What counts as sexual desire?

[Rising Sun]

There are other articles that say that asexuals masturbate a lot, so I wouldn't take Brotto's work as the only reference here. From what i can see, even on AVEN, on average libido doesn't really seem so different from the average sexual's. People with a low libido seem like a minority even on here.

[Telecaster68]

Normally, these first stabs at anything get kicked around by academics, changed, rejected, improved, etc. But there hasn't been that much research on asexuality, and AVEN has jumped on them as The Truth, and now academic papers cite AVEN as if AVEN has some kind of academic credibility beyond the self selecting, subjective and anecdotal, and then AVEN points at those papers to substantiate its assumptions, so it's all turned into a big self-referential circle.

I've read a few research papers on asexuality and the biggest problem I see is that they are based on online questionnaires only. There is no psychological/psychiatric evaluation etc. I mean, how can that be objective?

video sums up research done by Dr. Brotto (the whole paper can be found online). She claims there is a difference between people with a low libido and asexuals, and the difference is that the first group is distressed about the lack of attraction to others and more prone to depression while asexuals are not distressed about their situation and don't masturbate much.

Ehm, that makes me think she's never read anything on AVEN because there obviously are asexuals who are distressed about the lack of attraction, depressed or like to masturbate quite a lot...

They're distressed because they can't please their partners or don't know why they feel the way they do. They're not distressed because they want to be able to have sex for their own sake.

There's quite a few 'I'm miserable and life would be so much easier if I wanted sex' posts though.

[m4rble]

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.

If you don't know the definition of sexual desire you won't know how to label yourself(although personally I find the sexual desire definition pretty self-explanatory) If you don't care about labels that won't matter too much, but some people want to label themselves.

[m4rble]

Normally, these first stabs at anything get kicked around by academics, changed, rejected, improved, etc. But there hasn't been that much research on asexuality, and AVEN has jumped on them as The Truth, and now academic papers cite AVEN as if AVEN has some kind of academic credibility beyond the self selecting, subjective and anecdotal, and then AVEN points at those papers to substantiate its assumptions, so it's all turned into a big self-referential circle.

I've read a few research papers on asexuality and the biggest problem I see is that they are based on online questionnaires only. There is no psychological/psychiatric evaluation etc. I mean, how can that be objective?

video sums up research done by Dr. Brotto (the whole paper can be found online). She claims there is a difference between people with a low libido and asexuals, and the difference is that the first group is distressed about the lack of attraction to others and more prone to depression while asexuals are not distressed about their situation and don't masturbate much.

Ehm, that makes me think she's never read anything on AVEN because there obviously are asexuals who are distressed about the lack of attraction, depressed or like to masturbate quite a lot...

They're distressed because they can't please their partners or don't know why they feel the way they do. They're not distressed because they want to be able to have sex for their own sake.

There's quite a few 'I'm miserable and life would be so much easier if I wanted sex' posts though.

Life would be easier because it would be easier to find a romantic partner. It's not about personal desire so much.

[Telecaster68]

What does applying a fairly arbitrary label that only exists on AVEN to yourself achieve?

Again, not being, snide. Genuine question.

[Telecaster68]

There's quite a few 'I'm miserable and life would be so much easier if I wanted sex' posts though.

Life would be easier because it would be easier to find a romantic partner. It's not about personal desire so much.

Comes to much the same thing. Finding a partner would be easier if they felt desire for their own sake, so in effect they want to feel desire.

[m4rble]

What does applying a fairly arbitrary label that only exists on AVEN to yourself achieve?

Again, not being, snide. Genuine question.

People like to put things in mental boxes, it's not exactly logical.

There's quite a few 'I'm miserable and life would be so much easier if I wanted sex' posts though.

Life would be easier because it would be easier to find a romantic partner. It's not about personal desire so much.

Comes to much the same thing. Finding a partner would be easier if they felt desire for their own sake, so in effect they want to feel desire.

I guess that makes sense. I still don't think that makes asexuals the same as low libido people though.

[Telecaster68]

There's no way to know either way, since it's all about feelings which are utterly subjective and unverifiable.

[Perissodactyla]

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.

What does applying a fairly arbitrary label that only exists on AVEN to yourself achieve?

Again, not being, snide. Genuine question.

I will attempt to speak on behalf of those who gain a lot through the method of articulating personal nuances along the sexuality-gender continuum of labels.

Try to imagine for a moment that for some people, discovering a label or cluster of labels that FITS brings about a sort of satori or moment of clarity combined with possibly some degree of bliss.

I suppose you could even translate this experience of self-understanding via linguistic precision to experiencing some kind of an 'orgasm'.

:)

[Telecaster68]

They're going to get blissed out by understanding what AVEN means by desire? Really?

[Perissodactyla]

There's no way to know either way, since it's all about feelings which are utterly subjective and unverifiable.

In fact there are biomedical methods for measuring changes in 'feelings' to some extent.

The data from these instruments are cross-referenced and interpreted.

Common instruments used are EKG, EEG, lungs-breathing, saliva-cortisol measurement, eye-tracking.

I participated in some stress induction and reduction experiments to study stress and relaxation patterns induced by virtual environments and virtual characters.

It's super interesting and the instruments and processing software is always advancing. :)

[Perissodactyla]

They're going to get blissed out by understanding what AVEN means by desire? Really?

To be candid, I did, especially in the first few months of my membership, exploring the vocabulary.

And I tend to think that many other people gain a lot of understanding and hence certain levels of satisfaction through mapping their feelings and orientation linguistically.

I don't see any reason to marginalize or make fun of this behavior. And I really do feel this phenomenon is fairly wide-spread.

[Guest]

They're going to get blissed out by understanding what AVEN means by desire? Really?

No, but by a sudden feeling of wholeness in discovering something that 1) describes how you're feeling, and 2) fills in the missing pieces for you.

I had that experience with the gay thing. It took a couple years for me to come to terms, fully, but I do recall this feeling of... exhilaration and wholeness... when exploring lesbian film, books, etc. It was like "OMG yessss..."

It's that feeling you get when lyrics of a song perfectly describe something you've never been able to articulate. Except on a much more profound level, because they're not just song lyrics.

[Telecaster68]

And how do they differentiate the reactions of asexuals from very low libido'd sexuals?

[Telecaster68]

Oval, Skulls

Yes, I get that, but we're not talking about that. The OP is asking for a definition of something AVEN has redefined and can't agree on, so someone will pop up with their definition of desire, four other people will make confused subjective counter points, there will be no conclusion because there can't be, and the OP will end up more confused. It happens over and over.

That's not getting blissed out. Surely it's better to validate whatever form of desire he's having (assuming it's not for rape).

[Guest]

Then we're talking about two different things. Labels vs specific definitions. Problem is, you need one for the other.

[Perissodactyla]

And how do they differentiate the reactions of asexuals from very low libido'd sexuals?

This is perhaps one method used recently for "men". I have no idea what the instrument used for "women" would be.

[nanogretchen4]

Telecaster, if you are still insisting that libido is the same thing as sex drive, then someone with a very low libido is gray and someone with zero libido is asexual.

If you are willing to use the definition of libido that every other poster on AVEN is using, then asexuality and low libido aren't even similar unless someone has essentially no libido at all. A sexual person with a low libido desires partnered sex, although probably less frequently than a sexual person with a high libido and with a smaller physical need component. An asexual person with a high libido masturbates frequently and/or feels an urgent need to do so, but desires partnered sex never.

[Telecaster68]

That's measuring arousal not desire though.

[m4rble]

And how do they differentiate the reactions of asexuals from very low libido'd sexuals?

Low libido sexuals still desire sex sometimes. Low libido can also be a temporary state caused by drugs or life events whereas asexuality is an orientation. They might be difficult to differentiate, but that doesn't mean they're the same.

[Telecaster68]

That's measuring arousal not desire though.

Nano

I was talking about the essentially no libido scenario.

Skulls

Exactly. Since no one can agree on definitions, the labels based on them are futile, as we've seen plenty of times.

[Telecaster68]

"Low libido can also be a temporary state caused by drugs or life events whereas asexuality is an orientation."

Orientations are fluid - isn't that an AVEN shibboleth? So, no difference.

"They might be difficult to differentiate, but that doesn't mean they're the same."

If nobody can tell which is which, the difference is spurious.

[levelskid]

I think it's like for sexuals is that it feels super good and they have an internal drive to have more of it. For an asexual it feels super good, but they don't have that drive. Like it felt really good when it happened, but I still don't care much for it. It could not be on my mind for the rest of my life to try it again. This is my understanding.

[melancholy-sweet]

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.

I can only speak for my experiences in the US when I say that it matters because the expectations about sex make it difficult to navigate dating, relationships, and many different settings if you don't have a normative sex drive. Even if you don't know the term asexual or if it's not something you're familiar with but may identify with asexuality as AVEN defines it, you are familiar with how you feel uncomfortable and alienated with as aspect of your environment that people take for granted as part of their biology/culture. That it's assumed that to be normal, you must interested in and pursue sex can be very distressing. Perhaps I'm not answering your question very well, Telecaster, but I just wanted to offer my thoughts.

[melancholy-sweet]

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.

I can only speak for my experiences in the US when I say that it matters because the expectations about sex make it difficult to navigate dating, relationships, and many different settings if you don't have a normative sex drive. Even if you don't know the term asexual or if it's not something you're familiar with but may identify with asexuality as AVEN defines it, you are familiar with how you feel uncomfortable and alienated with as aspect of your environment that people take for granted as part of their biology/culture. That it's assumed that to be normal, you must interested in and pursue sex can be very distressing. Perhaps I'm not answering your question very well, Telecaster, but I just wanted to offer my thoughts.

[Telecaster68]

I think it's like for sexuals is that it feels super good and they have an internal drive to have more of it. For an asexual it feels super good, but they don't have that drive. Like it felt really good when it happened, but I still don't care much for it. It could not be on my mind for the rest of my life to try it again. This is my understanding.

But a sexual with low-to-no libido wouldn't have a drive to do it again, either.

[Telecaster68]

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.

I can only speak for my experiences in the US when I say that it matters because the expectations about sex make it difficult to navigate dating, relationships, and many different settings if you don't have a normative sex drive. Even if you don't know the term asexual or if it's not something you're familiar with but may identify with asexuality as AVEN defines it, you are familiar with how you feel uncomfortable and alienated with as aspect of your environment that people take for granted as part of their biology/culture. That it's assumed that to be normal, you must interested in and pursue sex can be very distressing. Perhaps I'm not answering your question very well, Telecaster, but I just wanted to offer my thoughts.

No, your point's very clear. I agree it's important for asexuals to understand there it's a Thing - I'm saying the way AVEN chooses to describe that Thing, in terms of attraction/desire/libido don't differentiate it clearly from almost all aspects of being sexual, and over and over again, the 'am I asexual?' posters end up being even more confused.

Since AVEN exists in part to educate, that's a pretty big failing

[Guest]

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.

Well I have a very high libido (I mean, medically, I have high levels of sex hormones) ..But I don't want to have sex with anyone, ever. There are lots of asexuals with very healthy libidos who just don't innately desire partnered sex, ever. You can tell the difference between someone with a chronically low libido and an asexual with a healthy libido, medically (through tests etc)

Regarding the topic at hand.

Sexual desire = desiring partnered sexual contact for sexual and/or emotional pleasure.

And if you experience that, ever, you're not asexual.

(edit) Or to put it more simply, do you want to have sex with anyone, ever, for emotional and/or sexual pleasure, yes or no? (yes = sexual desire)

Would you be happiest if you never had partnered sex again, yes or no? (yes = no innate desire for partnered sexual contact)

If you have a libido, would you rather masturbate to deal with that libido, or are there times you want another person present, because for you, sometimes that partnered sexual contact is better and more desirable than masturbation alone? rather masturbate = no innate desire for partnered sex. rather a partner sometimes = innate desire for partnered sex.

[Telecaster68]

You can tell the difference between someone with a chronically low libido and an asexual with a healthy libido, medically (through tests etc)

If the asexual masturbated, fantasised etc. you wouldn't even need that. But I've not heard of these tests - what are they?

Sexual desire = desiring partnered sexual contact for sexual and/or emotional pleasure.

Maybe. My point is that there'll be someone along in a moment to discuss whether that is in fact the definition (as a purely intellectual exercise, I'm sure we could both pick it apart semantically very easily) - we've both seen it a hundred times. That discussion can never resolve because 'desire' is a feeling and feelings are subjective, and however many words are thrown at them, there'll always be uncertainty about its ultimate meaning. So in practice, there's no working definition, especially since AVEN has redefined 'desire' from the common usage.

Given this, talking about 'desire' is only ever going to cloud the issue. Same with attraction. Same with libido. So using them is never going to clarify anything.

More importantly, they all have massive overlaps with how sexuals feel, so they don't actually differentiate sexuality and asexuality.

Put those two things together, and it's hardly surprising they're just confusing people.

[Guest]

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