UK citizens decided to leave the EU

[Blaiddmelyn]

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

[iff]

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

is it like laying poker and showing your opponent your hand without you being able to see theirs?

[Blaiddmelyn]

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

is it like laying poker and showing your opponent your hand without you being able to see theirs?

Well, if Parliament discusses and records what terms they plan to negotiate in a debate and put it in Hansard then yes.

This is Hansard online - have a browse and you'll see what I mean.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/about

[Tanwen]

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

Having glanced at a copy of Hansard, I wonder why anyone would want to...unless they were having trouble sleeping :D . I agree with not showing her hand though.

As the judges are all pro EU, how on earth they can say they're impartial is beyond me. The Lords are an unelected body, mostly pro EU so Brexit will never go through the Upper House. I understand May (pp the Govt) is going to appeal and who thinks there will be any point in that? Of course, as a last resort there's always the ECJ - what a delicious irony! Going the the European Court of Justice to ask them if our Govt can trigger Article 50 without referring it to Parliament which is largely irrelevant while we're members of the EU :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Telecaster68]

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

MPs can say what they like, it doesn't make it government policy. Coordinating what ministers say as members of the executive in order to keep to a party line is standard, for instance in discussing potential military action in strategic terms without giving away tactics. That's all that seems needed to square the circle as far as I can see.

[Blaiddmelyn]

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

Having glanced at a copy of Hansard, I wonder why anyone would want to...unless they were having trouble sleeping :D . I agree with not showing her hand though.

As the judges are all pro EU, how on earth they can say they're impartial is beyond me. The Lords are an unelected body, mostly pro EU so Brexit will never go through the Upper House. I understand May (pp the Govt) is going to appeal and who thinks there will be any point in that? Of course, as a last resort there's always the ECJ - what a delicious irony! Going the the European Court of Justice to ask them if our Govt can trigger Article 50 without referring it to Parliament which is largely irrelevant while we're members of the EU :lol: :lol: :lol:

Judges will always have bias - they're humans. If the judges were anti-EU and had gone the other way, Remain would make the same argument and Leave would say they were paranoid. This country generally has fairly impartial judgments though sometimes they are influenced (R v Brown [1994] vs R v Wilson [1996] is a good example of the judges likely being biased against homosexuality. Anything that was delivered by Lord Denning has to be read with caution as well because he usually went off on his own). The SC may not be different. Baroness Hale's judgments can be, uh, interesting sometimes for example though sometimes, she's the only voice of reason.

The judgment seemed fairly bland. The executive's powers aren't so big that they erode Parliament and Parliament is supreme in respect of statute. My constitutional law is rusty but tbh, I'd have been surprised if it had gone the other way.

(I can't see the ECJ ruling on it. There's no real question for them to determine)

I don't think it's beyond the wit of the legislative drafts people to come up with sufficiently ambiguous wording which Parliament could approve but avoided sending the negotiators to the crease with a broken bat. They're generally pretty good at ambiguity.

It's not the legislation, it's the Hansard records. The very long, very comprehensive discussions are recorded and put in Hansard. Which anyone who can understand English can read.

MPs can say what they like, it doesn't make it government policy. Coordinating what ministers say as members of the executive in order to keep to a party line is standard, for instance in discussing potential military action in strategic terms without giving away tactics. That's all that seems needed to square the circle as far as I can see.

Maybe but given how emotive this subject is, I'd be surprised if everyone stuck to the party line. Not least because it's clear that most of them don't know anything about negotiating given half of them keep saying Theresa May should be shouting her strategy from the rooftops for them. I mean, normally I'm alright with Jeremy Corbyn for example but he's not really thought his argument on that point through... It's a risk and one the gov probably would prefer not to take.

[Skycaptain]

The way things are going, we won't need many more politicians to resign and we'll have to have an election.

This whole charade has to be isil's greatest victory

[michaeld]

The way things are going, we won't need many more politicians to resign and we'll have to have an election.

This whole charade has to be isil's greatest victory

It probably doesn't help ISIL a huge deal. I think it's Putin who is licking his lips... (He's one of only 3 international figures I can think of who were in favour of Brexit, the other two being Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump.)

[Skycaptain]

I didn't mean that it would help isil, just that without their actions, we wouldn't be so migrantphobic and a different result could have ensued.

Now the news today is saying that brexit campaigners may have broken electoral rules. (note use of "may", it is a matter for investigation, not a matter of certainty)

[iff]

http://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/ukip-politician-thinks-ireland-should-pay-for-welsh-motorway-with-eu-funds-35257292.html

 

I blame the influence of trump on a ukip politician wanting Ireland to pay for a welsh road

 

Although if you consider it, it does raise a real issue. Irish exports by haulage to mainland Europe could be if transported across Britain could be hit by import duties at entrance to the UK which could then add additional costs to Irish businesses.  A trade dispute if the leaving negotiations don't go well between UK and EU could affect Ireland more than anywhere else 

[fan fanackapan]

On 6/24/2016 at 11:37 AM, Nah said:

I think I'm just gonna move back home to Italy before I get kicked out.

Nobody's gonna kick you out and most normal Brexiteers wouldn't want that anyway. I wouldn't want that for decent people who have made this country their home. However, in my opinion we do need to have more control of our own laws, our own borders and more control over who comes in. What is also wrong is that there is a cap on the people coming here from Commonwealth countries and those that do come from Commonwealth countries need to be earning a certain wage otherwise they get turned away, as have many Commonwealth citizens wanting to work here as nurses, etc.

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

I wouldn't worry too much - seems like even though there appears to have been some recent consensus about the details of the agreement, in truth it's all gone Pete Tong....

[Ortac]

I find this notion of “taking back control”, that is often talked about by supporters of the Brexit, interesting. I think that paradoxically, the exact opposite could happen to the UK.

 

In the EU council of ministers, there are certain areas of legislation for which unanimous agreement between all members is required for it to be passed. This means that in effect, the UK has (or soon to be had) a veto and could block EU legislation that they did not like. And if you look at how many times new legislation was passed that the UK did not favour, it is actually not that many; the UK has had its way on matters of European legislation and laws most of the time.

 

Outside of the EU, the UK will have no say or influence whatsoever over EU laws and legislation, but if the citizens of that country believe that EU legislation will no longer affect them, they are being foolishly naive. Many of the supposedly “independent” nations in the Caribbean region are not truly independent at all; they exist in the shadow of the behemoth that is the United States of America, and the USA exerts huge influence over them and it has the power to impose sanctions over these nations and make things unpleasant for them if they do not conform to the USA’s wishes. Similarly, the EU exerts influence over small jurisdictions in Europe. They will say to the UK ‘You will conform to our wishes, otherwise, we will make things unpleasant for you’. That happens already to small jurisdictions in Europe which are not part of the EU but which cannot compete with the might of the EU. It is not very nice, but it is true.

 

Also I wonder if the brits who want the UK government to “take back control” will ultimately be the people who shout and protest because the UK government has used its newly regained power to do something that they don’t like! People there moan and complain about their government enough already as it is, so I think that outcome is certain!

[Skycaptain]

Here's the situation. Britain has royally fucked up, the government are too stupid to realise, and we'll spend the rest of our lives regretting this. 

[iff]

On 25/02/2018 at 7:21 PM, chandrakirti said:

I wouldn't worry too much - seems like even though there appears to have been some recent consensus about the details of the agreement, in truth it's all gone Pete Tong....

According to https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0227/944002-eu-customs-border/

 

The EU commision draft has northern Ireland in the customs union.

 

That will not satisfy the DUP and hard brexiteers in May's government.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Ortac]

When I glance at the British media today I see that there are yet more problems and hassle flaring up over Brexit; today the main problem is the Irish border issue.

 

The margin of the vote in favour of the UK leaving the European Union was less than 1.3 million votes. The analytics showed a large bias from the elderly in favour of leaving, and younger people were in favour of remaining. That means that since that vote in June 2016, many of the people who's votes swung the vote in the direction it went will have died. By March 2019, even more of them will have died. Also, more younger people have turned 18 and become eligible to vote. There will also be quite a few EU nationals resident in the UK who have since taken UK citizenship and who are also now also eligible to vote. My point is that it is that there may well no longer be a majority of people in favour of leaving!

 

As if that wasn’t enough, the vote was not exactly entirely democratic in the first place. What many people in the UK are unaware of but which is a huge bone of contention with UK expiates resident here in France and elsewhere in the EU is that many British citizens were DENIED a vote in the referendum because of an unfair rule which excludes anyone who left the UK more than fifteen years ago from being able to vote in any UK election or public vote. Other countries don’t do this to their citizens – if you are a citizen of the USA, you have a right to vote, regardless of your country of residence. The numbers affected by this are not insignificant – about 1.3 million people as it happens, which is just over the margin by which the remain vote was lost. I happen to have an interest in this as one of those 1.3 million people was an immediate family member.

 

And yet the UK government are pressing on with this madness which must be costing your economy big time already, and you’re not even out of the single market yet. It also means that the prime minister of the UK and other politicians have been preoccupied with practically nothing but this for well over a year, which means that other matters which they would ordinarily be dealing with must be getting neglected. I know perfectly well why the UK government is doing this, it is becasue of the so called "will of the people" and they are scared to defy them. However the UK media seems perfectly happy to go on about the will of the 17.4 million people who voted out whilst completely ignoring the will of the 16.1 million who voted in. You would have thought that with such a close vote, a compromise of a soft Brexit would be appropriate rather than this social and economic destruction that the UK prime minister seems hell bent on pursuing.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I know that the EU has many, many faults and dare I say it, probably even corruption. There are plenty of Eurosceptics here too. But the UK would be better off trying to reform the EU from the inside, and for the UK to throw their toys out of the pram because they don’t supposedly like Brussels telling them what to do is ignoring the reality of the way that business and the economy works. This Brexit stuff is causing big problems for UK business and economy, as well as difficulties in finding a solution for the Irish border problem which is a current topic right now. And Gibraltar is on edge because they have Spain breathing down their neck. These problems would just go away overnight and your economy would have an immediate boost if only you had the sense to realise that perhaps this Brexit notion was not such a good idea, and just stay with the status quo of full EU membership. Then you could become a normal, sane and prosperous country again instead of being an international laughing stock.

[Ortac]

14 hours ago, CaptainYesterday said:

The UK is not as economically weak as the Caribbean region, nor has it been colonized in recent history.  The EU's affect on the UK is nowhere near the United State's effect on the Caribbean, especially considering that the US still has territories in the Caribbean.

 

A valid point. Even so, the UK will still be a comparatively small nation exisiting in the shadow of a much larger neighboring bloc which will have the power over them due to the demographics of size and population. It would probably end up a bit like the relationship between the USA and Canada. Whilst both of those countries like to portray the image of two friendly neighbors working in partnership, the amount of influence and power the USA has over Canada, certainly in business and economical terms if not politically, is greater than many in the USA would admit and than many in Canada would like to admit.

 

14 hours ago, CaptainYesterday said:

The UK can help remedy this by strengthening their relationship with the United States, though I sadly feel like the "Special Relationship" is deteriorating as the UK people stray farther and farther from freedom, likely because this generation has already been influenced by the totalitarian governance of the EU.

Agreed they certainly should try to strengthen their relationship with the USA, and NOW. Because President Trump is clearly something of an anglophile, and he has stated that he is willing to do the UK an amazing trade deal. However, come the next election, which is not long, President Trump may well be gone, and there is no way of knowing if the new president will be as accommodating. Barak Obama for example was much more hostile and indifferent to the UK.

 

 

[ThaHoward]

Seeing as Trump admire Putin, straying away from freedom (however UK do that) isn't bad. Matter of fact Trump admires it. Seeing as USA is planning to arm Ukraine's Army it matter little what Trump feels. In the end common strategic goals is put higher than freedom or non freedom. Turkey being a prime example. A country actually becoming authorian, but it remain a key NATO member, in turn US ally, not because Erdogan is admired by Trump, but because they're in a strategic position in regards to missiles, position in the Middle East and literally being the gate keeper to Russia's Black Sea fleet.

[iff]

4 hours ago, Ortac said:

When I glance at the British media today I see that there are yet more problems and hassle flaring up over Brexit; today the main problem is the Irish border issue.

 

The Irish - northern Irish border is an issue close to my heart, well literally it is close anyway.

 

I followed the UK EU debates closely, there did not seem to be a consideration in regards to the border here or the damage that this would do the peace process in northern Ireland or effect on the good Friday agreement 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/northern-ireland-border-good-friday-agreement-brexit-brexiteers-irish-republic-customs-union-a8232821.html

 

I posted earlier in this thread in jul 2016 or so brexit minister Derek Davis' interview where he talked about how he "didn't want internal borders in the UK between northern Ireland and southern Ireland"

 

1. What is this country "southern Ireland" he speaks of?

2: what did he mean by " internal border"?

3: does he think "southern Ireland" is part of the UK hence why he talked about "internal borders"

 

Did the border issue or good Friday agreement reckon in the UK debates prior to the referendum?

 

Though then again in 1998, leading brexiter and current minister in the uk government Michael gove compared the good Friday agreement to Nazi appeasement in 1937 so would he be too upset by breakdown of the good Friday agreement?

 

As i was crossing the border to have dental work done, Theresa may did state In December 2017 that there would be no hard border

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-statement-on-eu-negotiations-11-december-2017

 

The only way to do so is remain in the common market (or Ireland leave the common market which is not going to happen)

 

Quote

And yet the UK government are pressing on with this madness which must be costing your economy big time already, and you’re not even out of the single market yet. It also means that the prime minister of the UK and other politicians have been preoccupied with practically nothing but this for well over a year, which means that other matters which they would ordinarily be dealing with must be getting neglected. I 

A peer in the house of lords was comparing it to when his three aunts wanted to go to the cinema, he took them to it and all that was playing was Texas chainsaw massacre and Shawshank redemption.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/958720861070151681?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23958720861070151681

 

[Skycaptain]

My biggest concern with the Irish border situation is that we don't want currently inactive paramilitaries to use it as an excuse to start blowing things up and killing people again 

[paperbackreader]

I'm gonna say something stupid... but I'm really fed up of the Brexit media monopoly

Remain, leave... there are opportunities and set backs in both. And you're never really gonna know what may have been if the outcome was reversed. In an infinite multiverse somewhere, maybe the UK decided to stay, Europe collapses, and we get dragged down anyway... and hey, our productivity is shit; meanwhile, China capitalises on their regulatory laxness by taking over all developing economies and monopolising rare materials... 

 

The question was flawed and ill-defined, the 'facts' presented was flawed, the direction being set is wobbly (and without proper mandate), the negotiations are bullshit - and there are many days where I wake up wishing fervently that Cameron would get a bee sting in his nose. But every moment in which every bystander shouts down their opposing party as laggards - we're ignoring taking practical steps to move forward.

 

But I guess I kind of understand. To both sides of the party, the other is being an idiot and agreement isn't possible. It's like arguing about religion. 

 

I feel like the kid that's caught in between two fighting parents shouting:  

OMG CAN YOU HIT PAUSE FOR A SECOND CAN SOMEONE JUST FRIGGING PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE ROOF IS LEAKING, THE MAIN GATE IS UNLOCKED, YOUR NURSE HAS RESIGNED BECAUSE SHE IS UNDERPAID AND WE MAY HAVE SOPHISTICATED BURGLARS AT THE DOOR - CAN WE PAY ATTENTION TO PRACTICAL MATTERS BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE JOINING THE NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCH

 

(Sorry, you guys are actually raising some amazing points, I'm just being grumpy and annoyed and needed to rant) 

 

Dear Ireland, I love you and your amazing people very much, please make sure you keep up with your antibiotics and make sure you don't redevelop that severe form of pesky infection which we too are suffering from at the moment - Much love, PBR xx

[Tyke]

8 hours ago, paperbackreader said:

I'm gonna say something stupid... but I'm really fed up of the Brexit media monopoly

Remain, leave... there are opportunities and set backs in both. And you're never really gonna know what may have been if the outcome was reversed. In an infinite multiverse somewhere, maybe the UK decided to stay, Europe collapses, and we get dragged down anyway... and hey, our productivity is shit; meanwhile, China capitalises on their regulatory laxness by taking over all developing economies and monopolising rare materials... 

 

The question was flawed and ill-defined, the 'facts' presented was flawed, the direction being set is wobbly (and without proper mandate), the negotiations are bullshit - and there are many days where I wake up wishing fervently that Cameron would get a bee sting in his nose. But every moment in which every bystander shouts down their opposing party as laggards - we're ignoring taking practical steps to move forward.

 

But I guess I kind of understand. To both sides of the party, the other is being an idiot and agreement isn't possible. It's like arguing about religion. 

 

I feel like the kid that's caught in between two fighting parents shouting:  

OMG CAN YOU HIT PAUSE FOR A SECOND CAN SOMEONE JUST FRIGGING PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE ROOF IS LEAKING, THE MAIN GATE IS UNLOCKED, YOUR NURSE HAS RESIGNED BECAUSE SHE IS UNDERPAID AND WE MAY HAVE SOPHISTICATED BURGLARS AT THE DOOR - CAN WE PAY ATTENTION TO PRACTICAL MATTERS BEFORE WORRYING ABOUT WHETHER WE'RE JOINING THE NEIGHBOURHOOD WATCH

 

(Sorry, you guys are actually raising some amazing points, I'm just being grumpy and annoyed and needed to rant) 

 

Dear Ireland, I love you and your amazing people very much, please make sure you keep up with your antibiotics and make sure you don't redevelop that severe form of pesky infection which we too are suffering from at the moment - Much love, PBR xx

I think you need a dose of happy food (aka Marmite Chicken, ha ha ). But I agree with so much of what you type, too.

 

Greetings from Canberra, by the way. 

[paperbackreader]

@Midland Tyke - I think a more accurate reflection is that I needed some sleep... Slept a little too much and now a bit woofy poofy aloof again. Hope you're liking the land down under!  

 

Did anyone else catch the Hammond speech or Tusk announcements? Any thoughts?