Asexual Women Musings

[Snao Cone]

Brief little rant:

Yesterday I was at a seminar where a number of people from different organizations came to learn about trans inclusion and gender diversity awareness. The first exercise was for participants (all cis) to think of three gendered things they did in the morning. One that was brought up by women in the room was "put on a bra". An older woman went on a bit of a rant about how her wave of feminism fought against the need to wear a bra and it makes her sad to see women adopting that practice again. She has no idea how physically uncomfortable it is for me to move around without proper jug containment, but assumes because I practice what she rebelled against that I must not believe in the principles behind what she fought for.

I can imagine her giving the same kind of reaction to asexuality. The sexual revolution was decades ago! They fought for my right to free love! But look, my (a)sexual identity and decisions are neither prudish morality nor ceding bodily autonomy to the patriarchy. My own personal decisions matter more than a 60 year old stranger's ideology.

[butterflydreams]

She has no idea how physically uncomfortable it is for me to move around without proper jug containment, but assumes because I practice what she rebelled against that I must not believe in the principles behind what she fought for.

HA! I lol'd :lol:

People like this weird me out. It's like, ok, you fought for "freedom" and now people are exercising their freedom, that's a win...but it's not the same kind of freedom you had in mind...so it's...bad? I don't know if that's short-sighted or authoritarian or what. It's kind of like if you fight for freedom of speech, you necessarily are fighting for the right for people to say crazy shit. You might not personally like what they have to say, but it's kind of a package deal.

Then on a related note: I actually felt bad about this exact thing when I started to wear a bra :( I thought about exactly what that older woman was getting at in her rant. It didn't matter that it was serving a real, valuable, needed purpose (not in size, but in the sudden sandpaper-like quality of my shirts). Not to mention how much it mentally helped me to get to, "omg, this is really happening! You're really becoming your true self!" It's all very weird. Because I was raised with those kinds of messages about women presented very clearly. It's why I still feel bad just wearing what I want to, and I hate it. Dammit, I like skirts. And I like the kind of general outfit I wear. By wearing what I do, I'm not saying all women have to wear that stuff. I'm only saying that this woman does. Isn't that ok?

[Snao Cone]

Yeah, it's a choice and what's important is that girls and women know they have a choice, and they can make that decision based on their physical and mental comfort. I had to grow a lot as a person before I started dressing as feminine as I do today, so it's not like I haven't thought through this critically already.

[m4rble]

Brief little rant:

Yesterday I was at a seminar where a number of people from different organizations came to learn about trans inclusion and gender diversity awareness. The first exercise was for participants (all cis) to think of three gendered things they did in the morning. One that was brought up by women in the room was "put on a bra". An older woman went on a bit of a rant about how her wave of feminism fought against the need to wear a bra and it makes her sad to see women adopting that practice again. She has no idea how physically uncomfortable it is for me to move around without proper jug containment, but assumes because I practice what she rebelled against that I must not believe in the principles behind what she fought for.

I can imagine her giving the same kind of reaction to asexuality. The sexual revolution was decades ago! They fought for my right to free love! But look, my (a)sexual identity and decisions are neither prudish morality nor ceding bodily autonomy to the patriarchy. My own personal decisions matter more than a 60 year old stranger's ideology.

I don't like wearing bras. Honestly, I can't think of any gendered things I do in the morning. I brush my hair, but that isn't really a gendered thing.

[butterflydreams]

So, Snow Cone got me in a ranting mood.

At the end of the day, I actually don't care if you're transphobic. As long as you're not hurting me or anyone else, you can think whatever you want, and be as hateful as you want, but for the love of god, at least own it.

I was listening to something about "would you date a trans person, specifically a trans woman"...yeah, you probably already know where this is going. If you're answer to that is "no", great! I have no problem with that. Just say "no, I don't think I would" and we can both go about our lives. That's not transphobic. I might think that you're missing out on some fantastic, loving and super nice women, but that's your prerogative.

But when you try to justify it, it gets gross. "Oh, I want to be with a woman who I can have my own children with." Ok, but what if you're with a cis woman who can't have children for some reason? "Oh, I'd still stay with her." Wtf? Maybe I'm missing something in heterosexual relationships...but do people really go around asking "so can you/would you have kids?" It's rude. And pardon me if I'm a little skeptical that you ask every woman you date if she's fertile. Oh but when it's a trans woman, you suddenly care?

Just own it, dude. I don't care. You're saving me the trouble of dating you. Don't be insulting about it to cover your ass.

God I feel so hopeless about ever finding anyone who's interested in me. I'm not even that attractive :(

[glitter_and_gold]

For me, it's probably a lot of the same as what everyone else has been told. Since I haven't really ever been in a relationship, I've heard things like, "you just haven't met the right person yet" (which I know is said meaning well, so while annoying, it doesn't bother me as much) or "you're just scared" (which actually DOES aggravate me a lot). At this point, I haven't really "come out" to anyone. I tried discussing it with my parents, but they fell into the, "you just haven't met the right person yet" camp. Which I get, if people are happy in love, they want everyone they care about to have the same. I know they didn't mean to disregard me or what I'm feeling (or not feeling), it's just heterosexuality is kind of the "default" in society and everything else is considered to be strange and rare (I know this is improving and I know not everyone thinks this way, I'm just generalizing society). For me personally, I feel conflicted as an asexual and romantic. I rarely act on my romantic feelings, because I know that most people are in fact sexual and while I know some asexuals are able to find compromise in relationships with sexuals and make them work, I just cannot see myself compromising when it comes to my asexuality. I think this is also part of why I don't come out to people, because they're likely to say something like, "but you had a crush on that guy" or "you dated that other guy for like a month". It's very difficult to put into words when your sexuality and romantic attraction are different. It's even difficult for me to grasp at times. Because if I have feelings for someone, I'll want to spend time with them, and cuddle, and walk through parks and all the lovey-dovey stuff, but I don't really have a desire to kiss them or participate in any other sensual activity. When society always shows the two intertwined, it can be hard to understand if what you're feeling is actually romantic attraction since you don't desire any physical parts of the relationship. I finally came to terms with it very recently, but it's still something I'm struggling with. Overall, I think there is an idea that everyone wants sex, everyone is supposed to want sex, and if you don't want sex, there's something wrong with you. It can be disheartening, but I've come to look at it like this: there are things in life that are far more important to me than sex (sex being of no importance at all), so I'm choosing to focus on those things and enjoy life.

[Snao Cone]

So, Snow Cone got me in a ranting mood.

Sorry :P

At the end of the day, I actually don't care if you're transphobic. As long as you're not hurting me or anyone else, you can think whatever you want, and be as hateful as you want, but for the love of god, at least own it.

I was listening to something about "would you date a trans person, specifically a trans woman"...yeah, you probably already know where this is going. If you're answer to that is "no", great! I have no problem with that. Just say "no, I don't think I would" and we can both go about our lives. That's not transphobic. I might think that you're missing out on some fantastic, loving and super nice women, but that's your prerogative.

But when you try to justify it, it gets gross. "Oh, I want to be with a woman who I can have my own children with." Ok, but what if you're with a cis woman who can't have children for some reason? "Oh, I'd still stay with her." Wtf? Maybe I'm missing something in heterosexual relationships...but do people really go around asking "so can you/would you have kids?" It's rude. And pardon me if I'm a little skeptical that you ask every woman you date if she's fertile. Oh but when it's a trans woman, you suddenly care?

Just own it, dude. I don't care. You're saving me the trouble of dating you. Don't be insulting about it to cover your ass.

I've heard this from several trans folks. People don't need to give explanations for why they aren't into somebody, even if they have them. People can just choose their partners and move on. You know those sappy things couples say at their weddings on what about their spouse made them fall in love? Saying "I don't feel that magic" is enough to not continue a relationship. If people want to add anything about any other factor, they're trying to get you to listen to and validate their opinion on you and what you are and what kind of love you're entitled to. This happens to larger people as well, and I'd imagine also people with disabilities.

God I feel so hopeless about ever finding anyone who's interested in me. I'm not even that attractive :(

This is all just not true. When I entered my 30s I started to face a rebirth of sorts. Part of it was the life events happening to me, but part of it was just a perspective shift. I started treating clothing as something for me to have fun with instead of rules for me to follow, to dress like I wanted to instead of based on whether I'd be overstepping the bounds of what other people think of me. I started being much more honest with myself, by vocalizing my flaws and negative thoughts instead of bottling them up. I started taking responsibility for my own misery, which empowered me to apply my own solutions instead of assuming I'm stuck with all of the disadvantages I have. I hope that you go through something similar.

[butterflydreams]

I've heard this from several trans folks. People don't need to give explanations for why they aren't into somebody, even if they have them. People can just choose their partners and move on. You know those sappy things couples say at their weddings on what about their spouse made them fall in love? Saying "I don't feel that magic" is enough to not continue a relationship. If people want to add anything about any other factor, they're trying to get you to listen to and validate their opinion on you and what you are and what kind of love you're entitled to. This happens to larger people as well, and I'd imagine also people with disabilities.

Exactly. I think a lot of it is posturing too. And that could be for anyone, not just a trans woman. "Oh geez, I better really lay it on here so that everyone knows I'd never go out with ______." I've seen so many people add on, "I just don't want to be with anyone who used to have a penis/used to be a man." Totally unnecessary. And I'm sure it's similar for all kinds of people. I think I actually read an article about disabled people dating once, and it was pretty much the same thing as trans women.

God I feel so hopeless about ever finding anyone who's interested in me. I'm not even that attractive :(

This is all just not true. When I entered my 30s I started to face a rebirth of sorts. Part of it was the life events happening to me, but part of it was just a perspective shift. I started treating clothing as something for me to have fun with instead of rules for me to follow, to dress like I wanted to instead of based on whether I'd be overstepping the bounds of what other people think of me. I started being much more honest with myself, by vocalizing my flaws and negative thoughts instead of bottling them up. I started taking responsibility for my own misery, which empowered me to apply my own solutions instead of assuming I'm stuck with all of the disadvantages I have. I hope that you go through something similar.

Hehe, well, I guess I am having a bit of a rebirth myself. I agree too that it's good to be honest. It's really hard to do that. In my head, I feel like I've been saying certain things for years, but actually I've never vocalized them because I was too scared. I've found that I do feel better admitting those things aloud. I guess it's the difference of suffering in silence. You don't have to. I don't necessarily notice it myself, but my friend said he was amazed at how natural I seem now, and how my eyes don't look dead anymore.

Plus I think it's great that I'm uncoupling from my parents. I did exactly what they wanted to, right down to my career and how I dressed. It's scary that they're unaccepting, but it feels good to assert myself as myself, rather than as my parents' child. I can't believe it took me 26 years to get there.

[Aloki24601]

Wow Hadley... People feel like you are invading? If anything I'd feel like you have expert insider advice....not as having been a man, but in role-playing and being around boys/men you would have different insight than I do as a cis woman. You have a really unique and therefore precious perspective. Your road has also been lonely at times so I hope that aven can help change that for you. I for one am really excited for you to be a part of such conversations!!

Hehe, ooo, pressure's on! ;)

I think my hesitations come from growing up in a pretty TERFy area. They're the kinds of people who would say I was invading, and that was something I learned was "a thing" pretty early on in my life. (It was the late 90s, I dunno I feel like that kind of attitude isn't as prevalent anymore, as this thread demonstrates.)

One of the biggest things that affected me was losing my earliest friends as I grew up. It's ok for little girls and boys to be friends, but it becomes uncool surprisingly early on. I don't know if it's something kids themselves feel, or imitating grownups, or what. I remember going to a friend's birthday party when I was 5 or 6. My mom thought it was weird (why was her "son" invited to this birthday party with all these girls?) but she didn't really have a problem with it. Unfortunately, I didn't understand at that age that the other girls saw me differently. I got locked in a closet (by myself) by a few girls at that party :( That kind of thing happened a lot when I was little. Eventually no girls wanted to be with me anymore, and I started trying to make friends with boys. I got into a few not good situations, especially with older neighborhood boys. But it was really hard to be friends with other boys and I tended to latch on to one at a time. I was never part of a group of boys. It made me a very easy target for bullying.

I guess no one can control what little kids do, but hey, maybe if you have kids one day, and they make friends with a slightly off little "boy", just keep things in mind :)

So, sadly, I don't really have much insight about men. I could never really get myself into their groups, even though I tried. I will say though, that living in the men's wing of the dorm when I was in college my freshman year was one of the worst experiences of my life.

As for women "owing" men sex. I have often felt it is presented as an act that women do for men and if the women are lucky the man will be nice and "pleasure" her too.... But even a strong cuddle session would not be welcome by someone who just insulted me, I don't get it. :( I wish there were more depictions of women being independent and rejecting the disrespectful guy, and more men being solid human beings and that being attractive to women. :-/

I've tended to keep really high quality guys in my inner circle in life. Couldn't really afford to do any less. And I've found that I don't tend to have the same negative impression about guys broadly that some of my friends do. That's not to say that I haven't known shitty guys (see my aforementioned freshman year in college...or even just all of college...so gross :() but I always try to come back to the guys I know who are awesome. My brother. My oldest friend (been friends almost 15 years now). My best friend's fiancé. All really good guys, and I love them all so much. I'd defend any of them with everything I've got. They help me focus on the good.

An insight I can ad about the women "owing" men sex thing is there is a pretty nasty flip side to that coin. I was never in a relationship (or anything even approaching one) as a guy. But I can say that the amount of pressure that you "had to do it" when the time came. You "had to have sex" because "it's awesome". And the nastiest part, guys aren't allowed to say 'no' at any time. At least, I was never told that, and it scared the crap out of me.

TMI for sex discussion

I was so scared for years that I was going to have to let a woman perform oral sex on me. Or worse, that I'd be with a woman and she'd do it and wouldn't stop if I asked. What if no one cared? They'd probably say, "ahh, who cares, you lucky bastard." Everyone I knew talked about it like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I wanted to tell someone I could trust that if they ever found out someone did that to me to call the police immediately. But who would be willing to do that? I dunno what it was, partly not wanting to be touched down there at all, and especially in that way. Regardless, it was very scary. I don't if that's all the dysphoria talking or what, but it's a huge part of how sex was framed in my mind. Not good at all.

Thanks for commenting on some of the things I mentioned! I'm sorry it took me so long to reply -

I really never thought about men being taught that saying no to sexual acts, etc was in a sense taught to be wrong and taboo --- although, that makes sense. I do think it is sad that our society doesn't leave much room for not being in the mood. :(

I can imagine it must have been all kinds of confusing and hurtful growing up as you did -- not fully understanding yourself and so not fully understanding the interactions of others with you --- and having little to no guidance in all that you were experiencing internally. I'm glad you have made it out and that you have a great inner circle of friends and I hope that your experience on these boards has been very welcoming :)

Thanks again for your insight! Very much appreciated!!! :-D

[butterflydreams]

Thanks again for your insight! Very much appreciated!!! :-D

You're very welcome!

Question for people here, I've begun to realize I have some major, major self-esteem issues, and I don't think I'm the only one in this. Has anyone here ever had problems with low self-esteem? What did you do to help it? I'd be especially interested if you have any thoughts on how asexuality might play into it.

[Starlit Sky]

Question for people here, I've begun to realize I have some major, major self-esteem issues, and I don't think I'm the only one in this. Has anyone here ever had problems with low self-esteem? What did you do to help it? I'd be especially interested if you have any thoughts on how asexuality might play into it.

Major self-esteem issues, huh? Those are really, really hard to break. I think probably everyone knows what self-esteem issues are like and so almost everyone can relate to you on some level, but there really is a difference between someone who says that they have self-esteem issues and someone who says that they have major self-esteem issues. You know? I mean, if someone feels the need to put in "major" in front of that, that's going to be an important distinction. To me, it means that overcoming those are going to take effort on your part . . . and I know how much effort it can take. Believe me, I do.

I could actually probably go on and on and on and on about gaining self-respect, self-love, and all that good stuff . . . but I don't know how comfortable you would actually be if I did that, so I'm just going to stick with some basic stuff! ^_^

1) Use a lot of positive talk for yourself. Anytime you feel like you're going in the "I suck" / "I'm useless" / I'm not pretty" train of thought(s), do your best to stop yourself. This one is probably the biggest piece of advice I can give you, because it's so incredibly important. If you find yourself thinking about how much you suck, make yourself remember something that you've done that proves that, in fact, you don't suck (even just saying something nice on AVEN is totally valid!). If you think that you're somehow useless, try to remember that you definitely aren't. You just aren't. I can't say that enough. There's no way you could be useless. If you're thinking about how you're not pretty then recognize that beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen a picture of you before, and yes, you definitely are beautiful (and by the way, if much of your self-esteem is tied into any problems you have of feeling beautiful, then I've got more advice geared towards that, too).

2) Write down at least one good thing that you do each day, and if you've pretty much been a hermit then you can think back to something you've done before that you're proud of. That counts too! It helps so much! When you're actually noting things you've done that you're proud of, it makes it that much easier for you to be happier with who you are. Also, with the same thing in mind . . .

3) Keep track of every compliment someone gives you. I'm serious. It is SO easy to think about all the negative stuff that people tell us, and we make it even easier when we don't pay as much attention as we should to stuff. I started doing that this year, and I'm surprised at how long my list has gotten . . . and I'm also surprised at how much it works (and it definitely hurt me when I stopped, too)! You can write it down, record it, or whatever works best for you.

. . . and read this!

Like I said, if you need any more advice (or if you want more links) then I can give some to you. If any of this has weirded you out, I can shut up, too haha :P

[butterflydreams]

Oh, wow, all good tips! Number 3 is especially important I think. I actually started doing that a month or so ago. It's weird how a depressed/low self-esteem brain can convince you that, "no one has any positive thoughts about you." But then if you start writing them down, you see how many there actually are.

I suppose people can have self-esteem issues for any number of reasons. For me though, it's definitely tied to feeling ugly and feeling like if no one has ever wanted to date me, there must be something seriously wrong with me. I've known lots of pretty flawed people over the years...basically because I know people...everybody has some flaws. But without fail, all of them found a partner at some point. Many of them are even married at this point. Rationally, I understand that I can't work myself into that corner. The corner of "unless someone wants you to be their partner, you are worthless". But it's awfully easy to fall down that slope.

Recently, I've been kind of wondering if really sitting with yourself, by yourself, and working on genuinely building yourself up from the inside is something some people need to do. Because if you can learn to do that, you're basically set. No external factors can come in and remove your ability to do that. Though I'm not quite sure how hard it will be, or how exactly to do it.

[Starlit Sky]

I'm honestly very glad that you've already been taking count of the wonderful things that people say about you! I think that that is a really excellent step in the right direction and I wish that everyone did that more often because everyone deserves to know how awesome they are! ^_^ (unless they really do suck, which is a totally different story)

I can certainly understand what you mean, though, because for a long time no one wanted to date me either. I think I sort of just . . . changed. I started expressing myself better, and I was loving myself a lot more, and I was loving other people more, and then things around me changed. Both online and off, people wanted to be with me more, in a more romantic way. . . . So I believe your own self-image has a lot to do with it, as that ties into the way you carry yourself, what you believe about yourself, and so on and so forth.

I've never joined a dating site, so I don't know what they're really like, but if you're ever bored and / or curious Interpals might be a place to check out. Using that site as a dating field is an option, but a lot of other people use it for friendship, language exchange, and culture exchange more than anything else. I joined a little over a year ago thinking it was just a way to pass the time, and then I fell in love with a guy from there, met another person I can talk to about anything and they'll understand (so it's a very wonderful friendship!), met another asexual who is probably my best gal pal . . . so it's definitely been worth it, for me personally. It has its drawbacks (the only options for your gender are "male" and "female"--which, you're a girl anyway. I just mean that it's annoying because not everyone is male or female), and most of them are because of the people there (some guys are just there because they want to have sex with you and / or talk dirty to you, but you can block those people and you can also ask certain questions in your profile that way you can weed out the people who don't read it to begin with), but all girls get flirty / romantic messages that aren't necessarily sexual . . . and I'm telling you this because there have definitely been people who have gone there who used it as another way to gain self-confidence. If you don't want to join or just think an idea of a website like that is bat-shit crazy, don't worry, you're not the only one and I can't blame you! XD

Recently, I've been kind of wondering if really sitting with yourself, by yourself, and working on genuinely building yourself up from the inside is something some people need to do. Because if you can learn to do that, you're basically set. No external factors can come in and remove your ability to do that. Though I'm not quite sure how hard it will be, or how exactly to do it.

I think that that would be a wonderful idea to do--but, like you, I'm not entirely sure how one can go about doing that. . . . Well actually, I think just sitting down and thinking about how wonderful and beautiful you are would do you a lot of good. Perhaps you could set apart thirty minutes of the day, or an hour, or two, or just fifteen minutes (though I would probably say you need at least fifteen minutes, since you say that your self-esteem issues are particularly big). You might write down more lists about what makes you excellent, if you find that doing that is particularly helpful, or you could just sit and meditate on it. It might also be the time to re-read some of the compliments people give you as well. Maybe you could keep a journal and write about all that is good about you (if lists aren't quite your thing).

Oh! By the way, every time you pass by a mirror or see your reflection, tell yourself that you're beautiful. Out loud, if you can. It might seem weird or awkward or like a lie at first, but trust me, that helps SO MUCH, it's almost crazy, and eventually it doesn't seem like a strange thing to do at all. You begin to believe it--and you should! And if you haven't already, read these tips. They're all very good and I know other people who have benefited a lot from doing them! ^_^

[Snao Cone]

I have a love-hate relationship with mirrors. From the right angle I can look amazing, but when I capture myself in a much more real-life pose I don't like it at all. I know the things I hate about my appearance don't occur to other people, like if they were to describe me they wouldn't say I have no jawline or a very uneven complexion. But I try to save myself as much as possible by replacing whatever unflattering reflection I see with something more composed. It might seem like I'm faking it, but I do genuinely think that the composite picture people keep of me in their heads is among the more flattering ones I can pull off.

[Starlit Sky]

You know, I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing . . . or . . . I don't think it's a bad thing to admire yourself, or take pictures of yourself, from certain angles. There are definitely ways to love the things that we aren't so keen on ourselves (my eyelids aren't totally symmetrical and it drives me crazy if I think about it), and that can take awhile--in fact, it can even be a lifelong journey. I don't really think it's possible for someone to never, ever, ever have a bad image day, even after they reach the point where they love how they look.

But it's not necessarily an easy thing to accomplish. :/ A lot harder to talk about than to actually practice.

[butterflydreams]

You know it's weird, I actually do better with mirrors than with photos. I don't know what it is, but way more than not, I think I look ok in the mirror. But photos...I always feel so terrible.

Mostly I'm trying to primarily believe that I'm passing now. If I believe that in my head, my self confidence and self esteem goes way up. But it's hard to believe. When it comes to yourself, it's so hard to believe how different you actually look. Apparently I look very different, but it's hard for me to see. I've focused on every male bit for so long.

[Philip027]

But when you try to justify it, it gets gross. "Oh, I want to be with a woman who I can have my own children with." Ok, but what if you're with a cis woman who can't have children for some reason? "Oh, I'd still stay with her."

Yeah, that would be hypocritical and I'd totally call it out too, but don't forget that there actually are people who would decline a relationship with such a partner for that reason too, even if there is no trans-ness involved. Seen it happen plenty of times.

It's usually a very sad sort of situation too, because usually the person really does love the other, but there's just this one irreconcilable dealbreaker muddling things up. It's usually a very sad, reluctant sort of breakup that ensues.

[Starlit Sky]

If I seen you in real life as the picture you used on here before, I would never have guessed that you weren't born with girl parts . . . so you're definitely passing. I guess the "solution" to that would be to try to focus a lot more on all of the things that physically make you look like a girl. You could even get some of your friends to help you on that if you wanted to. Of course, I know that changing mindsets like that is a lot easier said than done.

About the mirror thing--I mean, I can relate. I was like that for foreeever. Now I think I've just found better ways to take pictures of myself and stuff . . . but anyway. . . . When you're looking at yourself in a mirror, do you always look from one angle? And when you're taking pictures of yourself and / or looking at other people's pictures, are they from different angles than what you look at yourself in your mirror? (Does this wording even make sense?)

But when you try to justify it, it gets gross. "Oh, I want to be with a woman who I can have my own children with." Ok, but what if you're with a cis woman who can't have children for some reason? "Oh, I'd still stay with her."

Yeah, that would be hypocritical and I'd totally call it out too, but don't forget that there actually are people who would decline a relationship with such a partner for that reason too, even if there is no trans-ness involved. Seen it happen plenty of times.

It's usually a very sad sort of situation too, because usually the person really does love the other, but there's just this one irreconcilable dealbreaker muddling things up. It's usually a very sad, reluctant sort of breakup that ensues.

I believe she was talking more about the hypocrites themselves, not so much the people who will leave if you're infertile. ^_^

[butterflydreams]

Yeah, that would be hypocritical and I'd totally call it out too, but don't forget that there actually are people who would decline a relationship with such a partner for that reason too, even if there is no trans-ness involved. Seen it happen plenty of times.

It's usually a very sad sort of situation too, because usually the person really does love the other, but there's just this one irreconcilable dealbreaker muddling things up. It's usually a very sad, reluctant sort of breakup that ensues.

Oh of course. I totally understand if procreating is important to you...absolutely, that's a deal breaker, and I'm sure it sucks like hell. I just frequently see the hypocritical side of it when it comes to trans women. People tend to use it as a "get out of jail free" card to excuse their transphobia. And I don't even care if that's how you feel. If you just hate trans people, just say that. Don't rationalize it.

If I seen you in real life as the picture you used on here before, I would never have guessed that you weren't born with girl parts . . . so you're definitely passing. I guess the "solution" to that would be to try to focus a lot more on all of the things that physically make you look like a girl. You could even get some of your friends to help you on that if you wanted to. Of course, I know that changing mindsets like that is a lot easier said than done.

Aww, thank you. I think I remember that picture, it was from a while ago too. Hopefully I look even better now. I don't know that friends would even want to help. Usually when I ask their opinion I get some variation of "hate to break it to you, but you just look like a lady." So it's my internal mindset that needs to change, and I think it will, but it takes time.

About the mirror thing--I mean, I can relate. I was like that for foreeever. Now I think I've just found better ways to take pictures of myself and stuff . . . but anyway. . . . When you're looking at yourself in a mirror, do you always look from one angle? And when you're taking pictures of yourself and / or looking at other people's pictures, are they from different angles than what you look at yourself in your mirror? (Does this wording even make sense?)

I've tried just taking lots of photos. I think that helps because odds are better that at least one of them will come out good. Good angle, good light, good smile, whatever. I think we're all just very visually driven and hyper-critical of ourselves. I mean, I genuinely think most people look pretty great, and I'd tell them so if they asked, but I'm much more reluctant to pay myself the same compliment.

[Snao Cone]

One thing about taking photos is if you have the self-portrait camera in mirror mode but the photos are recorded the way other people see you, you get very different images. That can make me feel more self-conscious, as I find that I look better in my mirror image. I still keep 90% of my selfies in the regular orientation, though, to try to balance my own self-perception with what others might see. (Yes, I put way more thought into the philosophical implications of selfies than most people. :P)

[butterflydreams]

One thing about taking photos is if you have the self-portrait camera in mirror mode but the photos are recorded the way other people see you, you get very different images. That can make me feel more self-conscious, as I find that I look better in my mirror image. I still keep 90% of my selfies in the regular orientation, though, to try to balance my own self-perception with what others might see. (Yes, I put way more thought into the philosophical implications of selfies than most people. :P)

This exactly. When I see pictures of myself that are flipped the right way (i.e. not how I see myself in the mirror) I definitely freak out. That's how people see me?! What?!

[m4rble]

One thing about taking photos is if you have the self-portrait camera in mirror mode but the photos are recorded the way other people see you, you get very different images. That can make me feel more self-conscious, as I find that I look better in my mirror image. I still keep 90% of my selfies in the regular orientation, though, to try to balance my own self-perception with what others might see. (Yes, I put way more thought into the philosophical implications of selfies than most people. :P)

This exactly. When I see pictures of myself that are flipped the right way (i.e. not how I see myself in the mirror) I definitely freak out. That's how people see me?! What?!

People tend to prefer their mirror image because they're used to it. It's called the mere exposure effect(or in this case mirror exposure effect, teehee). People who know you in real life are more likely to prefer the non-flipped version for the same reason.

[m4rble]

Yeah, that would be hypocritical and I'd totally call it out too, but don't forget that there actually are people who would decline a relationship with such a partner for that reason too, even if there is no trans-ness involved. Seen it happen plenty of times.

It's usually a very sad sort of situation too, because usually the person really does love the other, but there's just this one irreconcilable dealbreaker muddling things up. It's usually a very sad, reluctant sort of breakup that ensues.

Oh of course. I totally understand if procreating is important to you...absolutely, that's a deal breaker, and I'm sure it sucks like hell. I just frequently see the hypocritical side of it when it comes to trans women. People tend to use it as a "get out of jail free" card to excuse their transphobia. And I don't even care if that's how you feel. If you just hate trans people, just say that. Don't rationalize it.

Yeah, when people say they don't want to date trans people I think what they really mean most of the time is they don't want to have sex with a certain type of genital.(I don't personally understand that one, but I don't feel I have enough knowledge to dismiss it) Of course, this ignores post-surgery trans people. Due to all the variation, there is no legitimate excuse to avoid dating all trans people.

[Ruru+Saphhy=Garnet]

Venting time!!!!

Glad I found this thread. It just annoys the living hell out of me when people try and convince me that I will desire to date and marry someone. It's so damn annoying. When I tell them I'm not into romance and dating like that, they simply think I'm lying and I'm not. Being in an hypersexual society, if you are not only on the asexual spectrum but also on the aromatic spectrum like myself, may God help you because people will not leave you the hell alone (at least in my case).

It's like if you're not into sex and romance, there's SOMETHING wrong with you in society's eyes and it's just plain annoying as hell.I bet it's even worse for those who are 100% aromantic. I say this because people get on my nerves when I state I don't care if I ever date or not, I'm fine either way. But if some one who is aromantic states they want 0% romance, I bet anyone, whatever crap I get from others, an aromantic person will get even worse (I am not claiming all people on the ace or aromantic spectrum have the same experiences in society,by the way)

[Snao Cone]

One thing about taking photos is if you have the self-portrait camera in mirror mode but the photos are recorded the way other people see you, you get very different images. That can make me feel more self-conscious, as I find that I look better in my mirror image. I still keep 90% of my selfies in the regular orientation, though, to try to balance my own self-perception with what others might see. (Yes, I put way more thought into the philosophical implications of selfies than most people. :P)

This exactly. When I see pictures of myself that are flipped the right way (i.e. not how I see myself in the mirror) I definitely freak out. That's how people see me?! What?!

People tend to prefer their mirror image because they're used to it. It's called the mere exposure effect(or in this case mirror exposure effect, teehee). People who know you in real life are more likely to prefer the non-flipped version for the same reason.

Yeah, I figure I groom myself to meet what I see in the mirror, but it's my groomed appearance that people see in the real world so it's what they're used to and what they believe is me.

But the question is...which one is the REAL me?? [dun dun dun!!!]

[butterflydreams]

Venting time!!!!

Glad I found this thread. It just annoys the living hell out of me when people try and convince me that I will desire to date and marry someone. It's so damn annoying. When I tell them I'm not into romance and dating like that, they simply think I'm lying and I'm not. Being in an hypersexual society, if you are not only on the asexual spectrum but also on the aromatic spectrum like myself, may God help you because people will not leave you the hell alone (at least in my case).

It's like if you're not into sex and romance, there's SOMETHING wrong with you in society's eyes and it's just plain annoying as hell.I bet it's even worse for those who are 100% aromantic. I say this because people get on my nerves when I state I don't care if I ever date or not, I'm fine either way. But if some one who is aromantic states they want 0% romance, I bet anyone, whatever crap I get from others, an aromantic person will get even worse (I am not claiming all people on the ace or aromantic spectrum have the same experiences in society,by the way)

Welcome! I'm glad you found us here too!

Sorry you're feeling frustrated at the moment. I'm not really aromantic myself, but I see what you're saying about how annoying it is to feel like people won't leave you alone about it. My first suggestion would be to keep better company if you can. Not all people are like that and cool people will respect what you tell them and not push further.

Like I said, I'm not really aromantic, but outwardly, I'm sure I come across that way. By and large people don't seem to care. I could live and die and no one in my life would really give a damn what I did in between. Not that I'd recommend that outcome for you or someone else struggling, but it's a variation.

Mostly I think just stick with cool people, and places where you aren't going to get those kinds of pressures. They're out there.

But the question is...which one is the REAL me?? [dun dun dun!!!]

Was I supposed to read this with the Star Trek TOS fight music playing in my head? Because I did.

[Randomchaos]

Venting time!!!!

Glad I found this thread. It just annoys the living hell out of me when people try and convince me that I will desire to date and marry someone. It's so damn annoying. When I tell them I'm not into romance and dating like that, they simply think I'm lying and I'm not. Being in an hypersexual society, if you are not only on the asexual spectrum but also on the aromatic spectrum like myself, may God help you because people will not leave you the hell alone (at least in my case).

It's like if you're not into sex and romance, there's SOMETHING wrong with you in society's eyes and it's just plain annoying as hell.I bet it's even worse for those who are 100% aromantic. I say this because people get on my nerves when I state I don't care if I ever date or not, I'm fine either way. But if some one who is aromantic states they want 0% romance, I bet anyone, whatever crap I get from others, an aromantic person will get even worse (I am not claiming all people on the ace or aromantic spectrum have the same experiences in society,by the way)

Yeah I've run into that before, partially why I wanted to start this thread :) my first post was about some dude talking to me about it o.o

I'm both though I do fluctuate between grey aro and pan romantic. But I can't tell ya how many people have looked at me like I have a third eye when I say I'm not interested in dating :lol:

[Agrippina]

Hey I'm really new to this group. I'm 20yrs old and starting to realise that I'm somewhere in the ace spectrum. This here is me about to rant, vent and just get everything out in the open. I say I'm somewhere in the ace spectrum because I find the thought of finding out that i'll never be sexually and/or romantically attracted to someone very lonely and scary and that's why i consider myself gray ace as well as gray rom even though that may not be necessarily true. I've never experienced sexual attraction, i think i've experienced romantic attraction (it was very vague so i'm not sure). I've joined this group just to be in a community where there are other people who feel they way i do. In real life I don't know of any other ace persons and it gets really irritating dealing with people who often say "it's just a phase" or "you just haven't met the right person yet". I used to think those words were cliches you see in every LGBT+ movie but now it's actually being said to ME! I do honestly feel hopeless, like if i ever meet someone i'm interested in building a relationship it won't work out because it seems like everyone is into sex. I also feel like i'll have to constantly come out to people i might be interested in in the future like some sort of warning like "Don't take a step forward unless you're ready to have a sexless relationship".

[Snao Cone]

Welcome Minah!

Many people here have similar experiences to yours, and we'd be happy to offer help as you're navigating your life. :)

[butterflydreams]

I do honestly feel hopeless, like if i ever meet someone i'm interested in building a relationship it won't work out because it seems like everyone is into sex. I also feel like i'll have to constantly come out to people i might be interested in in the future like some sort of warning like "Don't take a step forward unless you're ready to have a sexless relationship".

Welcome, Minah! I just wanted to respond to this part here and say you're definitely not alone. But maybe it'll help to hear that not everyone is into sex to the same exact degree, and sex isn't 100% pivotal in 100% of relationships. This isn't me saying this, it's what my friend repeats to me over and over and over when I express the same worries you're expressing here. Ironically, I trust him on this because I know he loves sex. If even he can say that, it must be true.

And of course, technically speaking, you never have to come out to anyone if you don't want to. It might help to separate out some of the wheat from the chaff in the dating realm, but you're absolutely not obligated to do so.

I know it's not for everyone, but I've never been in a relationship, so I feel very unsure about how I'll feel about anything if/when I ever get there. So I personally choose to not say "never" to anything, because who knows...maybe? You know? I find that helps to take a bit of the pressure off. Sure, in my head, I'm pretty sure most things aren't going to be for me, but in terms of interacting with the world, and feeling better and less hopeless, it's nice to leave it open-ended. Just to help those kinds of "omg, no one is going to want a sexless relationship" freakout moments.

It changes to more of an "oh, I wonder what new feelings I'll experience today." And those feelings can be anything, not necessarily romantic/sexual.