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diconstruction

Another question for sexuals!

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

He didn't say if you actively initiate sex for your own pleasure you're attracted. He said if you had sex with someone by definition you were attracted to them, and he excluded only asexuals. If he would like to retreat to a more defensible position, he is free to do so.

I was trying to understand how he possibly meant it because obviously there are (for example) millions of prostitutes who have sex with people and it's not like they're attracted to all their clients (or even to their money in some cases, I know I only did it because my ex made me, he took all the money I earned and I wasn't the only worker in that situation) or what about people in arranged marriages? I wonder how many of those people are not attracted to each other yet have sex because it's their duty or whatever. But yeah now that you said that I reread his initial comment and he did say ''by definition if you have sex with them, you were sexually attracted to them'' ..I had originally interpreted it to mean ''if you want to have sex with them for your own pleasure'' but yeah, it doesn't say that at all.

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Riiekka

I certainly have. I ended up in a relationship after my first husband died that should never have been. I was scared and alone and needed someone. My ex came into the picture and controlled everything which felt good at first...anyways! Point being, I was never sexually attracted to him. I needed someone = he was there = I grew up in a very conservative religion = I had many backwards ideas ingrained in my psyche = I gave him sex = I got pregnant 2 times = I was very unhappy = 4 years in his touch hurt me, not physically, but I would cry afterwards = I started drinking if I thought he was going to want sex = I finally got out!

I wonder if 4 years of that made me extra sensitive to only wanting to be touched by someone I love? My last relationship didn't go bad it just cooled off and one day I had to tell him I couldn't take his touch anymore...

btw, Telecaster68, the ability to perform sexually does not have to correspond to being sexually attracted to someone. I would close my eyes and imagine someone else, or something else sexual in order to get my juices flowing.....my ex DID NOT make that happen....

Whoa! You guys are making me think this through!!

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Sally

Have you ever had sex with someone that you were not sexually attracted to? If yes, what was the reason and how is that different from sleeping with someone you are sexually attracted to?

I had sex with husband and then partner because I wanted to please them and it was obvious they expected that a relationship came with sex.

I was never sexually attracted to them (or anyone) -- lifelong asexual. I have no idea what sex would have been like if I'd been sexually attracted, although I'm certain it would have been a hell of a lot easier and more pleasant.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Have you ever had sex with someone that you were not sexually attracted to? If yes, what was the reason and how is that different from sleeping with someone you are sexually attracted to?

I had sex with husband and then partner because I wanted to please them and it was obvious they expected that a relationship came with sex.I was never sexually attracted to them (or anyone) -- lifelong asexual. I have no idea what sex would have been like if I'd been sexually attracted, although I'm certain it would have been a hell of a lot easier and more pleasant.

Maybe it would have been! But I *do* experience "sexual attraction" (as in, my partner physically arouses me if I think about them, i think about/look at pictures of them when I masturbate, can only orgasm thinking about them etc) and that never made sex any easier or more enjoyable or pleasant for me :o ..I still don't want it and the idea of having sex with the person I am attracted to (or anyone else) actively bores me and turns me off, the same way imagining doing the dishes would turn me off. So yeah maybe even if you *did* find your partners "sexually appealing" (attractive in a way that causes you arousal) sex would have still been a drag if you were ace under that? Regardless of the attraction?

Though yeah totally for some if you innately desire sex AND feel sexual attraction for the person you're having it with, it makes it a lot more enjoyable (physically and emotionally)

That was just a random musing while I procrastinate about cleaning the house :P

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darknova42

I'm sticking with, in all those cases, the people were sufficiently attracted to that person to have sex with them at that moment. Not necessarily physically attracted, but something made them think 'yeah, I'd do that'.

Ok, I'll be a bit blunt and crude with my answer, so I apologize.

I'm *not* sexually attracted to my palms, but they and I *know* each other in the biblical sense.

I'm *not* attracted to sex toys, but again..

In case I wasn't clear, I masturbate. I'm not narcissistic and in love with myself. In fact I *don't* fancy myself. If I saw me, I wouldn't have sex with me.

Masturbating is pleasant for me to say the least. I'm sexual and sure I'd love to have sex with someone I'm sexually attracted to but sometimes the only interest on my part is just not doing it by myself.

It doesn't have to be about finding the person sexually attractive. It can be about being interested in what you feel (orgasms etc) when sex happens.

There are actually brothel-like places in Europe where literally it's just a woman's rear half sticking out a hole in the wall. Not to mention glory holes where a guy just sticks *it* through a hole in the wall. Who knows whats on the other end? a man? a woman? which orifice?

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gekkosan

So yeah maybe even if you *did* find your partners "sexually appealing" (attractive in a way that causes you arousal) sex would have still been a drag if you were ace under that? Regardless of the attraction?

From a male perspective, this pretty much describes me. I feel sexual attraction, but I never really had any desire to "stick it in". Of course I did stick it in multiple times, because that's what you're supposed to do and everyone around you is telling you how that is the greatest feeling in the world. For me, not so much. In a way I just don't feel comfortable sticking it into anywhere and I'm also not particularly comfortable if anyone other than me is playing with it. So sex for me was always kinda forced and hard work.

When I feel sexually attracted to someone it's like I'm drawn to them. I want to touch them, feel them, caress them, kiss them, smell them, or whatever, but I do not want my genitals to do anything with it, even though I might be aroused.

I'm *not* sexually attracted to my palms, but they and I *know* each other in the biblical sense.

This is a very good answer. Sex without sexual attraction is just a replacement for your hands. Whether it's a goat or an ugly prostitute it doesn't really matter. As long as it's warm, moist, and tight.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

So yeah maybe even if you *did* find your partners "sexually appealing" (attractive in a way that causes you arousal) sex would have still been a drag if you were ace under that? Regardless of the attraction?

From a male perspective, this pretty much describes me. I feel sexual attraction, but I never really had any desire to "stick it in". Of course I did stick it in multiple times, because that's what you're supposed to do and everyone around you is telling you how that is the greatest feeling in the world. For me, not so much. In a way I just don't feel comfortable sticking it into anywhere and I'm also not particularly comfortable if anyone other than me is playing with it. So sex for me was always kinda forced and hard work.

When I feel sexually attracted to someone it's like I'm drawn to them. I want to touch them, feel them, caress them, kiss them, smell them, or whatever, but I do not want my genitals to do anything with it, even though I might be aroused.

I have met so many aces and grey aces (more men than women, but women too!) who experience this, which is just another reason why the sexual attraction definition is so flawed.

By AVENs definition, we are technically fully sexual if we do happen to get aroused by the presence of another (be that their appearance, their smell, their laughter, whatever) and be drawn to them in a way as a result of that attraction, and find them ''attractive'' along with all that (I know I find them damn sexy if I experience this for them).. That is pretty much sexual attraction in a nutshell. Like, I actually want to be all over the person who I am attracted to in the way that causes me to feel like that.

So, by AVENs definition (if you ignore AVENs definition of sexual attraction, which most sexual people here say is incorrect) I am 100% hypser-sexual pan(ish)sexual whatever. But by a desire-based definition (the desire to actually connect sexually with others, to have sex) I am asexual.

I know for a fact that any sexual person on this site (or anywhere) would be utterly miserable in a relationship with me, because I just don't want sex and can't enjoy it even if I force myself to have it (I have tried) so I know I'll never compromise again, no matter how much they arouse me or how sexually attractive I find them. They just won't be getting sex, end of.

I go by grey-a due to the extent that I feel sexual attraction, but for all intents and purposes, I am 100% asexual because I have literally no desire to connect sexually with anyone, ever (and by connect sexually, I mean involving my genitals in any way, not just penetration) ..Give me a foot massage and I'd be super happy, seriously, I'll worship ya... Try to get my pants off and I'm walking out that door haha.

And in case anyone brings it up, no that's not celibacy (I have been ''accused'' of being celibate here before) ...Celibacy is wanting it but for whatever reason choosing (or being forced) not to have it. I don't want it. It's not a ''choice'' because that would imply I want it but for whatever reason am not having it. I literally don't want it. And nope, not repulsed at all, I am actually very sex positive.

.....Yet we have people here identifying as asexual who love having partnered sex, and do prefer it to masturbation (for sexual and/or emotional pleasure) yet because they don't get ''aroused by the presence of others'' they identify as asexual. Should we just throw away the ace label altogether because... it's obviously meaningless if there can be such a massive sexual disparity between one ace and another. It's the exact equivalent of one lesbian only wanting and enjoying sex with women, and another lesbian only wanting and enjoying sex with men.

Sorry, that turned into a small rant. I was just trying to emphasize that there are a lot of people who come here due to life long issues with massive sexual disparity in relationships with sexuals (due to just not innately wanting sex, ever) even though they do experience what would be called ''sexual attraction'' by many people.

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Tarfeather

I'm gonna derail this thread now: When a sexual prostitute has sex with a client, is that just like if an asexual person has sex with their partner?

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

I'm gonna derail this thread now: When a sexual prostitute has sex with a client, is that just like if an asexual person has sex with their partner?

Hmm well the sexual partner isn't paying the ace so the only reward for the ace is making their sexual partner happy.. At least when you're a prostitute you get financial compensation for it.

To me, a sexual prostitute having sex with a client is doing it for their own benefit (money) NOT for the benefit of the client. An asexual partner is ONLY doing it out of love, for the benefit of their partner, not for themselves. It's a sacrifice for the ace. It's a job for the prostitute (if they haven't been forced into the work of course).

I guess it feels the same physically (sort of) but the motivation behind it, and so the emotions, are very different? Though of course, you generally feel safe with a partner. It can be very, very scary being a prostitute because every time you have sex, anything (bad) could happen.

Some prostitutes aren't scared (most of the time) though and do actually feel attraction towards some of their clients, and do actually enjoy the sex sometimes with or without the attraction.

There would be some circumstances where the two experiences would be quite similar I guess? (minus the motivation behind the sex which is obviously very different)

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Skullery Maid

Telecaster! Are you kidding me with this? You think that if someone has sex, they're necessarily, de facto attracted to that person? How on earth could you possibly think that?

Pan's right... I've personally had sex with people I wasn't at all attracted to, just to do it. I have been attracted to some of the guys I've slept with, but not all... probably not most, tbh. And not all of the women either, actually. I find sex to have its own benefits regardless of whether attraction is involved in it. I like to shortcut it by saying I have a general sort of... desire for sex that exists outside of any specific person.

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gekkosan

So yeah maybe even if you *did* find your partners "sexually appealing" (attractive in a way that causes you arousal) sex would have still been a drag if you were ace under that? Regardless of the attraction?

From a male perspective, this pretty much describes me. I feel sexual attraction, but I never really had any desire to "stick it in". Of course I did stick it in multiple times, because that's what you're supposed to do and everyone around you is telling you how that is the greatest feeling in the world. For me, not so much. In a way I just don't feel comfortable sticking it into anywhere and I'm also not particularly comfortable if anyone other than me is playing with it. So sex for me was always kinda forced and hard work.

When I feel sexually attracted to someone it's like I'm drawn to them. I want to touch them, feel them, caress them, kiss them, smell them, or whatever, but I do not want my genitals to do anything with it, even though I might be aroused.

I have met so many aces and grey aces (more men than women, but women too!) who experience this, which is just another reason why the sexual attraction definition is so flawed.

By AVENs definition, we are technically fully sexual if we do happen to get aroused by the presence of another (be that their appearance, their smell, their laughter, whatever) and be drawn to them in a way as a result of that attraction, and find them ''attractive'' along with all that (I know I find them damn sexy if I experience this for them).. That is pretty much sexual attraction in a nutshell. Like, I actually want to be all over the person who I am attracted to in the way that causes me to feel like that.

So, by AVENs definition (if you ignore AVENs definition of sexual attraction, which most sexual people here say is incorrect) I am 100% hypser-sexual pan(ish)sexual whatever. But by a desire-based definition (the desire to actually connect sexually with others, to have sex) I am asexual.

I know for a fact that any sexual person on this site (or anywhere) would be utterly miserable in a relationship with me, because I just don't want sex and can't enjoy it even if I force myself to have it (I have tried) so I know I'll never compromise again, no matter how much they arouse me or how sexually attractive I find them. They just won't be getting sex, end of.

I go by grey-a due to the extent that I feel sexual attraction, but for all intents and purposes, I am 100% asexual because I have literally no desire to connect sexually with anyone, ever (and by connect sexually, I mean involving my genitals in any way, not just penetration) ..Give me a foot massage and I'd be super happy, seriously, I'll worship ya... Try to get my pants off and I'm walking out that door haha.

And in case anyone brings it up, no that's not celibacy (I have been ''accused'' of being celibate here before) ...Celibacy is wanting it but for whatever reason choosing (or being forced) not to have it. I don't want it. It's not a ''choice'' because that would imply I want it but for whatever reason am not having it. I literally don't want it. And nope, not repulsed at all, I am actually very sex positive.

.....Yet we have people here identifying as asexual who love having partnered sex, and do prefer it to masturbation (for sexual and/or emotional pleasure) yet because they don't get ''aroused by the presence of others'' they identify as asexual. Should we just throw away the ace label altogether because... it's obviously meaningless if there can be such a massive sexual disparity between one ace and another. It's the exact equivalent of one lesbian only wanting and enjoying sex with women, and another lesbian only wanting and enjoying sex with men.

Sorry, that turned into a small rant. I was just trying to emphasize that there are a lot of people who come here due to life long issues with massive sexual disparity in relationships with sexuals (due to just not innately wanting sex, ever) even though they do experience what would be called ''sexual attraction'' by many people.

I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say that it feels very nice to be among people who understand you. That's all, move along now.

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Tarfeather

Telecaster! Are you kidding me with this? You think that if someone has sex, they're necessarily, de facto attracted to that person? How on earth could you possibly think that?

Pan's right... I've personally had sex with people I wasn't at all attracted to, just to do it. I have been attracted to some of the guys I've slept with, but not all... probably not most, tbh. And not all of the women either, actually. I find sex to have its own benefits regardless of whether attraction is involved in it. I like to shortcut it by saying I have a general sort of... desire for sex that exists outside of any specific person.

Attraction isn't necessary, but arousal is (at least if you want to get anything out of it). So that begs the question, if the arousal isn't based on attraction, what is it based on?

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Skullery Maid

Telecaster! Are you kidding me with this? You think that if someone has sex, they're necessarily, de facto attracted to that person? How on earth could you possibly think that?

Pan's right... I've personally had sex with people I wasn't at all attracted to, just to do it. I have been attracted to some of the guys I've slept with, but not all... probably not most, tbh. And not all of the women either, actually. I find sex to have its own benefits regardless of whether attraction is involved in it. I like to shortcut it by saying I have a general sort of... desire for sex that exists outside of any specific person.

Attraction isn't necessary, but arousal is (at least if you want to get anything out of it). So that begs the question, if the arousal isn't based on attraction, what is it based on?

Actually, I'm female so arousal isn't necessary.

In any case, I think one can be stoked to be getting sexual pleasure without it being based off attraction to the other person. You really can look at other people like tools. You're not attracted to a vibrator, right? But still able to have sex with it? Same idea.

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darknova42
Attraction isn't necessary, but arousal is (at least if you want to get anything out of it). So that begs the question, if the arousal isn't based on attraction, what is it based on?

Ok. So from the perspective of someone who has male bits;

Some times for absolutely *no* reason at all *that* is.. well "awake and ready for action" regardless of whether I'm aroused or horny. A physiological function. Maybe because its a blood flow thing? or maybe its rubbed against my clothes?

Some times I'm "in the mood" and *that* isn't on the same page as I am. Like it isn't paying attention or is distracted. All it takes is a little.. manual stimulation to jump start things. Physiologically my body responds to the stimulus.

I haven't thought about this in too much depth. Since for me it just is. I suppose that arousal can be incited by the idea of sex in general. Or the possibility/opportunity to have sex.

It isn't a "which was first the chicken or the egg?" kind of thing. One can provoke the other.

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Busrider

It was a ****ed up day; I hit the wrong bar in bad need of a beer, got hooked up by a couple and was sufficiently curious about sex to go ahead. - One of them was maybe somewhat attractive and the other just "part of the package".

For me personally the difference is that I can't play the active part with people I am not attracted to.

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WhenSummersGone

I think anyone can have sex if they decide to have it for one reason or another. For me while experimenting I was curious, bored or just trying to get into it which didn't work. I wasn't into most of my partners in any way. Having that emotional connection is how I desire sex the most.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Attraction isn't necessary, but arousal is (at least if you want to get anything out of it). So that begs the question, if the arousal isn't based on attraction, what is it based on?

Well studies have shown some rape victims (honestly can't remember the stats sorry) have orgasmsd, some even multiple times, during an attack (even if that's by a stranger who dragged them off the street) and pedophiles sometimes trick young kids into thinking what's happening "fun and okay" by making the kid experience sexual pleasure and orgasm without hurting the child (physically anyway) Also as mentioned before, there are glory holes where the penis just sticks out the hole haha you can't see what's on the other side :p So I guess arousal can be based on any number of things depending on the person, as attraction obviously isn't present in practically all these cases. I know I was with a straight girl one time who was only having lesbian sex to impress a guy, and she wasn't ''into'' me (we didn't even like each other that much haha) but I was really surprised at how aroused she got from me stimulating her erogenous zones, and how much she enjoyed the stimulation etc.. she definitely wasn't faking she just really enjoyed and orgasmed etc, just from having her right ''zones'' stimulated. So sometimes I think it just comes down to the person being willing, and doing the right things to their body to get them aroused?

Actually, I'm female so arousal isn't necessary.

And of course a man can have sex without arousal too!! You just stick it up his butt :lol: I get disappointed when I watch gay porn (or straight strap-on porn) and the guy getting drilled isn't hard :lol:

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Skullery Maid

And of course a man can have sex without arousal too!! You just stick it up his butt :lol: I get disappointed when I watch gay porn (or straight strap-on porn) and the guy getting drilled isn't hard :lol:

OMG me too!!! I feel like it's fake and it makes me sad so I have to switch to something far more disgusting. :D (I jest. Sort of.)

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

And of course a man can have sex without arousal too!! You just stick it up his butt :lol: I get disappointed when I watch gay porn (or straight strap-on porn) and the guy getting drilled isn't hard :lol:

OMG me too!!! I feel like it's fake and it makes me sad so I have to switch to something far more disgusting. :D (I jest. Sort of.)

It makes me sad too!! so I switch to a gay butt-sex vid where the guy IS hard.. or likewise, something even more ''disgusting'' (as in good disgusting, not bad) hehe..

I don't jest.. not right now anyway :ph34r:

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Tarfeather

Well studies have shown some rape victims (honestly can't remember the stats sorry) have orgasmsd, some even multiple times, during an attack (even if that's by a stranger who dragged them off the street) and pedophiles sometimes trick young kids into thinking what's happening "fun and okay" by making the kid experience sexual pleasure and orgasm without hurting the child (physically anyway) Also as mentioned before, there are glory holes where the penis just sticks out the hole haha you can't see what's on the other side :P So I guess arousal can be based on any number of things depending on the person, as attraction obviously isn't present in practically all these cases. I know I was with a straight girl one time who was only having lesbian sex to impress a guy, and she wasn't ''into'' me (we didn't even like each other that much haha) but I was really surprised at how aroused she got from me stimulating her erogenous zones, and how much she enjoyed the stimulation etc.. she definitely wasn't faking she just really enjoyed and orgasmed etc, just from having her right ''zones'' stimulated. So sometimes I think it just comes down to the person being willing, and doing the right things to their body to get them aroused?

Look, I don't claim to have any idea how this stuff works. But in my thread where I talked about my partner not being aroused, everyone seemed to try to pin it on the asexuality and resulting lack of attraction. And now what you say seems to be claiming the opposite.

I only really know my own experience, and my own experience is that I need to fantasize about someone attractive in order to get aroused in a way that it actually feels good. I have no idea if this is true in general.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
Look, I don't claim to have any idea how this stuff works. But in my thread where I talked about my partner not being aroused, everyone seemed to try to pin it on the asexuality and resulting lack of attraction. And now what you say seems to be claiming the opposite.

I only really know my own experience, and my own experience is that I need to fantasize about someone attractive in order to get aroused in a way that it actually feels good. I have no idea if this is true in general.

Well I didn't pin it on her lack of attraction I don't think?. I specifically said some women need to be ''warmed up''' in the right way (by stimulating their mental and physical erogenous zones)..some can't just get aroused willy-nilly no matter how attractive they find you. Sometimes it takes years of having unsatisfying, boring sex before a woman meets someone who knows how to ''foreplay'' properly. Is that the same thread? And I don't think I would have said ''oh that's because she lacks attraction, as she's ace'' because some aces DO experience attraction, yet still don't want or enjoy sex. For me personally, it is IMPOSSIBLE to stimulate me in a way that will make me aroused. Yes I do have to be attracted to someone to get aroused by them.. but that person could stimulate me all day and I wouldn't get aroused, I'd get annoyed and probably kick them for even trying haha. Also, just because thinking about them (or looking at pics) can and does arouse me, doesn't mean I could enjoy sex with them. Also, I define asexuality as a lack of desire for sex, not by attraction - so if I was to say her lack of arousal was caused by her asexuality, Id word it ''because she doesn't want sex'' not because she's not attracted to you (HOWEVER, I wouldn't say that anyway, because I know I can not want sex and still get aroused.. My arousal just doesn't lead me to wanting sex)

HOWEVER, you partner is one woman, and her underlying asexuality (and possible lack of libido?) probably/possibly causes her lack of arousal for her personally (I mean, I don't know her.. there are all sorts of things that could cause it!) but that's only one woman, and you're only one man. I am a different female-bodied person, Skulls is a different female-bodied person from me and your girlfriend, my ex is a different male-bodied person from you.. Everyone is different. Sure for you, that's how it is, but for others it's different (and there will be those who experience it exactly like you do too)

Anyway all that aside, that thread was about YOUR girlfriend, not a different woman. I explained what I believed your girlfriends lack of arousal was (I think?) and I know I wouldn't have linked it to her ''lack of attraction''.. Because I just know for a fact that there are people who can get aroused enough to happily engage in sex without being attracted to the person they're doing it with.

I'm not arguing with you, was just trying to explain what I know from my own experience and from what I have read and learned from other people. I don't see how I was claiming the opposite to anything though? :o

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Float On

So yeah maybe even if you *did* find your partners "sexually appealing" (attractive in a way that causes you arousal) sex would have still been a drag if you were ace under that? Regardless of the attraction?

From a male perspective, this pretty much describes me. I feel sexual attraction, but I never really had any desire to "stick it in". Of course I did stick it in multiple times, because that's what you're supposed to do and everyone around you is telling you how that is the greatest feeling in the world. For me, not so much. In a way I just don't feel comfortable sticking it into anywhere and I'm also not particularly comfortable if anyone other than me is playing with it. So sex for me was always kinda forced and hard work.

When I feel sexually attracted to someone it's like I'm drawn to them. I want to touch them, feel them, caress them, kiss them, smell them, or whatever, but I do not want my genitals to do anything with it, even though I might be aroused.

I'm *not* sexually attracted to my palms, but they and I *know* each other in the biblical sense.

This is a very good answer. Sex without sexual attraction is just a replacement for your hands. Whether it's a goat or an ugly prostitute it doesn't really matter. As long as it's warm, moist, and tight.

yeah I'm pretty much on your page. when sexual attraction is reliant on a desire for sex, then it's not for me. but I experience attraction that feels "sexual" to me, so it's like... if this isn't sexual attraction then what is? but even in aven and outside it, there's this belief that attraction means you have to desire the person sexually or as a partner or whatever. but I just don't have that at all. I like being attracted to people and then just staying where I am, neutral and removed and reserved.

though I haven't felt that way in a while, attracted. of course, I've not been getting out all that much...

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Float On

ignore this post.

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Float On

And of course a man can have sex without arousal too!! You just stick it up his butt :lol: I get disappointed when I watch gay porn (or straight strap-on porn) and the guy getting drilled isn't hard :lol:

OMG me too!!! I feel like it's fake and it makes me sad so I have to switch to something far more disgusting. :D (I jest. Sort of.)

dear skullery maid. (and everyone else too)

I may not be male, but I do have a male body. and as a male-bodied individual, I feel very compelled to educate you of the following:

a male can be aroused without an erection

a male can have an erection and not be aroused.

sexual arousal, and "physical arousal" are not the exact same thing, and do not always overlap. personally speaking, this is actually quite frequent for me.

please understand these things are possible.

sincerely,

-swankypants.

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Salted Karamel

As a demisexual, I’ve had sex with plenty of people I wasn’t attracted to— back when I thought sexual attraction was your definition, OP, (Can I tolerate the idea of having sex with this person and force myself to go through with it? Go with pursuing it even? Yes? Then I must be sexually attracted to said person!) instead of, you know, actual attraction.

But I have to wonder, if you think that the act of having sex with a person automatically equates to sexual attraction, why ask sexuals only? By your definition, isn’t anyone who has ever willingly had sex a de facto allosexual?

I'm sticking with, in all those cases, the people were sufficiently attracted to that person to have sex with them at that moment. Not necessarily physically attracted, but something made them think 'yeah, I'd do that'.

Ok, I'll be a bit blunt and crude with my answer, so I apologize.

I'm *not* sexually attracted to my palms, but they and I *know* each other in the biblical sense.

I'm *not* attracted to sex toys, but again..

In case I wasn't clear, I masturbate. I'm not narcissistic and in love with myself. In fact I *don't* fancy myself. If I saw me, I wouldn't have sex with me.

Masturbating is pleasant for me to say the least. I'm sexual and sure I'd love to have sex with someone I'm sexually attracted to but sometimes the only interest on my part is just not doing it by myself.

It doesn't have to be about finding the person sexually attractive. It can be about being interested in what you feel (orgasms etc) when sex happens.

There are actually brothel-like places in Europe where literally it's just a woman's rear half sticking out a hole in the wall. Not to mention glory holes where a guy just sticks *it* through a hole in the wall. Who knows whats on the other end? a man? a woman? which orifice?

This is a super good point. Sometimes having sex with another person is just masturbating using someone else’s body. So many times I would try to pretend my partner wasn’t there, dulling my senses with alcohol and drugs just so I could go through with it and feel normal. Are you going to try to tell me that was attraction?

I have met so many aces and grey aces (more men than women, but women too!) who experience this, which is just another reason why the sexual attraction definition is so flawed.

By AVENs definition, we are technically fully sexual if we do happen to get aroused by the presence of another (be that their appearance, their smell, their laughter, whatever) and be drawn to them in a way as a result of that attraction, and find them ''attractive'' along with all that (I know I find them damn sexy if I experience this for them).. That is pretty much sexual attraction in a nutshell. Like, I actually want to be all over the person who I am attracted to in the way that causes me to feel like that.

So, by AVENs definition (if you ignore AVENs definition of sexual attraction, which most sexual people here say is incorrect) I am 100% hypser-sexual pan(ish)sexual whatever. But by a desire-based definition (the desire to actually connect sexually with others, to have sex) I am asexual.

I know for a fact that any sexual person on this site (or anywhere) would be utterly miserable in a relationship with me, because I just don't want sex and can't enjoy it even if I force myself to have it (I have tried) so I know I'll never compromise again, no matter how much they arouse me or how sexually attractive I find them. They just won't be getting sex, end of.

I go by grey-a due to the extent that I feel sexual attraction, but for all intents and purposes, I am 100% asexual because I have literally no desire to connect sexually with anyone, ever (and by connect sexually, I mean involving my genitals in any way, not just penetration) ..Give me a foot massage and I'd be super happy, seriously, I'll worship ya... Try to get my pants off and I'm walking out that door haha.

And in case anyone brings it up, no that's not celibacy (I have been ''accused'' of being celibate here before) ...Celibacy is wanting it but for whatever reason choosing (or being forced) not to have it. I don't want it. It's not a ''choice'' because that would imply I want it but for whatever reason am not having it. I literally don't want it. And nope, not repulsed at all, I am actually very sex positive.

.....Yet we have people here identifying as asexual who love having partnered sex, and do prefer it to masturbation (for sexual and/or emotional pleasure) yet because they don't get ''aroused by the presence of others'' they identify as asexual. Should we just throw away the ace label altogether because... it's obviously meaningless if there can be such a massive sexual disparity between one ace and another. It's the exact equivalent of one lesbian only wanting and enjoying sex with women, and another lesbian only wanting and enjoying sex with men.

Sorry, that turned into a small rant. I was just trying to emphasize that there are a lot of people who come here due to life long issues with massive sexual disparity in relationships with sexuals (due to just not innately wanting sex, ever) even though they do experience what would be called ''sexual attraction'' by many people.

So one camp is defining the lack of attraction despite desire to have sex as asexuality, and the other camp is defining the presence of attraction but lack of desire to have sex as asexuality.

How about instead of both camps trying to claim that the other is actually sexual in order to strengthen their own place in the “asexuality” definition…both camps just admit that they're both different kinds of asexuals?

No one needs to be voted off ace island here... Plenty of room for all.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Yes because of course I'm just as asexual as someone who loves having sex.. same as the rest of the aces here of course.

Oh wait...

Yeah I'll reply when I'm sober

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Salted Karamel

Yes because of course I'm just as asexual as someone who loves having sex.. same as the rest of the aces here of course.

Oh wait...

Yeah I'll reply when I'm sober

....then I think I might be done with AVEN..

Acknowledging that someone else who experiences asexuality slightly differently than you do is also asexual does not invalidate your asexuality. You do not need to invalidate the asexuality of others in order to validate your own.

You want to change the definition of asexuality so that your experience fits into it? Fine. I propose the handy catch-all conjunction "and/or." Observe:

Asexuality is the lack of sexual attraction and/or the lack of innate desire for partnered sex.

Really, you don't need to push others out just to make room for yourself.

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Mysticus Insanus

So one camp is defining the lack of attraction despite desire to have sex as asexuality, and the other camp is defining the presence of attraction but lack of desire to have sex as asexuality.

How about instead of both camps trying to claim that the other is actually sexual in order to strengthen their own place in the “asexuality” definition…both camps just admit that they're both different kinds of asexuals?

No one needs to be voted off ace island here... Plenty of room for all.

Only if we're fine with accepting that we really are a club of special snowflakes here, and this "asexuality" thing isn't an actual real-world concept (let alone a legitimate orientation) that all these so-called "aces" would actually have in common.

Whatever the definition of asexuality is supposed to be, it needs to be strict enough to exclude people who don't fit it, otherwise it's worthless. If we don't "vote people off ace island" out of some PC super-inclusivity ideal, we're ruining asexual education and visibility. (And you bet that I consider this to be a major problem of AVEN - see my signature.)

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Jade Cross

And of course a man can have sex without arousal too!! You just stick it up his butt :lol: I get disappointed when I watch gay porn (or straight strap-on porn) and the guy getting drilled isn't hard :lol:

OMG me too!!! I feel like it's fake and it makes me sad so I have to switch to something far more disgusting. :D (I jest. Sort of.)

Isnt porn supposed to be fake?

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Tarfeather

And of course a man can have sex without arousal too!! You just stick it up his butt :lol: I get disappointed when I watch gay porn (or straight strap-on porn) and the guy getting drilled isn't hard :lol:

OMG me too!!! I feel like it's fake and it makes me sad so I have to switch to something far more disgusting. :D (I jest. Sort of.)

Isnt porn supposed to be fake?

Don't know. I'd prefer porn that isn't fake, but you're right that the overwhelming majority of it seems to be pretty fake. No idea why that is, though. Maybe a lot of people have a fetish for fakeness?

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