Jump to content

Can you Become Intersex?


Nico-Nico Friendo

Recommended Posts

Nico-Nico Friendo

I'm kind of scared that people are going to get all offended by this, but I want to question why things are as they are.

I thought of this while reading this thread and I wondered, "Hey, if a transperson can transition from male to female or female to male why can't they transition from male to intersex or female to intersex?"

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/139720-transitioning-to-intersex/

Most people say "Because it's offensive to intersex people!" or "Because intersex is a medical disorder!"

Hmm . . . Let's break down those assumptions, shall we?

So, intersexuality shows us that sex is not so obvious and clear-cut. Most people think there are only two sexes, male or female, but in reality there are all kinds of variations called collectively "intersex" in which one's sex does not neatly fit into the male/ female binary. So let's say we have "three" genders: male, female, intersex. For a transperson to transition to the first two is okay but the third is forbidden. Why? Because it's a 'medical disorder'? Well, it has been argued that being gay or asexual is some kind of medical disorder, too. Do all intersex people think they have a disorder or do they simply see themselves as having a sex that is neither male nor female? Is it because intersex people have trouble reproducing that it's considered a medical disorder? Some males and females have trouble with or can't reproduce either. Does that mean males and females are medical disorders? If a FtM or MtF transperson can't reproduce, is that a medical disorder? And some intersex people might have had the potential to reproduce but can't now because some surgeon removed some of their organs (gonads, genitals, etc.) when they were babies.

I struggle with how to identify myself as well. I do not think of myself as male or female, and I often think "Maybe this would be so much easier to explain if I were intersex." But if I were to transition, I could not identify as 'intersex' because that is 'offensive' to intersex people. Is it offensive to cis-males or cis-females when transpeople transition to his or her sex?

I don't get it. what am I? What is normal? What is a disorder? Why can't someone be intergender (or whatever) and transition to an intersex body? Can I call myself a hermaphrodite instead (since that's no longer used for intersex people) or would that be offensive, too?

Just something I've been pondering for a long time and wondering if anyone has any answers that make sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yah, its possible. Some want middleground genitals, others want mismatched tops and bottoms. Some drag queens get breast implants and some drag kings get breast removal. Some people also want nullification surgery.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Intersex IS a medical disorder.. The term you are looking for is "non-binary" meaning some mix of or neither male/female. People do transition to non-binary genders. Many people in these forums are varying degrees of non-binary.

Please adjust your terminology and start looking into "non-binary" identities and you'll start finding the answers you are looking for. It isn't uncommon, just not understood by the general population (it's hard enough for cis people to understand binary transgender issues to start with).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yah, its possible. Some want middleground genitals, others want mismatched tops and bottoms. Some drag queens get breast implants and some drag kings get breast removal. Some people also want nullification surgery.

Yeah but it's usually called "gender neutral", "androgynous" or other terms, not usually intersex. There are simply other terms, because (I believe) it's not only due to the history of the intersex community, but it's just highly unlikely that someone would actually transition to any of the physical statuses classified as "intersex" (google it, and you'll also see pictures), that go beyond just genitals.

Intersex IS a medical disorder.

Much of the intersex community is fighting against the stigma that comes with the word "disorder". They're different, not sick.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Intersex means between sex, so it would still be accurate on people who are not born that way. If anything, that logic means trans women/man aren't women/men.

Also, with just non-binary, while that would make my first comment more accurate (though i was just trying to mention a nifty fact), but the two (intersex and neulsex[?]) can be categorized as two different things, so the OP would also be getting comments on what they're not asking for.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

Intersex means between sex, so it would still be accurate on people who are not born that way. If anything, that logic means trans women/man aren't women/men.

Also, with just non-binary, while that would make my first comment more accurate (though i was just trying to mention a nifty fact), but the two (intersex and neulsex[?]) can be categorized as two different things, so the OP would also be getting comments on what they're not asking for.

Intersex doesn't mean androgynous, the OP is referring for being btw both sexes and this mean having an androgynous body, not an Intersex body, actual Intersex persons hates when androgynous people compare themselves with them.

Intersex is something you are born as and it's not a sex, it's a medical condition.

Androgynous is a sex, you can call it androgynous or non-binary.

Nullo is also an sex, Nullo means no genitals. They are also androgynous and nb.

Unisex is also an sex, it's also an synonymous to neutral bodied and to androgynous and to nb.

Eunuch is also an sex. Eunuchs are also androgynous and nb. Eunuch means a feminine bodied castrated male.

You can transition to any of those sexes I mentioned, if you want to, you can call yourself a non-binary transexual.

Intersex is also not rly a sex bc people either have a Y chromosome or not, if they have an Y, they're male, no Matter how different their bodies are. Also if they have only X chromosomes they are female.

I'm transitioning to androgynous anyway, you can PM me if you want. :) I hope I helped.

Hijra is also a term for not being neither fully male nor fully female, and it covers all those other sexes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
darknova42

Intersex means between sex, so it would still be accurate on people who are not born that way. If anything, that logic means trans women/man aren't women/men.

Also, with just non-binary, while that would make my first comment more accurate (though i was just trying to mention a nifty fact), but the two (intersex and neulsex[?]) can be categorized as two different things, so the OP would also be getting comments on what they're not asking for.

A woman who was born with XY chromosomes, a body that produces/produced male hormones, and had/has testes isn't always a "trans woman". There are intersex women who are born with something called "Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome" or AIS. If you look at things literally, then structurally their bodies are physiologically more similar to trans women than XX women. What I mean by this is that they both don't have ovaries, a cervix/womb, and both(if the trans woman has had bottom surgery) have vaginal cavities that need to be dilated. Not to forget the previously mentioned testies, XY chromosomes, and androgen(male hormones). I think it is important to note that someone who is intersex can also be transgender.

The important distinction, between someone who is intersex and someone who is transitioning to a non-binary gender, is transition.

On the one hand you have someone who's body has been that way since birth and on the other you have someone who is changing their body to align with their non-binary gender identity. There are people out there that if they're born intersex also identify as non-binary, maybe genderqueer or bigender or genderfluid etc. For the most part it's my understanding that they tend to be binary.

As someone who identifies as agender I can sympathize with where you're coming from. Before I figured anything out, I'd read some fiction with intersex characters. Intersex is something that, at the time, really struck a chord in me. Gender being something ambiguous or having an "excuse" to not be masculine or feminine appealed to me. Not only that, while I have no real need to transition, my ideal body type for myself would be some in-between state.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Nico-Nico Friendo

AVEN #1 fan:

So you are saying if someone is born looking completely female, has a vagina, etc. and yet has a Y chromosome (and testes, in some cases) is 'actually' male? Even a scientist would not agree with that. See here:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary

Chromosomes are not the final arbiter of sex.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

-E-R-R-O-R

So you are saying if someone is born looking completely female, has a vagina, etc. and yet has a Y chromosome (and testes, in some cases) is 'actually' male? Even a scientist would not agree with that. See here:https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary

Chromosomes are not the final arbiter of sex.

-E-R-R-O-R

So you are saying if someone is born looking completely female, has a vagina, etc. and yet has a Y chromosome (and testes, in some cases) is 'actually' male? Even a scientist would not agree with that. See here:https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-h-word/2015/feb/19/nature-sex-redefined-we-have-never-been-binary

Chromosomes are not the final arbiter of sex.

As my endocrinologist and my biology book from college told me:

Biological sex is based in chromosomes (genotype) and phenotype, so if a woman is born with XY (male) chromosomes, technically she was supposed to have been born a male despite her vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc. Stuff like this happens.

Her genotype would be XY (male)

While her phenotype (appearance, body) would be female.

If that woman likes being a woman or likes to be viewed as a woman, it comes to gender related subjects. That's why gender is more worth than sex.

Also you can identify as intergender, it's a synonymous for androgyne and is a free use term, just look at a dictionary, it has no official intersex restrictions, also terms like amalgagender are only for intersex use terms.

And oh well if you tell me what really gives someone a "sex", the genotype or the phenotype? Well the genotype (chromosomes) can't be changed, unlikely the phenotype , which can. So the genotype is like what makes a person develop as one sex. Trans people (binary or not) can change their phenotypes (bodies) to look like what they want, intersex persons can too.

The woman you mentioned would be male. And studies on intersex people and androgynous people are very out dated tbh.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Androgynous is a look. It means having characteristics (e.g. face, body shape, cloths) of what's associated with men and women, not primary and secondary sex characteristics like having breasts and male genitals or pecs and female genitals. That is intersex. Intersex is not one thing; it has many variations.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

Androgynous is a look. It means having characteristics (e.g. face, body shape, cloths) of what's associated with men and women, not primary and secondary sex characteristics like having breasts and male genitals or pecs and female genitals. That is intersex. Intersex is not one thing; it has many variations.

well, intersex persons have both male and female characteristics and so they're androgynous, but androgynous people aren't intersex. That's what I'm trying to say, but nobody can transition to intersex. It's a medical condition, not a sex.

Anyway I think that non-binary transexuals should be called "intersexuals." Not intersex.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, not all intersex people are androgynous. I'd guess most aren't.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

No, not all intersex people are androgynous. I'd guess most don't.

well their chromosomes, secondary characteristics (boobs, beard, etc.) And first characteristics (the sex organs) doesn't match the ones of a male or of a female, so if they have male and female characteristics, they're androgynous.

Now if they don't have any sex characteristic of any sex, they're neutral or unisex, but they still androgynous bc:

Androgynous = neither female nor male, usually has characteristics of both.

I think the problem is in what people call "androgynous." That's for my understanding.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

Now if we still have time: think about this, can a person have both a penis + scrotal bag and a vulva throughout plastic surgery?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Nico-Nico Friendo

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. One intersex man had a penis ("smaller than normal") and testes and found out later he had a vagina when it suddenly opened up when he was in his 30s? 40s? I don't know exactly how old he was, but it was as an adult. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, androgynous literally and dictionary wise means male-female like

Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't transition to become intersex because it's a genetic condition caused by a chromosomal change from the "standard" karyotype. Intersex folks' genitalia are ambiguous, they're often infertile and it can be connected to other chromosomal issues. Of course wanting to be intersex or pretending it's a gender identity is offensive to intersex people, because it's the same principle as Huntington's patients finding it offensive when they find out that someone wants to have the disease too. And quite frankly, it's daft. If someone actually wants to have a genetic condition, I'd first of all suggest they check to see if all their faculties are intact.

If someone wants to have ambiguous genitalia so no one knows if they're biologically male or female, I'd suggest finding a new word to describe it and stop calling it intersex.

As my endocrinologist and my biology book from college told me:
Biological sex is based in chromosomes (genotype) and phenotype, so if a woman is born with XY (male) chromosomes, technically she was supposed to have been born a male despite her vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc.


Nope. You can have all manner of different sex chromosomal combinations. There's no "supposed to be" anything.

Biological sex is determined by the presence or absence of the sry gene. This should technically always be part of the Y chromosome, and is what triggers "male development"; i.e. testes etc. The gene frequently undergoes recombination with the X chromosome and can also translocate. People have been documented as XX but because one arm of an X chromosome contains the sry gene, they develop into a biological male, and also someone can be XY but if the gene is lost during meiosis, they will develop into a biological female. Males can also develop properly if their sry gene is on their X chromosome. There's no way to tell how common this is because there's no way to tell without being karyotyped. Bodies are tricky - they find a way to survive unless the chromosomes are fucked up beyond recognition.

well their chromosomes, secondary characteristics (boobs, beard, etc.) And first characteristics (the sex organs) doesn't match the ones of a male or of a female, so if they have male and female characteristics, they're androgynous.
Now if they don't have any sex characteristic of any sex, they're neutral or unisex, but they still androgynous bc:

Androgynous = neither female nor male, usually has characteristics of both.

I think the problem is in what people call "androgynous." That's for my understanding.

Androgyny applies usually to the facial structure and the way they present, not their genitalia. If visually, their body and face isn't clearly male or female (be it by their own choice or naturally) then they could well be androgynous, but they're still biologically one or the other.

I'm facially androgynous; people usually have to glance at me again to figure out what I am thanks to their incessant need to be aware of who everyone is, but my body is, and always will be, biologically female.

People can't be unisex, because that means "suitable for both sexes"; that's why clothing is labelled as unisex, not people. If someone for whatever reason ever called me unisex, I'd probably punch them.

EDIT: didn't even see this bit.

Intersex persons hates when androgynous people compare themselves with them.


And isn't this what you did for your first, I don't know, ten threads you started here? Pretty sure you pissed off a lot of people when you said you wanted to be intersex.

Androgynous is a sex, you can call it androgynous or non-binary.
Nullo is also an sex, Nullo means no genitals. They are also androgynous and nb.
Unisex is also an sex, it's also an synonymous to neutral bodied and to androgynous and to nb.
Eunuch is also an sex. Eunuchs are also androgynous and nb. Eunuch means a feminine bodied castrated male.


None of these are sexes.

Intersex is also not rly a sex


So you think intersex isn't a sex, but "nullo" is? And eunuchs? Just because a guy's been castrated doesn't mean he's any less male. Intersex people will usually transition to either male or female, so that they can actually state what they are on their passport etc. I know half a dozen people away from AVEN who are actually intersex, and none of them want the world at large to know. None of them would want it on their documents because they just want to live their lives quietly without unnecessary attention regarding stuff that's frankly no one else's business.

Link to post
Share on other sites
CheekyStoat

Genetically I understand that a person can't become intersex but wanting a sex of both genitalia or ambiguous genitalia doesn't seem like something wrong to me. You have genticallyborn males, females, and intersex. You're allowed to transition (depending on your country of citizenship) to the first two but not the third? People STILL say that you can't become male or you can't become female because you weren't born that way so I have to ask why we're telling people they can't even identify as intersex?

As a trans person I ha

Of course wanting to be intersex or pretending it's a gender identity is offensive to intersex people, because it's the same principle as Huntington's patients finding it offensive when they find out that someone wants to have the disease too. And quite frankly, it's daft. If someone actually wants to have a genetic condition, I'd first of all suggest they check to see if all their faculties are intact.

I feel like "If someone actually wants to have a genetic condition, I'd first of all suggest they check to see if all their faculties are intact" is said to trans people all the time about wanting to transition or identify as anything outside the gender identity they were given at birth (I'm wording it this way for the intersex individuals who had theirs chosen for them).

If someone wants to have ambiguous genitalia so no one knows if they're biologically male or female, I'd suggest finding a new word to describe it and stop calling it intersex.

Again, I feel like this is why we have "transwomen" and "transmen" instead of just "women" and "men" because the identity doesn't match what you're born with you're not a "real" woman/man so you need to be called something else. I hope you're seeing the parallels I'm using and not wondering why I'm talking about trans people in a thread about intersex. I'm just trying to show that what's being said to people who do identify as intersex is similar to what's been said about people trying to transition to male/female. If you really need a new name for someone identifying as intersex then why not just call them transintersex? Personally I'm against that, but it's what everyone else is doing.

I know half a dozen people away from AVEN who are actually intersex, and none of them want the world at large to know. None of them would want it on their documents because they just want to live their lives quietly without unnecessary attention regarding stuff that's frankly no one else's business.

I can't say that I fully understand this, I was not born intersex nor do I identify that way but it does makes sense that they'd want to hide and not have it known that they're intersex because of how skewed gender is in society. How anything outside the current trends is seen as wrong. Some women find it offensive that non-women identify and want to transition to a woman (and vice versa). But I think that a huge shift needs to happen where people stop seeing people based on how they think people should be male or female. I'm sure that most people on this particular board would agree with that belief, so why are we in these threads telling people that they can't have a certain identity?

As a person going through gender reassignment therapy I think it's immensely hypocritical of me, someone who had to ask family and friends to please refer to me as something else, to then say "no, that one's just not allowed." I've taken the stance that no one should be able to tell a person what they can or can't identify as and I intend on sticking to it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As a person going through gender reassignment therapy I think it's immensely hypocritical of me, someone who had to ask family and friends to please refer to me as something else, to then say "no, that one's just not allowed." I've taken the stance that no one should be able to tell a person what they can or can't identify as and I intend on sticking to it.

I'm a trans guy myself, and trust me, this has absolutely nothing to do with identity policing.

Logically, you cannot have a genetic condition as a gender identity.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. One intersex man had a penis ("smaller than normal") and testes and found out later he had a vagina when it suddenly opened up when he was in his 30s? 40s? I don't know exactly how old he was, but it was as an adult. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

No, I mean a dyadic person getting a the external male and female gebitalias, this never happened.

Maybe with skin graft but I don't think It would look realistic enough.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan
I'm not exactly sure what you mean. One intersex man had a penis ("smaller than normal") and testes and found out later he had a vagina when it suddenly opened up when he was in his 30s? 40s? I don't know exactly how old he was, but it was as an adult. Is that the kind of thing you are talking about?

No, I mean a dyadic person getting a the external male and female gebitalias, this never happened.

Maybe with skin graft but I don't think

If someone wants to have ambiguous genitalia so no one knows if they're biologically male or female, I'd suggest finding a new word to describe it and stop calling it intersex.

As my endocrinologist and my biology book from college told me:

Biological sex is based in chromosomes (genotype) and phenotype, so if a woman is born with XY (male) chromosomes, technically she was supposed to have been born a male despite her vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc.

Nope. You can have all manner of different sex chromosomal combinations. There's no "supposed to be" anything.

Biological sex is determined by the presence or absence of the sry gene. This should technically always be part of the Y chromosome, and is what triggers "male development"; i.e. testes etc. The gene frequently undergoes recombination with the X chromosome and can also translocate. People have been documented as XX but because one arm of an X chromosome contains the sry gene, they develop into a biological male, and also someone can be XY but if the gene is lost during meiosis, they will develop into a biological female. Males can also develop properly if their sry gene is on their X chromosome. There's no way to tell how common this is because there's no way to tell without being karyotyped. Bodies are tricky - they find a way to survive unless the chromosomes are fucked up beyond recognition.

well their chromosomes, secondary characteristics (boobs, beard, etc.) And first characteristics (the sex organs) doesn't match the ones of a male or of a female, so if they have male and female characteristics, they're androgynous.

Now if they don't have any sex characteristic of any sex, they're neutral or unisex, but they still androgynous bc:

Androgynous = neither female nor male, usually has characteristics of both.

I think the problem is in what people call "androgynous." That's for my understanding.

Androgyny applies usually to the facial structure and the way they present, not their genitalia. If visually, their body and face isn't clearly male or female (be it by their own choice or naturally) then they could well be androgynous, but they're still biologically one or the other.

I'm facially androgynous; people usually have to glance at me again to figure out what I am thanks to their incessant need to be aware of who everyone is, but my body is, and always will be, biologically female.

People can't be unisex, because that means "suitable for both sexes"; that's why clothing is labelled as unisex, not people. If someone for whatever reason ever called me unisex, I'd probably punch them.

EDIT: didn't even see this bit.

Intersex persons hates when androgynous people compare themselves with them.

And isn't this what you did for your first, I don't know, ten threads you started here? Pretty sure you pissed off a lot of people when you said you wanted to be intersex.

Androgynous is a sex, you can call it androgynous or non-binary.

Nullo is also an sex, Nullo means no genitals. They are also androgynous and nb.

Unisex is also an sex, it's also an synonymous to neutral bodied and to androgynous and to nb.

Eunuch is also an sex. Eunuchs are also androgynous and nb. Eunuch means a feminine bodied castrated male.

None of these are sexes.

Intersex is also not rly a sex

So you think intersex isn't a sex, but "nullo" is? And eunuchs? Just because a guy's been castrated doesn't mean he's any less male. Intersex people will usually transition to either male or female, so that they can actually state what they are on their passport etc. I know half a dozen people away from AVEN who are actually intersex, and none of them want the world at large to know. None of them would want it on their documents because they just want to live their lives quietly without unnecessary attention regarding stuff that's frankly no one else's business.

Well, you can't deny eunuch as a sex, castrated males at an early age grow just like a kid with the XXY condition, countries like India recognize eunuchs as a sex, they have "eunuch" marked in their documents even though they were born male.

Eunuchs are like transsexuals when they are consented they are being castrated.

Also no matter how ambiguous an intersex person is, there's always a minimal sexual dismorfism that can hint what they would have been born as if they weren't intersex.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now if we still have time: think about this, can a person have both a penis + scrotal bag and a vulva throughout plastic surgery?

If you are starting from female, technically yes.. It had been talked about in another FtM forum with someone who didn't want a vaginectomy..

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

Now if we still have time: think about this, can a person have both a penis + scrotal bag and a vulva throughout plastic surgery?

If you are starting from female, technically yes.. It had been talked about in another FtM forum with someone who didn't want a vaginectomy..
Well i heard about that too, I also heard about giving a skin-graft vagina to someone starting from male, I think the labias and the scrotal bag would have the same material. Oh well the bad part is that the vagina wouldnt be as sensible and doesn't look like a real vagina. I still have no idea how the scrotal bag and the labias would look like. I think the vagina is fine if it's self-lubrificating and has mucous.

Now talking about from someone who starts from female, the urethra shall be moved to inside the enlarged clitoris, the testes would be made out of skin graft or maybe the labias?. I don't know if there has the need to use another skin-graft for a pênis. I also don't think it would be as real and sensible as a pênis. I think as long as there's erections, it's worth it.

I heard before about an intersex person who had a penis and scrotal bag but they had a fully working female reproductive system without a vagina, so the doctors had to give them a vaginoplasty so they could menstruate, I wonder what was the vagina made of.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see how your intersex gatekeeping is any different from going "ITF/MTFs don't have XX chromosomes or a womb so they're not actually women, or ITM/FTMs don't have XY chromosomes or balls/prostate so they're not actually men, so don't call them as such"

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

I don't see how your intersex gatekeeping is any different from going "MTFs don't have XX chromosomes or a womb so they're not actually women/FTMs don't have XY chromosomes or balls so they're not actually men, so don't call them as such"

Isn't it the same as saying a person who wants to transition so they have both sexes don't or will never have both sexes bc they were XX or XY or any other?

Afterall, transitioning to an male+female being is possible or not?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Now if we still have time: think about this, can a person have both a penis + scrotal bag and a vulva throughout plastic surgery?

If you are starting from female, technically yes.. It had been talked about in another FtM forum with someone who didn't want a vaginectomy..
Well i heard about that too, I also heard about giving a skin-graft vagina to someone starting from male, I think the labias and the scrotal bag would have the same material. Oh well the bad part is that the vagina wouldnt be as sensible and doesn't look like a real vagina. I still have no idea how the scrotal bag and the labias would look like. I think the vagina is fine if it's self-lubrificating and has mucous.

Now talking about from someone who starts from female, the urethra shall be moved to inside the enlarged clitoris, the testes would be made out of skin graft or maybe the labias?. I don't know if there has the need to use another skin-graft for a pênis. I also don't think it would be as real and sensible as a pênis. I think as long as there's erections, it's worth it.

I heard before about an intersex person who had a penis and scrotal bag but they had a fully working female reproductive system without a vagina, so the doctors had to give them a vaginoplasty so they could menstruate, I wonder what was the vagina made of.

In MtF bottom surgery, they usually invert the penis to make the vagina- hence why it's highly unlikely for them to be able to have both sets of genitalia.

With FtM the scrotum for testicular implants can be made from the labia or a skin graft. There are multiple types of bottom surgery: Metoidioplasty is where the clitoris is cut loose to hang more like a penis and the urethra is generally relocated. You can get an erection, but being able to have penetrative sex is highly unlikely due to size. To get a full penis, you have to have the full phalloplasty (where they use grafts from various areas of the body depending on the surgeon/method). Most phalloplasties require an implant for erection, but there is one where they use a graft from your underarm/side/back area and harvest some muscle from the back which allows for a somewhat naturally occurring erection (the only two surgeons currently doing this are in the Czech republic).

Heard about the last one- which is a HUGE highlight of what being intersex can really mean if you've got some of the more extreme issues (and their inability to release menstrual blood was making them sick). I'm not sure that they were given a full vagina- thought I read that it was just more or less an opening to release the blood (I might be wrong though...).

Link to post
Share on other sites
darknova42

I don't see how your intersex gatekeeping is any different from going "ITF/MTFs don't have XX chromosomes or a womb so they're not actually women, or ITM/FTMs don't have XY chromosomes or balls so they're not actually men, so don't call them as such"

This isn't about "gatekeeping". I don't think anyone here has actually said that someone can't transition to a sex that is non-binary. The issue is that the terminology you're using is problematic.

Intersex is a term used to describe a broad variety of genetic conditions that are characterized by ambiguous/indeterminate sex. Yes, the root words of this term literally mean something like "between sex". However, when people use the term "intersex" to describe someone, they're referring to someone with one of those genetic conditions.

Gender identity and Sex are related but not dependent upon one another. As I said before, there are intersex women who do not have XX chromosomes, a womb, or ovaries. That doesn't mean they aren't women.

If you want to get technical about it, then someone transitioning to another sex, regardless of whether or not that sex is binary, would probably still be referred to as a transexual. You could refer to it more specifically in order to convey the idea of intending to be a sex that is in between.

Not everyone would even agree on how to refer to a non-binary sex. There are a wide variety of different types of non-binary gender identities. How one person thinks of it would be different from another. One person could transition to what they think of as "neither" and another can transition to what they think of as "both". Coming up with a word that means "non-binary sex" is a little pointless when you can just say non-binary sex.

Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

Now if we still have time: think about this, can a person have both a penis + scrotal bag and a vulva throughout plastic surgery?

If you are starting from female, technically yes.. It had been talked about in another FtM forum with someone who didn't want a vaginectomy..
Well i heard about that too, I also heard about giving a skin-graft vagina to someone starting from male, I think the labias and the scrotal bag would have the same material. Oh well the bad part is that the vagina wouldnt be as sensible and doesn't look like a real vagina. I still have no idea how the scrotal bag and the labias would look like. I think the vagina is fine if it's self-lubrificating and has mucous.

Now talking about from someone who starts from female, the urethra shall be moved to inside the enlarged clitoris, the testes would be made out of skin graft or maybe the labias?. I don't know if there has the need to use another skin-graft for a pênis. I also don't think it would be as real and sensible as a pênis. I think as long as there's erections, it's worth it.

I heard before about an intersex person who had a penis and scrotal bag but they had a fully working female reproductive system without a vagina, so the doctors had to give them a vaginoplasty so they could menstruate, I wonder what was the vagina made of.

In MtF bottom surgery, they usually invert the penis to make the vagina- hence why it's highly unlikely for them to be able to have both sets of genitalia.

With FtM the scrotum for testicular implants can be made from the labia or a skin graft. There are multiple types of bottom surgery: Metoidioplasty is where the clitoris is cut loose to hang more like a penis and the urethra is generally relocated. You can get an erection, but being able to have penetrative sex is highly unlikely due to size. To get a full penis, you have to have the full phalloplasty (where they use grafts from various areas of the body depending on the surgeon/method). Most phalloplasties require an implant for erection, but there is one where they use a graft from your underarm/side/back area and harvest some muscle from the back which allows for a somewhat naturally occurring erection (the only two surgeons currently doing this are in the Czech republic).

Heard about the last one- which is a HUGE highlight of what being intersex can really mean if you've got some of the more extreme issues (and their inability to release menstrual blood was making them sick). I'm not sure that they were given a full vagina- thought I read that it was just more or less an opening to release the blood (I might be wrong though...).

MTF people can have vaginas from skin-graft, the most common technic is to shorten their intestines and get skin-graft from there bc the vagina looks even more realistic if it was made from a penis, bc the mucous.
Link to post
Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan

I don't see how your intersex gatekeeping is any different from going "ITF/MTFs don't have XX chromosomes or a womb so they're not actually women, or ITM/FTMs don't have XY chromosomes or balls so they're not actually men, so don't call them as such"

This isn't about "gatekeeping". I don't think anyone here has actually said that someone can't transition to a sex that is non-binary. The issue is that the terminology you're using is problematic.

Intersex is a term used to describe a broad variety of genetic conditions that are characterized by ambiguous/indeterminate sex. Yes, the root words of this term literally mean something like "between sex". However, when people use the term "intersex" to describe someone, they're referring to someone with one of those genetic conditions.

Gender identity and Sex are related but not dependent upon one another. As I said before, there are intersex women who do not have XX chromosomes, a womb, or ovaries. That doesn't mean they aren't women.

If you want to get technical about it, then someone transitioning to another sex, regardless of whether or not that sex is binary, would probably still be referred to as a transexual. You could refer to it more specifically in order to convey the idea of intending to be a sex that is in between.

Not everyone would even agree on how to refer to a non-binary sex. There are a wide variety of different types of non-binary gender identities. How one person thinks of it would be different from another. One person could transition to what they think of as "neither" and another can transition to what they think of as "both". Coming up with a word that means "non-binary sex" is a little pointless when you can just say non-binary sex.

What defines sex then? How can I know if my baby daughter is a girl or my baby son is a boy?
Link to post
Share on other sites
darknova42

What defines sex then? How can I know if my baby daughter is a girl or my baby son is a boy?

On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is female and 10 is male, then most people are closer to either 1 or 10. However, people who are intersex fall somewhere in between. They might be a 5, exactly in the middle, or they might be a 3 or a 7, closer to one sex than another.

How do you know if your baby is male? or female? Well, even the Olympics has trouble determining the sex of the athletes. Usually determining the sex involves examining many things. From what shape their body is to genetic testing.

How do you know if they're a boy? or a girl? You could raise them as either gender regardless of their sex. It has been done before. Even if you do that, they'll determine their own gender identity and, if they need to, transition to a different sex.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...