Question for sexuals: When do you 'expect' sex?

[Telecaster68]

Once the need has been stated and it's still not enough to make a change in the relationship, there is just no point reminding the partner of the fact, over and over and over.

^^

My reference to "whining" comes from reading very repetitive posts from sexuals who say they've been in a marriage with an asexual for many years and the asexual has never shown liking for sex, and the sexual is still upset about it and says they are "trapped" in the marriage. At that point, it sounds like whining to me.

Posting on here about it isn't whining about it to your partner, so now your point is no whining on a support forum either?

[timewarp]

@Panficto (you don't make it easy to quote, you wrote so much :P )

Your concept of physical attraction sounds good to me, the only objection I have is that this word is frequently used as a euphemism for sexual attraction, so there might be some confusion included in the package. I do experience a kind of attraction which is about cuddling and kissing, but not beyond, so yeah, kind of what you say I guess...

The idea of a dedicated "whining space" is not bad (how about "allosexual musings and rantings"?), but I'm strongly in favour of having it here. I think we should embrace all kinds of input from allosexuals, even if we don't like it. Sure, there is a limit, but that is if somebody denies the existence of asexuality and/or tries to change us. Moaning is still totally okay for me. This is certainly not an easy community to be around, because people are extremely passionate (to say the least) in discussions, so why try to get rid of just one aspect of that?

And, just mentioning, I will always complain that cats try to steal my food, even if I know I cannot do anything about that...

[Ms.White]

@SquidKen

I'd say most of them hope to get it as soon as they can within the bounds of their personal morals. These

morals vary greatly between people, and sometimes they violate these morals anyway. As far as I can tell,

there are very few sexuals who will accept celibacy, even if they want to be celibate.

After all, Richard Sipe, "former Benedictine monk-priest of 18 years, a sociologist and author of six books about Catholicism"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sipe

estimates "that at any one time 50 percent of priests are practicing celibacy" http://www.virtueonline.org/only-half-catholic-priests-are-celibate-mike-mcmanus

[Frigid Pink]

Once the need has been stated and it's still not enough to make a change in the relationship, there is just no point reminding the partner of the fact, over and over and over.

^^

My reference to "whining" comes from reading very repetitive posts from sexuals who say they've been in a marriage with an asexual for many years and the asexual has never shown liking for sex, and the sexual is still upset about it and says they are "trapped" in the marriage. At that point, it sounds like whining to me.

Posting on here about it isn't whining about it to your partner, so now your point is no whining on a support forum either?

I can't control others or their behavior, therefore, I've decided to control myself and my own behavior and set and enforce boundaries around these types of posts and threads. Basically, I've decided that it's best that I don't read or respond to these types of posts and threads. It upsets me to do either and the people who make these original posts and threads don't seem to want advice and seem to simply want a place to vent and get support for a situation they've already made a choice to stay in. I only have so much to give in my day to day life so I have to set limits and it's very draining to engage in these types of posts and threads, so, I choose to no longer do so. I recommend that others do the same if it upsets or bothers them as much as it has and does me. I've done the same in my personal life offline as well (and I'm much happier for it). I need to set limits with others when they need to vent. It's okay to vent, it's okay to listen, however, there are limits, and we have to be the ones that set and control those for ourselves. We can't expect others to be the ones to change.

[Starlit Sky]

Maybe I just have a different idea of what "whining" entails (particularly since I wouldn't call what I'm talking about "whining" in the first place). It's one thing if the person goes on a bitch-fest about how horrible it is to be with their partner, but it's quite another if they make a comment about how they wish that their partner would be happy with having more sex. The latter is fine and should be embraced; the former is rude and should be kept more private.

[Sally]

Once the need has been stated and it's still not enough to make a change in the relationship, there is just no point reminding the partner of the fact, over and over and over.

^^

My reference to "whining" comes from reading very repetitive posts from sexuals who say they've been in a marriage with an asexual for many years and the asexual has never shown liking for sex, and the sexual is still upset about it and says they are "trapped" in the marriage. At that point, it sounds like whining to me.

Posting on here about it isn't whining about it to your partner, so now your point is no whining on a support forum either?

When someone's complaining about not having sex, or enough sex, or the right kind of sex, after they've been with their partner for like 15 years, I think the time for whining is over. Speaking para-legally, the statute of limitations has tolled and they should just either leave or shut up.

[Telecaster68]

Luckily, nobody made you queen.

[Guest]

Once the need has been stated and it's still not enough to make a change in the relationship, there is just no point reminding the partner of the fact, over and over and over.

^^

My reference to "whining" comes from reading very repetitive posts from sexuals who say they've been in a marriage with an asexual for many years and the asexual has never shown liking for sex, and the sexual is still upset about it and says they are "trapped" in the marriage. At that point, it sounds like whining to me.

Posting on here about it isn't whining about it to your partner, so now your point is no whining on a support forum either?

When someone's complaining about not having sex, or enough sex, or the right kind of sex, after they've been with their partner for like 15 years, I think the time for whining is over. Speaking para-legally, the statute of limitations has tolled and they should just either leave or shut up.

Also, there are celibacy support forums specifically for that. People who have been forced into sexless situations with their partners for whatever reason can go there and support each other. This isn't exactly a "support sexuals forced into celibacy" website, but there *are* places specifically for that, where asexuals don't have to see people saying that their lives are miserable because of asexuals ..which is how it always feels to me when I see the moaning threads here. Like okay great we go through massive amounts of shit trying to live as asexuals navigating relationships etc, now we also get to see people bitching about us for exactly the reaons that cause so many of us so much frikken misery in the first place (wishing we could want sex like "normal" people, but not being able to want it.. and *knowing* that makes our sexual partners utterly miserable and feeling like we'll never be able to be happy because of it *sigh*)

[Telecaster68]

Genuinely interested in what those sites are, because I couldn't find them.

[Lixt]

Sure there's at least a dozen of pages on reddit alone.

[Tarfeather]

Between TRP, PUA and robots.. there's really not that much solid advice out there. AVEN is the only site we have because any other place we'd be called stupid for even staying with a partner who doesn't want sex.

[Telecaster68]

Sure there's at least a dozen of pages on reddit alone.

/DeadBedrooms is the only one I know of (and if you think I'm stroppy and self pitying, you should read the posters there) . /sex is about having sex rather than not having it, /relationships is about all manner of things. /Lowlibidocommunity is for people with low libidos and pretty much dead. What other ones do you have in mind?

The blurb for Friends, Partners and Allies says it's for support, but since apparently asexuals find this annoying, maybe it could be changed to 'a place for sexual partners to STFU while asexuals explain to them what sex is all about'?

[Lixt]

You can vent. But you'll keep getting "then why the fuck are you staying" and "no that's not actually something you have the right to ask/push for" and "this is ethically very dangerous". I know how those places end up with critical levels of self pity, very rapey statements, and your usual misogyny and PUA, almost like those kind of vents need to be reality-ckecked and not just patted on the shoulder. They get toxic really fast.

[Telecaster68]

I don't mind opposing points of view - it's being told to shut up that I object to.

And in a relationship, both partners have a right to ask for their needs to be met, whether that's sex or no sex. It's what happens after that request that's the issue. I know many asexuals aren't comfortable about this, but sexuals aren't comfortable about no sex either.

You're conceding there aren't dozens of subreddits then, let alone other sites?

[timewarp]

There's also the "education" in AVEN. I really think the kind of problems that allosexuals deal with in mixed relations are part of that. Personally, all kinds of statements from allosexuals in the AVEN forums helped me a lot to understand what went wrong in my past relationship experiences with allosexuals.

Even if it sounds like whining from time to time (to be honest I haven't seen that kind of thing yet, but yeah, fine with me...), I'm still absolutely open for having that kind of thing here. Unless people start talking absolute gibberish I'm sure I can take something helpful out of it.

[Lixt]

I am absolutely not checking with anything less than a 10ft pole, esp not on a phone. The number doesn't really matter, even it ends up being 3 pages fully dedicated to that issue. The issue itself is brought in countless pages, and isn't really struggling to find a place. Any page about relationships and sex will do, really.

And you haven't really being told to shut up. Asked why you keep asking, yes, on various occasions. Because honestly, why? Why do people ask something of someone one hundred times? Are they honestly expecting a different answer? Are they deaf to any answer that isn't the one they want? Are they cowardly trying to push their partner to explode, pack their shit and leave because they can't do it themselves? Do they want the moral highground about who leave the other over a matter of sex? Or is it just a petty, "this relationship doesn't suit me 100% so I'm making sure it bothers you too because your feelings don't get to be more important than mine"? Honestly, mostly I'm hoping it's just delusion (solution n.1), but I can't dismiss the others. Which is why I do not condone badgering a partner. Because they will start to ask what you're really asking, since you already know the answer to the "explicit question", so are you asking them to leave, or to be companionably miserable?

Most advices are the same regardless of the provenance, the main difference is how much pats you'll get. But in the end, things either works out or they don't. Deal with it or leave. Because really when talks were talked and boundaries were fixed there's nothing much to do.

[Telecaster68]

' "this relationship doesn't suit me 100% so I'm making sure it bothers you too because your feelings don't get to be more important than mine"? '

Your opinion that thinking my feelings are as important as my partner's is 'petty' is very illuminating. Since they are, and the consequences of her feelings are bothering me and continue to bother me, yes, I do think I have a right to keep bringing it up.

And a unilateral decision to remove sex from a relationship is more than it not suiting me 100%. Again, illuminating that you put it that way.

[Lixt]

What is petty isn't thinking that. It's true. What is petty is using it as a reason to purposefully bring down someone, "so we're even". A behaviour that should stay in Kindergarten.

[nanogretchen4]

I can't think of a single sexual on this forum who seemed motivated by vengeance, or who wanted to discuss these issues with their partner with the goal of causing their partner distress or goading their partner to leave.

[Lixt]

And I'm not pointing at anyone in particular. The behaviour does exist, though, and most of all, my point was about "What the fuck do you really want?" I have only listed possible examples, with interrogation marks.

Because when you are asked the same question (to which you give the same answer) over and over, you start thinking that either

1. The asker is batshit mad, really completely lost it, and/or in urgent need of an appointment with a neurologist.

2. More probably, the asker is not asking what they really want, i.e. there is some kind of explicit/implicit conversational fuckery going on. And you have to guess WTF it's really about. Some of the motivations I have listed, no doubt there are more. Good luck keeping them out of the implicit conversation/argument/emotional warfare, on each side. Which is why I do not condone "keep badgering", it's shit and it's going to turn everything to shit. If you stay, that's your (continuous) decision, don't blame your partner for it.

[Philip027]

As someone who otherwise has a pretty good relationship with their mom other than this one big thing (not to do with sex, but just in general):

Continuously bringing something up over and over and over and over and OVER... isn't convincing. It's just tiresome. Even more so if it's not something they actually have any control over. Who'd have thunk it?

There comes a point where you have to realize, you're not going to sway the other person any more -- if anything you'll just temporarily sway them just so you'll shut up for a little while. Maybe people like my mom already realize that, but it sure doesn't mean I respect them for it.

[Tarfeather]

? Are we looking at the same forums, because I sure don't see any sexuals here going "Wah, my partner won't have sex with me!" over and over.

I mean, to just list a few examples I'm aware of:

- Telecaster doesn't even bring it up to his wife outside of specific "Talks", and while I'm weary of his constant insistence to talk about how normal couples have sex, that's not exactly whining

- closetPonyfan is looking into poly

- Skulls and LadyGirl haven't talked about their situation with their partner on here for ages

- I haven't actually complained about the lack of sex with my partner in and of itself in ages. I sometimes do feel a little bitter about being a virgin in their mid-twenties. I hope you'll excuse me.

Can't even think of any other sexuals on here lately who make more than a couple of posts and are in a mixed relationship..

[Guest]

Wow, the anti-sexual/ sexual hostility of AVEN is really building, huh? I haven't seen crap like this thread in... well, ever since I've been here. Damn.

Asexuals are upset that sexuals discuss their problems in the Sexual Partners forum? What in the actual fuck?

Lixt - You realize that we don't have partners who are like "I can't have sex with you, please leave if you feel like you should to be happy." We have partners that are like "hang on we'll fix this I promise just give me another shot, you mean everything to me and I don't know what I'd do without you and I can't support myself and also I love you why don't you love me too?". Have you tried to leave someone you are in love with, who loves you back and who won't let you go, because they're not meeting a need that they refuse to acknowledge?

My partner said this weekend: "X and Y only have sex once a month and she's fine. I mean, she yells at him about twice a month and then they have sex, but she's fine with that cycle. Why can't you be?" Oh and this gem: "You're always telling me about asexuals who have sex for their sexual partners. Why can't we just do that. Just so you know, I'm never in the mood, so when we've had sex before it's not like I wanted it anyway." Then "I love you so much and I know we can work this out. We should go to counseling."

So you know what? Screw you guys who think we don't have a right to mention more than once that we'd like to have more sex. And those of you who think it's easy to walk away from someone who won't let you go. This forum exists so we can discuss this stuff... don't like it, then stay out of this one tiny little corner of AVEN. Dang.

[Guest]

? Are we looking at the same forums, because I sure don't see any sexuals here going "Wah, my partner won't have sex with me!" over and over.

Well, I can actually think of a few ... and mostly they rubbed me entirely the wrong way (and a few even ended up saying not wanting sex has to be a mental disorder). Though, most of those seem to have thankfully stopped posting while I was without internet.

Personally, I think the posts of how sexuals feel are useful to the community. Mixed relationships aren't easy. We have posts about the asexual side of why it's hard. Sexuals should be able to post about why it's hard on their end in this section. Both sides are important to read for anyone considering getting into one, or for those few posts every so often of "Can't I just hide I am asexual and hope they don't notice?" ...

Is it easy to read if you're in a mixed relationship? No. But, the truth hurts. Yes, a lot of mixed relationships the sexual side feels a lot like the people who post here. Some don't. There is no need to hide it. If you're worried your sexual partner might feel like some of these posters, talk to them. If you have past experiences that make reading it hard, avoid this section. Don't rip the support out from under people's feet.

Now, saying all that... I don't see how bringing up what one knows can't change in a relationship is helpful. It's one thing if the partner is trying to change something, or says this or that might change. But, if you both know there is nothing to be done about it, the point just seems to be hurting someone to make oneself feel better. Which is why I never brought up the lack of cuddling/physical affection after talking about it enough to figure out... yep he doesn't like it unless it turns sexual, I don't like it if it does. At that point, it became my problem and not an "us" problem that was fixable. Could I live with it? Could I not? My decision, had nothing to do with him anymore. And I really don't get staying if the answer to "Can I live with this?" is a no. Or just reminding a partner that I am unhappy all the time if they can't do anything to change that.

But... it's not really up to us to decide if something is an acceptable topic to keep bringing up to a partner. It's up to the partner. We can say how bringing it up over and over might be counter-productive, not helpful, hurtful, etc as advice. But, to tell them to go to reddit or some sexual site? All those subreddits and stuff aren't there to be supportive of mixed relationships. They are there and will say "DUMP THE FRIGID B**** ALREADY" or other such nonsense. A lot haven't heard of asexuality. A lot who have heard of it don't understand it, don't care about it or will put 100% blame on the asexual. Here, there can be support with understanding. That's what this section has been. And I am pretty upset with the suggestion that they should go somewhere else just because asexuals might not like hearing that their sexual partners are unhappy. That's not what we have ever been with mixed relationships as long as I have been here. Mixed relationships suck on both sides. And you CAN'T talk about it with "normal" people, cause they just DO NOT GET IT. This is one of the FEW places where people can find others that relate to how they feel. It's not the same as your spouse being paralyzed and wanting you still, but being physically unable. It's your partner being able and not wanting you. It's completely different. Just like asexuals can't just go to any relationship forum, sexuals with asexuals cannot either. They generally aren't looking for their partner to be demonized like would happen on a lot of sites.

[Guest]

I think communication... even if it's about the same old things, is still important. It should be kept to a minimum, but sometimes frustrations need to be aired. Plus, we build up resentment in our heads and once we talk about it, and realize that our partners actually do care and don't want us to be sad, it does tend to improve things. Basically...

"Leave me to my blissful ignorance and suffer alone" is not a good relationship motto.

[Guest]

I think communication... even if it's about the same old things, is still important. It should be kept to a minimum, but sometimes frustrations need to be aired. Plus, we build up resentment in our heads and once we talk about it, and realize that our partners actually do care and don't want us to be sad, it does tend to improve things. Basically...

"Leave me to my blissful ignorance and suffer alone" is not a good relationship motto.

I guess why I can't really understand it, is I don't see how the reassurance that the person cares and would give, if they had it to give, is helpful. But, I have never been one to need verbal reassurances, so perhaps that's my issue in getting it. I don't see how getting a person to repeat "I love you, it's just not something I can give you, I wish I could" can make an issue better. And being made to repeat it when there is no resolving the issue would be the thing that caused me to start building resentment. Like, I was constantly being reminded how I fail in whatever way, just to be reminded ... since there is nothing new to be said, no way to resolve it, so to me nothing to communicate about and the only response I would be able to give is "Nothing has changed. You want something I can't offer. I wish we could make each other happy, but this is an incompatibility that isn't going away". Which, is kinda basically what my last sexual partner said about cuddling, too. And I stopped bringing it up, cause it started feeling like poking an open wound just because I wanted him to bleed with me.

Buuuut, people are different. If discussing it every so often makes a relationship stronger, then that works for that relationship. As long as it's not being used to manipulate someone into doing something they actually don't want, to each their own.

[Guest]

I had typed out a long post, hit refresh to see if I missed anything, saw yours, and cut mine down to those couple sentences instead. There's a nuance here that's hard to put into words... it's the difference between asking for sex vs. talking about how you feel. And maybe it's not for everyone, but I personally have long held that if a partner wants to never have sex but expects their partner to stay anyway out of "love", then the least the asexual partner can do is listen when the sexual partner has the occasional breakdown about it. I think a lot of it comes down to compromise... if your relationship is one in which there is no compromise whatsoever, then I agree that talking starts making less sense. If, however, the asexual partner is like many of ours, where compromise works for a bit and then it kind of... slips away... talking can be helpful. Troubleshoot what went wrong, or simply discuss how you're both feeling about it... I dunno, I find communicating to be a bonding experience as long as it's infrequent and respectful. But, again, it all depends on the people and the relationship involved.

[Telecaster68]

"I don't see how getting a person to repeat "I love you, it's just not something I can give you, I wish I could" can make an issue better."

For me, and I think most sexuals in a mixed relationship, the insecurity is always there in the back of our minds. The less sexual and physical affectionate we sexuals get, the more we have to talk ourselves into believing it's still there, and getting the verbal input from our partners now and then helps shut down the insecurities more easily.

Maybe the flip of this would be asexuals anxious their sexual partners will leave because of lack of sex. It would be unrealistic of a sexual to expect saying 'no, I'm staying' just the once and that would be the end of it.

ETA: what Skulls said, with the slight qualification that being there for a partner to fall apart on, over anything at all, ever, any time, is one of the Things You Do In Relationships as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest]

Maybe the flip of this would be asexuals anxious their sexual partners will leave because of lack of sex. It would be unrealistic of a sexual to expect saying 'no, I'm staying' just the once and that would be the end of it.

Hrm. Well, for me, I wouldn't need it said more than once... unless something on their end changed and they needed to update me. But, like I said, I have never been one to get verbal reassurances like that, so that's probably why I just totally don't understand making a person repeat themselves.

I had typed out a long post, hit refresh to see if I missed anything, saw yours, and cut mine down to those couple sentences instead. There's a nuance here that's hard to put into words... it's the difference between asking for sex vs. talking about how you feel. And maybe it's not for everyone, but I personally have long held that if a partner wants to never have sex but expects their partner to stay anyway out of "love", then the least the asexual partner can do is listen when the sexual partner has the occasional breakdown about it. I think a lot of it comes down to compromise... if your relationship is one in which there is no compromise whatsoever, then I agree that talking starts making less sense. If, however, the asexual partner is like many of ours, where compromise works for a bit and then it kind of... slips away... talking can be helpful. Troubleshoot what went wrong, or simply discuss how you're both feeling about it... I dunno, I find communicating to be a bonding experience as long as it's infrequent and respectful. But, again, it all depends on the people and the relationship involved.

Oh. Well, I can understand communicating if the compromise needs reworked/changed/talked about, yeah. That's something that can be resolved and new things can be said about it. But, if nothing ever changes, or the only thing left to change that would make the situation better is the person changing - there is no resolution. Nothing to learn, nothing to know, nothing to discuss. Except to rehash "I feel bad cause you're this way and I kinda want you to be that way". That's the ones I don't get at all.

[El-not-so-ace]

It depends how much quality time and contact is built up but at the very least, I'd need a couple months. Many of my friends are the same but I guess as cautious girls, we don't want to just give in to anyone without really knowing them. Some exceptions arose for my friends, but a couple months seems like a good average for them. I've been holding out for years for relationships so what would I know... xD