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Telecaster68

For asexuals: when you say you physically enjoy sex, what does that actually mean? [almost inevitable TMI]

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Telecaster68

I'd put it that they like orgasms but they don't like sex, particularly since to most sexuals, the interaction part is the essence of it. It sounds like they'd be happiest masturbating, which is pretty asexual.

My point is... you can enjoy physical sensations without enjoying all the rest that comes along with it. Or, you know, you can enjoy some aspects without enjoying all aspects, and the parts you don't like can be offputting enough to make you prefer to avoid the whole shebang.

I really don't see what's so hard to understand about that.

If we're talking about asexuals who more than just enjoy it... asexuals who want sex... but then do the dumb "I'd be fine never having it again" thing... those folks I think simply misunderstand what desires are. One can have a desire without it being an obsession, but that's a distinction that some AVEN members don't seem to grasp.

Either way, in aggregate, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages or they don't, and that aggregate result doesn't need to be paradoxical, just something 'on balance'.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

In which case, why the apathy/revulsion towards having sex with someone, if you enjoy making them come so much? And I completely agree, getting someone off is fantastic.

Because, penis. Sex involving a penis is one of the most disgusting things I can imagine (penis-shaped toys are almost as bad), and death is preferrable.

Lesbian sex is okeydokey fine (as slong as it involves no strap ons, dildos etc.), and has never been a problem for me.

So you enjoyed making the woman cum (most sexuaIs enjoy making their sex partner cum, it's an awesome part of sex) because your penis wasn't involved.. are you saying you wouId desire partnered sex on some level (or at least actively enjoy engaging in it) if you had a vagina and/or if you couId just make a woman you care about cum without your penis having anything to do with it?

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Mysticus Insanus

I overlooked this one...


If we're talking about asexuals who more than just enjoy it... asexuals who want sex... but then do the dumb "I'd be fine never having it again" thing... those folks I think simply misunderstand what desires are. One can have a desire without it being an obsession, but that's a distinction that some AVEN members don't seem to grasp.

Honestly, I think if one has a desire, one can never be truly fine with never giving in to it again. At peace with it, yes. But not fine. There'll always be some nagging conflict of frustration even though, yes, you're right, lots and lots of sexuals - and everyone who does feel that desire is sexual, not ace - will find some way able to live with it, somehow. Not every celibate sexual turns depressive and suicidal. Many sacrifices are doable, and possible to live with in peace - but that doesn't stop them from being sacrifices.

I just have a massive problem with pseudo-asexuals who are outspoken about it that they can't be fine living without sex. That's bullshit. They are obviously not ace. And I have no patience for an ideology that expects me to validate their nonsensical ramblings.


EDIT:


In which case, why the apathy/revulsion towards having sex with someone, if you enjoy making them come so much? And I completely agree, getting someone off is fantastic.

Because, penis. Sex involving a penis is one of the most disgusting things I can imagine (penis-shaped toys are almost as bad), and death is preferrable.

Lesbian sex is okeydokey fine (as slong as it involves no strap ons, dildos etc.), and has never been a problem for me.

So you enjoyed making the woman cum (most sexuaIs enjoy making their sex partner cum, it's an awesome part of sex) because your penis wasn't involved.. are you saying you wouId desire partnered sex on some level (or at least actively enjoy engaging in it) if you had a vagina and/or if you couId just make a woman you care about cum without your penis having anything to do with it?

I have asked myself that, a lot, and my answer is always the same - I do not know, but I am certainly not ruling it out. There is a decent chance that if my dad's sperm had carried an X instead of a Y, I'd be a plain old sexual Lesbian... probably a good bit more misandric than most, but yeah, not ace.

As for the status quo, with me having a penis - actively enjoyed engaging in sex that did not involve it, yes. Which does not invalidate being ace.*
Desire it, no. Never did. I am, and for as much as I can honestly tell, will probably remain so till my dying day, perfectly fine with never having sex again.


* That bit right there? I have always said that. You, however, have pretty recently, changed your stance on that, massively. If we are, as you say, no longer on the same page regarding asexuality - my dear, it's on you, not on me. Own it, and don't try to put it on me. I can dig up posts of mine from before you ever came on here that prove you wrong.

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Skullery Maid

I don't disagree with you re: desires and sacrifices, but I know from experience... and you probably as well, Mysti... that over time, what was once a sacrifice merely becomes habit.

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Mysticus Insanus

I don't disagree with you re: desires and sacrifices, but I know from experience... and you probably as well, Mysti... that over time, what was once a sacrifice merely becomes habit.

Point taken... However...

If someone (let's go with the classic djinni in a bottle) offered you to a chance to change that habit with noone - in this case, especially not an asexual partner you're with - being in any way hurt or inconvenienced by it, would you take that chance? Would you feel relieved by the change in any way?

If the answer is yes.... well, there's your answer. ;)

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Philip027
One a scale of 1-10, where 1 is something like walking out of a humid 32 deg celsius into an air-conned shop, and 10 is 'holy f*** what the hell was that don't stop don't ever stop'...

I'm not too sure how to interpret this scale, because what you say under "1" is literally one of the best feelings in the world to me >_>

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Peachyy

I mean, how much?

One a scale of 1-10, where 1 is something like walking out of a humid 32 deg celsius into an air-conned shop, and 10 is 'holy f*** what the hell was that don't stop don't ever stop'...

And if it's more than say, about a six, why are you perfectly okay with never doing it again, for it's own sake?

Idk man.... An air-conditioned room in the heat of summer, a piss after no bathroom breaks, taking hair extensions out and running my hands through my (regretfully shoulder length ) hair have all been 10's , whereas sex is always about a -1 to 4 depending on what's going on and how much I'm not receiving (me receiving is bad, but me giving is ideal).

I would revise 1 to.... Scenario: I find a bag of green beans in my freezer and there's only a few with frostbite. I smother the off-flavor with tapatio.

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Telecaster68
One a scale of 1-10, where 1 is something like walking out of a humid 32 deg celsius into an air-conned shop, and 10 is 'holy f*** what the hell was that don't stop don't ever stop'...

I'm not too sure how to interpret this scale, because what you say under "1" is literally one of the best feelings in the world to me >_>

Well me too. It's glorious, but I guess the difference to me is that it's calming; the opposite of the urgency of sex. I'm very open to better suggestions of a mild, 'mmm yes, that's ok but no more than that' pleasure though.

It's interesting that Pan's, Serran's and Mysti's understandably qualified experiences aside, none of the asexuals I've seen post about how they enjoy sex have contributed.

My underlying thought was whether sexuals' enjoyment of sex was of a different order (like, more intense, more urgent, more bonding, more intimate or whatever) than asexuals', and whether that shed any light on this liking-but-not-liking paradox. The scale was just a starting point, and playing to the apparently high proportion of self-identifying INTs on AVEN.

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Jade Cross

I dont get why its absolutely imperative to know a difference. Curiosity is one thing and I can easily get behind that, but during my time here, I have tended to notice that alot of arguments surface over one side trying to get the other to function according to their standards (both sexual and aswxual alike). Why cant the answer be either "I like it" or "I dont like it" and leave it at that?

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Telecaster68

It's pretty much curiosity, but I'm also trying to get my head round why so many asexuals say they enjoy sex but don't want to do it.

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Jade Cross
Probably for the same reason you can enjoy a food but dont want to eat it morning, noon and night. Its like if I saw an icecream sign and said "hmmm that wouldnt be a bad thing to have right now" and I go and buy one. But Im not going to wake up the next morning and say "Icecream!" then at noon say "icecream!" and then the same at night, because its extremely likely that I will get sick of and by the thing.

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Telecaster68
Probably for the same reason you can enjoy a food but dont want to eat it morning, noon and night.

But the analogy would be saying you like ice cream and never wanting it unless someone else put one in your hand, and being perfectly happy to never ever have ice cream again. I wouldn't describe that as the behaviour of someone who actually likes ice cream.

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Jade Cross

The fundamental difference would be that sexuals need sex whereas asexuals only have it as a casual (as in non imperative, not casual as in once in a while) activity, meaning that they can enjoy it when and if its presented to them (assumimg they are not repulsed and whatnot) but they will never see/feel it as a necessity like with sexuals who are adversely affected by its lack and hence never really seek it out of theor own accord.

If you were to ask me then yes, I could very happily live without ever touching a single icecream bar the rest of my life just like I can happily live a life without sex (which is pretty much what I do now) because neither are a need and its absence doesnt affect me in any way. Instead of looking at it like a behavior per se, think of it as a type of demand and supply scenario. A sexual will demand sex and require a supply, whereas an asexual can have a larhe supply of it but never have a demand for it at all.

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Telecaster68

But if you told me you liked ice cream but never want to have one of your volition, and would be quite happy to never have one again, I'd challenge the idea you actually liked them.

A sexual will demand sex and require a supply, whereas an asexual can have a larhe supply of it but never have a demand for it at all.

No demand for any of it. That's the point. People saying 'I like x' but unless someone more or less shoves it in their face, show no inclination or interest in 'x'. How is that different from feeling entirely neutral about 'x'?

Or, if we accept that asexuals do enjoy x, doesn't it naturally flow that it would bother you never to do it again? But asexuals are quite happy to never do something ever again, even if they enjoy it? It makes no sense to me.

Again, if it really doesn't bother you never to do x again, I'd suggest you don't actually enjoy it. You just don't mind it.

Hence my OP question on the nature of asexual enjoyment of sex.

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Jade Cross

Liking something and continually seeking it are two different things.

But lets change the wording a bit and see if how it goes. If it was said that asexuals dont mind sex, how is the overall result affected?

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Telecaster68
Liking something and continually seeking it are two different things.

I'm not talking about continually seeking it. I'm talking about saying you like something and at the same time never wanting to experience it.

If somebody said 'I enjoy a cup of coffee but I'd never make one for myself', or 'I enjoy My LIttle Pony but I'd never put it on the TV myself', or 'I enjoy Marvel comics but I'd never actually pick one up to read', wouldn't you think their use of the word 'enjoy' was odd, and they actually meant 'am one notch above ambivalent'?

If it was said that asexuals dont mind sex, how is the overall result affected?

Because 'don't mind' is consistent with 'never seeking out', whereas 'enjoying' just isn't.

As a corollary - the next beat in this discussion is often something like 'well, I sort of enjoy it and I sort of don't, that's why I say I enjoy it but I don't seek it out'.

If, on aggregate, you enjoy more than don't enjoy, then, over all, you enjoy something. If, on the the other hand, on aggregate you don't enjoy more parts than you do enjoy, then over all, you don't enjoy it. This does not mean it's imbued with some kind of mystical enigma. I'm baffled by this needing to turn it all into some self-contradictory paradox.

What you're [the generic 'you'] is actually saying there are some bits that I enjoy, but over all, I don't enjoy it. Which is fine. The bit that does my head in is saying you enjoy something but you never want to do it.

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Jade Cross
But again, how is the overall result affected? More than just making sense to you in a linear like pattern?

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Telecaster68
More than just making sense to you in a linear like pattern?

Not so much linear, as having some relationship with how people normally behave. But nothing beyond that. I'm just trying to understand.

I honestly find it interesting that almost no asexual can apparently understand the contradiction, though.

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Jade Cross

I dont think you could use contradictions as a reasonable argument given that humans are by nature pretty contradictory and they live with paradoxes all the time.

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Telecaster68
I dont think you could use contradictions as a reasonalble argument given that humans are by nature pretty contradictory and they live with paradoxes all the time.

I'm not using it as an argument. I'm trying to understand why people don't think it's a contradiction.

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Jade Cross
I think that instead of contradiction, the best word to use could be paradox

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chimaera

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Telecaster68

Possibly. But it seems to be more about saying you like something when in fact you demonstrably don't, if you compare it to any other similar instance (like watching football, drinking coffee, eating icecream, reading comics etc.). And since asexuals are on here basically to say 'I don't like sex' in various ways, and do, and for once are under no pressure to say anything different, why are they saying they like it? Presumably they believe it... but why? How?

Somewhere underneath this, there's one of those massive conceptual gaps between sexuals and asexuals, I suspect, and I wondered if it was to do with the nature of 'enjoying'.

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Telecaster68

Chim

If your boyfriend said 'actually, I'm not bothered about sex anymore', would you miss getting your level 8 enjoyment? Would you initiate yourself?

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Jade Cross

I dont believe that enjoying something necessarily makes you sink into one category. Its as if saying that just because you enjoy 1 death metal song out of an entire album(s) that the same day, youre going to start wearing all black with boots, the whole getup and going to concerts. That would be odd in my book.

I gather that it may seem strange but the way I see it language is a big limitor here because we lack enough words to successfully convey the idea.

Like I mentioned before, I think its better to just call it a paradox

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Telecaster68
I dont believe that enjoying something necessarily makes you sink into one category.

That's not remotely what I'm saying. The analogy would be you saying 'I like death metal' but never choosing to listen to it, and being quite happy if you never heard it again, but okay to go along with it if someone else happened to have it on.

Do you understand why I'd be skeptical that you actually liked it?

Okay, I've just figured out why I'm not comfortable with it being called a paradox and shrugged away. Paradoxes are beyond our control. They just are. But people are choosing to say 'I like x' and choosing to act like they don't in fact like x; and then seem baffled when someone points this out.

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Mysticus Insanus

We do have sex because we both believe it's an essential part of a relationship (intimacy, closeness etc.) and I do like it (8? on a scale of 1 to 10) but the thing is, once we break up (and we will, because we're only compatible in the short run) I'm not sure when/if I'll seek out another relationship/sex, simply because I'm very picky when it comes to romantic/sexual partners (plus I have a low libido on top of that).

That's a pretty big difference between you and me, though (I'm making it about a comparison to me because, while I'm repulsed, not favorable, I obviously still fall into the group you're fed up with).

In Mysti-Town, sex simply isn't an essential part of a relationship. There was no sexuality extant between R. and me in over six years of partnership. None whatsoever. I was perfectly fine with that, nothing at all felt "missing" from it for me. If I can offer a hand to a partner getting off, cool, and I would have been fine with it if R. would have enjoyed that. It's a small, additional bonus of another enjoyable activity together, just like any other shared hobby. But if it never happens - just as good.

I assume for the average sexual, that would be like trying to drive a car without wheels. For me, it's, at the very worst, considering a car in Midnight Blue the perfect car, but ending up driving one in Dark Ocean Blue. Needs a good bit of a nitpicky eye to even notice the difference.

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Herfst Seizoen

I suppose the difference between "enjoy" and "not enjoy" is sometimes really small.

EDIT: Btw when you feel both negative and positive emotions about something, those emotions don't add up to become neutrality. They still exist separately. Just like you cannot add "homosexual" and "heterosexual" to receive "asexual". No, instead you receive an orientation with (sexual/ romantic) emotions in both directions (bisexual). Hope this made sense.

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Jade Cross

People can do all sorts of things that they understand but find it odd that others dont, thats just the same, basic human reaction as anything else thats paradoxical. Basically we (unconsciously) say " if it works for me, it must work for everyone as well", when this has proven time after time to not be true for many things including sex.

We may not like it but it is there regardless.

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chimaera

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