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Telecaster68

For asexuals who just haven't been able to take it any more

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Telecaster68
killing someone isn't unreasonable. Probabilistically, 99.999% of life isn't complex enough to make killing it ethically questionable.

You just elided 'someone' into 99.999% of life forms.

And you're right. You've probably killed millions of bacteria in your time.

I'm not involving 'oughts' or 'shoulds' here. I'm saying that the overwhelming majority of relationships involve sex, and the overwhelming majority of people want them to. And humans observe this and conclude 'relationships include sex', so when they discover they're with someone who doesn't want sex and therefore their relationship won't involve sex (pace getting pregnant, doing it without desire etc.), their expectations aren't being met.

That doesn't mean you necessarily feel entitled to it, in the sense of being owed.

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Tarfeather

And humans observe this and conclude 'relationships include sex', so when they discover they're with someone who doesn't want sex and therefore their relationship won't involve sex (pace getting pregnant, doing it without desire etc.), their expectations aren't being met.

I don't see how 99% of relationships involving sex makes it okay to *expect* sex of your partner? If they don't want it, they don't want it, and this overrides any and all conclusions you may have come to.

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Telecaster68
I don't see how 99% of relationships involving sex makes it okay to *expect* sex of your partner?

We're using 'expect' in two different senses.

I'm using it in the sense of using observed behaviour (of anything, ever) to predict the future, which is how we are able to function in the world. I expect a thrown ball to follow a parabola because I've seen hundreds of balls behave that way. I expect sausages to taste a certain way because I've eaten previous sausages that taste that way. I expect children to misbehave sometimes because I've never experienced a child who didn't misbehave sometimes. There's no morality or sense of entitlement involved, it's just prediction based on previous observation.

You're using it as pretty much a synonym for 'feel entitled to', and this is the third time I've said that's not what I mean.

Disappointment (and maybe confusion, resentment etc) follows because the thing that doesn't happen means a lot to me. I might well have expected a partner to want to introduce me to her parents, because that generally happens too, but if that expectation isn't met, I'm not going to be disappointed because I don't mind that not happening.

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Mysticus Insanus

Used in that sense, what you definitely should expect is to be disappointed. And a mature person will accept disappointment without blaming it on another person - the disappointment results from your own expectation, not from the behavior of the other person.

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Telecaster68
the disappointment results from your own expectation, not from the behavior of the other person.

That was more or less my point, but that doesn't make the expectation unreasonable. It's based on accurate evidence.

If we went through life basing our actions on things that are very unlikely though theoretically possible, we'd never do anything. It's possible that when I step out of my front door, I'll be hit by a meteoroid, but it's very unlikely. If it had happened to both my neighrbours yesterday, I'd conclude (probably rightly) that it was far more likely and stay indoors.

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Mysticus Insanus
the disappointment results from your own expectation, not from the behavior of the other person.

That was more or less my point, but that doesn't make the expectation unreasonable. It's based on accurate evidence.

If we went through life basing our actions on things that are very unlikely though theoretically possible, we'd never do anything. It's possible that when I step out of my front door, I'll be hit by a meteoroid, but it's very unlikely. If it had happened to both my neighrbours yesterday, I'd conclude (probably rightly) that it was far more likely and stay indoors.

Then at least you realize by now that not getting to have sex is a problem that is yours and yours alone, not the problem of the asexual partner? That was a giant point of contention between you and me the last time we discussed this.

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Telecaster68
Then at least you realize by now that not getting to have sex is a problem that is yours and yours alone, not the problem of the asexual partner?

In the sense that if not having sex doesn't bother her, then yes.

But in another sense, I disagree. Relationships involve each side caring about how the other one is doing, and wanting them to be happy. And I do think that if someone says they want to qualify for the privilege of being in a relationship with you, they should (a) care about you and (b) make efforts to make you feel cared for. Saying 'tough, your problem' over anything that's upsetting your partner, when you can do something about it is a demonstration that neither (a) nor (b) is the case. By 'doing something about' I mean doing what they can and making sure their partner understands they're doing what they can to help a partner who's in distress - over what, doesn't matter.

I'm deliberately not making that point about sex, as sex or the lack is just one possible situation. It could be anything from lifts to work to domestic abusive. The principle still applies.

But for non-repulsed asexuals, I absolutely think some kind of sexual effort needs to be made (as it very often is, going by posters on here).

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Mysticus Insanus
Then at least you realize by now that not getting to have sex is a problem that is yours and yours alone, not the problem of the asexual partner?

In the sense that if not having sex doesn't bother her, then yes.

But in another sense, I disagree. Relationships involve each side caring about how the other one is doing, and wanting them to be happy. And I do think that if someone says they want to qualify for the privilege of being in a relationship with you, they should (a) care about you and (b) make efforts to make you feel cared for. Saying 'tough, your problem' over anything that's upsetting your partner, when you can do something about it is a demonstration that neither (a) nor (b) is the case. By 'doing something about' I mean doing what they can and making sure their partner understands they're doing what they can to help a partner who's in distress - over what, doesn't matter.

I'm deliberately not making that point about sex, as sex or the lack is just one possible situation. It could be anything from lifts to work to domestic abusive. The principle still applies.

But for non-repulsed asexuals, I absolutely think some kind of sexual effort needs to be made (as it very often is, going by posters on here).

Well, I still think that's going far beyond what you call "expectation", and deep into what I call entitlement. I wouldn't stand for that from a partner, and couldn't live with myself if I expected it from them, either. I'd find a partner's answer of "tough, your problem" to something that actually is my problem and not theirs an admirable display of independence, and independence is a mandatory key part of any relationship I'd ever want to be in, in the first place.

If they choose to help you despite it not being their problem, then be grateful, and make sure to express that gratitude - you didn't deserve the help, and they went above and beyond the call of duty for you. If they choose not to help you - then humbly accept that as your place. Being helped, just like having sex, is a privilege, not a right.

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Telecaster68
I still think that's going far beyond what you call "expectation", and deep into what I call entitlement

Personally, I find not thinking your partner is entitled to feel you care about them is odd, and would be a dealbreaker. It's possible to accept that something is someone else's problem and still want to help them with it. That would be two mature, independent people caring about each other in my eyes.

be grateful, and make sure to express that gratitude - you didn't deserve the help

You're saying the 'helping' partner is entitled to receive gratitude. That gratitude, and expressing it, is the exact flipside of my being cared for point.

Being helped, just like having sex, is a privilege, not a right.

I agree - but those qualifying for those privileges, and granting them, is part of what you sign up for when you embark on a relationship. I don't see what a relationship consists of if it's no different from how you are with non-privileged people. If they're not part of how you and your partner routinely work (and therefore expect to work), then I'd question the point of the relationship.

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Mysticus Insanus

be grateful, and make sure to express that gratitude - you didn't deserve the help

You're saying the 'helping' partner is entitled to receive gratitude. That gratitude, and expressing it, is the exact flipside of my being cared for point.

If someone goes out of their way for your convenience, in ways that you do not deserve and have no right to, you consider it entitled to think they deserve a clear and heartfelt "thank you", at the absolute very least???

Okay, yeah, you're definitely not someone I could stand being in a relationship with. Jesus H. Tadpole on a bicycle, dude.

What you call relationships is definitely not something I want in my life. Ever.

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Telecaster68
If someone goes out of their way for your convenience, in ways that you do not deserve and have no right to, you consider it entitled to think they deserve a clear and heartfelt "thank you", at the absolute very least???

Why do they deserve a thank you for their choice any more than you deserve them making that choice in the first place? They've done it of their own free will, if they can't deal with a lack of gratitude, that's their problem, surely?

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Mysticus Insanus

Their choice makes you life better, in a way you had no right to expect. Not acknowledging that is a profound sign of disrespect for them as a person. What makes you think they should put up with that kind of treatment by you?

If you think you need an outright selfless saint who serves on your every whim without ever wanting as little as a bit of respect and acknowledgement in return... well, then the world is better off if you stay celibate and single, for life. This attitude befits someone in kindergarden age looking at their momma; it's a horrid way to see other adults when you're grown-up.

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Telecaster68
Their choice makes you life better, in a way you had no right to expect. Not acknowledging that is a profound sign of disrespect for them as a person.

That's their problem. Just as saying 'tough, no sex' is my problem. Sure, I could choose to make them feel better by saying 'thanks' but I'd rather not. They have to deal with it.

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Mysticus Insanus

You leave me speechless.

Ok, it's final, then. I have no sympathy at all for the problems your attitude causes to you in your relationship. My only advice to you can be to grow up and get the hell over yourself already. I'm just sorry for a partner having to put up with your antics, and would encourage her to cut you out of her life and either go her own way, or find someone who respects her a lot more than you do.

*shakes haed in disbelief*

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Telecaster68
You leave me speechless.

Good, because my attitude is the exact mirror of yours over sex. You want gratitude because it's part of reciprocation, and showing caring in a relationship That's exactly why I want sex - it's a sharing, and showing each other you care. And I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a non-repulsed asexual to make some effort to show that, and neither do many of them, going by posts on here.

I wouldn't for a second act as I've just outlined in a relationship btw. I was making a point.

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Mysticus Insanus

Good, because my attitude is the exact mirror of yours over sex.

No, it's really not. The logic behind your views on "reciprocation" and "expectations" looks utterly twisted and self-serving to me. I can't see for the life of me how a healthy, respectful relationship would be supposed to work, built on those.
The first thing neccessary to be a good partner (and good friend, and good any-social-role) is to know your place, and to refrain from overstepping your bounds... and honestly, that seems to be something you are desperately lacking.

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Telecaster68

You being so needy for thanks seems like overstepping the bounds to me. Know your place. Stop being so entitled.

(in this scenario)

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Mysticus Insanus

No, it's just a sign of basic respect. And a "partner" (I use that term very loosely here) who doesn't even bother to show me that much can go f*ck themselves - both figuratively and literally. I'm under no compulsion to deal with people in my life who are on the emotional level of a three-year old unless I actually, you know, chose to have offspring three years ago.

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Telecaster68
No, it's just a sign of basic respect.

To some. Not to me. I could go without thanking anyone ever again. The very thought repulses me.

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Mysticus Insanus

Then you're far too entitled to have a relationship. Know your place, and surrender the idea of sex and relationships for the greater good of humanity. The world is better off with you remaining alone forever.

(I suspect that you're probably sarcastic/polemic for discussion's sake. But my reply is 100% in earnest on the premise that the statement is in earnest - people who think that way should be very firmly put in their place, not mollycoddled; and if they refuse to learn and adapt to a society of civilized adults, they should be socially shunned, plain and simple.)

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Telecaster68

It's only a word, what are you so bothered about? Why should I mollycoddle your need to be validated like that? It makes no difference to you if show you gratitude, you should have the self possession not to need external confirmation, after all, you know you did a good thing.

(and see post 285)

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Tarfeather

Their choice makes you life better, in a way you had no right to expect. Not acknowledging that is a profound sign of disrespect for them as a person.

That's their problem. Just as saying 'tough, no sex' is my problem. Sure, I could choose to make them feel better by saying 'thanks' but I'd rather not. They have to deal with it.

?! I'm sure you don't mean this the way this literally reads..

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Lixt

Wow there's some strong denial to recognise entitlement down there.

You can't feel disappointed if you didn't feel entitled to something.

If it was mere predictions and they didn't happen, you'd be surprised. Not disappointed. Not unless you let your feelings think you deserve a particular outcome.

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Telecaster68

Tar - no, of course I don't. Read post 285.

If it was mere predictions and they didn't happen, you'd be surprised. Not disappointed. Not unless you let your feelings think you deserve a particular outcome

If a stranger on a train said 'I'll buy you a coffee' and then didn't, you'd feel disappointed, but presumably not entitled to the coffee.

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Mysticus Insanus

Okay Tele, I'm done with this discussion.

I don't know how you manage to look yourself in the face with attitudes like yours (I certainly couldn't, in your shoes!), but in the end, it's your life. I'll just insist, non-negotiably, that you leave me out of it, and hope for others to have the strength and self-respect to insist on the same when running into you - for their sake, and for the remote hope that if enough people put you in your place, repeatedly, you may start realizing that something is indeed deeply counterproductive (to say the least) about how you see the world and your place in it.

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Lixt

Entering a relationship is not saying "I'll buy you a coffee"

If the passenger on the next seat order some coffee and don't offer me, I won't demand they do.

You can't put words in someone's mouth and then get angry when they don't comply to them.

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Tarfeather

Wow there's some strong denial to recognise entitlement down there.

You can't feel disappointed if you didn't feel entitled to something.

If it was mere predictions and they didn't happen, you'd be surprised. Not disappointed. Not unless you let your feelings think you deserve a particular outcome.

You very honestly can feel disappointed without feeling entitled. The difference is what you do with that disappointment.

Well, I still think that's going far beyond what you call "expectation", and deep into what I call entitlement. I wouldn't stand for that from a partner, and couldn't live with myself if I expected it from them, either. I'd find a partner's answer of "tough, your problem" to something that actually is my problem and not theirs an admirable display of independence, and independence is a mandatory key part of any relationship I'd ever want to be in, in the first place.

If they choose to help you despite it not being their problem, then be grateful, and make sure to express that gratitude - you didn't deserve the help, and they went above and beyond the call of duty for you. If they choose not to help you - then humbly accept that as your place. Being helped, just like having sex, is a privilege, not a right.

Hahah, I think lately I actually understand what you mean by that stuff. I fully agree with you here.. Especially because even if this is applied to a very "dependent" relationship, the focus on gratitude instead of expectations will improve things.

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Telecaster68

FFS Mysticus, have you not read #285? I'm roleplaying.

Just to spell it out: your line on partners who don't suck it up when it comes to no sex is 'stop being so needy and entitled and respect my choice', and then bafflement as to why this is a problem, mixed with contempt.

In those posts (which, one more time, I'd never say to anyone for real) I've asked you to suck up not getting thanked for something you expected thanks for, along the same lines, using the same wording you do about sex, and you've lashed out pretty viciously.

The feeling of anger and hurt you're getting now comes from the same place as sexuals' anger and hurt over 'you'd suck it up if you loved me' sexual rejection. You feel like your legitimate needs are being dismissed. I explained this several posts back, and you're way bright enough to work it out anyway. But the emotion gets in the way, apparently.

I didn't do this as some kind of warped attack, just as another tack by way of communicating that experience as cool calm rational discussion didn't seem to be working.

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Mysticus Insanus

You very honestly can feel disappointed without feeling entitled. The difference is what you do with that disappointment.

First step: Own it. Don't project. ;)

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Telecaster68
If the passenger on the next seat order some coffee and don't offer me, I won't demand they do.

That wasn't the scenario, and it doesn't correspond to the situation I was positing my OP.

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