ethical obligations

[butterflydreams]

I found an article this morning. I think it's very relevant here, though I will let others read it and form their own opinions.

Wow, what are the odds? An article tailored almost exactly to a random discussion we're having. For that, I give it props. It reminded me of this thing I read years ago.

But if I'm entirely honest, it was hard for me to get through that article. If I said how it really made me feel here I'd probably end up with a poke from the admods. Suffice it to say, the article and to a large extent this thread, have made me feel like shit. Not because of anyone here. Just the overall lay of things. I feel like there's no way out, and I don't even know what anyone could possibly do to convince me otherwise. Props to Anonymous, I'm glad for them. But as far as I'm concerned, Steve doesn't exist.

"Hadley, you're beautiful! Your Steve is out there!"

Bullshit. I can't keep lying to myself anymore. It's unhealthy. He's not out there and I'm a marginally cute freak on the best of days.

Anonymous got to talk to "dozens" of other guys. Even if they were interested in nothing but taking virginity, that's a whole step farther than I've ever gotten, and a decade sooner.

So basically, this whole discussion (for me anyway) is moot. An interesting thought experiment at best. Akin to musing about the best type of landing gear for a crewed spacecraft going to one of Saturn's moons. Do you have the spacecraft built? No. Any idea how to get the crew there and back alive? No. Do you have a willing crew? No. So then who gives a shit about the damn landing gear?

You know what, space travel is a huge pain in the ass anyway and best left to people who've already got space ships.

Sorry...wow, I'm incredibly negative. I'm so tired. Let's see how many tears I've got left.

[m4rble]

If it makes you feel any better, I would feel honored to date you Hadley, if I had the opportunity. Of course, I'm not a man, plus I'm not sure if our ages matchup.

[El-not-so-ace]

Ever since I was 16, I had thought I was asexual , so ever since, I've always only searched for asexuals to date from the start. I found my boyfriend on acebook and we just surprisingly both ended up not being asexuals after all.

Otherwise, I didn't date because I knew that I couldn't offer what most of them wanted, especially in a shorter timeframe than I'd ever be ready for. Plus, I initially wanted a cute Christian who loves animals. Somehow, that's been impossible. My current boyfriend's not Christian and doesn't like cats, but he has a dog.

All this to say that everyone would rather not have to compromise on important things in their dating choices, especially since some are pretty important characteristics... but the reality shows that we can be too picky for our own good.

I may be biased, but I feel like with websites such as acebook, it is definitely possible to find a relationship with an asexual. It'll take longer and the relationship might be long-distance at first (mine's just a "short" 24-hour plane ride away), but if you care about the person and are otherwise compatible, it can work out. I miss my boyfriend enormously, I never really understood how some asexuals on here don't do long-distance relationships. I'd think that when your dating pool is small, it's better to search farther out than to date locals that you pretty much force into a mostly-sexless relationship that they do not desire.

But that's just me since I've always been terrified of leading someone on and hurting them.

Hadley, with +7B people on this earth, 1% of asexuals is still a pretty big number. I'm pretty certain that there'd be compatible asexuals or low-desiring celibates. You might have the odds stacked against you, but the chances are there. Isn't it better to search longer until finding this potential person than being in awful relationships that tear your heart out every single time?

Anyway, feel free to PM me if you'd like to. I'd be happy to lend an ear and friendship. :)

[scarlett45]

I found an article this morning. I think it's very relevant here, though I will let others read it and form their own opinions.

Wow, what are the odds? An article tailored almost exactly to a random discussion we're having. For that, I give it props. It reminded me of this thing I read years ago.

But if I'm entirely honest, it was hard for me to get through that article. If I said how it really made me feel here I'd probably end up with a poke from the admods. Suffice it to say, the article and to a large extent this thread, have made me feel like shit. Not because of anyone here. Just the overall lay of things. I feel like there's no way out, and I don't even know what anyone could possibly do to convince me otherwise. Props to Anonymous, I'm glad for them. But as far as I'm concerned, Steve doesn't exist.

"Hadley, you're beautiful! Your Steve is out there!"

Bullshit. I can't keep lying to myself anymore. It's unhealthy. He's not out there and I'm a marginally cute freak on the best of days.

Anonymous got to talk to "dozens" of other guys. Even if they were interested in nothing but taking virginity, that's a whole step farther than I've ever gotten, and a decade sooner.

So basically, this whole discussion (for me anyway) is moot. An interesting thought experiment at best. Akin to musing about the best type of landing gear for a crewed spacecraft going to one of Saturn's moons. Do you have the spacecraft built? No. Any idea how to get the crew there and back alive? No. Do you have a willing crew? No. So then who gives a shit about the damn landing gear?

You know what, space travel is a huge pain in the ass anyway and best left to people who've already got space ships.

Sorry...wow, I'm incredibly negative. I'm so tired. Let's see how many tears I've got left.

I am sorry Hadley. It's always hard being "different". I know what that's like feeling "broken" and misunderstood (although not about asexuality). You cry as much as you need.

But if a romantic relationship is something you want, you may have to put in. The extra steps, like acebook or finding a low drive celibate sexual. Life is long, and we've got to make the best of what we are working with. Hope you feel better soon.

[Heart]

I found an article this morning. I think it's very relevant here, though I will let others read it and form their own opinions.

Wow, what are the odds? An article tailored almost exactly to a random discussion we're having. For that, I give it props. It reminded me of this thing I read years ago.

But if I'm entirely honest, it was hard for me to get through that article. If I said how it really made me feel here I'd probably end up with a poke from the admods. Suffice it to say, the article and to a large extent this thread, have made me feel like shit. Not because of anyone here. Just the overall lay of things. I feel like there's no way out, and I don't even know what anyone could possibly do to convince me otherwise. Props to Anonymous, I'm glad for them. But as far as I'm concerned, Steve doesn't exist.

"Hadley, you're beautiful! Your Steve is out there!"

Bullshit. I can't keep lying to myself anymore. It's unhealthy. He's not out there and I'm a marginally cute freak on the best of days.

Anonymous got to talk to "dozens" of other guys. Even if they were interested in nothing but taking virginity, that's a whole step farther than I've ever gotten, and a decade sooner.

So basically, this whole discussion (for me anyway) is moot. An interesting thought experiment at best. Akin to musing about the best type of landing gear for a crewed spacecraft going to one of Saturn's moons. Do you have the spacecraft built? No. Any idea how to get the crew there and back alive? No. Do you have a willing crew? No. So then who gives a shit about the damn landing gear?

You know what, space travel is a huge pain in the ass anyway and best left to people who've already got space ships.

Sorry...wow, I'm incredibly negative. I'm so tired. Let's see how many tears I've got left.

*many, many hugs*

For what it's worth, there may be very few Steves out there. But you only need to find one.

I'm sorry you're feeling so down. The dating game is brutal and thankless, until you one day hit the jackpot. But there's no guarantee you'll hit that jackpot, and even if you do, it's a lot of hard work and heart break until you get there.

If you're interested in my two cents, I'd start up a similar thread to this one but in the Relationships forum. You'll get a bit of a different audience there, and maybe you'll be able to talk to more aces who have made it work in mixed relationships. A different audience may take this same conversation in a very different direction.

[Guest]

I don't really get it. Steve sounds like a regular, non-rapist dude. Surely I'm missing something here.

Being willing to masturbate because that particular day your partner doesn't want to have sex? NORMAL.

Having at least semi-frequent sex with your partner? NORMAL

Having sex and being enthusiastic sometimes, while just doing it to do it other times? NORMAL

I swear to god, you guys... if all asexuality meant is that someone isn't always "up for it", there would be virtually no mixed-relationship issues. Sigh. Anonymous and her description of Steve... a couple who has regular sex but on individual days, her preferences vary... just, I fail to see how that's beneficial for asexual awareness or helpful for mixed couples.

Forget Steve. You guys have a bunch of Steves here... Me, Tele, Tar, LG, etc... we're all Steves.

[butterflydreams]

Forget Steve. You guys have a bunch of Steves here... Me, Tele, Tar, LG, etc... we're all Steves.

I mean, it's tough to say exactly what their entire relationship is like based on a single blog post. You know, maybe I'll catch flak for this--and I'm not saying this is the case with Anonymous and Steve--but I've seen way too many stories of people who were "asexual" who got into relationships and then starting sexing on at least some kind of repetitive basis. Because, "well, I guess it's not that bad" and/or "well, I love him/her/them" and/or "well, I enjoy it on some level". That's not called being asexual, it's called being selective. And there's a whole ocean between that and whatever it is I'm experiencing.

And no, those kinds of things don't help people in mixed relationships, and they don't help me either.

But hey, I'm nothing if not consistently (bafflingly) bright-eyed about things. And if you guys are all Steves, good. I hope to meet one of your kind in real life someday, but so far I haven't. Because it's always something. All these "super tolerant" and "progressive" "open-minded" people...unless you're a virgin. Unless you've never been in a relationship before. Unless you're unsure how you feel about sex. Give me a break. Put your money where your mouth is.

[Guest]

Is that a dare, Hads? You know I can't turn down a dare... ;)

[butterflydreams]

Is that a dare, Hads? You know I can't turn down a dare... ;)

Hahaha, the world isn't ready for that combination yet :lol:

But I do genuinely appreciate the implication that you (and presumably others) would genuinely take me up on my dare/challenge to "open-minded" people. Online dating surely has NONE in my experience, and when you look over queer people, the situation is even worse.

[Guest]

I absolutely would! I know you know everything that you're facing... possible asexuality, gender change, age, etc... I've no idea what Vermont is like, but I know that if you were in, like Austin or Portland or Seattle or San Fran, you'd be getting a lot more action. Have you considered relocation?

[butterflydreams]

Vermont might as well be Portland east with all the weirdos we have around here. We did create Bernie after all ;) I actually specifically relocated to Vermont, from one of the youngest, queer-friendly eastern cities, Boston. I could just never do cities. I did consider moving to Portland actually. But I had such a hard time building a community here that I'd hate to throw it all away. I don't get comfortable or make new friends easily, so it would probably take years to build up what I have here somewhere else.

Plus, aren't queer people pretty much the same everywhere? I have a hard time believing that it would really be that different.

Man, I'm just lol'ing at it so much, "I'm a queer, genderfluid bisexual who's sort of into open relationships and letting people be themselves! Woo, gay marriage! Woo, inclusive bathrooms!"

Uh huh...what's your opinion on dating a virgin, or someone who's never been in a relationship before?

"Eww, no, they probably have issues. I don't want any part of that." *smh*

[Guest]

I thought that was true about Vermont, but I didn't want to make assumptions. I know it's insanely liberal, though. So, OK, nevermind that suggestion. If you ever feel like getting outta dodge for a bit and chillin' on the West coast, there's always a place to crash with Skullery and crew. I wish I could give you a package of "free from worry" cards, so every now and again you could redeem one and just.... float throughout the day feeling completely accepted and peaceful and joyous.

All I can say about that last part is that thanks to AVEN, I have learned how assholish so many people are. I guess I'm just willfully ignorant of assholes, but I really had a much better view of people I thought were sensible and kind than I do now.

[binary suns]

It's not just being able to participate in the act - in fact that's almost the least of it. One of the delights of sex for sexuals is the rush of feeling desired, and asexuals, by definition, don't desire them. However loving, fun, kinky, or whatever the asexual could be, they'll never be able to; and sexuals can tell there's something 'off'. There's an energy, or focus, that's missing.

too many people don't understand this. I try to explain that "wanting sex" is not sexuality, and they don't understand. "desiring sex" is not sexuality either. those are some pretty critical things, but people who "just want sex" and "just desire sex" - whether or not they are ace - are certainly not "the common sexual" like is said SO MANY TIMES

off-topic rant asside. I actually know for a fact that this can be observed the other way round. as a grey/ace, when I have sex with a sexual person I am painfully aware of the level of emotions they experience during sex, and cannot fathom nor understand it or why they experience it all, and am honestly afraid and turned away by it. I am sure that their desire for me and/or my body is a part of that, but it is not just even that but also their own personal pleasure... and probably more than that. sex just is this whole new level for a sexual person, and even for me, a grey sexual of a certain nature, I just don't have anywhere close to that level of intimacy. all I get is some nice vibrations and a workout.

[binary suns]

Yeah, I feel like being asexual and thinking "pffttt... so what if people want sex, I'm sure once they meet me they'll totes stop caring about it as much because that's how awesome I am" is going to lead to a lot of heartbreak. Of course I realize that's not word-for-word what you said, Plex, but that's the general gist of it, I think. Because honestly, the world is full of sexuals. What about you is so amazing that a sexual would be willing to have a non-sexual relationship with my partner? For most of us, for better or worse, we can get pretty close to EXACTLY what we want in a partner. Putting up with no sex just because? Not many people are gonna take you up on that offer.

Ok, so I don't want this to seem weird or overdramatic, but this actually scares me, and I bet there are other asexuals who feel similarly. Like there's this whole layer of rules and desires and social mechanics out there that I'm largely blind to. And as an asexual, whether you want to or not, chances are you're going to find yourself in it one way or another. That's definitely a worry I have. I mean, what happens when you get into it and find more stuff you're blind to? How can I ever develop a proper understanding of what sex means to people in order to form healthier relationships with them?

if it helps at all... every human on earth is blind to things they don't personally experience. I had a friend who was a lovely caring friendly firend, well except for this huge blind spot... he didn't understand the fact that when he wins at a game and cheers and yata's and boasts and dances, the other person feels miserable and depressed. that kind of thing. he legitimately wants his friends to be happy, yet his behavior when playing with them would frequently step on their toes and frustrate them!

and that kind of thing is everywhere, for everyone. it isn't some huge scary oversight in the end of things... I mean it is an oversight and when comfronting it and realising we have a blind spot it is scary... so.... um...

hm.

well the point is... acknowledge that there is the blind spot, and try your best to notice the times when it matters and find ways to make up for the blind spot. and don't worry about having the blind spot.

myself I am autistic, or maybe I'm not so maybe I shouldn't say that with certainty, but what I do have is a failure to "mirror" social behaviors inside my head, something which is completely natural. so social expectations in general, take years and years for me to learn, where with most people they pick them all up by the time they're thirteen and don't even notice they've learned them all. that's pretty scary, but I accepted it and try my best to be polite in the ways that I know, and when I don't understand something know that there is no need to panic or blame or get angry or anything and just try my best to connect to the person even though I'm blundering all over.

I'm not sure if I ended up making a point there.... I hope my rambling helped some.