Master Trump Thread

[LeChat]

@daveb Thanks, for the further explanation. I know it must've taken a long time to write, but it really helped me understand what you were asking, a lot better.

[Tabula Rasa]

3 hours ago, daveb said:

I guess my point is, I don't understand the apparent vehemence of the support and/or defense of Trump. Maybe that's just me.

I think it’s because non-Americans haven’t experienced the effects of racist policies on American soil. They’ve got blind spots. Every country has its race problems, but the USA is unique.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, The Bookworm said:

I think it’s because non-Americans haven’t experienced the effects of racist policies on American soil. 

I hear things from relatives, but it's not the same as living it day and day out. 

 

I consider myself extremely lucky, in that I never get harassed by police as an adult in my city.

 

Last time I did, was in Philadelphia. Got followed, and grilled with rapid fire questions. 

 

All the while, was thinking: "are you serious?!" 

 

But this is the norm to some. 

 

There are many layers of things I have been told about. However know am quite lucky to not have experienced things as bad as they could be.

[Clumsy Fairy]

18 hours ago, daveb said:

why defend Trump?

I don't see what I do as "Defending Trump", and I am reasonably confident you had me in mind. 

 

I just feel that there is so much said about him that is baseless, and there is an attitude that "If you don't hate trump and believe anything said about him, then you are some sort of Nazi". This attitude is the thing that gets me cross, and the personal insults, and total demonisation of the man, and anyone who supports him that I really care about. I know I seem to be in a minority, but I hate bigotry. I think it should be called out and people should stop thinking it only applies to ideas they agree with. 

 

I will remind you all of the meaning, as it seems "It doesn't mean what you think it means".,

 

bigotry

/ˈbɪɡətri/

noun

 

1. intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

   "the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry"

   synonyms:

   prejudice, bias, partiality, partisanship, sectarianism, discrimination, unfairness, injustice;More

[Clumsy Fairy]

Ok I have had time to sleep. @Sally

 

I will try and reply to this again.

 

I did NOT ask for info on the USA. I was answering you, and YOUR ideas about how the USA should be run. 

 

@Sally You originally wrote:"

The people who do the unskilled work in the US are immigrants from Mexico and Mesoamerica, not US citizens.   That's pretty much tradition in this country.  Most of them are illegal".

 

I then wrote:

YES AND THAT is the Problem!!! What do all the unskilled citizens do for money and health care? Or are you REALLY telling me that ALL Americans are skilled workers? Is the reason that poor people, unskilled people are voting for what seems like nationalist cause? This is the very place that the far left agenda falls to bits because somewhere in your system you need jobs for your own unskilled workers, and you can't expect them to live on a wage for people who are not paying taxes. 

 

You then reply with:

Oh for petes sake, don't expect everyone to give you complete info on the US.  Google; read books; quit lecturing us on what's wrong with our country.  We're quite aware.  

 

While I can, and do do a great deal of reading on the subject of USA politics we were as I thought having a discussion on the subject of policy. YOUR policy ideas. I was under the impression that you had at least understood the ideas you advocate for, and could therefor reasonably be expected to answer reasonable questions. 

 

I don't think that asking a question constitutes "Lecturing". I am sorry to be in the tiny minority of people on AVEN, and on this thread that questions the accuracy of political propaganda, and also wishes to formulate my own opinions.

 

My own opinion on the issue of immigration is simple, and one that has not been answered, and in my opinion is the very reason that American politics is in the state it is in. It is great for business, but terrible for everyone else.

 

It stems from huge swathes of the population being ignored, and to understand it you would be better going and reading the internet, books, etc than listening to me, especially if you are going to engage in a political discussion. Gas lighting those you debate about information gathering does not a reasoned argument make.

 

The fact is that what is being put forward as a sensible idea is that the government condones criminal acts, it has now got to the point where people have forgotten so utterly about the "Illegal" part of "Illegal migration" that they demonise institutions for actually doing their job. 

 

The MAJOR flaw for me in the argument of illegal immigration is that ir gives those who do not live in the country considerable advantage to those that do. An american unskilled worker, cannot go to any other country, and earn enough money in a few months, that they can return to their own country with enough money to live in comfort for extended periods. That American HAS to pay his taxes, and HAS to be paid a certain wage. If a company can get away with paying less, then they will.

 

The next problem arises in the country where people have come from, if enough people are working in another country, then the prices of things like houses, and food goes up, meaning that the ONLY way that people can afford to live is if they go to another country. This then means that the requirement for people with skilled work diminishes, and the country looses it's skilled work force.  It also means that the cost of internal wages rises as there are less people willing to do the work in that country for the same amount of money. Basically speaking the more people go to work abroad the worse the situation gets for the people back at home, and rather than helping the country it makes things a lot worse. The other issue is that taxes have to rise in the home country as most of the money is being earned tax free 

 

The next group of people this effects are The immigrants themselves, because not only are they forced to deal with very dangerous people, they are running the risk of capture, and imprisonment. They are also in a trap of needing to keep working abroad to sustain their, and their families  life style. This becomes a huge vicious circle. Lets not also forget that while in the country where they work, because they are displacing the local workforce they are singled out in what is wrongly seen as racism, but is in fact nationalism. It's not nationalism based on cultural hate, but rather because people in the home country feel abandoned by everyone. 

 

The group that is the worst affected are those who cannot afford to work. The group most demonised, ignored, and who have the least choice. There is some sort of liberal myth that there are no unskilled people in America, and they don't even deserve any help, because in America hard work is rewarded, and being unskilled has I think more social stigma there than anywhere else I know. So many people just don't acknowledge they even exist, but in actual fact they are a substantial part of the population. There isn't another first world country I know of where it is normal for people to call a caravan their full time home. What is more surprising is that American land is very cheep, and the average square foot of living space is if not the highest in the world, it's damn near the top. These people have no choice in the matter of being able to work abroad for more money, because they are at the top of the food chain. So american unskilled workers are forced to compete for jobs with people who don't need housing, health care, don't need to pay tax, and don't come under any employment law. The only reason that the low skilled American is totally screwed is that those who would take their job have a different skin colour, so any complaints, and the easy label of "Racist" can be applied to stop the communication.

 

In my mind the real racist are those that see this as a racist issue. Because they say, and it has been said here that there "Aren't any unskilled Americans". It's the most racist thing that those who push the "Open door" policy say. How the fuck do you get away with saying that because they have dark skin, then they are unskilled? I mean it's not like the American education system is any good. HERE is a list, the USA is 14th, I mean ex soviet states rank higher. Also, are people aware that many people who do really well in education in foreign countries make up a disproportional amount of economic migration? 

 

I will leave this here, as I don't want to just make another wall of text.. Just please... If you want to debate someone, mock them, and you find it impossible to say a friendly word about them, then at least try not to turn your own lack of knowledge or understanding into a weapon to use on someone else. I have been an economical migrant, most of my friends are migrants, and I have been in a country, and seen what happens to it when another country opens it's doors to such migration. I have also lived in a country when the effects of that migration have been a big issue. I am not speaking hypothetically, I am talking from first hand experience. 

 

[pickles.]

17 hours ago, G0D said:

I just feel that there is so much said about him that is baseless, and there is an attitude that "If you don't hate trump and believe anything said about him

I've been carefully reading the news since he was sworn in on January 20, 2017 (had not been a news junkie before that), and most of what is "said" about him is the appalling stuff that comes out of his own mouth or is tweeted by his own fingers.  

[Clumsy Fairy]

1 minute ago, pickles mcgee said:

I've been carefully reading the news since he was sworn in on January 20, 2017 (had not been a news junkie before that), and most of what is "said" about him is the appalling stuff that comes out of his own mouth or is tweeted by his own fingers.  

Excellent, post some of that, and I can join you in condemning it. 

[Colonel Aureliano Buendía]

On migration in the US and racism, I'd like to point out a few things, not necessarily in dissent to either stance, but I think they're important to point out.

First, people often conflate illegal immigrants to the US with people legally seeking asylum. A lot of the people who come to the Southern border do so in order to seek asylum due to things like domestic violence or gang violence. They are not illegal immigrants at all.

Second, it's a seperate debate if you're talking about illegal immigrants who are already in the country, living and working, and people who are trying to enter the country. You might want to prevent people illegally entering the country, but prefer to largely let them be once they're there for a variety of reasons (like not wanting their communities to be afraid to report crimes to the police).

Last, while there are reasonable arguments for stricter immigration policies, there are also arguments based, at least partially, in racist beliefs. And people sometimes use one of them to make the other more saleable. It benefits no one to pretend all the arguments are the latter, and it benefits no one to pretend they're all the former.

[Tabula Rasa]

@Colonel Aureliano Buendía Great post. This is what is missing from the national debate, -- nuance. For the most part, people don't work hard at parsing their own thoughts, and instead they make generalisations and/or cloak their racism with their arguments.

[Gentle Giant]

On 12/1/2018 at 11:48 PM, pickles mcgee said:

I've been carefully reading the news since he was sworn in on January 20, 2017 (had not been a news junkie before that), and most of what is "said" about him is the appalling stuff that comes out of his own mouth or is tweeted by his own fingers.  

Same here. It’s his own words and actions that are the reason I can’t stand him.

 

I read what Trump wrote about George H. W. Bush and was surprised by it. Not only because of the feud he has going on with the Bush family but also It doesn’t sound like anything he would say. I think someone probably wrote it for him. George H. W. Bush was a respectable and compassionate man. Trump will never be remembered in that way.

[Clumsy Fairy]

14 hours ago, Gentle Giant said:

George H. W. Bush was a respectable and compassionate man.

<spits coffee all over his monitor, and keyboard>

Really? 

No REALLY?

[vmdraco]

10 hours ago, G0D said:

<spits coffee all over his monitor, and keyboard>

Really? 

No REALLY?

lmao I was just gonna say... y'all thinking of some other George Bush?

[daveb]

Time and Trump, as well as the usual forgiveness we often give to people who have died, probably make the elder Bush seem not so bad. I wonder how peoples' perceptions of Trump will change once he passes away. (although I think history won't be overly kind to him, but you never know)

 

As for Trump in the here and now, his twitterings about some deal with the Chinese (as if it were a fait accompli) have lead to some not so good days on the stock market. Which also impacts things like retirement funds and 401k accounts. So should we praise the master of the art of the deal? Or say it's not his fault and everyone else is to blame? This is just one of the many things he does that makes me dislike him. Shooting his mouth off (or his fingers?) with little or no apparent thought of how it can impact things. It looks like he has no self-control. A scary quality in a world leader. But I guess some people think it's fine.

[Sally]

"Not very good days on the stock market."   Like more than 800 points lost on the Dow, and the bond market worrying everyone.  

 

I very much doubt if anyone will say anything good about Trump when he dies.  There is nothing good to say, policy-wise (since he has no policies) or personally.   He has been the Destoyer in Chief.

[Tabula Rasa]

Did Trump even say anything at Bush’s funeral? It seems he was mute. That’s not what a real president would do.

[daveb]

If he didn't say anything that was probably one of the smartest things he's ever done.  

[Sally]

I'm sure they didn't want him to say anything, for obvious reasons.

 

All of the ex-presidents and their wives were talking companiably before the Trumps showed up; once they sat, everyone just stared ahead.  He's said nasty things about all of them at least once.  

[The Dryad]

I've only lived through four presidency eras: Clinton, W. Bush, Obama, and Trump, three humans and an unidentified orange species (lol, jk), even though domestic politics and wartime politics and actions get debated on and criticized, I feel like the previous three President's I've seen were decent humans trying to appease their base while trying to strive for the greater good, whatever they thought that was. With Obama, people say he was really ineffective, but I think he wanted to stay alive so he did the minimum and definitely did whatever the powers that be said to do.

 

Honestly, we talk about Trump, whether in passive support/defense of him or we're more likely to criticize him (or demonize), but I've honestly never seen someone so inhumane in politics before, someone without morals- even Andrew Jackson, who I consider a monster in many ways, destroyed the banks, because he was looking out for the overall good of the U.S., and we can only speculate on Trump's business deals while working as the sitting resident. 

 

You can believe what you want about his politics, but we all know he's not a good person, from the ways he cheated publically on his wife, and tried to hide his business deals, made racist remarks and started the birther movement on Obama, which was extremely damaging and invalidating as a black person to be publically called "not American", or "not one of us", to casually accepting KKK members and not demonizing them and his support of disgustingly racist candidates. We don't need to look any closer at Trump to know what he's all about, and what he represents, this isn't making assumptions.

 

Even if I wasn't alive, I still know H.W. Bush was widely criticized for his policies, but his humanity, and decency was always on display, and with his passing he takes with him an era, and I hope he finds peace with his wife and daughter.

[daveb]

I would not say Obama was ineffective. He did some good things, often within the confines of an opposition-lead Congress who resisted most of the things he tried to do (with the Republican-dominated Senate outright refusing to even consider Obama's SC nominee, based on false premises. But what can you expect from a party that does things like enact laws to limit the powers of governors and other office holders when Democrats get elected to those offices, or that tries all sorts of tactics to limit voting rights, including unethical and even criminal means?)

 

As for Trump, it is a matter of public record that he departs from many of the expected and accepted practices of any/all previous presidents. Many people think that's not good; that it may quite possibly even be criminal in some cases. Maybe 38% seem to be okay with it (although even some of his supporters distance themselves from some things he says/does).

[Skycaptain]

@The Dryad, to say that there's been nobody as inhumane as Fuckfart is being a little bit mean. Let's be fair, unlike Pol-pot, Chairman Mao, Hitler to name but three, he hasn't yet committed mass genocide, launched major invasions of foreign nations etc. 

[daveb]

11 minutes ago, Sleighcaptain said:

@The Dryad, to say that there's been nobody as inhumane as Fuckfart is being a little bit mean. Let's be fair, unlike Pol-pot, Chairman Mao, Hitler to name but three, he hasn't yet committed mass genocide, launched major invasions of foreign nations etc. 

I believe she was talking in terms of US politics, and presidents in particular.  

[The Dryad]

3 hours ago, Sleighcaptain said:

@The Dryad, to say that there's been nobody as inhumane as Fuckfart is being a little bit mean. Let's be fair, unlike Pol-pot, Chairman Mao, Hitler to name but three, he hasn't yet committed mass genocide, launched major invasions of foreign nations etc. 

I meant of US Presidents, and yes Andrew Jackson committed mass genocide, and I really hate Andrew Jackson- to me, if it were socially acceptable, I suspect Trump would be on the same level as Andrew Jackson and create his own travesty, what I meant was Trump's potential to do any lasting good for the Nation is pretty low. 

 

As far as America goes for invading and occupying Nations....and bombing them...yeah we've been doing that for decades now, so no modern US President is free of blood on his hands. We just don't hear about it.

[daveb]

Apparently (according to news reports) Trump is miffed and showing it around the White House. The reason he is miffed, according to the reports, is that he got annoyed that recent focus was on a past president rather than on him. And probably that that focus was more positive than the focus on him ever is. At least he got some praise from some sources for not messing up the funeral. 

[thylacine]

On 12/5/2018 at 1:00 AM, G0D said:

<spits coffee all over his monitor, and keyboard>

Really? 

No REALLY?

Well, he was better than what we have now.

[Sally]

On 12/6/2018 at 11:52 AM, Sleighcaptain said:

@The Dryad, to say that there's been nobody as inhumane as Fuckfart is being a little bit mean. Let's be fair, unlike Pol-pot, Chairman Mao, Hitler to name but three, he hasn't yet committed mass genocide, launched major invasions of foreign nations etc. 

I'm sure "in American politics" was what The Dryad meant.  

[Gentle Giant]

On 12/5/2018 at 12:00 AM, G0D said:

<spits coffee all over his monitor, and keyboard>

Really? 

No REALLY?

So, you have a problem with Bush who actually did have good qualities, but you defend Trump who has none.

[Guest]

On 12/5/2018 at 5:02 PM, daveb said:

It looks like he has no self-control. 

He is living proof that you can't run a country like you would a business. 

 

Cutting costs at dead weight expenses with no second thought doesn't work out too well, when you factor in public backlash and the domino effect this causes. 

 

Business is often black and white.

 

Thats probably why he loved it. It's what I love about it and law.

 

Hes the boss. Period. Undermine him and you're fired.

 

Sure you can do so in the white house, but expect to be put under the intense light of public opinion and scrutiny in doing so. 

 

He is having a hard time figuring out that a leader to a country is responsible for serving it. They are your bosses. Takes a level of humility to serve others. 

 

Politics have so many subtle nuances to them, that he is clearly blind to. 

 

He has zero self control, and unfortunately that's why he was elected. 

 

He talked in a very blunt manner, that was mistakenly taken as honesty. 

 

He boldly put reporters notorious for spinning stories in their places. Humiliated others. Gave people the perception this guy had king size balls. Wouldn't be a puppet. 

 

He cheated on his wife, but so did Clinton. While he didn't ever get to serve, so did Martin Luthor King, to name a couple. 

 

He will benefit from the forgiveness of many, due to how it seems he was unfairly covered in the media when truly consider what he has done, vs others.

 

It also seems blasphemous to talk in a non negative fashion about him in public, which further rallies his people. 

[Tabula Rasa]

His base really wants a dictatorship under his rule, because legally they can't reinstate the Antebellum south, nor can they reinstate Jim Crow. They can only do so via totalitarian means.

[ParadoxGenie]

My father who is a factory floor associate for a different car manufacturer has no sympathy or anything for the workers of gm losing their jobs, and think that they just move a phone or something to the side three times a day and just sit there and make 60 bucks and hour. Instead of actually watching and seeing they are actual workers just like him, and I've been warning him for like a year that the tariffs and shit would backfire on car factories and omg he is insane. He believes what he wants and worships trump as an idol, and thinks that if something isn't perfect why bother trying at all ect. He literally threatens to hurt or kill all the time to every person/animal, to the point I don't think people take him seriously, except for me, simply because he hasn't done anything yet, and there's no getting him help, or arguing with him ect. Even if trump gets locked up, he will probably think trump was framed, ect.

And you know something, my father wasn't that bad before Trump and all this ever loving bs. Like yeah, he had moments where he would quietly be sexist or racist, but now, now it's all in the open, and he thinks it's okay, because look at the leader and the rest of the country. I knew, that trump during the campaign was going to start shit, and then as a leader escalate it, and it did, but I never imagined it'd be in my own family. Literally excuses rape and sexual harassment in peoples past, and everything else, because he feels that's normal because of the current administration has done. I try to even avoid looking at trump and all that crap he's doing, and just look forward to him getting locked up, and how to fix humanities future from here. 

 

But the biggest threat, is that he's doing and allowing things that could kill the planet, just because he won't be here. And our clock is ticking and every year for the next 11 Years counts. It's hard to fix a planet. It's hard to know that Yellowstone has had a field year this year cuz it was so much warmer than usual, and that's only going to get worse. And I could rant all day.

[The Dryad]

@ParadoxGenie

 

That's extremely disheartening, and so sad. I know the first reaction most Trump critics have for Trump supporters is anger, and yeah I get angry sometimes (especially when I hear them excusing sexual assault, slavery, etc.). But lately I've been extremely.... sympathetic towards the ignorant folks in our society.

 

Ignorance means not knowing, and Trump supporters tend to be fairly naive.

 

Truth is most racist folks these days are disadvantaged white people who don't know anything about black people or Hispanic people, nor the history nor what's happening around them, all they know is they are suffering- and it's been proven that once a racist gets to know another person of a hated race, they usually change. It's extremely easy to blame crime or poverty on people who are different from you and lower on the social ladder than you, but you should actually be blaming these things on the faulty government and Nation that you worship. Those CEOs you kiss up to? They're the ones taking your money. That President's policies? They're the ones closing down farms and manufacturing plants.