are avoided or greatly reduced by the act of people taking them very seriously. And I'm not remotely saying it's incorrect to take problems seriously. But just in the interest of fighting against despair anyone might be feeling, there have been far worse parties and politicians in our history than DeSantis and culture war Republicans (as bad as they genuinely are). They need to be opposed but the country has made it through much worse.

 

People who take problems seriously can be reasoned with, because they want to solve the problem. If there is any value in our system of electoral government, the people we elect should be serious about trying to make things better. 
 

They aren’t, and have no reason to be.

[Sally]

21 hours ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

Trump was a change of pace before, a lot of people wanted to "mix it up" and "get a non-politician in the White House". A lot of "sure, let's give that a shot". But now it's been done, there's no unknown or magic this time. And whereas before he had bold braggadocio now he whines all the time about the mean things people have done to him.

People who realized that they really didn't want who he is didn't vote for him in 2020, although they may have in 2016.  However, many people did vote for him in 2020, because they wanted who he has proven to be.  Those people can't be discounted.

[Fraggle Underdark]

40 minutes ago, Sally said:

People who realized that they really didn't want who he is didn't vote for him in 2020, although they may have in 2016.  However, many people did vote for him in 2020, because they wanted who he has proven to be.  Those people can't be discounted.

Yeah true. Though he seemed like a less insane whiny person in his behavior before losing, Jan 6th, etc.

[ben8884]

Inside Job sad it best when they said we are in the era of infalibility. Basically a candidate can do what they want and still get support because he is "their guy" on abortion or "their guy" on immigration. Got a candidate who say, used campaign money to pay a woman he slept with hush money? Well, he won't make us pronouns. Got a candidate who is trying to ease the trans community? Well, at least he speaks out against abortion! Candidates can do what they want, lie to who they want and steal from who they want. As long as Trump or DeSantis don't start "going soft" on the border wall or a woman's right to choose, they're "our guy." Now, I am not saying the left doesn't do this to a degree, but it is much, much more prevalent on the right.

[Sally]

3 hours ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

Yeah true. Though he seemed like a less insane whiny person in his behavior before losing, Jan 6th, etc.

Just about the first thing he did as President was firing the head of the FBI, James Comey, because Comey wouldn't promise that he would be loyal to Trump.   That's pretty insane and whiny.  Then he fired several Attorneys General -- the ones that he had put in place -- because they wouldn't be promise to be loyal either.  

[Fraggle Underdark]

10 hours ago, Sally said:

Just about the first thing he did as President was firing the head of the FBI, James Comey, because Comey wouldn't promise that he would be loyal to Trump.   That's pretty insane and whiny.  Then he fired several Attorneys General -- the ones that he had put in place -- because they wouldn't be promise to be loyal either.  

Yeah, all true, also all not Jan 6th or as obviously whiny.

[Purple Red Panda]

Indicted 😂

[RoseGoesToYale]

 

CHARGE(D)!

[ben8884]

I have a question, what does this mean? Like, will he have to go to Court? Or is he OK as long as he never sets foot in New York State again?

[Sally]

On 3/27/2023 at 5:38 PM, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

Yeah true. Though he seemed like a less insane whiny person in his behavior before losing, Jan 6th, etc.

Can't get the above off, and can't get the image to show wording.  $^&*@!!

 

Anyway, he's now been charged with a crime and his attorneys can either get him to voluntarily surrended to be arrested, or he'll have to be taken in by the cops.