What counts as sexual desire?

[Rynn]

I'm not trying to be elitist or trying to exclude anyone from using the label asexual, I'm just trying to understand sexual desire a bit better.

There's people on here saying they want sex, but don't desire it. They want it for different reasons like to make a partner happy, just to try it out, to have kids etcetera. These are all external reasons. I see why they are not the same as actually desiring sex.

But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

I would like some input from sexuals and from sex-favourable aces here. Please enlighten me :)

[m4rble]

But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

Yes.

[HeidiUK]

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

I'm having a hard time too.

I know what you mean, but it's hard to exactly qualify. As a sex-positive asexual and willing to compromise, I desire a happy partner. If that means we have a bit of sex, fine. I don't hate sex, more that I don't desire it for myself.

Does that help?

[Busrider]

But then there's also people who name reasons like: ... 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I think that depends a lot. - From my experience sex seemed suitable to "buy" me the closeness I desired, once the partner was done. So although sex gave it, it wasn't part of sex.

[Guest]

I'm not trying to be elitist or trying to exclude anyone from using the label asexual, I'm just trying to understand sexual desire a bit better.

There's people on here saying they want sex, but don't desire it. They want it for different reasons like to make a partner happy, just to try it out, to have kids etcetera. These are all external reasons. I see why they are not the same as actually desiring sex.

But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

I would like some input from sexuals and from sex-favourable aces here. Please enlighten me :)

As a sexual...

I think some self-labeled asexuals aren't asexual, personally, for the reasons you stated. It's as though some reasons for being drawn to sex are legitimate and some aren't, which is just baffling to me. Can you imagine a guy who only sleeps with other guys saying "I'm not gay, i'm straight, I just really like how gay sex feels, it's better than straight sex." That's patently absurd. Reasons are often our own way of making sense of our behavior, desires, etc. They're justifications, explanations, rationalizations. They shouldn't be confused with the underlying desires. Unfortunately, AVEN eliminates the distinction between conscious decisionmaking and subconscious desire, so as it stands, one literally can choose one's orientation because the definitions all rely on conscious choice.

[Guest]

But then there's also people who name reasons like: 'Sex physically feels good' or 'I just want the closeness to my partner that sex gives me.' These are internal reasons. You are having sex for you, not for anyone or anything else.

I'm having a hard time distinguishing this from actual sexual desire. Aren't physical pleasure and emotional closeness exactly what sexuals want when they say they desire sex?

Yes, yes they are. You aren't the only one that has trouble distinguishing there.

[Lord Jade Cross]

What would happen if we just eliminated all labels. Would the overall division between people's reason for sexual conduct whether it be participating, abstaining or simply denying/not having the desire to do it be elimimated?

[Telecaster68]

What would happen if we just eliminated all labels.

AVEN would implode.

Would the overall division between people's reason for sexual conduct whether it be participating, abstaining or simply denying/not having the desire to do it be elimimated?

Apart from 'being quite happy never to have sex again', there is no clear division.

[Lord Jade Cross]

How come? I mean lets not call ourselves sexual, asexuals, greysexuals, etc for a moment. What would be so hard to tell apart if I just say "I just have sex/dont have sex because it feels good/I dont feel anything so I do it/dont do it.

It seems to me thatbthere is an array of, in a sense, unnecessary conflicts that are brought up by the labels.

Why cant we just say what we want or dont want and leave it at that?

[Guest]

How come? I mean lets not call ourselves sexual, asexuals, greysexuals, etc for a moment. What would be so hard to tell apart if I just say "I just have sex/dont have sex because it feels good/I dont feel anything so I do it/dont do it.

It seems to me that there is an array of in a sense unnecessary conflict that is brought up by the labels.

There absolutely is. It adds additional words, definitions, and further barriers from the reality of actual feelings. That said, if people came here and said "I only have sex because it feels super good", others will still say they maybe don't belong in the asexual community, so the actual conflict wouldn't be resolved, it would just be shifted, slightly.

[Telecaster68]

I'm completely agreeing with your implication, Jade.

Even if asexuals are only having sex (willingly) to please their partner, there are times that sexuals do that too.

"I only have sex because it feels super good", others will still say they maybe don't belong in the asexual community

... because, you know, maybe they're not asexual...

[Lord Jade Cross]

Forget the community, the labels, the ideals, everything. Just imagine we are a group of (labeless) strangers on the net (which is technically wjat we are. If I ask you "Skulls, why do you like sex" dont answer me with a "because Im sexual". I want to know what YOU want, not your label. Same for everyone, the question applies for all.

I'll start. I personally dont seek sex because I dont feel much downstairs and see no point in having another person stimulating it.

[Guest]

I'm completely agreeing with your implication, Jade.

Even if asexuals are only having sex (willingly) to please their partner, there are times that sexuals do that too.

"I only have sex because it feels super good", others will still say they maybe don't belong in the asexual community

... because, you know, maybe they're not asexual...

Exactly. I mean, I agree they're not, but whatever... my point is, the conflict on AVEN won't disappear by eliminating labels.

Jade, why do I like sex? I don't know... I'm not sure "why do you like sex" is the right question. It's definitely not going to get you the same answer as if you ask me "why do you have sex".

[Lord Jade Cross]

Ok, why do you have sex then?

[Guest]

Honestly? I feel incomplete without it.

[Lord Jade Cross]

There you see? Does it at any moment have to involve a label? You have it to feel complete. Others may have it because it feels good. Others will do it for compromise and so on. There isnt a reason to slam a label and say Im (insert label) and thats why I (insert activity)

[Guest]

Hey man, I do not disagree with you!!

[Lord Jade Cross]

Huh? o.o I haven't said you have.

[Guest]

Oh ok :D

[Telecaster68]

Jade, I doubt there's a sexual poster who'd disagree with you.

The myriad of sublabels and salami slicing of desire/attraction is an asexual thing, as is the getting baffled when reality doesn't fit the conceptual models. Nobody else expects them to, because they don't have those conceptual models.

As far as I can tell, the whole 'types of attraction' thing comes from a very few academic papers taking an initial stab at modelling asexuality, and are based on very little data or research. Normally, these first stabs at anything get kicked around by academics, changed, rejected, improved, etc. But there hasn't been that much research on asexuality, and AVEN has jumped on them as The Truth, and now academic papers cite AVEN as if AVEN has some kind of academic credibility beyond the self selecting, subjective and anecdotal, and then AVEN points at those papers to substantiate its assumptions, so it's all turned into a big self-referential circle.

[m4rble]

Forget the community, the labels, the ideals, everything. Just imagine we are a group of (labeless) strangers on the net (which is technically wjat we are. If I ask you "Skulls, why do you like sex" dont answer me with a "because Im sexual". I want to know what YOU want, not your label. Same for everyone, the question applies for all.

I'll start. I personally dont seek sex because I dont feel much downstairs and see no point in having another person stimulating it.

I don't seek sex because it seems unnecessary and kind of invasive and messy.

[Telecaster68]

You say that as though 'invasive and messy' are bad things... ;)

[Nigellaseed]

Like eating a squishy peach?

[binary suns]

this conversations is interesting BUT

what counts as sexual desire?

[Perissodactyla]

As a sexual...

I think some self-labeled asexuals aren't asexual, personally, for the reasons you stated.

It's as though some reasons for being drawn to sex are legitimate and some aren't,

which is just baffling to me.

.

.

.

Reasons are often our own way of making sense of our behavior, desires, etc. They're justifications, explanations, rationalizations. They shouldn't be confused with the underlying desires. Unfortunately, AVEN eliminates the distinction between conscious decisionmaking and subconscious desire, so as it stands, one literally can choose one's orientation because the definitions all rely on conscious choice.

For some reason I find myself struggling with describing my thoughts on this topic, but I'll try anyway. I've been thinking about related topics anyway for a very long time. :)

I regard the method of using labels as necessary, useful, exploratory, playful and communicative.

Also, sometimes I feel that using labels can easily become a sort of act of temporary self-deception, an act of will to reduce one's confusion for a while during the instrospection and the self-exploration process. This process is legitimate, practical and effective, buying some time to figure oneself out and learn from others while engaging in the play of reflecting on how each of us wears those labels or needs to exchange them for others that fit us better.

Conceptualizing and labeling one's orientation and gender-sexuality identity gives one an immediate sense of freedom and control... and not feeling so overwhelmed and vulnerable to boring norms imposed by others.

Even though this is mostly a very sincere and authentic process of exploring the truth about onself and others, it sometimes feels like there is some deception and 'lying' involved to some extent, but perhaps mostly at an unconscious level. These are very deep introspections, so it really does take a long time for the conscious and unconscious minds to come into better alignment and harmony.

The 'lying' that results from dependence on labels results from an attempt to bridge the gap between how we really feel, how our feelings change and how we conceptualize this verbally, to connect our wishes and fantasies about who we Wish we were, how we wish we Could be with what we're really like and are becoming in the future.

Personally, I've chosen to abandon the use of labels, although they served me really well over the past year since I became aware of the asexuality agender discourse.

I'm sorry that I can't write more clearly than this at the moment, but the topic has been on a back burner for a very long time, so thanks for all the enzymes. :)

lol

[Nigellaseed]

It should be whatever the people that are together want it to be. No barriers.

[Rising Sun]

What dos count as sexual desire... As someone in the grey area, this questions is quite hard to answer.

What definitely counts as sexual feelings, though, i have a much clearer idea of this. Something that absolutely counts as sexual feelings that make a person at least grey, is the feeling of intense emotional connexion triggered by the idea of sex with a particular person. Whether there is craving (= desire) or attraction doesn't matter as much to me now as this feeling of "sexuality contributes to connecting you and me", whether it's for one single night or for a whole life. And I haven't seen a single asexual describing this feeling, or at least the way I mean it ; on the contrary I think that what characterizes asexuality is complete disconnection when it comes to this.

[chimaera]

.

[m4rble]

Normally, these first stabs at anything get kicked around by academics, changed, rejected, improved, etc. But there hasn't been that much research on asexuality, and AVEN has jumped on them as The Truth, and now academic papers cite AVEN as if AVEN has some kind of academic credibility beyond the self selecting, subjective and anecdotal, and then AVEN points at those papers to substantiate its assumptions, so it's all turned into a big self-referential circle.

I've read a few research papers on asexuality and the biggest problem I see is that they are based on online questionnaires only. There is no psychological/psychiatric evaluation etc. I mean, how can that be objective?

This video sums up research done by Dr. Brotto (the whole paper can be found online). She claims there is a difference between people with a low libido and asexuals, and the difference is that the first group is distressed about the lack of attraction to others and more prone to depression while asexuals are not distressed about their situation and don't masturbate much.

Ehm, that makes me think she's never read anything on AVEN because there obviously are asexuals who are distressed about the lack of attraction, depressed or like to masturbate quite a lot...

They're distressed because they can't please their partners or don't know why they feel the way they do. They're not distressed because they want to be able to have sex for their own sake.

[Telecaster68]

Or, the people on AVEN aren't asexual, but just have very low libidos. There's no real way of telling the difference.

On the 'what counts as sexual desire?' point.

Serious question. Why does it matter? Whatever you feel or don't feel, understanding whether AVEN thinks it's sexual desire doesn't change anything.