Religion

[vits3k]

There is an article in this week's New Yorker about Phillip Pullman, who wrote His Dark Materials.

Pullman is an atheist, but with moral convictions based partly in his own somewhat religious upbringing.

I found it an interesting complement to this discussion.

[rlib]

I'm Jewish by birth - whatever that means. I know it has all sorts of legal implications should I ever want to move to Israel or whatnot, but otherwise - why should children be more likely to follow the belief systems of their parents? Isn't that brainwashing?

I think the fact that there are so many religions, some of them contradictory, proves that belief doesn't imply truth, which probably means I fall under agnosticism. It doesn't mean I don't pray or even that I don't have my own beliefs - it just means that I try to respect others' and look with scepticism upon any attempts to masquerade beliefs as facts, even if they're beliefs I agree with.

Trying to see all points of view can bite you in the rear, though, when you start thinking well, racists are human too - so how can they believe something so stupid? which can lead to infinite mental loops :P

*goes to read up those quaker sites*

[Sirach]

Kemetic Orthodox First (I honor my "parents and beloveds", and ahku (anscestors) first), Ecclectic Wiccan second (any other purpose i feel the need to serve in more "coventional" ways).

I have specific duties, rituals, heka (magick) for the KO, (an over simplified description would be Ancient Egyptian Reconstructionalism, but that is really to simple of description) as for what I mean by "conventional", what ever need is most suited, meditation/path working, sympathetc magick, ie candles, herbal, energy work, etc and, readings, etc.

In such a topic like this where there is bound to be differanc of opinion, and hopefully everone here is mature enough not to curse anyone for their differances, there is this I came across some years ago, and I really fell in love with it, that could be applied to any belief system out there:

http://www.fleurdelis.com/desiderata.htm

especially the part:

"Therefore be at peace with God,

whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations,

in the noisy confusion of life,

keep peace in your soul. "

Take that to heart

Ahnk, Udja, Seneb (Life, Health, Peace)

Taheri

[/url]

Sorry for my lack of knowledge. Seeing 'coventional' I assumed that it was a pun off the word 'coven' for many mainstream Wiccans. My Wiccan path was never as structured or organised, but it was more of a 'go-with-the-flow' mentality and the simple love and ackowledgement of the Goddess and the God and the Deity's creation of Mother Earth.

And thank you for sharing the Desiderata. It is indeed beautiful to read and inspiring.

[Tanwen]

I'm Jewish by birth - whatever that means. I know it has all sorts of legal implications should I ever want to move to Israel or whatnot' date=' but otherwise - why should children be more likely to follow the belief systems of their parents? Isn't that brainwashing?

I think the fact that there are so many religions, some of them contradictory, proves that belief doesn't imply truth,

1. It is not 'brainwashing' it is natural for parents to pass on their xperiences and knowledge. It is how parents repond to challenges that is the important thing, it is also natural for the next generation to challenge the previous. In this respect I think you have it easier than mine, we were expected to accept the mores of our parents.

2. No religion has the possession of 'right' each is equally valid, as a human parent I accept that my children are individuals. God (however you concieve Him/Her) has a far greater acceptance that children are individuals. The Bhuddists say that each must find his own path up the mountain.

[cait]

As far as beliefs go, I believe in God, but not in a superficial way. Not to say a lot of people do, but well ... a lot of people do. People who are religious just because they don't know anything else. I don't know anybody like this. but I am scared of churches because I am a little afraid of finding people who are that way. I didn't enjoy attending family mass at a Roman Catholic church. It was scary.

On a personal level I'm just really not meant for community based interaction. So I do look for my own path, and generally keep it to myself.

As for religion, my parents are into Shambhala Buddhism. Here is the guy who brought Buddhism to America: http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/vctr/index.html. I was there in Vermont when he was cremated when I wasn't even a year old yet. I have never myself studied Buddhism, especially considering all those big Tibetan words they use to describe stuff. Yeah, that's just right over my head.

But back to beliefs, mine would probably most closely resemble Buddhism for sure. Obviously I'm going to have had an influence from my parents. I'm also very fond of certain New Age ...things...such as tarot and astral projection and palmistry and astrology. Anyway, the existance and structures of energy is very fascinating and the ways of reading it is as well. This goes for science as well as the more mystic stuff. And I just see it all as interconnected with the existance of God. But I really know nothing when I am not reading about it. My brain is funky that way.

I find Christianity extremely interesting, as it has had such a very huge impact on Western culture and history, and there is much good literature on it, and so on. And if I was not so all over the place and air-headed, I might have been a Christian, who knows.

Ooh, yes, and somebody mentioned Unitarian Universalism. I never knew what that was! There is a church just down the street, practically next door to my building. I was wondering about it.

Also, here is a website on Scientology: http://www.scientology.org/ I know virtually nothing about Scientology, but I just thought of it, because on the other side of my building down the street is a church of Scientology. I keep walking by it and thinking, "what the..." but never think to look it up. Anyway, yes, there are some very interesting religions floating around.

[Pobblebonk]

I'm Jewish by birth - whatever that means. I know it has all sorts of legal implications should I ever want to move to Israel or whatnot, but otherwise

Religiously it doesn't have any particular significance - there are, after all, numerous secular Jews. There are even those who've converted to other faiths, though I believe mainstream Jewish opinion frowns on this, at least in Israel (there was an interesting documentary in the UK a while ago featuring a young Jew who converted to Islam - but his family's discomfort could have had a lot to do with the fact that they were living in Israel and he chose a radical branch of Islam).

On the other hand, I don't think Judaism is something you can convert *to* - it's not a proselytising religion; essentially it's a tribal faith, the religion of the Jewish people. So while you don't have to be religious if you're Jewish, as I understand it you do have to be ethnically Jewish to adopt Judaism.

- why should children be more likely to follow the belief systems of their parents? Isn't that brainwashing?

It's normally referred to as "upbringing", and it's a basic phenomenon in all areas, not just religious belief - it's common in terms of political beliefs, for instance, and even in career choices. It isn't a matter (normally) of parents consciously brainwashing their children, it's simply a byproduct of the fact that children tend to spend more time with their parents than anyone else during their formative period, and so they get a lot of exposure to their parents' views and less exposure to alternatives.

Phil

[Silly Green Monkey]

I'm sure Cate would disagree with you there, she converted to Judaism.

[rlib]

Anyone can convert to Judaism, regardless of ethnicity, although conversion to orthodox Judaism is a longer process than conversion to many other religions. I've also heard that rabbis are supposed to suggest that prospective converts consider other religions first.

Jews did proselytize historically, but stopped possibly due to a combination of internal decisions and pressure from Christian or Islamic governments. For example, Jews in many Islamic countries were considered Dhimmis (Wikipedia Article) and forbidden to proselytize Muslims.

It is how parents repond to challenges that is the important thing, it is also natural for the next generation to challenge the previous. In this respect I think you have it easier than mine, we were expected to accept the mores of our parents.

I'm not sure how much challenging I've done since my family is fairly secular. Which is partly what I meant - a close friend of mine is highly observant, yet both he and I are 'Jewish by birth'. Presumably differences in observance applies to many religions, but because Judaism is a culture/ethnicity as well as a religion, someone could describe themselves as a 'Jewish atheist' while a 'Christian atheist' might leave out the Christian part?

[Pobblebonk]

Anyone can convert to Judaism, regardless of ethnicity, although conversion to orthodox Judaism is a longer process than conversion to many other religions. I've also heard that rabbis are supposed to suggest that prospective converts consider other religions first.

Jews did proselytize historically, but stopped possibly due to a combination of internal decisions and pressure from Christian or Islamic governments. For example, Jews in many Islamic countries were considered Dhimmis (Wikipedia Article) and forbidden to proselytize Muslims.

Thanks - that's quite revealing, and it's this sort of information I look for regarding different religious traditions. So where does the history of Jewish proselytisation originate? As I understand it (and as was explained by an orthodox Jew on a British chat show focusing on beliefs in God a while ago), Judaism as a religion is intrinsically tied to the Jews' belief in themselves as the people of God. I'm puzzled as to how that's compatible with efforts to convert others to the faith. As I understand it, the Jews don't have an equivalent of the Christian-Muslim belief that nonbelievers' souls can only be saved by belief in God (do the Jews, in fact, have a concept of an afterlife for the faithful?)

Phil

[Squick]

I'm Christian, Protestant, no denomination (but not non-denominational, which is a denomination, ironically).

I was brought up Methodist. Then my parents started going to a Presbyterian church when we moved. I did my own thing for a while and then went to a Baptist church (but I didn't consider myself Baptist; I just loved the pastor). Now, honestly, I don't go to any...except for Christmas, etc. Ahem. But now my parents are Episcopalian, and my brother's converted to Catholicism, and his wife was raised Wesleyan but switched to Episcopal because she didn't care for the "no alcohol" rule of Wesleyianism. ;)

[Brodertun]

I'm atheist/humanist.

I was brought up Methodist. Although by 10, I didn't believe in God. Once I earned my bible I stopped going willingly.

And I most certainly wasn't going to go about believing in God if that meant I was going to end up acting like everyone at church, including my family.

Even today it is sometimes hard for me to bite back my tongue when they speak of their hatred and intolerance to nonchristians. People are people. It doesn't matter how they live their life if it hurts no one at all. That's one thing my family and I can't see eye to eye on.

[Tanwen]

I had a friend who always claimed to be a 'born again pagan'

[Tanwen]

*Yes, I once had a friend...twice if you count my friend in Primary School*

[Hallucigenia]

Thanks - that's quite revealing, and it's this sort of information I look for regarding different religious traditions. So where does the history of Jewish proselytisation originate? As I understand it (and as was explained by an orthodox Jew on a British chat show focusing on beliefs in God a while ago), Judaism as a religion is intrinsically tied to the Jews' belief in themselves as the people of God. I'm puzzled as to how that's compatible with efforts to convert others to the faith. As I understand it, the Jews don't have an equivalent of the Christian-Muslim belief that nonbelievers' souls can only be saved by belief in God (do the Jews, in fact, have a concept of an afterlife for the faithful?)

[NOTE: I am not Jewish and anybody who actually is religiously Jewish should feel free to correct me on any of this if it is wrong.]

Jews are the chosen nation, but there are several Biblical records of people converting and joining the chosen nation, such as Rahab the prostitute from Jericho and Ruth the Moabite (who has an entire book of the Bible named after her). Despite some lack of differentiation between heaven and hell, it's clear that there are blessings that go along with being in the chosen nation if you follow all the correct laws that go with it, so I can see how you would want others to enjoy these blessings.

Plus, one more person in the Jewish nation, one fewer person to make war against the Jewish nation...

[vits3k]

"According to Bill Bryson in his book 'A Short History of Nearly Everything', the vigorousness of a man's beard growth is proportional to the number of times he thinks about sex. This being the case, Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams ought to be ashamed of himself. Filthy beast."

Mrs Yeoman, Kidderminster

http://www.viz.co.uk/letterbocks/letterboc...tory.php?id=183

[Kensta]

A practicing Athiest

[Amaranth]

I'm Roman Catholic. Yay for us. :)

[Guest brain burner]

I suppose I would call myself Agnostic because I dislike the radical rejection of religion usually associated with Atheism. Though, I'm Atheist in the sense that I view religion as a cultural and moral supplement rather than any kind of inherent truth.

I have a friend who is deeply christian and often tells me of theologists who have disproven scientific theories such as evolution. Evolution is just that, though... A theory. But it seems as if many people, upon hearing that I am an athiest, automatically say "Oh, so you think we came from monkies?". :roll: I just don't see why some people feel the need to prove their religion, by scientific means or otherwise, as universal truth. (In the athiest's case, the disproving of all religions)

[Brodertun]

I am an atheist, but if you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that god/gods are real I'll be a believer.

[Wild Seven]

Belief isn't about proving it. Belief is about belief. You don't believe something necessary from the lack of data, but because of decision to believe so. Of feelings. Of inclination toward it. It leaves the concept of intellect going first far behind.

Edit: I don't want this to sound like flaming anybody or something near that. I know that Triple A's post, which was my general post reaction on, was most probably meant like something else, for example a kind of thing that are said about anything people just consider an option, but don't search actively. Hope I didn't seem offended and didn't offend anybody else.

I'm a humanist/ theist-agnostic. Or I refefine it- I'm humanist. Oh, that's too long. I'm human. Sounds better.

[Brodertun]

I only belief in that which can be proven.l Therefore my beliefs are about proving things. I think believing in things for which there is no proof is downright silly and can have some dangerous consequences. The basis for that religion I used to belong to supporting atheism.

[Brodertun]

Oh and there really is no reason for all of this "i hope I didn't offend" etc.. comments I keep coming across by everyone, seemingly directed toward me.

I've gotten my two best AVEN friends from arguments we had that caused the mods to lock the thread.

[Orbit]

I have to disagree with you a bit, Nat...

Belief requires evidence for EVERYONE - it's just a case of what do you count as 'evidence'. I look at it as 'Truth on Trial' with the person who'se belief is being decided playing both Judge (who admits evidence and permits witnesses or stops the lawyers) and Jury (who actually listens and decides the case)

I'll start another thread on it though - so as not to hijack this one.

hawke

[DarkcatXXC]

I don't follow organized religion, and I don't belive in a sentient god. I think that everybody's got something akin to a soul (material-force?), and some have more than others, and that out there, somewhere, there's a lot more of this same energy, but it doesn't think in the sense that we think and it most certinally didnt' create the universe or direct our actions. I think there's an afterlife, I think there's something more to this 'verse, but I also think that it could all be explained by science given long enough.

^_^

Or, alternitivly, I follow the Great Old Ones and make sacrifices to them in the dark of... I mean, um, nothing :P

(I'm kidding about that last part, I promise)

Agnostic here. Nyarlathotep, how much Lovecraft have you read? It seems like people in his stories only ever worship the Great Old Ones. Are there any who actually worship the Elder Gods? You've got all these people running around worshipping dark deities, but never any worshipping the good ones...

[Iosis]

I have a friend who is deeply christian and often tells me of theologists who have disproven scientific theories such as evolution. Evolution is just that, though... A theory. But it seems as if many people, upon hearing that I am an athiest, automatically say "Oh, so you think we came from monkies?". I just don't see why some people feel the need to prove their religion, by scientific means or otherwise, as universal truth. (In the athiest's case, the disproving of all religions

Evolution is disproven? I should have missed that one.

Actually with or without evolution, you may still believe in God. Ancient Greek philosophers believed in an Immovable Mover, if you apply that model to God, well, evolution must have a beginning, and you may put God above all evolution, i.e. he is the one who has started it and remains unaffected by its tides.

I'm somewhere in between humanism, agnosticism and deism. As a scientific theory I believe in the validity of evolution, but... social Darwinism is so dangerous.

Lovecraft... yummy.. I've just finished the Mountains of Madness.

[Islander9]

atheist/humanist here - anything that can actually produce definitive evidence of *anything* supernatural will probably change my viewpoint...alas, anecdotes, 'holy books', exploitation of the fearfactor & gullibility inherent in humans just makes me feel sadder-

[BroChaplain]

I grew up Baptist and believed it whole-heartedly, even got a seminary education. But after I started working at a church I realized that church work is just politics, putting a good spin on everything. Watching the current bout of inane partisanship I also realized that politics is just religion.

Right now I consider myself a total agnostic, not just in religion. Everything we know seems really good to us right now. We think we have a good grasp on things with our scientific studies. But, it's just a matter of time until people look at our "scientific advances" like we look at the flat-earth theories.

[Neurovore]

As I have said before, I am an atheist, and I always have been for as long as I can remember. When I was really young, I wondered why fairy tales were considered imaginary, but not god. God seemed like a fairy tale to me as well, since he was often depicted as doing the same sorts of things. I decided that god must have been imaginary too.

I do not feel any sort of despair or lonliness as a result of being an atheist. To me it would be like lamenting over the fact that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth instead of vice versa. It is just the way it is. What does it matter as long as the sun is still shining?

I do not believe that we are entirely alone in the universe. I think it is highly likely that there are aliens out there. They probably would look nothing like us, and they might not even share the same biochemistry. I am eager to find out what is underneath the icy crust of Europa, as there is said to be an ocean with the possibility of sustaining life underneath the surface.

[Naria]

I do not follow a particular religion. I follow the way of accension. Reserecting the body. Becoming immortal! Jesus was the example of this.

It is interesting in that one of the most importent things for a future immortalist to do is to overcome their addiction to sex. Perhaps we asexuals are ahead of the game. For myself I believe that I have had lifetimes of sexual relationships and have worked through these desires. I am blessed in this life for I am no longer ruled by sexual chemical reactions that keep one trapped here bound to the earth plane.

[Des]

>Hurls the grenade<

I'm a member of the Church of Christ, staunch and unyielding. I actually returned to church at the same time I returned to Aven a few weeks ago, for much the same reason.

For those not familiar, the Church of Christ teaches a very literal translation of the New Testament and often sermons will include Greek translations and etymology lessons. The COC is marked by a lack of instruments in worship (just us and Russian Orthodox there) and the belief that baptism is necessary for salvation. That said, there's no governing body saying "this is what our church believes" so every COC is a little different and no two members or congregations are alike. Demographically, COC are predominantly white for some reason, and the average church-goer is elderly. Lots of people join from other religions or from agnosticism late in life. There are more congregations in TN than anywhere else in the world.

Personally, I don't believe in hell or the devil; and I am much more religiously tolerant than a lot of people.