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What counts as sexual desire?


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Philip027

Chiming in to say that I was on monthly T shots for some time and they did nothing for me, despite all the warnings I got on how I would suddenly experience a spike in sex drive.

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Tarfeather

however, hormone boosting does increase energy and sex drive,

[...]

there is very little correlation however between hormone level and sex drive.

Girl, what?

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Philip027

Well, by "nothing" I meant that it had no effects that I could perceive. I have no idea if anything was affected behind the scenes, but if it has it's done a pretty good job at staying hidden so far.

The only reason I was on the shots to begin with was because my moods were tumultuous at the time, and I had my hormones tested and I was found to have several imbalances, the most prominent being low testosterone. After long enough of feeling no different though, as well as learning that it would have to be a constant thing for the rest of my life (I was told the effects only last as long as the treatment is maintained, meaning my low T levels would not be eventually "fixed" by these shots), I decided to just call it quits. If I had actually seen some sort of benefit to getting stabbed every month I might have carried on with it, but needless to say I wasn't very enthusiastic about it as things were.

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damage_case

I'm not trying to be elitist or trying to exclude anyone from using the label asexual, I'm just trying to understand sexual desire a bit better.

There's people on here saying they want sex, but don't desire it. They want it for different reasons like to make a partner happy, just to try it out, to have kids etcetera. These are all external reasons. I see why they are not the same as actually desiring sex.

But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

I would like some input from sexuals and from sex-favourable aces here. Please enlighten me :)

Yeah I dont get a lot of it. But to shine a light on some of that... the desire to have sex with some special someone is different from desire to relieve oneself. There are many asexuals who masturbate regularly... so technically they are just getting rid of that surge of feelings of sex related fluids making them not sleep or making them cranky etc.

Actual sexual desire is probably someone seeing a hot chick and saying "damn id like to bang that"... or a woman shy and coy checking out a guy working out and imagining what would it be like if he was on top of her.

Asexuals never really imagine/hope for any sexual encounters with anyone. Those who want to try it out are probably the ones that are introverts or havent done it often as much as society norms are or are virgins... they just want to get rid of that tag.

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Telecaster68

Laurann -

It's all those things, in different combinations, at different times.

Actual sexual desire is probably someone seeing a hot chick and saying "damn id like to bang that"... or a woman shy and coy checking out a guy working out and imagining what would it be like if he was on top of her.

Without getting into AVEN's hall of mirrors.... that's one version. Another is actually wanting to have sex with someone, often with a feeling of urgency, though you don't necessarily do anything about it, and the feeling can pass quickly. Or not. Others would say what you're describing is libido as experienced by sexuals, as opposed to how it's experience by asexuals.

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damage_case

Laurann -

It's all those things, in different combinations, at different times.

Actual sexual desire is probably someone seeing a hot chick and saying "damn id like to bang that"... or a woman shy and coy checking out a guy working out and imagining what would it be like if he was on top of her.

Without getting into AVEN's hall of mirrors.... that's one version. Another is actually wanting to have sex with someone, often with a feeling of urgency, though you don't necessarily do anything about it, and the feeling can pass quickly. Or not. Others would say what you're describing is libido as experienced by sexuals, as opposed to how it's experience by asexuals.

Yeah.. I dont know how asexuals imagine sex with a person... dont know that...

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Labels serve the individual to help them identify who they are. Labels have thier uses, they are like a first-step for many people who realise they are different from what everyone assumes they are. But the problem with a label is it doesn't tell everyone else much.

A person who who identifies as asexual might like kissing, the next person might not want to be touched at all ever. A person who is sexual seems less likely to label themselves as that because, in my experience, they blindly expect everyone else to also like or be interested in sex. But if a person does want sex it still doesn't tell you much, maybe they like oral sex or maybe they don't.

The problem aint the label it's the fact that the label seems to make people think there's no need for further discussion.

The asexual label helped me discover asexuality exists and for that I am eternally grateful. I live in a society that seems obsessed with sex and I was avoiding building any kind of relationship with a man because I blindly assumed all men want sex when I don't. I stumbled across the term while trying search for information and once I found it a whole community I never knew existed has opened up and I discovered I am far from alone. Thank you to AVEN for that!

But now I am in a relationship with another asexual, the label doesn't serve me anymore, we have to discover each other. I made it clear from the start that physical contact and affection is important to me because it was clear from this forum that a lot of people are against physical contact.

If I describe myself without using a label I would say: I don't want to have sex because it has always felt physically uncomfortable. Any desire that I may have once had is dead but I'll happily have sex now for the practical purposes of producing some sprogs!

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binary suns

however, hormone boosting does increase energy and sex drive,

[...]

there is very little correlation however between hormone level and sex drive.

Girl, what?

generally speaking, people who complain of low sex drive do have lower than average levels, however hormone levels are a terrible predictor of libido. the thing is, that someone with a really low level might be completely comfortable with an active libido even though someone else with the same level has trouble with their libido, and someone with average level might have trouble with their "low" libido while someone else has a very health sex life based off their active libido.

the only correlation between libido and hormone levels is that people who complain of problematic libido tend to have below average hormone levels. but there is no specific level of hormones that predicts low libido.

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Tarfeather

You said hormone boosting increases sex drive. Wouldn't that imply a correlation between hormone levels and sex drive?

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Fire & Rain

Good point, OP.

I have a hard time understanding that too. I get no intimacy out of having sex. I don't feel closer to my partner by having sex with them. When they say "I love you" in the middle of it, I'm like "ok. It's that good, huh?" :D Gosh, I sound mean but that's how I feel. Sex is an utterly meaningless act from my point of view. It's physically enjoyable, yes. So is masturbation which is faster and more convenient. I'm glad that my partner enjoys sex a lot though but it's not a way I want to bond with someone and it's also not the way I want to achieve sexual release. I guess that's what differentiates sexuals and asexual in my opinion. Sexuals innately desire and prefer sexual intimacy and sexual release through having sex.

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nanogretchen4

There is a correlation, yes, just not a strong enough one that you can predict libido from hormone levels. If someone has really unusually low hormone levels and is unhappy with their low libido, HRT has a reasonable chance of helping but there's no guarantee. There are a lot of other things that could be affecting someone's libido. There are physical issues like blood flow problems, nerve damage, sensory issues, or problems with chemical reception in the brain, especially if the patient is on SSRI's. There are psychological issues such as anxiety, depression, repulsion, guilt or shame, PTSD, or issues in the current relationship. If any of these other issues are present hormones probably won't have much effect. Also, an asexual won't want partnered sex no matter how high their libido, so hormones definitely wouldn't change that. However, if someone already has a somewhat average libido, which suggests that there are no other major issues, it's more likely that increased hormone levels will increase libido. So most females of childbearing age are getting a hormone related libido spike once or twice a month, and people in their teens and early twenties usually have hormonally elevated libidos.

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binary suns

You said hormone boosting increases sex drive. Wouldn't that imply a correlation between hormone levels and sex drive?

it does have that implication. but the correlation is very inconsistent and unreliable, and as such hormone levels are not a reliable predictor of sex drive. it varies too greatly between individuals.

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I come very late to this, I'm sorry, but rl got busy.

What would happen if we just eliminated all labels.

AVEN would implode.

I disagree. Because AVEN is about more than a label. AVEN is about navigating the world without what 99% of the inhabitants experience.

As far as I can tell, the whole 'types of attraction' thing comes from a very few academic papers taking an initial stab at modelling asexuality, and are based on very little data or research. Normally, these first stabs at anything get kicked around by academics, changed, rejected, improved, etc. But there hasn't been that much research on asexuality, and AVEN has jumped on them as The Truth, and now academic papers cite AVEN as if AVEN has some kind of academic credibility beyond the self selecting, subjective and anecdotal, and then AVEN points at those papers to substantiate its assumptions, so it's all turned into a big self-referential circle.

Oh dear.

She claims there is a difference between people with a low libido and asexuals, and the difference is that the first group is distressed about the lack of attraction to others and more prone to depression while asexuals are not distressed about their situation and don't masturbate much.

Ehm, that makes me think she's never read anything on AVEN because there obviously are asexuals who are distressed about the lack of attraction, depressed or like to masturbate quite a lot...

I was about to concur with you! I don't fit that.

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

I disagree. I have a pretty high libido.

To be candid, I did, especially in the first few months of my membership, exploring the vocabulary.

And I tend to think that many other people gain a lot of understanding and hence certain levels of satisfaction through mapping their feelings and orientation linguistically.

I don't see any reason to marginalize or make fun of this behavior. And I really do feel this phenomenon is fairly wide-spread.

Concurred.

I have no idea what the instrument used for "women" would be.

I know there is something. I'm assuming an insertible device?

Really, we need more research on asexuality in general. But, I think that will just come with time. It's still considered a very new orientation. Brotto and Bogaert are the main people doing any research. I'm sure the research will expand eventually. Then, we can get more clear definitions for various things. Until then, a lot of it is going to be argued.

One of the problems is that the higher up the research goes, the less people are there to do it. I read a thread a few days go where someone could not get an asexuality paper agreed for PhD thesis because of the lack of people who could supervise.


The problem aint the label it's the fact that the label seems to make people think there's no need for further discussion.

This. 100%.

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Telecaster68
I disagree. I have a pretty high libido.

In context, I was talking about asexuals with no or very low libidos. I think the split on AVEN is about 50-50 between them and asexuals with libidos (from the last available survey).

And the implode thing was a joke. An awful lot of threads end up as arguments about definitions of labels though.

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binary suns

I don't see how that makes logical sense, tele.

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I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

This is a great question.

I will go back to talk about food to explain how I see it. However I lack the ace experience to validate if it is truly like this, the same way aces lack the alo experience to understand the other side.

You may eat something and enjoy it without being hungry or really desiring it (you went to your aunt's house and didn't want to offend her)

That's not the same of feeling hungry and having cravings for a particular food.

Sexual desire = cravings

I hope aces can relate to these analogies.

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I think the split on AVEN is about 50-50 between them and asexuals with libidos (from the last available survey).

When was this survey taken?

Sexual desire = cravings

That makes sense, but I just can't relate to it.

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Telecaster68

When was this survey taken?

A couple of years ago nearly. There's a link on the site somewhere.

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Sorry for using the analogy-thing, but...

Im sexual and im "coffee-xual"

I like coffee! I get a headache, if it has been to long since my last cup! It pops up in my head every now and then, like "i could use a cup"

If someone talks about coffee or i see it or i smell it, it will trigger a need for coffee. If im offered a coffee, i will most likely try to sqeeze it in, even on a tight schedule. If i just had coffee, then my brain will function better and i will have had, even a short break from a stressful life and will be able to move along better. I like best the cafe latte with a cookie on the side, consumed in the company of my best friend and loved one. It doesnt happen that often and it takes some effort to get there, but it is worth it. That is, if it about the desire for the coffee-experience.

If it just about getting the headache away, which is also very nice. Then instant coffee, cold coffee, old coffee can do the trick! But other beverages just doesnt do it!

Coffee-desire=an inate desire for sex.

Cafe latte= when sex is a good experience for both partners, though only one might have had and therefore lose the headache. The other didnt really think about coffee and would maybe only drink it, since i feel the need for 'us to have coffee'! It is ok, if she doesnt acually want the coffee, but will participate in the coffee-arrangement and talk with me, or eat a cookie.

Instant coffe=only taking care of my headache, maybe by giving me a quick handjob, but no hugs/kisses/nakedness/showers/shaved legs... Its like saying: "i love you, and im not ok with envolving in sex that much rigth now, but it was on our agreed, compromised schedule, and since you are sexual and im not, i will take this one for the team (relationship) instead of seeing you stressed out and unhappy, though i do find it a bit pathetic, but please dont expect me to be much fun,"

Drinking something else would equal masturbation, and to me that is a bit of a struggle. Without having kept a record, i will say that masturbating 20 times:

10 will be 'meh, work done, no pain in balls, good against cancer!'

5 will be 'why i am i such a pathetic loser, who cant get this from my loved one?"

And the rest will be ranging from ok to fucking great, but sometimes requires more than just my hand. and can accompagnied by a slight feeling of either embarrassment and occasional feeling proud

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But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

This ^ would be me.

Some allosexuals can desire to have sex with a person they have seen for the first time, simply because of his/her physical appearance. This doesn't (necessarily) imply they will go through with it though. I have never felt this way.

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binary suns

What doesn't make sense?

I don't remember, sorry :unsure:

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10 will be 'meh, work done, no pain in balls, good against cancer!'

:unsure: Masturbation helps prevent cancer? Really? :blink:

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I feel like I have a sexual connection with all of life, especially when I am relishing it. Dancing feels like a sexual rush to me. I feel intensely attracted to interesting new people. Upon occasion I find a man or a woman sexually attractive (very occasionally). I can be an incredibly passionate kisser. I also find it easy to orgasm.

I am also uninterested in masturbation. Sexual penetration is of no interest to me. I don't have sexual fantasies that include penetration. I agree with the "invasive and sticky" comment.

What upsets me is being judged for this point of difference, having counsellors and psychologists trying to "fix" me, having to buy companionship through an act I'm finding increasingly distasteful because it is being forced on me.

Having a "label" means I can find a community of people with similar experiences, with similar concerns and issues. I can find support. Together we can educate others to be kinder and more understanding. As much as it carves us out as a group, it also holds the potential for us to raise awareness and increase inclusiveness of our differences.

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nanogretchen4

Heidi, the study finds a negative correlation between prostate cancer risk and frequency of ejaculation. Males who average 21 ejaculations per month have a 33% lower risk of prostate cancer than males who average 4 to 7 ejaculations per month. Interestingly, 4 to 7 times per month would be a fairly average frequency of sex for a married couple. It would be somewhat surprising if a couple had sex 21 times per month consistently over a span of many years, but it's much easier to believe that a man might masturbate that often. So if there's an actual cause and effect relationship, it's more likely that masturbation prevents prostate cancer.

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I'm not trying to be elitist or trying to exclude anyone from using the label asexual, I'm just trying to understand sexual desire a bit better.

There's people on here saying they want sex, but don't desire it. They want it for different reasons like to make a partner happy, just to try it out, to have kids etcetera. These are all external reasons. I see why they are not the same as actually desiring sex.

But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

I would like some input from sexuals and from sex-favourable aces here. Please enlighten me :)

As a sexual...

I think some self-labeled asexuals aren't asexual, personally, for the reasons you stated. It's as though some reasons for being drawn to sex are legitimate and some aren't, which is just baffling to me. Can you imagine a guy who only sleeps with other guys saying "I'm not gay, i'm straight, I just really like how gay sex feels, it's better than straight sex." That's patently absurd. Reasons are often our own way of making sense of our behavior, desires, etc. They're justifications, explanations, rationalizations. They shouldn't be confused with the underlying desires. Unfortunately, AVEN eliminates the distinction between conscious decisionmaking and subconscious desire, so as it stands, one literally can choose one's orientation because the definitions all rely on conscious choice.

I agree with this explanation, but I also think it creates a paradox of sorts.

You say that asexuality depends on subconscious desire and not conscious desire. However, the subconscious mind is by definition inaccessible to conscious thought. Hence, it's impossible for a person to really know if they are asexual, because they don't know the contents of their subconscious mind.

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And what about women? Do orgasms have benefits for them?

Heidi, the study finds a negative correlation between prostate cancer risk and frequency of ejaculation. Males who average 21 ejaculations per month have a 33% lower risk of prostate cancer than males who average 4 to 7 ejaculations per month. Interestingly, 4 to 7 times per month would be a fairly average frequency of sex for a married couple. It would be somewhat surprising if a couple had sex 21 times per month consistently over a span of many years, but it's much easier to believe that a man might masturbate that often. So if there's an actual cause and effect relationship, it's more likely that masturbation prevents prostate cancer.

So it's not the masturbation, but the ejaculation/clearing of the prostate 'build up'?

Thank you for the explanation.

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