Enlighten me on this

[Telecaster68]

Sexual harassment is a legal issue that doesn't apply in this case

Depends if the employer has a sexual harassment policy. Imagine if the genders were reversed: three young guys pushing unwanted attentions on a shy girl who'd told them to stop.

[Guest]

To my knowledge (did I miss something?) Jade is dealing with one girl, not three.

Also to my knowledge, this girl is literally just talking to him. All friendly-like. In no way is that harassment.

And. Sexual harassment is a legal issue, HR policy or not. A coworker asking you out is not sexual harassment. There are two types of sexual harassment... 1) quid pro quo. Your boss says "fuck me and you'll get a raise"; 2) hostile work environment. Hostile work environment has an objective component, meaning that the judge or jury is asked to determine whether the behavior would be so intolerable as to force a reasonable person to quit their job. Some girl chatting up a coworker is not a hostile work environment.

[Telecaster68]

Law must be different in the UK. And also, workplace regulations don't have to be the same as the law.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Technically it is a form of harrasment if a person insists on a behaviour that makes another uncomfortable even if its not sexual. Though there has to be some reported history for it to take any effect

[Tarfeather]

Exactly my point. Men are always bitching about it, they get all dolled up and go out and hope a girl hits on them, and when one finally does, it's "slut" unless he finds her attractive.

In other words: both sexes are hypocrites.

Of course both sexes are hypocrites. The hypocrisy I was talking about is not in the actions of the individuals, but in the moral framework that supports them. An openly asshole guy who gets hit on can always fall back to being mean and cruel. An openly asshole girl can do the same, of course. But women are expected not to be openly asshole; They have to use more covert strategies, such as accusing the person in question of harassment of some kind. For most of us "civilized" people, a guy who is cruel and mean to a less attractive girl just for coming on to him would be looked down on. But if a guy comes on to a woman in a reasonably respectful way, and is accused of "harassment" and being "some kind of creep" just because they don't appear "attractive" to the woman, I believe that is equally cruel and mean. That's all I'm saying.

Edit: Regarding the current discussion, I don't believe it to be harassment in Jade's case either. But I'm extremely certain that there would be more of a bias in favour of it being harassment, if Jade were female and the other person were male, and that's what annoys me a little.

PPS:

Technically it is a form of harrasment if a person insists on a behaviour that makes another uncomfortable even if its not sexual. Though there has to be some reported history for it to take any effect

Yeah, you're right, that's harassment. Non-sexual harassment. Geez as non-native speaker I didn't even realize you could use the term that way until I read your post.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Thats something that held me back in a previous case where the person in question was too touchy bordering on groping. But since in the system, although by law its supposed to be applied to both sexes, Im afrid that a man filing for sexual harrasment done by a woman would be less considered if not laughed at in some cases (probably not at face value but who knows) because the mindset of it is that men cant be harrassed. Similar to how even today men are considered incapable of being raped but most people jump gun and can accuse a man of rape in a hearbeat.

Thankfully that person is someone Im no longer around much if at all but yea if a woman gropes and a man complains hes called a pussy/gay/fag and whatever other term people like to fling around but if a guy gropes a girl hes automatic ally a perv/harrasing/etc even when at times the women invite as Ive seen cases happen.

[Guest]

No, you guys just don't understand the law on sexual harassment. But whatever, keep claiming it's sexist. Far better than getting educated.

Technically it is a form of harrasment if a person insists on a behaviour that makes another uncomfortable even if its not sexual. Though there has to be some reported history for it to take any effect

Not true.

[Tarfeather]

Hahah, okay I just read page 2 of this thread. This is interesting.

I'm curious why you are having these kinds of issues, Jade. My girlfriend has master class "don't talk to me" body language, and it works perfectly (at least until I came around, hah!). She never makes eye contact. She usually stares at the floor, or at the blackboard, or at her feet. She radiates an aura of "Right now I'm not even aware anyone else exists", and that's because she isn't.

So I expect you're doing all those same things? And it's not working? That's strange. Maybe you're so physically stunning that it overrides all the other stuff? Hm, curious.

[Tarfeather]

No, you guys just don't understand the law on sexual harassment. But whatever, keep claiming it's sexist. Far better than getting educated.

Who, me? o_O

Technically it is a form of harrasment if a person insists on a behaviour that makes another uncomfortable even if its not sexual. Though there has to be some reported history for it to take any effect

Not true.

Don't know, could you back that up? I'm not a native speaker, so I can only rely on online search results.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/harassment

(either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.

It would still mean that what Jade is going through isn't (non-sexual) harassment as they haven't ever clearly indicated that it is unwanted. But the definition you quoted does somewhat align with this one from a third source.

[Autumn Season]

I would say that there are two kinds of harassment: Simple and extreme. In extreme cases one can sue the other. If it is not extreme yet, it is still harassment, but not on a legal level. In any case it is one person being annoying to another.

EDIT: But I would never accuse someone of sexual (or another kind of) harassment if I didn't consider it to be on a legal level. The reason is that while I am not talking about the legal kind, it sounds as if I am. And I can only imagine how scary that could sound. No matter how annoying I would find the other person, I would not want them to think I want to sue them unless that really is what I want to do.

Also, I'm pretty certain that Jade doesn't want to pick a fight with his coworker. So it is important to use respectful, clear words, that would not be misunderstood.

(How about using those words instead: Nuisance, annoyance, disturbance. Another option would be to avoid them completely and talk in a more gentle, but understandable manner.)

[Tarfeather]

I would say that there are two kinds of harassment: Simple and extreme. In extreme cases one can sue the other. If it is not extreme yet, it is still harassment, but not on a legal level. In any case it is one person being annoying to another.

Funny, that's the conclusion I came to as well. But we have the same native language, so I'm not sure whether that's confirmation of my intuition or not.

[Guest]

I would say that there are two kinds of harassment: Simple and extreme. In extreme cases one can sue the other. If it is not extreme yet, it is still harassment, but not on a legal level. In any case it is one person being annoying to another.

Funny, that's the conclusion I came to as well. But we have the same native language, so I'm not sure whether that's confirmation of my intuition or not.

This is my understanding of harassment too. Extreme harassment being the legal sort, simple harassment being the sort that you can have a chat with your boss about if a work colleague won't leave you alone after you have asked them to.

I think my thoughts on this topic have all been stated by other people all ready, but they basically boil down to: Talk to her and tell her to leave you alone (preferable politely), and also, keep in mind that different people have different personal boundaries and methods of interacting with people, and might not interpret their actions as flirting/ being sexual even if you do. Making sexual comments, physical contact, being friendly etc. can be interpreted as flirting, but it is possible that people acting this way are just being friendly in their own way.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the whole being seen/acting sexually, and sexual objectification being completely different things, that too. Personally, if I dress 'sexy' on a night out I expect to receive attention and don't mind it so long as no one is too pushy, I might even have fun flirting a bit. I do not like being catcalled in the street or having a conversation with someone who spends the whole time staring at my breasts.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Hahah, okay I just read page 2 of this thread. This is interesting.I'm curious why you are having these kinds of issues, Jade. My girlfriend has master class "don't talk to me" body language, and it works perfectly (at least until I came around, hah!). She never makes eye contact. She usually stares at the floor, or at the blackboard, or at her feet. She radiates an aura of "Right now I'm not even aware anyone else exists", and that's because she isn't.So I expect you're doing all those same things? And it's not working? That's strange. Maybe you're so physically stunning that it overrides all the other stuff? Hm, curious.

I dont have a good physique but I have had women say that I have a pretty face (how can they see thay is beyond me. I look at myself and wonder "what the hell do they find interesting in THAT?". I have at times tried to make it clear that Im busy but I guess that Im not doing it well enough through body language, which I find odd since Im usually easy enough to read so discomfort should be easy to see. Unless the person is either too set or dense. Perhaps I need to put on a really really pissed off face and be loud to get people to back off.

[Guest]

Little tip: Making yourself "unavailable" via body language and ignoring someone is a tactic many men employ to get hit on by girls/get sex. So, that tactic doesn't work too well for avoiding attention.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Please tell me your joking....

[Tarfeather]

Little tip: Making yourself "unavailable" via body language and ignoring someone is a tactic many men employ to get hit on by girls/get sex. So, that tactic doesn't work too well for avoiding attention.

Please stop, if I continue laughing I will wake the neighbours. :')

But yeah, it can be used that way. Body language is a terribly complex thing. I don't think that's Jade's issue, though. Seems to me that he is rather attractive, plus not having much of an intimidation/authority vibe, which makes him both a worthwhile and easy target. What my girlfriend does only works because she genuinely doesn't care about most people around her, and so she has that air of being "cool"/"undaunted", but since Jade is having such huge issues with women, I suppose he isn't really managing to give off that kind of vibe.

And yep, I totally get that that kind of vibe would make you more "desirable" as a man. However, it'll also make it harder to be pushed around, and so if Jade were in that situation, he would probably actually be better off, as his rejections would actually be taken seriously rather than ignored.

[Sally]

Please tell me your joking....

No joking; it's true. I've seen it happen for years.

[Lord Jade Cross]

So Ive been unknowingly telling people that Im available?

And what can I do to start proyecting an image that would get people to stay away, at least in terms of romantic/sexual interests?

[Guest]

Please tell me your joking....

Not joking. My partner used it when he was single and says it's extremely effective.

[Philip027]

No, you guys just don't understand the law on sexual harassment. But whatever, keep claiming it's sexist. Far better than getting educated.

Technically it is a form of harrasment if a person insists on a behaviour that makes another uncomfortable even if its not sexual. Though there has to be some reported history for it to take any effect

Not true.

I would like to know more about this too, because I would call that harassment, and so would every place I've worked at.

Also to my knowledge, this girl is literally just talking to him. All friendly-like. In no way is that harassment.

For what it's worth, I'd bet plenty of males have gotten the book thrown at them for doing just that with a female.

This sort of inequality was painfully obvious even just going through training/orientation at a couple of my workplaces, which had segments regarding harassment and basically amounted to "guys, make damn sure you watch out with what you're doing, because the implication is that girls are a lot more likely to sue your stupid asses (read: sue *us*, the company) than the other way around"

[Sally]

For what it's worth, I'd bet plenty of males have gotten the book thrown at them for doing just that with a female.

There's no "book" to throw at males who simply talk to someone.

[Lord Jade Cross]

I wouldnt be so sure of that.

[Erasmvs]

I've never been a girly girl, but when I was dating a sexual guy I tried to look and be more sexual, despite of being asexual. I did all of this because I wanted him to want me and love me, not because I actually wanted sex. So my intention wasn't to get him to have sex, but because I didn't want to lose him. Appearing unattractive to a sexual guy might mean losing his interest in you. I don't mind when a guy thinks I'm sexy, I love it, because from a sexual it means appreciation. It's only annoying when they perceive your sexiness as a signal meaning "do what you want with my body". These girls just want to feel appreciated.

[Lord Jade Cross]

So what would happen if a guy was sexual but appreciated you from another point that wasnt sexual?

[Sally]

So what would happen if a guy was sexual but appreciated you from another point that wasnt sexual?

That's not really a question that can be answered. What would happen would depend on the two people involved.

[Erasmvs]

So what would happen if a guy was sexual but appreciated you from another point that wasnt sexual?

That's the problem. Many guys don't appreciate girls in other ways, like romantically or emotionally. I'm not saying it's always the case, but in the relationships where this happens the asexual girl might feel she has to be more sexual in order to not lose her partner. If the guy loves the girl from another point of view that wasn't sexual, then she can be the way she wants, and not force herself to be sexual. That would be the ideal relationship for an asexual.

And sexual girls tend to be sexual because it's their behavior. However, they can be offended when they're appreciated for their "sexiness" only. I'm sure girls don't mind being thought of as being sexy, but when that's all a guy sees (a sex toy), they can be offended. However, that's not always that case. The guy can really love the girl, and not because of sexual reasons only, but his behavior can lead to misunderstandings.

And I'm sure this happens to guys too, I just haven't heard any cases yet. Like an asexual guy might want to please his girl, but then gets offended that he doesn't get real love. And when he's hurt, he might be afraid to ask for help and support from any other places, because society thinks guys have to be into sex, and if they're not they are labeled as "gay" (nothing wrong with being gay, imo), thus he's ashamed of his feelings and thinks he's weird. Glad we have communities like AVEN. They're extremely helpful. ^^

[Tarfeather]

These girls just want to feel appreciated.

In my experience girls would rather that I appreciate them as little as possible. So I don't think it's that simple or innocent.

It's interesting, really. I can relate to Jade not because I'm in his shoes, but in the exact diagonal situation. He's attractive, but has no interest. I'm unattractive, but do have interest. Both of us are completely fed up and done with superficial women who see only outer appearance and not the personality behind.

[Erasmvs]

These girls just want to feel appreciated.

In my experience girls would rather that I appreciate them as little as possible. So I don't think it's that simple or innocent.

It's interesting, really. I can relate to Jade not because I'm in his shoes, but in the exact diagonal situation. He's attractive, but has no interest. I'm unattractive, but do have interest. Both of us are completely fed up and done with superficial women who see only outer appearance and not the personality behind.

Well, I was just giving my opinion, because I'm a girl and that's how I feel about this whole situation, maybe many girls can relate. I don't know about other girls though...

[Telecaster68]

Many guys don't appreciate girls in other ways, like romantically or emotionally.

I can see how asexuals draw this conclusion, but it's (mostly) not right. Most guys do appreciate women like that, as well as intellectually, aesthetically, morally, and all the other ways. Sexual is just one way, but its absence is often a dealbreaker - just as other traits might be. If the relationship was a car, removing sex from the equation is like having a car without an engine. One of the key components that make it a car is missing, as far as sexuals (ie 99% of the population) is concerned.

Like an asexual guy might want to please his girl, but then gets offended that he doesn't get real love.

Please - sexual love is real love,just as love between friends and family is real love, or relationship love between asexuals without a sexual element is real love. Let's not make one superior to the other. Of course, the asexual might not experience sexual love as 'real' love, just as the sexual might not experience love devoid of sex as 'real' romantic love - and for sexuals, the two are so deeply entwined they're pretty much indivisible.

[Erasmvs]

Many guys don't appreciate girls in other ways, like romantically or emotionally.

I can see how asexuals draw this conclusion, but it's (mostly) not right. Most guys do appreciate women like that, as well as intellectually, aesthetically, morally, and all the other ways. Sexual is just one way, but its absence is often a dealbreaker - just as other traits might be. If the relationship was a car, removing sex from the equation is like having a car without an engine. One of the key components that make it a car is missing, as far as sexuals (ie 99% of the population) is concerned.

Like an asexual guy might want to please his girl, but then gets offended that he doesn't get real love.

Please - sexual love is real love,just as love between friends and family is real love, or relationship love between asexuals without a sexual element is real love. Let's not make one superior to the other. Of course, the asexual might not experience sexual love as 'real' love, just as the sexual might not experience love devoid of sex as 'real' romantic love - and for sexuals, the two are so deeply entwined they're pretty much indivisible.

I didn't say all the guys, I said many guys.

And yes, you're right. I guess the word "real" wasn't the best definition. Should I say, alternative love? Or?