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Skullery Maid

Wanting To Have Sexual Intercourse For The Purpose of Having A Baby Is Still Sexual Desire

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Tarfeather

Sexual desire is subconscious desire to reproduce.

That's almost a tautology. Just like saying that hunger is a subconscious desire to take in nutrition. Sure, we eat for other reasons than nutrition these days, and we have sex for other reasons than reproduction, but denying that this link exists, or denying the importance of this link for the human species, seems deeply unhealthy.

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m4rble

I've seen all variations on this topic.

Sexual desire is subconscious desire to reproduce.

Birth control failure is subconscious desire to reproduce.

Cervical cancer is subconscious hatred of your own feminity.

Some people are just weird.

Now: A desire to reproduce is a subconscious desire for sex. It's an infinite loop.

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Tarfeather

Yes, equivalences commute. Like 2 = 1 + 1 = 2 = 1 + 1 = 2 = ... But why would you do that?

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m4rble

Yes, equivalences commute. Like 2 = 1 + 1 = 2 = 1 + 1 = 2 = ... But why would you do that?

Ugh, I wrote a response to this and it didn't go through. Desiring sex and desiring reproduction aren't really equivalent, and neither are really subconscious desires for the other. Desiring sex often leads to reproduction, so it a highly selected for trait (or at least was during some parts of history). That doesn't make it a subconscious desire to reproduce. So, using the term "purpose" very loosely the purpose of sex is reproduction. The purpose of reproduction is certainly not sex and desiring to reproduce is certainly not subconsciously desiring sex. Saying the purpose of one thing is another thing is not equating them, and common sense tells us that purposes should not loop, otherwise it would be the equivalent of circular logic. Imagine someone asked their friend why they went to the beach and they said, "to go outside," They then asked why they wanted to go outside and they said,"to go to the beach,"

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Tarfeather

Hm.. you're right. But purposes do loop. Life propagates itself; The purpose of sex is to reproduce, and yet the purpose of reproduction is to create more creatures that can have sex and reproduce.

I know that must sound terribly quaint to asexuals. ;P

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m4rble

Hm.. you're right. But purposes do loop. Life propagates itself; The purpose of sex is to reproduce, and yet the purpose of reproduction is to create more creatures that can have sex and reproduce.

I know that must sound terribly quaint to asexuals. ;P

True, but the purpose for an individual organism to reproduce is not to have sex, it's the other way around.

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Snao van der Cone

:o How dare you say sex serves an important purpose to life! That's asexual erasure!

(I'm a very facetious person.)

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Homer

and neither are really subconscious desires for the other. Desiring sex often leads to reproduction, so it a highly selected for trait (or at least was during some parts of history). That doesn't make it a subconscious desire to reproduce.

I'm not really sure about that. The cultural factor might play a large role in this (which would be conscious in my book). To put it differently - maybe this subconscious desire has been put farther back in the line in favour of cultural factors.

This is meant as an idea, I'm not intending to sell this as a fact whatsoever.

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m4rble

and neither are really subconscious desires for the other. Desiring sex often leads to reproduction, so it a highly selected for trait (or at least was during some parts of history). That doesn't make it a subconscious desire to reproduce.

I'm not really sure about that. The cultural factor might play a large role in this (which would be conscious in my book). To put it differently - maybe this subconscious desire has been put farther back in the line in favour of cultural factors.

This is meant as an idea, I'm not intending to sell this as a fact whatsoever.

I suppose it's possibly a subconscious desire, but that seems a bit too Freudian for my tastes.

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Float On

I say it again. desiring a cookie is functionally the same thing as desiring chocolate chips, sugar, and batter, baked to perfection. but no, desiring a cookie "is not" desiring chocolate chips....

the thing is, no, of course wanting to reproduce naturally is not the same thing as wanting sex because you're sexual. duh! but it's still... wanting sex. sex is still part of the thing you want. you are wanting sexual reproduction. reproduction via sex. if that isn't wanting sex, then I literally do not know what is!

I know that there is a difference between somebody wanting a lover to make love to frequently, and wanting to one time reproduce using sex as means. I know they are different. but it is still wanting sex, it is still desiring sex, it is still sexual desire. it'd be like telling your train building company that you want a train, and when they ask you what engine you say, no I don't want an engine I want a train. duh a train is not an engine. but an engine is part of the train. when you want a train, you most certainly want an engine!

but I guess, somehow asexuals are an exception, and can want the train without needing the engine. they're magic or something. they make trains go without an engine! :lol:

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Sally

the thing is, no, of course wanting to reproduce naturally is not the same thing as wanting sex because you're sexual. duh! but it's still... wanting sex. sex is still part of the thing you want. you are wanting sexual reproduction. reproduction via sex. if that isn't wanting sex, then I literally do not know what is!

It. is. not. wanting. sex. It IS wanting a child.

I really don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.

Let's try something simple. There's something at a store that you want to buy. You must climb stairs to get to the store. You don't want the stairs; they are simply how you get to buy the product in the store.

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Float On

so why compare it to the store with stairs, verse the train with an engine? how can we determine which comparison is better?

or are these comparisons nothing but a trap?

maybe, the reality is that both comparisons are true. what then? :unsure:

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m4rble

so why compare it to the store with stairs, verse the train with an engine? how can we determine which comparison is better?

or are these comparisons nothing but a trap?

maybe, the reality is that both comparisons are true. what then? :unsure:

Sex isn't part of a child, it's what you do to get a child, just like you use stairs to get to a store. An engine is part of a train.

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Serran

Wanting a child is wanting a child.

Wanting your partner to stay your partner, is wanting your partner to stay your partner.

Neither of these is internal intrinsic desire for sex itself, which is what the definition debates tend to revolve around.

They are, in some sense of the word, wanting to have sex. Because otherwise, your partner is having sex with you when you do not want them to. And that isn't acceptable. We do decide we want to have sex for X reasons.

However, without that desire for sex coming from an internal desire for it then I don't think it matters much. Personally, I don't want kids the natural way - if I ever have kids, I will adopt. I don't want sex either, I won't even entertain the idea of dating a sexual anymore because I don't want to have to compromise. So, I can say in no circumstances do I want sex. However, in the past, yes I wanted to have sex with my partner as that was the only way to stay together. However, it was never for me. Same way yeah I want to work more hours at my job, not because I like my job, but because I want more money... however, it still makes me want to work at my job more hours because without one I can't have the other.

Oh and erm, as for "penis bones" ... no there isn't one. Major TMI

But, when someone is hard enough, it feels like a bone. Also, the pelvic bone during thrusting is pushing into you, along with their testicles slapping against your body.

A turkey baster sounds way, way, way more pleasant to me. :P

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Float On

from what marble said - I think then, that the store comparison is the meaningful one. so unless someone loves the train comparison and whats to champion it - I retract that analogy as non-meaningful.

Wanting a child is wanting a child.

Wanting your partner to stay your partner, is wanting your partner to stay your partner.

Neither of these is internal intrinsic desire for sex itself, which is what the definition debates tend to revolve around.

but... .this is agreed upon by just about everyone. at least I agree with this!

What I don't agree is in stripping the words "want sex" and "desire sex" of any other meaning, just because what is intrinsically desired is something else. that, a sexual intrinsically desires sex, and an asexual might intrinsically desires procreation. but the asexual still desires sex - it is just not the root desire - it is a derivative desire. the word "desire" can still be legally used - even if it isn't practical in its application.

yes! that's it exactly! :) Saying "an asexual who desires procreation also desires sex" is very impractical. but that doesn't make it inapplicable. the word is, unfortunately, applicable.

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Float On

(also, you can break a penis. the tissue that hardens does, after all, harden - the penis can "snap" and the tissue is damaged, perhaps blood vessels are burst too... it's very painful and requires an immediate hospital visit. but, there is no bone in the penis)

(also, "bone" and "boner" are both slang terms for the penis)

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Snao van der Cone

Saying "an asexual who desires procreation also desires sex" is very impractical. but that doesn't make it inapplicable. the word is, unfortunately, applicable.

It's not very clear or helpful to word it that way, no. The desire for sex is indirect. You can say "An asexual who desires procreation through natural means thus wants sex." I know the whole desire/want/choose debate is a prickly one that will never end, but you can see how in this case it helps to clarify the level upon which the choices are based: the choice to have baby-making sex is based on a want to conceive of a child naturally, which comes from a desire to produce offspring. The desire can be from deeply innate needs that are common in our species. The want can be from opinions and values formed around the means of reproduction. The choice is taking a logical option to get there.

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Tarfeather

Desiring sex != sexual desire, if that hasn't been made clear already.

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zoom

AFAIK only some primates plus dolphins (also known as: the most intelligent animals) have sex for pleasure.

So, in my opinion, only primates and dolphins are smart enough to say "heeeeey, sex leads to babies and we don't want that!", so the evolution needed to create "sex just for the sake of sex" so we don't stop doing it.

Of course that sex is meant for reproduction, but desiring sex does not imply that the person desires also some offspring. Same like "eating even after you are not hungry anymore" is meant to create extra fat tissue for the hungry days, but surely people don't eat because they subconsciously desire more fat tissue.

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m4rble

AFAIK only some primates plus dolphins (also known as: the most intelligent animals) have sex for pleasure.

Then why in the world do other animals have sex?

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zoom

AFAIK only some primates plus dolphins (also known as: the most intelligent animals) have sex for pleasure.

Then why in the world do other animals have sex?

I guess it is more like an urge to scratch than anything else. Like cats before castration, they were really suffering and crying the whole day to attract males etc., and cat sex is nothing nice (look up a picture of cat penis if you want).

And when there is no chance for a pregnancy, the females are just not interested. That's why they get so loud in the spring. While humans have sex during the whole cycle (and proving that "ovulating women are more attractive" needed a blinded research, it is not something you notice in everyday life) and during pregnancy and continue having sex after menopause. Having sex with a pregnant female is kinda abnormal. Such a waste of perfectly good sperm!

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m4rble

AFAIK only some primates plus dolphins (also known as: the most intelligent animals) have sex for pleasure.

Then why in the world do other animals have sex?

I guess it is more like an urge to scratch than anything else. Like cats before castration, they were really suffering and crying the whole day to attract males etc., and cat sex is nothing nice (look up a picture of cat penis if you want).

And when there is no chance for a pregnancy, the females are just not interested. That's why they get so loud in the spring. While humans have sex during the whole cycle (and proving that "ovulating women are more attractive" needed a blinded research, it is not something you notice in everyday life) and during pregnancy and continue having sex after menopause. Having sex with a pregnant female is kinda abnormal. Such a waste of perfectly good sperm!

Human reproductive cycles are not the same as cat reproductive cycles because humans are continuous breeders. Also, humans have been known to whine a lot about not getting sex, so I'm not really sure how they're so different from those cats.

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zoom

Humans are not continuous breeders, humans have few fertile days per month and the rest is just fucked (up) time.

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m4rble

Humans are not continuous breeders, humans have few fertile days per month and the rest is just fucked (up) time.

Here's a Wikipedia article on continuous breeders.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_breeders

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Tarfeather

Also, humans have been known to whine a lot about not getting sex, so I'm not really sure how they're so different from those cats.

What.

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Homer

I think I know how m4rble jumped to that thought. Still, it's hilarious to imagine women howling and frantically rolling over the sidewalk :D :D :D

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m4rble

Also, humans have been known to whine a lot about not getting sex, so I'm not really sure how they're so different from those cats.

What.
:P

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El-not-so-ace

Some music videos remind me of that... Like "I don't need a man" or "No" and the singers or dancers start rollung and rubbing themselves like cats in heat... Sigh, music clips are luckily not reality. :P Haha

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Maz

The desire to procreate is obviously a very sexual desire (apart from general bonding it's the primary reason sexuality exists after all) and I don't see why people who would do anything to have children including maybe taking hormones or using artificial insemination methods but don't desire sex are any less sexual than people who desire sex but don't desire children. But that of course is a matter of the definition of "sexual (desire/interaction/attraction)".

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masterplan

This has probably been said a million times, but...

A desire for sex is getting sad or upset when sex is absent from your life (simplified, opnions will differ).

A desire for children is getting upset when you will not have children.

A desire for sex to satisfy the desire to have children is getting upset when you cannot have children through standard sex and need another method.

If you do not mind using another method to get pregnant, but simply choose having sexual intercourse because it may be easier or less scary in any way, then that is a preference, not a desire. Because in the end, if you had to do it through other methods, you will not be upset if the intercourse has not been part of getting pregnant.

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