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Thrasymachus

The Walnut Theory: Sex, Marriage & Kids Are Not Worth It

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Thrasymachus

Everyone is familiar with a walnut, they usually have a hard shell and a nut in the inside. Now imagine if there was this mythical type of a walnut, that has five hard shells and the same meager amount of nut in the inside. And imagine you had no tool to open it but your bare hands, or a rock and they were not commercially de-shelled. Would you bother with the effort to eat a walnut then? I wouldn't.

I think this is the best analogy I can come up with to explain why as a 33 year old male with an attraction to women, I will not bother forming any type of relationship with them. I don't even really have female friends or want any. To me they are like mythical walnuts with five shells, I don't want to do the work required to flirt, ask them out, have relationships with them, then sex. There are also issues like the fact that I hate subterfuge and modern flirting is based mostly on that, low self-confidence, body image issues, the fact that I am in the hole so bad I may as well stay a virgin, etc. Also I don't like to meet people in general, the more people I meet the less hope I find I can have for the future. Further I feel like sex is way over-hyped and even if tomorrow I could bed as many women as Gene Simmons, it wouldn't be worth it. The sexual pleasure is mitigated by emotional attachment, emotional conflict, feelings of guilt, etc.

Right now I am in the bordello nation of Greece visiting family. So many young couples are like the type you can see sometimes in American malls who cannot keep their hands off each other, but it is obvious they are conforming to culturally imposed patterns of behavior. Greeks tend to choke or drown many of their close social connections. If they are young and single they seem to be out with the same friends day after day, after day. If they have kids they drown them with constant nagging, phone calls and contact allowing no space to develop. Young couples here seem to follow the same pattern. But even if a couple cannot keep their hands off each genuinely, out of a fidelity to the social construct called love imagine five years down the road. Everyone that knows them would be sickened if they still could not walk without holding hands, if they constantly kissed and whispered to each other, etc. That is because deep down everyone knows that alot of the imagery associated with eternal love as a social construct in our society is bullshit, echoing previous views when Western society was more mature on this issue and cultural memes portrayed love as something that comes and goes or something that cannot be requited like in Romeo and Juliet. They died before they could pass the blind passion phase of youth and their newfound acquitanceship.

The way I look at marriage and children is that it is alot like juggling. I have a job I hate, but stay at it for the pay and benefits. That is one ball. But supposed I did look at women differently and was married. That wife would be the second ball. Then maybe we want a kid. That is a third ball. Then a house. A fourth ball! Now the juggling is getting difficult. Another kid? The fifth ball! I often joke that what if I get good at bobsledding and want to join the Jamaican bobsled team(a reference to the film Cool Runnings). Now with my current life situation, I could do that if I really wanted to. If I was juggling the five balls, I almost definitely could not, it would mean abandoning my family, my wife, my home on a lark with a low success rate, especially since Jamaica cannot have a world class bobsled team.
There is actually much going against the traditional family structure. For one according to an American retirement magazine:

http://www.aarp.org/personal-growth/transitions/info-09-2010/all_the_lonely_people.html

Shocking no one, married people are less lonely than those who are divorced, separated, or never married. But that wedding band doesn't have magical powers: 29 percent of married people reported being lonely. "There's nothing worse than being half of a couple that's not getting along," says Ironside, the London Independent advice columnist. "There are lots of difficult things about living alone, but at least no one is actively ignoring you."

Btw, that is just stats for how many are married but still feel lonely. That doesn't meant they are actually happy in their marriage. According to statistics this is how many divorce:

https://www.truthorfiction.com/divorce
One of the latest reports about divorce was released this year by the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS). It is based on a 1995 federal study of nearly 11,000 women ages 15-44. It predicted that one-third of new marriages among younger people will end in divorce within 10 years and 43 percent within 15 years. That is not a death sentence, however; it’s a forecast. Martha Farnsworth Riche, former head of the Census Bureau, told USA Today, “This is what is going to happen unless we want to change it.”

But again that just tells how many marriages outright fail in the USA, about 43% within 15 years a shocking number. In addition we must also realize that alot of people are staying unhappily married because they don't want all the juggling balls they are constantly throwing up to fall.

What about kids?

http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/
From the perspective of the species, it’s perfectly unmysterious why people have children. From the perspective of the individual, however, it’s more of a mystery than one might think. Most people assume that having children will make them happier. Yet a wide variety of academic research shows that parents are not happier than their childless peers, and in many cases are less so. This finding is surprisingly consistent, showing up across a range of disciplines. Perhaps the most oft-cited datum comes from a 2004 study by Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel Prize–winning behavioral economist, who surveyed 909 working Texas women and found that child care ranked sixteenth in pleasurability out of nineteen activities. (Among the endeavors they preferred: preparing food, watching TV, exercising, talking on the phone, napping, shopping, housework.) This result also shows up regularly in relationship research, with children invariably reducing marital satisfaction. The economist Andrew Oswald, who’s compared tens of thousands of Britons with children to those without, is at least inclined to view his data in a more positive light: “The broad message is not that children make you less happy; it’s just that children don’t make youmore happy.” That is, he tells me, unless you have more than one. “Then the studies show a more negative impact.” As a rule, most studies show that mothers are less happy than fathers, that single parents are less happy still, that babies and toddlers are the hardest, and that each successive child produces diminishing returns. But some of the studies are grimmer than others. Robin Simon, a sociologist at Wake Forest University, says parents are more depressed than nonparents no matter what their circumstances—whether they’re single or married, whether they have one child or four.

The idea that parents are less happy than nonparents has become so commonplace in academia that it was big news last year when the Journal of Happiness Studies published a Scottish paper declaring the opposite was true. “Contrary to much of the literature,” said the introduction, “our results are consistent with an effect of children on life satisfaction that is positive, large and increasing in the number of children.” Alas, the euphoria was short-lived. A few months later, the poor author discovered a coding error in his data, and the publication ran an erratum. “After correcting the problem,”it read,“the main results of the paper no longer hold. The effect of children on the life satisfaction of married individuals is small, often negative, and never statistically significant.”

Yet one can see why people were rooting for that paper. The results of almost all the others violate a parent’s deepest intuition. Daniel Gilbert, the Harvard psychologist and host of This Emotional Life on PBS, wrote fewer than three pages about compromised parental well-being in Stumbling on Happiness. But whenever he goes on the lecture circuit, skeptical questions about those pages come up more frequently than anything else. “I’ve never met anyone who didn’t argue with me about this,” he says. “Even people who believe the data say they feel sorry for those for whom it’s true.”

I remember two of my married co-workers with children conversing. One was saying how great it was for him that a school bus took 40 minutes to take his child to and from school even though he lived about 10 minutes away by car due to the structure of the route. Even though it sucked for the kid, he loved the situation. The other unlucky one complained that between work, acting as the kids taxi to school, watching the kids, he had no real significant down time to unwind.

I could go on but I think I made my point. Unlike most people I am more cerebral, inward focused, live in my own head more; I analyze to death every small decision. I cannot just go with the herd. The walnut of sex is probably not worth the effort of much more people to open, they just can never know it because they live a simple life of imitating their peers, conforming to parental and societal expectations. They are too intellectually incurious and invested in distracted and pursuing entertainment industry to come across or ponder the type of sources I cited why in atomized capitalist society, sex, marriage and kids, is as they say perhaps obsolete or a bad deal for the adults involved. Africans wisely say that it takes a village to raise a child and in modernized societies there is no village or social support, everything burdens your shoulders. When I was a kid in the 1980's as soon as I was old enough, I was outside frequently. Now in the 2015 that is not the case where I live, the kids rarely go outside. There is no respite. Is the walnut of sex even worth opening even for people who don't consider themselves asexual? It seems our predicament has its virtues.

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Salted Karamel

I feel the same way, more or less. I know I'm happier right now for not having kids. For the lack of relationship...eh, it's a toss up. I think I'd be happier if I had a good relationship, but I know I'd be very, very miserable trying to secure one. So I don't engage in the activities of dating and socializing because I do not enjoy either and they make me miserable.

But then I wonder about the long term...if I am being short-sighted in avoiding the things I do not enjoy doing in the present without considering that going through that difficulty would make me happier in the future.

It's like, when you're a kid, you can avoid doing that math homework all weekend long and it might feel great...but on Monday you're going to be pretty fucking miserable when you have no homework to show for it. I know I'm not supposed to view socializing or dating as chores, but just the same, would I be happier for getting them done?

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Woodworker1968

Pretty much sums up my POV on the situation, but I totally agree with the walnut analogy.

I can see how it's possible the birthrate could crash in the coming years, at least in the US. Millions of American men have given up on relationships because they're tired of jumping through hoops. Whether some of us like it or not, the burden of jumping through hoops is shifting to women---it's inevitable they'll have to chuck that traditional role of chasee and become the chasers.

Or, they can just say the hell with it, and the US will end up having to create special work visas to attract millions of migrants to work in our eldercare industry.

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Thrasymachus

@katydidd:

I don't think it is like homework. Rather I think overly social people have alot of downsides that they cannot see because they are not analytical enough, they are too much about getting lost in whatever given moment to mull life over much. They often do things without much though, while I am paralyzed by overthinking every minor life detail in excruciating detail.

I will tell about some of the friends I have from high school as sometime around there I stopped desiring to meet new people and my acquaintances. I only have two close male friends. One had his own apartment, but I am not kidding when I say he never had a table, couch or anything. He almost always ate out or ordered food out and ate it on his bed. If I were a women seeking a mate, needless to say I would never deal with him. But he is just a male friend, sometimes I go well over a week without seeing him outside of work(we work together). Another friend is about a few months younger than me, still 33 I believe but he never works and just does drugs and drink beer and sometimes sells a dimebag of weed here and there or cocaine for someone. He is not a very great friend and sometimes calls at odd numbers to guilt me into giving him money for his addictions. But since I don't really like socializing and meeting people, I keep these two friends who are about my only close friends. I have this one acquaintance that had 4 kids and was so lazy, I never saw her eldest son outside on his own till he was age 14 when I was shocked that he was allowed out instead of watching his younger siblings as per usual. Basically most modern people are so flawed, dysfunctional and toxic knowing them is often a net loss in many ways. Can you imagine being shacked up with the type of people I described? To have kids with them? It would be a nightmare, like I said you would be stuck juggling a balls like a house, the marriage, the kids and stuck between the anvil of staying married till the kids are grown or getting a divorce and facing financial uncertainty.

I have been thinking long and hard about quitting the job I hate and living in an intentional community full of more thoughtful people than the cultural mainstream. That way I won't have to expend energy on friends, socialization or activities because I will be living with alot of diverse, interesting, non-orthodox people. I think it would improve my quality of life immensely but I don't have the guts to leave a job I get paid $27 an hour in for a job I get paid barely above minimum wage.

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Philip027
I think this is the best analogy I can come up with to explain why as a 33 year old male with an attraction to women, I will not bother forming any type of relationship with them. I don't even really have female friends or want any. To me they are like mythical walnuts with five shells, I don't want to do the work required to flirt, ask them out, have relationships with them, then sex.

Women are not these mythical alien creatures/walnuts, you know. They're still people just like you.

In addition, the sort of "game" you describe is not something you have to play in order to find companionship, nor is it something that all women care to play either.

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Sally

Or, they can just say the hell with it, and the US will end up having to create special work visas to attract millions of migrants to work in our eldercare industry.


You must not have ever visited an assisted living place or a nursing home. They've been filled with immigrants for decades.

I have been thinking long and hard about quitting the job I hate and living in an intentional community full of more thoughtful people than the cultural mainstream. That way I won't have to expend energy on friends, socialization or activities because I will be living with alot of diverse, interesting, non-orthodox people. I think it would improve my quality of life immensely but I don't have the guts to leave a job I get paid $27 an hour in for a job I get paid barely above minimum wage.


To be part of a living community, you actually have to be friendly and socialize. In fact, you wouldn't be accepted as a part of such a community unless you appeared to be friendly.

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Thrasymachus

I didn't expect to log-on and see such passive aggressive replies.

@Philip027:

I am not saying women are walnuts and it is funny enough you object when the first person who responded and liked my post was a female. Obviously I cannot write from the female perspective of things, since I am not and have never lived as a female. I only know how males think, specifically me, but it seems at least one female agreed with my walnut theory. The theory works in two senses, for asexuals for obvious reasons but even for those who are very sexual. They may think the walnut is worth it short term because they like sex and immediate companionship but they are using short term decision making to make what are long term decisions. If you asked me two years name a successful marriage I knew, I would say my uncle on my mom'd side and his wife, my aunt. It turns out I never really knew them closely and my aunt divorced him a year or so ago. She was unhappily married for years, perhaps most of the marriage and just waited till their two youngest kids were older and the right motivation/opportunity to file for divorce. Now my uncle who has to be almost be 60 years old, who works physically demanding construction type work doing aluminum siding has no home, his retirement will probably be screwed and he stays at a friends house and has difficulty seeing his own kids. If twenty something year old him had the foresight he never may have bothered with that walnut. Really I cannot name you many happily married couples that I know well, in my life. My uncle and aunt on my dad's side seem to be happily married, but that is about it.


In addition, the sort of "game" you describe is not something you have to play in order to find companionship, nor is it something that all women care to play either.

And how do introverted people who don't play the expected social games tend to do in finding companionship? Recently while taking a bus from Nafplio back to Korinthos I saw an introverted girl who seemed to be looking at me quite a bit. I think she liked me, but I am clueless at such things. She spent most of the time looking at a handwritten diary. The end result, I never talked to her and she never talked to me, outside of the moment when a sticker from the bus to mark the seat numbers fell and she mentioned it to me. People watch too many movies full of fantasies where the introverted, shy people suddenly become social butterflies and they have trouble seeing the reality they don't want to see(which is why escapism is so popular). One example I saw recently was "Girl Next Door" with Emile Hirsch:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265208/

A shy nerdy high school kid miraculously has a twenty something ex-porn star as a neighbor, and gets the girl and becomes the envy of school and the hero of the movie. Well that is Hollywood dreck, what I described above, the bus situation is real life.

@Sally:

That is extremely patronizing and passive aggressive. I have actually stayed at an intentional community overnight and got along fine. If you asked most of my co-workers at work, I don't think many would have much bad to say about me. I get along with just about everyone, being friends and choosing a female companion is far more different. With friends I am more selective, with a female companion I will be far, far more selective since like most people I feel I will settle with whatever is around me at a given point in time. Just like I settled for a job I hate, because of the pay and benefits. But I can leave a job that is no problem if I muster the balls or motivation. If I happened to be married with a kids, house, it is obvious that it is not something you can just leave because you don't like it. I can get along fine with almost anyone I barely have to interact with, but the more you interact with someone, the more discerning you have to be.

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Hooded_Crow

Hello, I'm a shy girl, incredibly diagnosably shy. And don't you know, I'm in a happy, stable, committed, fulfilling relationship.

Also, I don't play games and never have and I hate people who do. I bet you lots of girls feel the same. As for your "I don't know how girls think", come on now! We're people! How about assuming we think like normal human beings?

Mind you, if you think a relationship and family would endanger your freedom, then that indeed means you are not ready for those things. You may never be. It may just not be your thing. But don't fault others for that.

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Philip027
If you asked me two years name a successful marriage I knew, I would say my uncle on my mom'd side and his wife, my aunt. It turns out I never really knew them closely and my aunt divorced him a year or so ago. She was unhappily married for years, perhaps most of the marriage and just waited till their two youngest kids were older and the right motivation/opportunity to file for divorce. Now my uncle who has to be almost be 60 years old, who works physically demanding construction type work doing aluminum siding has no home, his retirement will probably be screwed and he stays at a friends house and has difficulty seeing his own kids. If twenty something year old him had the foresight he never may have bothered with that walnut. Really I cannot name you many happily married couples that I know well, in my life. My uncle and aunt on my dad's side seem to be happily married, but that is about it.

Ok, so maybe your family doesn't contain a good example of a lasting healthy marriage. That must mean they don't exist.

And how do introverted people who don't play the expected social games tend to do in finding companionship?

I turned out pretty well, I think.

Again, not everyone is into those games. Society just does a decent job at making you think they are.

With friends I am more selective, with a female companion I will be far, far more selective since like most people I feel I will settle with whatever is around me at a given point in time. Just like I settled for a job I hate, because of the pay and benefits.

People settle for jobs they don't like because the bills gotta get paid somehow.

Relationships are a different story altogether. It's a life enrichment / personal growth sort of thing. Not at all a required sort of thing to live. People are generally much choosier with their relationship partners because when it comes down to it, relationships are something people do because they feel like it -- not because they have to do it. They can *afford* to be choosier. People bother enough with Shit They Don't Like Doing in their everyday lives as it is; why would most (sane) people volunteer for more?

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Thrasymachus

@Philip027:

There is a great Henrik Ibsen quote that explains what is happening right here:


If you take the life lie from an average man, you take away his happiness as well.

Which is why you are using thinly veiled passive aggressive tactics, because I took away some myths you feel you need.

Did I base what I wrote solely from personal experience? Did you even read what I wrote? I gave quotes from AARP research on how even a large portion of old married couples feel lonely despite being married, a NYMag article explaining in laymen terms why couples with children are more unhappy than childless people according to the social science research, statistics stating that 43% of American marriages end in divorce within 15 years.

@Hooded_Crow:

Wow, it is funny how people use thinly veiled personal attacks just because I very nonchalantly took away some myths about domination social rituals and institutions like marriage, the family the kids. If it is just me, Thrasymachus, then why do so many countries like Greece, Japan, Western Europe, etc. have birth rates that are below replacement and people marrying later and later? Is it just me or is everyone, even those who say they want marriage, a family and kids re-evaluating what a good deal it is in light of new and worsening social conditions? For example here is an article using Japan as an example going into why more and more of the population as the years pass are losing interest in sex, family, relationships:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11362306/Why-dont-Japanese-men-like-having-sex.html

People are not totally stupid, despite all the fake overly positive media and entertainment industry depictions, more people are figuring out some of what I am trying to get across in this thread.

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Rising Sun

  • Be careful of the kind of vocabulary you're using. "Theory" means demonstrating something with the use of scientifically valid data for being read by scientists. This is just an Internet forum, not Nature, and unless you show me evidence of the contrary, I'll assume you aren't a scientist.

Newsflash : women are human beings just like you, not mythical creatures who have radically different types of neurons and reasoning. Different levels of estrogens and testosterone don't make your thoughts radically different. They don't make you a different species. And you can also communicate with women with being "just friends" as a long term purpose, you know. If you're unable of "just friendly" and disinterested communication with some people, or unable of keeping communication "just friendly" indefinitely, and worse, only because those people's gender is female, if to make it short you're imagining that the only possible kind of communication with women is "flirty mode", well, that's quite judgmental and really sad.

Your last paragraph gives you the answer you need : you're an introvert, so you don't feel the need to be social (having a partner and / or kids is one of many possible ways of being social) as much as an extrovert. Introverts easily enjoy being alone.

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Thrasymachus

@RisingSun:

Yes, you are right this is an internet forum. So I hope people would use it for one of the only things that internet forums are good for serious discussion, instead of surrogate socialization which turns toxic with hidden cliques cultivated via IRC, email, chat, ganging up on outsiders part of the less invested majority of posters and lurkers. Or games like attacking a person for taking away their cherished life myths and insinuating that intentional communities wouldn't accept me, that maybe only just my family doesn't contain healthy marriages as if I and everyone else is blind to the type of sources I gave in my opening post to this thread, that I am some kind of weirdo that cannot interact with women.

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Rising Sun

Why don't you interact with women the same way you interact with men ? Why should you treat people differently based on their gender ? Don't give me reasons for that please, just think about it. It's absurd.

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Hooded_Crow

Hi again! Unfortunately, I have no life myths. So you didn't take away anything. Get over yourself. You don't have that power.

Starting a post with "wow, it's funny how..." IS passive aggressive. What I was doing was attacking your idea that females are a group that thinks differently, uses games and are generally totally strange beings. Because that is just stupid. Come on. I'm a person. You're a person .

Since it seemed that the mere fact of having one girl agree with you totally confirmed your theory, I just thought I'd offer another perspective from another girl.

I happen to be happy in my relationship. That's why I'm in it. And if I ever have children, it'll be because it would make me and my partner happy.

Seems pretty simple to me: if you feel relationships and children wouldn't make you happy, you personally, then don't have them! But don't go saying that this is because of females or society or whatever when it is nothing but your personal preference. Which is totally valid, by the way.

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Thrasymachus

@Rising Sun:

No, it is not absurd, most societies in most of human history have never have the kind of the kind of unique conception of friendship that modern Westerners have. To wit, since I am the first in my family born outside of Greece, I have looked into this. In "Vasilika: A Village of Modern Greece" the anthropologist author, Friedl, mentions that Greek villagers in the 50's in Vasilika did not attempt to "establish new and direct relations with complete strangers" -- that is those outside of the familial or villager's extra-village associations, essentially what you would likely term a "friend". That is actually how all societies operated in pre-capitalist social relations.

I interact with women, for my example, my older neighbor and I talk to her semi-frequently when she is outside. But I don't have what I would call female friends and I especially don't think that is a good idea for two people of the opposite sex who are actually attracted to become friends and interact regularly unless it is organically through life circumstances like being co-workers, neighbors, etc.

Also about the white knighting about women just being humans. What if I said I know how African Americans think? Or Chinese? We are all humans, but we only know how our group thinks, and I am not a women, an African American or Chinese. To wit Bryon Hurt in one of his talks on Youtube, asks the men he is lecturing about masculinity and gender violence:

"What did you do today to avoid being raped?"

All the men didn't do anything, the women when asked the same did tell what measures they took. As a male who is 6'1 and about 160 lbs., I take no measures to avoid being raped, I go outside alone at any time I want pretty much anywhere except inner city American ghettos. So no, I will not play white knight naive games that I know how women think and how they behave.

Well I did it again, something stupid in taking on friendship and political correct games of "we are all human" and I guess I will get more passive aggressive attacks for that. Sigh. This is part of why I don't like social interaction and am so selective. The type of person I would like to interact as a friend or mate isn't really produced by this blithe, hedonistic, anti-intellectual, mass society.

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Rising Sun

Maybe you have a twin brother, you know. Don't tell me that you know how your twin brother thinks better than your twin sister. You're categorizing people and stereotyping them to the extreme, and it hurts both them and you, because you're treating them like strange aliens, not equals. You're a human being before being a man, i'm a human being before being a woman. If you consider that i'm a woman before being human, while my sex is only a ridiculously tiny detail, and if you consider that for that reason, communication on a purely platonic level is impossible, I'm not going to tolerate that at all, i'm telling you. If it happened on my workplace, I would even have a reason to complain if one of my coworkers thought that way about me.

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Philip027
Which is why you are using thinly veiled passive aggressive tactics, because I took away some myths you feel you need.

1) You will need to try a lot harder than that to take anything away from me, sorry

2) If you think you are being "personally attacked" in this thread I don't think you know what an attack actually is

Love and relationships are a gamble, no one's denying that. Some people won't wanna get involved, and that's fair. The people who don't want to be involved shouldn't feel obligated to be.

All I am saying to you is that, if you don't feel like it's something worthwhile to do, then just say that and own up to it, rather than try to say it's because the opposite sex is some bunch of mysterious aliens or walnuts or dingbats or whatever. That is where you start jumping the shark and go from saying something reasonable to something bigoted.

Well I did it again, something stupid in taking on friendship and political correct games of "we are all human" and I guess I will get more passive aggressive attacks for that. Sigh. This is part of why I don't like social interaction and am so selective.

Again, if you stop taking *other human beings* and treating them like they're totally foreign entities, you might actually get somewhere and make progress. That's something that's on you though, not everyone else.

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Thrasymachus

@Rising Sun:

This is beyond pathetic, you are clearly being very socially manipulative and trying with more of your posts(which in total number over 3,000) to make me seem the bad guy. Look I don't look at forums for social interaction. I look at most people as background ornaments in my life and not centerpiece participants. I just came here for serious discussion, because where I am gonna find fellow asexuals, especially because I don't mention to anyone I feel I am an asexual in real life.

If you are white and went up to African Americans and said you knew how they think, when you have not experienced their life as African Americans they would be mad. I have been in Greece for 3 months, if I happened to be a tourist and patronizingly said after these 3 meager months I know how they think as a nation most would be offended. But I am not a tourist, I am someone whose whole family has lived in Greece, whose father still lives in Greece, who was raised by Greeks. They sense that I don't speak Greek like a native, ask me where I am from, I say New Jersey and they often either ask or tell me that I am Greek or Greek-American. Everyone is not all just human, there are thousands of different nations, tribes, identities and no you don't know how they think. Stop being patronizing and playing sly games trying to help cultivate a mental impression against me in this forum.

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Philip027
I look at most people as background ornaments in my life and not centerpiece participants.

What a shocker.

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Rising Sun

So, do you want that I treat you like "the Greek" and "the male" rather than like a person ? Oh and I shouldn't talk to you other than in a flirty way, because you're male and i'm female, that's right ? Because that's what you seem to suggest here.

You're obviously blind and deaf to the terrible way you treat you treat people. And I don't think that anyone will manage to bring you back to reason, the fact that there are human beings around you and that they can be truly hurt by the way you view them (like shit, basically).

This is more than what i can bear. I prefer to leave. Oh, and don't forget to make another post to justify why you're right and such a nice guy, and why I'm so horribly mean and unfair to you. You're so much better than the rest of the world, obviously.

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Thrasymachus

@Philip027:


Again, if you stop taking *other human beings* and treating them like they're totally foreign entities, you might actually get somewhere and make progress. That's something that's on you, not everyone else.

Your lame personal attacks are getting too transparent, all because I took away alot of social myths you like to believe in. If you are such an amazing ray of sunshine and I am the bad guy, how come you have racked up 5,400+ posts living socially online and not in real life? I thought the fault lied in me? Wouldn't I have to live online since I am so repulsive.

This is the problem with forums like this, alot of lonely people use it for surrogate socialization, form cliques and attack outsiders just for having unacceptable to them opinions or views. I have been repeatedly accused of being a weirdo, that it is just my family that has the cross to bear of failed/unhappy marriages, it has been suggested that intentional communities may not accept me, that I cannot talk to women. All for just giving some devastating stats and personal anecdotes about certain bedrock institutions and rites of passage.

You can play such games and sort of win on this forum, but even the people who believe in the sacred cows I don't want a part of are more hesitant to marry, less likely to have kids, more likely to have less kids, marry later, and divorce more often as the years seem to pass, etc. I wonder why? The verdict here seems to be it is my personal defect, I wonder how I got to be so omnipotent?

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Tarfeather

Disclaimer: I don't really agree with OP at all, but I think everything that I could say in response to them has been said already by others.

Why don't you interact with women the same way you interact with men ? Why should you treat people differently based on their gender ? Don't give me reasons for that please, just think about it. It's absurd.

Seriously? You know, I've been doing this all my life, going by this obvious seeming assumption that there'd be no difference. I didn't really keep any female friends.

There are some obvious reasons why you need to treat most women differently. On average, they have been educated differently, and they have different expectations to their contacts. In my experience they often expect to be coddled more and critizised and disagreed with less than my male friends. They're generally a lot more careful with who they give attention and take much longer to open up and trust.

Most men I know are aware of these differences and greater restrictions in the way you can interact with a woman. Many women, ironically, don't seem to be aware that the men in their lives are going out of their way to respect their feelings and emotional needs, when those men don't do that to the same extent with their male friends.

There are of course exceptions to this, and there are women who are being treated carefully like this when they don't need it. But I think those are pretty rare. I'd never treat a female friend the same way as a male friend, unless I absolutely knew for certain they'd be okay with it.

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Philip027
If you are such an amazing ray of sunshine and I am the bad guy, how come you have racked up 5,400+ posts living socially online and not in real life? I thought the fault lied in me? Wouldn't I have to live online since I am so repulsive.

If this is how childish and desperate you become to people who are trying to help guide you in a direction that won't alienate everyone you try to interact with, then here is my next piece of advice for you:

Do the females in your life a favor, and don't get involved with them. They deserve better than this.

You still think I was attacking you before?

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Telecaster68

Watch out Thras, here come the three billy goats gruff...

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Tarfeather
  • Be careful of the kind of vocabulary you're using. "Theory" means demonstrating something with the use of scientifically valid data for being read by scientists. This is just an Internet forum, not Nature, and unless you show me evidence of the contrary, I'll assume you aren't a scientist.

The word "theory" refers to "scientific theory" the same way "asexual" refers to "asexual reproductions". Words can have multiple meanings, and words change over time, often getting new meanings.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory

: an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events

: an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true

: the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject

Those are all consistent with OP's usage of the word.

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Thrasymachus

@Philip027:

Look guy I don't know who you are and don't care. I live in one of the most ethnically diverse places in the world, the outer suburbs of NYC in Northern NJ. I have about 30+ co-workers from all over the world. I get along with just about everyone. Am I friends with everyone of course not. Neither are you and you were such a fine specimen, why are you playing such harsh games pretending to know me personally?

Do I interact with women? How do you think it is possible to live not interacting with about half of the population? I just don't consider women, especially those I am attracted to as friendship material. And why should I, it will just lead to frustration being in close contact with someone I am attracted to.

Drop the crap. The type of shenanigans and drama fit for soap operas in this thread is I why I don't want to interact with most of the population. I seriously hope you don't pretend to be slighted by the cultural mainstream for not fitting in real life, when you just use the internet to become a pathetic sort of cyberbully. How do I know all these people with thousands of posts personally attacking me are not online friends with each other, I can see this board has a chat feature even? There is also IRC, PM and email for such people using this place for surrogate socialization and drama to spread drama dust, form cliques and attack the "enemy".

I have never fit in my whole life and don't want to. I am vegan, straight edge, an anti-materialist and am car-free. I get alot of shit, but deep down even though I am nothing like them my co-workers and few friends respect me because they know I am loyal, and don't pretend to be something I am not to fit in. It would be hard, almost impossible for someone like me to get a mate, even if the walnut only had one shell so to say. Logistically as a vegan with no car, most women live too far and don't share my values anyway. I would end up trapped juggling balls and likely end up one of the elderly couples in the AARP study who while married for decades still felt their spouse as a stranger.

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Tarfeather

Watch out Thras, here come the three billy goats gruff...

Well, I read that story and I can't pretend to have any idea what you're saying. :D

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Telecaster68

There's one other character in it, apart from the goats...

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Tarfeather

Are you calling OP an ogre? Or.. wait. OH

Okay, that was subtle.

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Telecaster68

I can be, occasionally...

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