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Master Trump Thread


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116 pages of "Orange Man Bad"... <chuckles>... I would post the choon by John Ward.

 

I just found that the choon I wanted to parp your way actually sounds great played onside it:

 

 

 

I think it's just my age....

 

I grew up with Americans making what I thought were just comedic choices at the ballot box.

 

The first POTUS I remember was Ray-Gun. A name that was hilarious at the time.

 

Then we had Bush <sniggers>. Yeah but at the time it was relief from the comic release of Ray-gun.. I am not sure if he had to be reminded of his name from time to time.

 

Then we had Clitn.. no I mean Clinton (Mr "I didn't have sex with that 'woman').. Ho ho ho...

 

Then we had more Bush <sniggers>... His ONLY outward display of intelligence was the fact he managed to avoid two shoes when thrown at him.

 

THEN we had Obama. And the whole world thought "HURRAY the yanks finally got round to voting someone sensible into the white house". But he went the same way as Blair. The whole world was so happy he ended up in office, but like Blair he turned out to be all smiles and promises, and actions that displayed an utter disregard for popular opinion.

 

Then.. Oh Shit, you yanks got your sense of humour back. Trump just makes you all mad, and you just don't get that your anger and over reaction is EXACTLY the point.

 

The reason anyone above 35 are just so chilled about it all, is simple. We have seen it all before. 

 

Feel free to flame me, and tell me how terrible I am, and misguided I am, and how much this all "Matters".. I just don't care.... It doesn't...

 

I wish the "Left" had a coherent argument. But really what is it? "Orange man bad", and "Oh wow, wow, and thrice wow"! Can't someone think of the <minority group>.

 

Tell me how terrible people have it, The thing that has been evident in EVERY US Election is that the person with the more positive message wins...

 

Orange man got in cos of "MAGA".. The Clintons lost cos all anyone had to say was "YOUR SEXIST IF YOU DON'T VOTE FOR A WOMAN"!

 

It Happens every time, and it will keep happening. 

 

An as for me.. I really don't care...

 

This thread should be the focus of someones thesis.

 

Asexual people it seems, all have the same political outlook.  

 

Ho HO... 

 

Please feel free to flame me! I promise not to "Report" anyone. 

 

Enjoy!

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1 hour ago, G0D said:

We have seen it all before. 

That is incorrect. We have not seen this before in American presidents. The degree of ignorance, incompetence, disregard for the Constitution and the rule of law, the lack of common decency, racism, sexism, bigotry, support for dictators, etc., etc., is staggeringly unprecedented. And it's not just about degrees, but the kinds of things he does that other presidents didn't do, some just gauche, but many others that are hurtful, unethical, unproductive, and/or illegal (allegedly). He's lucky that he is still riding the coattails of an improved economy that started under Obama. But even then, his policies have caused some bumps there, too. If he keeps it up the economy won't be able to keep up.

 

It's not just "Trump bad". There are any number of things people can and have pointed to that show how bad he is. 

 

If people choose to ignore the evidence or dismiss it I can't help that. If people choose to believe he's no different from other presidents I can't help that.

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By Constitutional guidelines President Trump legally able to hold the Presidential Office. Each President, every session of congress,  every supreme judge has slowly eroded the Constitution. It has not been a single person or group it has not been an over night process, nor does the US Constitution doesn’t favor a political affiliations.

 

Americans are filled with utter hatred on both sides of the argument they forget they are Americans first. 

 

Sometimes one poltical party wins and sometimes they lose. That is apart of the political system that has been created.

 

Everyone wanted to grab a copy of 1984 when President Trump was elected. Why not fresh ourselves on the US Constitution instead?

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2 hours ago, daveb said:

If people choose to ignore the evidence or dismiss it I can't help that. If people choose to believe he's no different from other presidents I can't help that.

I just don't care !  Who's lives are worse off? As much as people keep pointing, and making accusations, I could so easily give examples, but I know there is just no point, Orange Man Bad !!! 

 

The evidence. oh lordy.. Where do people get this "Evidence"? A thread on AVEN? 

 

There are no non biased news sources any more, and people listen to what pleases them (Or in this day and age what enrages them the most).

 

I take in as much as I can from where ever I can. I feel a duty to be informed, and not through any particular lens. 

 

My personal opinion of trump is very similar to GW Bush, though that guy was WAY more scary, and had so much more blood on his hands that the orange bloke. At least trump pretends to be intelligent, GW. I have to remember that most of the people on here were not about in 2001, well, maybe they were, but too young to remember. 

 

Have some Bush: This guy sent people to war, lots of them... And your all ape about Trump.. 

 

 

 

Maybe next time yall vote for someone more...errr... y' know... 

 

 

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11 hours ago, daveb said:

We have not seen this before in American presidents. The degree of ignorance, incompetence, disregard for the Constitution and the rule of law, the lack of common decency, racism, sexism, bigotry, support for dictators, etc., etc., is staggeringly unprecedented.

I would add that this is unprecedented because from an energetic point of view, his behaviour and the support of his base is like a child throwing a tantrum (white rage) when they are hit with a heavy dose of reality (diversity and social progress) and the fact that they don't have the power they think they have.

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3 hours ago, G0D said:

Who's lives are worse off?

Plenty of people. Just on a financial level, me for one.

 

3 hours ago, G0D said:

Where do people get this "Evidence"? A thread on AVEN? 

Nope. Things like his tweets, his speeches and rallies, things that actually happen, like stock market fluctuations, and much more. Or are you claiming none of that happens. Or that you somehow know better because you have better sources? Seems a bit arrogant to assume we are all less knowledgeable than you just because we don't agree.

 

3 hours ago, G0D said:

I have to remember that most of the people on here were not about in 2001, well, maybe they were, but too young to remember. 

Another bit of arrogance, eh? I know for a fact that there are people on this thread who have been around at least as long as you. People like me who remember when JFK was assassinated, who saw the whole Watergate mess, senate hearings and all, as they happened, and have been voting well before Reagan was elected. Some of us remember when he was governor of California. Some probably remember when he was just an actor. So save your remarks about age.

 

3 hours ago, G0D said:

Maybe next time yall vote for someone more

I'd wager most if not all of us did not vote for Trump. We knew better. We didn't have to see him become president and screw it all up to know we didn't want him there.

 

You say you don't care. It's fine for you, if you don't live in the US (as appears to be the case given some of the ways you frame things).

 

Some of us are Americans and we do care what sort of person is in charge of the country and what sort of person represents us (or is supposed to, anyway).

 

Or, since you say you don't care, maybe you're just here to stir things up?

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The stupid thing is, and I have said it before, I really don't like Trump. He's an uncouth and annoying person. 

 

The point I was trying to make is that this has been going on for so long, Obama was the first president in my life time I thought actually had a hope of changing the way politics in the USA was done. But like Blair in the UK, It turned out to be all hot air, and just like that it's back to the usual.

 

The smoke and mirrors in politics is what annoys me the most. I mean look at it, it's bizarre, people are more divided than ever before, political discussion is impossible, the attitude of "You are either with me or you are against me", and the name calling, etc, etc. It's nuts, and rather than look for any way forward, or any concessions, people just want to chuck around accusations "You like Trump, you must be a Nazi, or bigot or some other thing". I am not saying that to you @daveb I am just pointing out the way politics has become. 

 

The best illustration of my point here is Brexit. Brexit was for the vast majority (who voted yes) a vote about democracy. People who voted for it wanted to take back the power from a corrupt organisation, and put that power back in the hands of people who one could elect, and communicate with. The opposition... Now they framed it like this "Nationalists, sound a bit like "racists", and if we say it enough, then only racists would want such a thing. They and the media made it out to be that the only people who would want to leave the EU, had to be racist (even though the percentage of the UK population that is of a non white origin is way higher than most other EU countries)... So the referendum happened, and suddenly everyone is in a tiz because those who voted leave are convinced that more than half the country is racists.. This is stupid. It just blows my mind that politics has got to a point where people believe the lies they are telling themselves, and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them are "Racists", or some other thing.

 

I saw the same thing with the Clinton thing. All trump supporters must be sexist because they didn't vote for Hillary. Oh they are all racists because they don't like immigration. Oh and all the other mud slinging... 

 

The issue as I see it is that the media, and now the media we create is becoming more and more about hatred, and discord. Not for the issues, for people who don't think the same way. The middle ground has become no mans land. I count myself as a moderate, and someone who would much rather get along, and try to see both sides of things, but these days I have no friends on either side of the fence. Everyone is so polar in their thoughts, that it's impossible to be reasonable any more.

 

The latest thing was all about a "doctored" video, of a CNN reporter man handling an intern.. Jeez... What a lot of fuss and lies, over nothing. And what better illustration of the hell that has become trying to get accurate news. 

 

Maybe America should revamp the way it does elections, and the way it's politics work, because at the end of the day it really doesn't seem to matter who gets in to "Power", what was going to happen will happen.. I mean... I thought the wall was a bonkers idea, and hilarious, and there was no way it was going to happen, but still it was a HUGE promise to the American people, and people voted for that wall... Where is it??? I guess he'll show a wall somewhere else in the world, spray a flag on it, and claim it's his...  <grin> 

 

Don't worry I will crawl back under my rock now.

 

Vegetable rights, and peas everyone!!

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1 hour ago, daveb said:

Or, since you say you don't care, maybe you're just here to stir things up?

I think that's highly likely, considering god's history on AVEN.  

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12 minutes ago, Sally said:

I think that's highly likely, considering god's history on AVEN.  

You know I am sitting right here...  

 

I know, I know..  He has a different opinion, got to be a 'trouble maker'...

 

Can't possibly be that I actually think a different way...

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, G0D said:

  Who's lives are worse off

The children he locked up in cages who know suffer from PTSD and their families is the very first that come to mind.

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4 minutes ago, G0D said:

You know I am sitting right here...  

 

I know, I know..  He has a different opinion, got to be a 'trouble maker'...

 

Can't possibly be that I actually think a different way...

 

Of course I know you're here.  But I don't get the feeling that you are simply thinking a different way; I don't think that's the case in this thread.  You have been serious in other threads, attempting to have a discussion.  But this one truly sounds like you are trying to rile  people.  

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Just now, iff said:

The children he locked up in cages who know suffer from PTSD and their families is the very first that come to mind.

That story gets more added to it every time I hear it. Weren't those photos actually taken when Obama was in power, and the whole thing went away after wards..  I read a lot about that debarkle. Another one of those stories where one side insists the worst possible thing happened, and the other insists nothing happened at all, but to fit in, I have to profess that I believe the worst possible account is true. This is exactly my problem with US politics these days. One has to "Believe" the worst possible narrative or I am some how a bad person. 

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2 minutes ago, Sally said:

Of course I know you're here.  But I don't get the feeling that you are simply thinking a different way; I don't think that's the case in this thread.  You have been serious in other threads, attempting to have a discussion.  But this one truly sounds like you are trying to rile  people.  

Nope. 

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11 minutes ago, G0D said:

Weren't those photos actually taken when Obama was in power

Nope.  

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One impression I do get is that FF is even less popular overseas than in the USA 

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@G0D

 

I understand what you're saying about not believing everything the media tells you, and to not become so hysterical and divisive, but I'm going to assume you're in the UK and not in America, and as Americans we have a very different perspective than you because of our history and things we inherently know as well as the fluid transfer of information compared to world news- just like you do in the UK understand more local news better than global events!

 

It's much easier to know our own history and prove our history that way, plus we already know all Trump supporters aren't necessarily racists and Nazis, but all Nazis and racists are Trump supporters, and we have social media evidence of Trump's casual acceptance of KKK support while supposedly renouncing them (probably with his fingers crossed behind his back), and we know that he tried to end transgender military service and tried to reenact "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policies- those are clearly bigoted moves by a bigoted man.

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Hello all, first comment in this thread.  Am in the UK, but do spend some time in the US,

 

A couple of thoughts I had in reaction to recent posts:

 

1.)  Brexit - Imho it was impossible for anyone to be rationally certain about the merits of being in/out of the EU.  Economists, historians, politicians were all trying to gaze into their crystal ball and if they were being intellectually honest couldn't be close to certain about the long term merits/pitfalls of being in/out.  The average voter was voting on a feeling, an impulse, based on their experiences and belief system, and possibly which campaign message resonated the most.  Whilst I understand the political shenanigans that led to the referendum, It should never have been left to the public to make such a monumental change in policy.

 

2.)  Divisiveness under Trump.  If we go for the notion that Trump is indeed Putin's useful idiot, then the divisiveness is precisely what he was put there to create.  So it is no accident that Americans cannot have a reasoned debate about politics anymore, that it has become us and them.  There is an excellent piece in the NYT here about how Russian disinformation works.  Trump, regardless of his Russian links, can only survive in a position he isn't intellectually capable of fulfilling by simplistic appeals to base emotional vulnerabilities around the notion of tribe.  I feel most Americans, and most people anywhere, want sensible government, and sensible leaders.  The mid terms, where centrist democratic messaging picked off GOP candidates driven too far to the right by Trump highlighted that.

 

 

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At first I thought that was a parody, but apparently it's for real. :( (it's not even done well)

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You build a grey wall? That is so boring.

 

All the pieces are grey and the same. 

Please parents, if you like your children at all, do not give them that. They will hate it. 

 

There is also a bear out too which appealed me, being a fan of cuddly toys

 

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That wall is boring - no razor wire, real working machine gun, graffiti, searchlights, minefield etc. 

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And that's why the left is loosing. I think that box, the article, and the reaction is a study in the problem with politics at the moment.

 

Again, I know many of you still don't get the fact I am at heart a lefty, but I am.

 

Here is what happened. Some people sat around one day and a conversation insued: 

"Dave, here, have another beer.... Tell you what would be hilarious, a MAGA build a wall lego set", and tell you what else, I bet people will pay for it".

"HAHAHAHAHA Yeah Bob, that would be hilarious",

"Bob, we could totally put loads of pro trump stuff on there, it will be hilarious, the <censored word that would upset 'liberals', rhymes with "bared"">

"Dude, I bet we could so sell it. What would we need"? 

"Nothing to start with, we could just setup a photo shopped box, and take pre-orders, that way we can do the rest later, price it up with a $20 magin, and offer it fo sale"

"Man though those lib*****s they will get so salty, they will totally go all "Won't someone think of the kids"

"HAHAHAHAHA They so will, tell you what, we need to get someone to call a liby news outlet, and they would market it for us with their tears"

"ohhhhhh Dave mate, you are a genius, I am so glad we own a printing company, cos the only thing we really need for this is a package, we can just run it in our box visualiser, and we are golden"

"Ok Bob 'outraged mail sent to that lot who told us all to stop manspreadding"

 

<in a french accent>

- 2 - HOURS  - LATER - 

"Phahaha Bob it worked, look our printing shop is FAMOUS"

"Hahahah, I knew they wouldn't be able to stop themselves"

 

 

The biggest problem with the left (in my opinion) is what I see as a fact, that it is in a perpetual search for offence, and the right are in a constant search to find jokes that they know the left will get mad at. The funny thing is that the left rather than getting a sense of humour wants to ban the jokes, it really is like watching history repeat it's self. 

 

You want to know who still writes the best comedy films? ex communists, the reason is cos most of them all got out of jail at the same time, the "Subversives", especially in the former Czechoslovakia, Czech comedies can be stupid, but a lot are brilliant. You have to know your history though, because they are all political. The problem with banning speech and expression, is that it goes underground, it never goes away, also locking people up for being offensive has ALWAYS been the excuse tyrants use to lock up their detractors. Again looking at history, How many "Tirents" came to power by force? Almost none, they were ellected, and the people gave away their rights in exchange for perceived safety, and all the people who told the jokes, and all the people who didn't think the same were killed, or locked up.

 

Look at AVEN.. Asexuality is something that 1% of the whole population identifies as, that means if voting is anything to go by, there should be about half as many Trupists as there are  non Trumpists. It's not how it looks at all, and why? Because the feeling is "Anyone who could even think about giving trump their vote just isn't welcome here. Some will say it out loud, many will think it, and even more would vote for discipline to be handed out in accordance to political belief. It basically makes AVEN a place where half the asexual people in the USA are not welcome, or if they are it is only if they don't voice their opinions. Politics really has taken the place of religion, people believe in a social desire so much they they cannot even entertain the idea that the opposing thought is even moral.

 

 

Please though, did someone look at that lego, and really think someone was going to actually buy the Lego thing for little Johnny? It's a joke. Clearly a joke.. 

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On 11/13/2018 at 9:59 AM, Mysticus Insanus said:

And now CNN is suing over the Acosta ban. 👍

While I think the ban was overkill, I can't stand Acosta.

 

He's exactly the type of reporting that has me avoid the news (I.E Those who try to enforce highly biased narratives and put words in people's mouths, vs objectively covering the news). If you don't meet their narrative they're pushing, they'll bully you until you submit, or get upset and then either way--make the news.

 

I saw the video. His question was fair. His refusal to stop, and pushing until he got a reaction, was unnecessary. Its cringe worthy to watch.

As far as I'm concerned, he made himself look bad, but is playing the victim. I would have removed the mic from him or silence his mic and grab another  (which was done for the first option), and would've called it a day.

 

I think his tactics, are pretty much Trump getting a taste of his own medicine.

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18 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Or the other reason AVEN is leftish, could be that being on the receiving end of intolerance makes you more empathetic and inclined to consider other people's feelings more. There's a definition of a liberal which is something like 'a right winger who's suffered an injustice'.

Idk.  I have suffered plenty of injustices and I still believe in personal accountability and responsibility.   

 

 

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3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

His refusal to stop, and pushing until he got a reaction, was unnecessary. Its cringe worthy to watch.

The thing is though, the job of the press is to press people, and if Trump can't take the heat, then he needs to get out of the kitchen.

 

If journalists acted in more solidarity at press conferences by collectively demanding an answer when he shuts someone down (like April Ryan) that would make a huge difference.

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4 hours ago, G0D said:

Please though, did someone look at that lego, and really think someone was going to actually buy the Lego thing for little Johnny? It's a joke. Clearly a joke..  

I think the Lego is hilarious in its... baddity :D it also seems to work as intended, getting people scream at the top of their lungs on "social media". To me it's nothing more than a Pawlow-style experiment.

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TL;DR for the TL;DR <grin> : If you can't be arsed, but are semi interested, just read the bit Headed "Hopefully interesting insight on immigration"

 

 

 

TLDR : As I know I go on when I get a bee in my bonnet, I don't mean that AVEN is crap, I just mean that the left has some problems, that I really wish could get resolved in order that discussions don't get curtailed by insults. I also touch on unbiased news. I was tempted to delete all this, and the one above, I'm guessing someone will get cranky at me. Hey someone might just start to get where I am coming from, and realise I am not about "Starting shit". 

 

Sorry I needed to add to that. I had a phone call near the end, and lost my track. This isn't supposed to be a simple shot at AVEN's expense. 

 

What I want to add is that the way AVEN became the way it was, was because systematically things have moved in the direction it has. When I first joined here it was pretty bad, a real shock for me, I came from a place where anything pretty much goes, not political at all, just chilled, the rules were pretty much the same, but here the interpretation of the rules has gone way beyond what many would read them to be. 

 

My point though is not about AVEN, it's about how the same ideas are forcing the world to polarise, and why things look so wrong. 

 

One group of people is looking for more and more reasons to alienate the other. They are using the accusation of bigotry to do it. 

 

On the one side you have people that are really kind minded, looking for a 'kinder' world, but they hate people who are not how they define as "kind". So what has happened is that even the slightest whiff of unkindness from someone, and that person has to be hated. No one gets a chance any more. And as things have progressed the kind people have suddenly become more hateful towards people they define as being unkind than any emotion felt by those alleged to be unkind. 

 

I will give you an example of this, and stupidly because of the way this "kindness" is supposed to work, I CAN say this, as I am myself disabled. 

 

A guy put up a video, a really distressing video, of his friends remains in their cars in the "Camp Fire", in California. The guy just says something like "This is my crippled friend", and the guy is shook up, obviously the word isn't an issue for him, or I guess his just departed friend, but one of the things that many outlets cut from this video was the word "cripple", but had no issue with showing the skeletal remains of other peoples family members. 

 

My honest opinion, and this is one I formulated for myself, it's not some conservative, or liberal talking point is that those  on the right are not nasty people, some are, but as ever, they are tared by the offences of the worst actors. The thing is that they know this, and 99% of those on the right are just decent people who have an different opinion, and it really isn't about hatred or bigotry. Those on the left though have made the whole thing about hatred, and I have seen it written so many times "Not all Trumpists are racists, but all racists are trumpist", my answer to that is two fold. Look if you are offered two choices you have to chose the one that is closest to your perspective. What the left does again and again is take the ones way way furthest as examples, and then tries to use shaming tactics to win. It is in my opinion why no one can predict election results at the moment. The left is making it so that people are ashamed to voice any opinion that isn't in line with the left. I mean just look at talks, and Uni appearances. There are feminist, leftist, BLM and many other groups that are aimed squarely in a direction that does discriminate, no one protests... Anyone even tries to put forward an opinion that is even slightly conservative, and you get people in black ski masks, and baseball bats in your face.

 

Saying "I think the law on immigration should be implemented"  <--- THIS IS WRONG !

Physically harming, those who hold that opinion <--- That's great, hand me a bat !

 

And you want me to vote for that??? What do you think it's called when a state has the power, and it supports of the people to do that? 

 

The amount of people on the night that the 'Orange Man' got elected that said "This proves America is sexist", was stunning. They just don't get it. There were two candidates with a chance of winning, and people went out to vote about politics. Not about personality, not about how stupid they look, NOT ABOUT GENDER. But apparently that has to be the only reason. 

 

If the left ever has a chance of winning again, it need's to stop telling us all the things that it will ban, stop insulting and HATING other political ideas. It needs to come up with some actual policies that PROMOTE something, it needs to address the actual policies, and understand the arguments; and come up with ideas that address the problems, not just deny they exist, and call people racist, or sexist, or bigots. 

 

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I really do believe that most people, are intrinsically good, and we should be trying to find the ways we are alike with one another rather than looking for more and more excuses to hate. We should be seeking out news sources that are non political. I think that every state should have one publicly funded method of broadcast that is legislated to be unbiased, in both what it reports and what it doesn't, and if there are more than one opinion then it those should be acknowledged. A media outlet that does not seek to entertain or to get numbers, but one where everyone can trust in. The BBC used to be that way in the UK, It's not any more, and that is in my opinion because it had to be popular, and get ratings. The problem is that just telling things without bias is unpopular, at least if you are political to one side, you appeal to that ordinance, and have one, if you appeal to no side, then you appeal to no one.

 

I'll shut up with the best example I can think of, and before I start this one, I need to give a little history.. I was born in the UK, I travelled around it quite a bit, and I have lived in another country, that joined the EU while I was there. I learned the language, and love the country, and I would really rather be there, but my disability means I can't. 

 

 

The hopefully interesting insight on immigration.

 

 

Immigration. The quick and dirty News paper headline "They are stealing our jobs".

The quick and dirty response : You are racist"

 

Tell me what happened there. Cos this is what each side believe, and why one side hates the other.

 

Let me tell you my personal view on this, and many more people have MASSIVE reasons to be angry about this.

 

When I settled down after spending the age of 16-20 protesting roads, and the Conservative government, and it's nasty legislation, I needed to get deposit for a flat, and try and get on the job market. Back then there was no free movement of people. I ended up at Mars (the Mars Bar place), and I was doing 12 hour shifts putting 10 boxes in to another box 4 times, and then securing the lid. Back then I was paid £10 an hour, adjusted for inflation that's about £18, or $23 an hour. This was the going rate for mind numbing manual labour. Any way, I could have earned good money if I could have stood the boredom. I went into retail instead, and earned way less. 

 

Here is the thing though, back then there were various career paths, you could drop out, and get mind numbing work, and climb a career path, become a foreman or something one day. What ever happened though, you could expect to get something, and if you worked hard, then you could have a future.

 

The next level was that you went to collage, got in to a trade of some sort, and you could get REALLY good money doing that,

 

Or you could go to UNI, and get the mega doll hairs. 

 

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So any way back in 2004 ( I had been living in Slovakia for a few years by then) the country joined the EU, as did Poland, Czech republic, and Hungry, (there might have been a few more too)... 

 

Just like that hundreds of thousands of people who had just left school, or were for the most parts just starting off in life came over to the UK looking for work, and there was loads of it, and they were all happy enough to come with their friends, share houses, and look for any job they wanted. This was amazing for the people that came over, as in a year or two they could afford to build themselves a house in their own country, (something they never could have afforded to do, and they could hop back between SK and the UK... I mean I was doing the same thing in reverse. I lived in Slovakia, but ran a UK company. (I digress a bit)... Now this whole thing looked great for everyone.. All these great young people came over, with cheap labour to offer, and they got an amazing start to their lives, and the UK economy boomed because labour costs plummeted. And this is where those on the left would like the story to end, because oddly for a party in the UK that should be all about the Labourer "Labour" (The USA Equivalent are democrats), they ignore this part entirely it seems. 

 

Basically in the blink of an eye, all unskilled, semi skilled, and trade jobs fell to minimum wage. The other thing that happened was a degree was required for just about every job going.This part has been a real pain but I am trying to keep as short as I can. The effects of this are blindingly obvious to anyone in this trap, but utterly derided, and invisible to anyone else.

 

I am going to list some of the effects here, and I am NOT spouting propaganda, this is stuff I have seen with my own eyes, and thought with my own head, and as I can speak Slovak, and a bit of Czech, and Polish, and have loads of EU mates, and friends who don't have much.

 

First thing is the Youth unemployment has shot up, and it's not just the low skilled, and it's got nothing to do with "Laziness" etc. Firstly the Slavic work ethic is "Better", that's what the companies say, The truth is that EU workers are ignorant, and assume that the rules here are the same as in their home country. Many factories, and places that need unskilled work only hire people from one country or another, so that the workforce is streamlined, many factories are known as the "Polish Factory", etc, not as an insult, but because of the nationality of all its workers. This is great for the workers, as they don't have to learn much English, and really good for the Factory, as it has a coherent, hardworking workforce, with loads of people just waiting to come and fill a job. If someone leaves, the next day they tell the Polish agency to send someone, and they fly over to accommodation, and they are ready to work. There is a farm near me that built a small village to home fruit pickers, they don't need to, and many don't bother leaving. It's not like the prison camp you might be envisioning, It's quite nice, but they are charged rent, and they mostly buy from the shop they own, and the pub they have. The amazing thing is that this is not confined to one city, or one area, this whole way of doing things is all over the country. I live in a tiny town, and there isn't one large firm round here that would employ UK workers. 

 

The problem with this is that the money that is earned is saved up to spend when the people return home. It has become something of a tradition now that Europeans leave school to come and work for 5 to 10 years, then return and start their own little businesses, and the countries they are returning to are booming with EU investment, and the influx of spending money. But for the UK it has meant that the only jobs that are not minimum wage are ones that require a degree, and companies can be picky, because of cause, many of those emigrating have got first class educations., and once they learn English they can compete on an even field, well semi even, as the less workers of what ever skill, are prepared to take, is the price that whole area will get paid.

 

All this in turn has meant that for people born in the UK, and with no where to go to where they can get the huge value for their money, they are at a huge disadvantage.Just saying "You should do better when you at school" is NOT an answer. All school, and Uni does, is rate the individual's scholastic abilities in comparison with their peers. Exams are marked not out of how many questions you get right, but on a scale compared to others, and they are getting increasingly easier too, meaning those OVER 35 are now at a disadvantage on the job market, if just once school results have been taken in to account. 

 

Anyone who is now not getting the best grades from the best universities, are in a hugely artificially overly competitive market place, where graduates with decent grades are earning the same money TODAY that (adjusted for inflation) a mid level store assistant could expect 20 years ago). This is then compounded by the fact that these people are now saddled with HUGE student debt, and just to add salt, and piss on the wound all the affordable housing is taken, and all the services that they rely on are stretched to the breaking point because of the swelling of the population.

 

And I haven't even got started on those who used to 50 years ago have respectable jobs, and carer paths because they took an apprenticeship, or a collage course. There used to be good money in things like plumbing, construction, bricklaying etc, etc. Not only are the only jobs about all on minimum wage, there is no progression, there is no security, or any hope of promotion, as middle management etc, are required to have degrees, and those coming to the UK from outside the UK got their degrees for free. 

 

These are the conditions that breed poverty, drug use, and crime. So as I said before the services like doctors, and mental health services, prisons, and everything else are being stretched to their limits. These aren't things that you just read about, people see it, and all the time.

 

In the long term for both countries things are bad. Now in Slovakia it's about impossible to get on if you have not gone abroad to work, things have adjusted in price to matched the increased incomes, also things like the countries investment in education is being wasted, doctors, nurses, and loads of other jobs that need people with qualifications, are just going to stack boxes, etc. It's a broken system where again the wealthy cash in, but those at the bottom of the food chain are loosing out.

 

The country has to pay for the benefits of all the people who are out of work because a job for them at a living wage is not possible, and while those that have the work are paying towards it, it is generally very little because of the way the tax system is setup. This means there is more people on benefits, and those who are there are paid so little, and every couple of years there are cuts. Disabled people are the hardest hit because the systems that used to support them have been privatised which just means more companies taking a cut or a budget, and the jobs pay minimum wage, and you guessed it, that's another place where migrant workers have taken over,  (Another thing I KNOW for a fact, as I have used care services, and I have 3 friends 2 of whom are Slovak).

 

Where things get infuriating is that the liberal view point now seems so set up on things like race, gender and other things, and all at the expense of actual people who the system as a whole has set up to loose.The whole ;Gender pay gap' thing only applies to jobs where people negotiate their own wages, it has nothing to do with work where the pay is fixed, and advertised. IE most of us The idea it's for the "Exact same job" ONLY applies if people are in a position to negotiate.

 

The next thing that makes me scream is the fact that most of the power behind these movements is coming from Universities, and the like, places where no one has yet been in a job, or where people have to finance themselves. These are those with a great future ahead of them, and no real prospect they will be flipping burgers for ever.

 

The issue where real discrimination exists is in the areas of poverty, or in those who are just not "Skilled". Or have not done the best at school.  Or disabled, or those with real issues, These are the people who can do the least to change their circumstance, and their position has been made substantially worse by immigration.

 

All of this and more has just been distilled down to "I'ts all the problem of immigrants", and in return "YOUR RACIST"!

 

Now I know someone will tell me I am shit for writing such a long post, but the length is THE POINT. The issue is way more complicated than anyone seems to want to talk about, and unfortunately, there isn't a word like "RACIST" that can be used as a way to shame people who don't understand ONE of the really difficult issues out there. "BUILD A WALL" might be it??? I don't know.

 

I am baffled by the fact that even in the UK people accuse those who wan't to have controls put in place, being accused of being "Racist", They are the same race as us. Nationalist may be, but nationalist no. I don't care what anyone looks like, or even if they don't speak English, I really don't care. I really think that what happened in the UK should be a lesson for us all, and it REALLY should be a lesson right now, but the debated can't be held, because the only thing that happens is someone insists "your"racist",, 

 

And all this is just about one political point, one area of political difference, and one still can't have a sensible debate about it with a goal of finding a solution that could work. 

 

The funny thing is that on the issue of global warming it's the other way round. The right just says "It's just not real", and that's it, where as most of the left seems to know at least a few parts of the science. 

 

That's it.. I've finally shut up. I am and will be more than happy to discuss stuff I have written here, but please don't just pull out one sentence and disagree with one premise. My point is "It's complicated, and the issues are many", What we need more than anything is people to actually accept that there is more to this than "Orange Man Bad". 

 

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"The left" is not losing. First of all there is no such thing as "The left" as some monolithic entity distinct from other viewpoints. Second, the recent mid-term elections in the US saw many people who are more on the left side of the political spectrum win, and saw the Democrats retake control of the House of Representatives and generally Democrats are to the left of Republicans. Third, if you look at public opinion in the US you will find that the majority of Americans favor many "leftist" ideas/ideals, and indeed vote for Democrats in greater numbers than for Republicans. If it weren't for blatant gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the nature of the American electoral system and the structure of the government, there would be a much different balance of power. It means that as it currently stands the Democrats have to work harder in more places. With all of the built-in disadvantages the fact that the Democrats won so many House seats (as well as many other offices) hardly qualifies as losing. If that's losing, I will hope for more of the same!

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What is the point in saying that "there is no such thing as the "Left", only to then go on to use the word in the same way I did? I know there is no monolith, My political views on many things would be seen as on the "left" the good old political compass has me here: 

 

TEoNzuy.png

Yet in some circles I am viewed as being some how supporting the right, or because I don't condemn Trump, or because I want to listen to what people from apposing positions think. 

 

33 minutes ago, daveb said:

If it weren't for blatant gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the nature of the American electoral system and the structure of the government, there would be a much different balance of power.

So when the person you support gets in, it's all "By the book"?

 

If you are for changing the way the political process is conducted, then I am interested, interested indeed. I think the whole thing is bonkers. How politics in general is conducted is something many people would like to see changed, the problem is that those who control how it is conducted, like so many other decisions isn't conducted in public much. Didn't the Clinton campaign out spend Mr Orange? 

 

I wish your candidate the best of luck.

 

I really don't actually see there is much of anything actually happening in American politics right now, it's a show all about the show at the moment, there hasn't really been much in the way of actual policy, brought in to effect, it's all about "Oh SHOCK HORROR the Orange mad said a silly thing", but that is about all.

 

The thing with this wall. I am a bit take back as to why it's not being built. Could they not find the money? I thought that he shot himself in the foot when he said "Mexico will pay for it". What is the issue with not allowing people to do something illegal? 

 

Is the argument that "Anyone at all can come and work, live, and reap the benefits of America"? That would be funny, Russia could just move there, and vote for Vladko. Be a laugh. Should you turn the wall into a game show? Those who manage to sneak in for 10 years and not get caught get a green card?

 

There was a protest outside the Oxford University Student Union today. That's Oxford GREAT Briton (sorry I have to tease a bit, I hope one day someone might laugh back), They were chanting " 'No Trump, no KKK, no fascist USA! " Yeah the speaker was American, but I was just thinking "Dude!!! No one here can vote in an American election, who they trying to influence?

 

 

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