Questions for Anyone Not Cisgender.

[Ricecream-man]

I want to start off by stating that this isn't trying to demean or belittle anyone.

I personally "identify" as cis-male not because I have a strong attachment to it but rather it's the easiest thing for others to identify me with and I'm not bothered by it. While I can't understand the struggles you may go through being non-cis I do understand the reasoning on a cerebral level.

So to the question,

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

[Philip027]

I personally "identify" as cis-male not because I have a strong attachment to it but rather it's the easiest thing for others to identify me with and I'm not bothered by it. While I can't understand the struggles you may go through being non-cis I do understand the reasoning on a cerebral level.

I'm largely like this. I go along with "male" because that's what I physically am, but in my mind I don't really recognize gender and don't feel like I have one.

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

Being that the only possible result I could see out of gender roles not existing is that gender would become even more meaningless than it already is, then yeah, I would view myself as even more inclined to just consider myself agendered.

[nerdperson777]

I'd say gender roles is a big thing for me. I would know I had a problem with my body but not sure why. If gender roles were more equal, I might have less of a problem. I think if there were no gender roles, my life would be a lot better.

[Kappamaki]

I get wary around questions like these, because I'm used to cis people asking them and following any answer with "Gotcha! If you were really trans, you would have answered in this specific way! This proves you're not really trans and are just [gay/confused/perverted/crazy/pretending/tricked], and by extension, so are all trans people!"

And this particular question is usually followed by a sentiment of "I look forward to the day that femme men and butch women can just be their true selves without having to transition and pretend to be the other gender just to be accepted." Which is horrifically wrong-minded, and kind of disgusting in that the person who says it thinks they know more about transgender people's genders than they do themselves while managing to feel good and enlightened and... ugh, it's so patronizing. I don't want your patronage! It's bad! You should feel bad about yourself for saying dumb things, not good! Ugh!

All that said, it's a pretty good question - the sort that's not easy to answer off the top of your head. I'd say that it's impossible for a society to have any gender roles without also forgoing any concept of gender. Essentially, this would have to be an agender society. I'm not sure if such a society can exist in a species with sexual dimorphism, but let's say it does somehow. In such a society, only people with body dysphoria would do things that would look to us like transitioning, but they wouldn't consider themselves to be transitioning to anything or to have some separate identity from other people. HRT and gender-affirming surgery would be treated as cosmetic - not like our world's "prove your trans based on our cisnormative conceptions and then jump through hoops and then don't get any insurance to help cover excruciating costs" cosmetic, but a "go to the pharmacy and buy some cheap drugs with no prescription" cosmetic. Except that some people would show a strong mental health need for stuff like this. I imagine doctors would be far more willing to deal with such patients than our world's doctors would be, since they won't have any transphobia and cisnormativity to work through. All cisnormativity is built on gender roles.

And once again I worldbuilt instead of answering a question about myself. I think... I'd still have body dysphoria and would have recognized it and dealt with it earlier if there weren't cisnormativity and the anti-trans stigma attached to it, but I wouldn't identify the way I do because I wouldn't have a concept of gender or consider any gender or lack thereof to be part of my identity.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I want to start off by stating that this isn't trying to demean or belittle anyone.

I personally "identify" as cis-male not because I have a strong attachment to it but rather it's the easiest thing for others to identify me with and I'm not bothered by it. While I can't understand the struggles you may go through being non-cis I do understand the reasoning on a cerebral level.

So to the question,

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

It's like being pushed off a cliff. It doesn't matter how I feel, I'm going to fall whether I want to or not, and knowing who pushed me is not going to get me out of my predicament.

Besides, who would CHOOSE to have dysphoria. It ruins lives.

[AveSatanas]

For me gender roles have very little to with anything and anatomy has everything to do with it. My reasons for not being cis are strikingly different from most and I express my gender variance in totally different ways than transmen or even non binary trans. Because I am not looking for a partner I am totally happy with the world seeing me as female. In fact I prefer it, but what I think of myself and how I would modify my body if the right process was available is another story.

I would be interested to hear what other people say, but you can't make a case against gender norms using me as an example, and I personally don't think a world with no gender norms would be a very fun place to live nor would it eliminate transgenderism which is what you seem to be hinting at.

[SirEl]

I don't really think of how identity connects to gender roles, I just see gender as a simple identity and what sort of anatomy you relate to. I feel like I can relate to all genders and sexes so I don't particularly identify as anything, however I do sometimes say I'm bigendered (man + woman) but that doesn't work quite right either. Gender identity isn't gender expression (the roles in society and how you act), I think it's more about which groups you relate to subconsciously and consciously and who you fit in with as well as want to be known and seen as. It's really difficult to explain. I'm not entirely sure about gender dysphoria, I don't get that much of it, although it's more about anatomy than anything else, you don't look the way you feel, which goes beyond expression and more into biology I think.

In the end it's the simple question of "who are you?" And you eventually end up with some answer one way or another (or at least that's what I think). ^_^

[Valiant]

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist?

Yes. I was raised in a largely neutral household where gender roles weren't enforced. Yet here I am, still at odds with the gender I was assigned at birth. If society as a whole told gender roles to take a long walk off a short pier I might be more at peace with myself, but I also might be even more confused because trying to find the source of discomfort would likely be more difficult.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

Hmm. I'm going to go with yes. Some of my discomfort stems from how society sees my body type as a breeding factory, some of it stems from how my body type is usually sexualised in the media, but most of it? Most of it stems from the disgust of its purpose and functions. This disgust isn't full-blown, but it's enough to force me to fall back into dissociation mode, something that took me a while to realise I was doing.

Basically, none of it (body dysphoria) stems from the association of traits, personalities, social norms of dress or activities. I've been breaking those since I was a kid and I'd sooner put those into the social dysphoria category than body dysphoria from my own personal standpoint.

[Kazu]

Gender roles is part of it for me. I do have some chest dysphoria though so if there weren't gender roles I don't think my gender would be as... not less important to me but I don't think I'd be as uncomfortable when referred to as my birth gender, I still think I'd feel as though both male or female don't fit me perfectly (..hope that makes sense)

[Ricecream-man]

I understand that it's not a choice and I wasn't trying to imply that at all.

I'm also not trying to say it would eliminate transgenderism. It seems that people are bringing a lot more history to this question than I expected and that's interesting in and of itself.

Gender as a concept is going to exist as there are certain differences across sexes as an average and the genders associated with them. I acknowledge that.

However, many of our societal gender norms have no actual relation to sex and the differences between sexes. I.e. things like clothing, colors, appreciation of dolls vs "action figures, capacity to comprehend higher learning in math/sciences. These are all things without any actual connection to being male or female but we've made them that way within society. I was wondering how much of *Gender* (not sex) was associated with these typical gender roles.

When it comes to tranSEXuality and body dysmorphia, I was curious as to how much of it was due to a body part's association with gender as compared to an inherent problem you might have with the specified anatomy.

Kappa, I'm not sure why the insults were thrown out, but I'm not trying to say I know more about transexuals than you do. I don't have any solid clue as to the why so I'm asking.

The only transexual person I've personally met was a MtF person from my school and she was kind of an asshole so I didn't really ask much.

[Ricecream-man]

Oh and thank you all for responding. This is a lot of information that I've never thought about quite in this manner.

[butterflydreams]

I personally "identify" as cis-male not because I have a strong attachment to it but rather it's the easiest thing for others to identify me with and I'm not bothered by it.

Even this right here I think shows a difference. How "easy" is it for me to identify as cis-male? In the sense that I don't have to do anything? Very easy. I can just do what I've always done. Not transition. Not think about any of that stuff.

But that comes at a heavy price. That life leads nowhere. That life consists of shutting down more and more elements of myself. Ignoring feelings I have. If it were easy in any way, shape or form to make that life work, I would have by now. But I can't. And now that I know there is another option, I don't think I could ever go back to trying to make the cis-male me work. It doesn't work.

So to the question,

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

Yes. I think Kappamaki describes the typical sentiment behind this question well (not saying that was your intent. It's a valid question when asked genuinely). I believe I would. I don't necessarily think that's the case for every single trans person out there though. Many might not. And FWIW, I believe gender roles will always exist. My "problem" is in my relation to others. How I relate to them, how I interact with them, how I act and am seen by them...lack of gender roles isn't going to fix that. People will always relate to one another in different ways.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

I'm not totally sure what you're asking here, and I don't know for sure how much body dysmorphia I have. All I know for sure is that I'm not a whole person living what I consider to be whole experiences as cis-male. My entire relationship to others is and would continue to be all messed up.

I think these are really good, heartfelt and honest questions you're asking :) I'll leave you with this one thought that I come back to whenever I have doubts about what I'm doing (which is often). If I were to strip away all of the world. No more concern about getting into relationships. No more concern about what I'm going to do with my life. All of that, gone. How would I want to see myself? How would I need to be in order to be happy as me, with no one else? Answer? As Hadley. Hands down. No questions asked. I don't know why that is, but it is. As her I'm my true self, my 100%, happy alone, happy with others, happy about living...like I used to be when I was very little, before school and socialization (genderization) ruined me.

[Kappamaki]

Kappa, I'm not sure why the insults were thrown out, but I'm not trying to say I know more about transexuals than you do. I don't have any solid clue as to the why so I'm asking.

The only transexual person I've personally met was a MtF person from my school and she was kind of an asshole so I didn't really ask much.

Ack! Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you thought those things or were saying those things. I was explaining that I sometimes get transphobic and/or ignorant comments right after questions like this, so I get wary. In the second paragraph I was insulting the people who expressed the opinion that if only we lightened up on the gender roles everyone would be cis, not you, and I'm so sorry I wasn't clear about that. Please don't think I was saying you were saying these things, or lashing out at you, or insulting you! I took it as an honest question and just wanted to explain that sometimes I hear questions like this (or this exact one) that are less in good faith than they first appear, and are rather set out like snares.

About the trans person you know in meatspace, a fair number of the trans people I've met can be really belligerent jerks. Hurt people hurt people.

[kelico]

Let's see how well I can answer these questions...they're definitely good and thought-provoking. I've only been identifying as androgyne for 6 months or so, but still, not cis!

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

I think...hmmm. Maybe not? I mean, like I said, I only learned about non-binary genders and the identity of androgyne fairly recently, but I always felt off when it came to associating with other females or feeling like a part of the female group. It's not that I've felt "more like a boy," but more...somewhere in between, which is why androgyne felt so right...and why I feel more content as myself identifying this way. If gender roles and stereotypes didn't exist (goodness, that's really hard to imagine), I probably would have remained cis-female. Then again, that is the gender I do identify as when it comes to strangers asking or checking off the M or F box on forms. :P So I'm used to it. Buuuut I do think there would still be issues. Issues that would remain and nag at me. Ones that would make me hesitate. *shrugs* This really is a hard question lol.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

Did you mean dysphoria? (I don't know, maybe dismorphia is another word for it?) If the social norms etc. didn't exist, I think I would still feel out of place in more feminine clothing or feminine other things. My personality and traits can be pretty darn feminine, I have to say, and I don't mind that. But I can't make myself be comfortable in things like makeup or dresses or push-up bras. :P My chest annoys me at times. It isn't so terrible, but it is enough of a dysphoria to make me self-conscious and uncomfortable.

I think I rambled too much and may not have answered the questions right lol. Ah well. I hope I made sense haha.

[Prairie]

If gender roles didn't exist, I'd still identify as an individual. I suppose if those gender roles didn't exist there might be a big palette of identities not assigned by others and I might identify as one of those.

Hard to say with relation to body. I think that society's labeling of bodies as being inherently some gender is a big portion and would be glad to uncondition that from my psyche. There still might be meaning in it based on universal symbology (e.g. low pitch means bigger and more powerful, due to physics) or inherent associations that might make my body seem foreign.

[Densoro]

I'm definitely agender because people insist on using gender as a classification, yeah. If people keep sending you invites to play the gender game, eventually you have to tell them that you don't wanna =P

If people were less concerned with gender though, I still wouldn't be, either. I wouldn't need a word for it because people wouldn't keep trying to throw gender at me to begin with. Treating me like my personality rather than my genitals would just be the obvious, unspoken thing to do.

[midnightdreary]

I was raised in a Christian environment, and if anyone knows about that , they know that most Christians follow strict gender roles. My entire family is homophobic, and they think that being anything but your assigned gender will "make you gay". I am female but have always been a tomboy. When I was younger I wore boy clothes and absolutely loved it, but only until my family decided that if they continued to let me do so, i'd "turn gay" when I got older, or "never be a girl". As a very young child I always wondered why I wasn't born a boy, and why I could not behave and dress like one. I accepted and still do accept the fact that I am biologically female, but I really don't like gender roles. I hate how everything for girls is pink and boys is blue..i don't see why it matters. I feel like as a child i was pressured so much to "be a girl" that now i resent it and am more gender neuteral..i still have gender issues...i haven't figured out what it is yet. I'm leaning towards agender maybe? but yes i do think the world's gender roles did influence it. they were forced down my throat so much and still are that i hate them and want nothing with them. maybe the fact that I'm such a tomboy is because of this..i don't know. i think gender roles stifle kids and even adults, because I couldn't dress or behave the way i wanted to as a child because of them and am still wary about it. i think it really depends on the people you're around too.

[littlepersonparadox]

I don't think a gender role free society would automatically create a agender society. Some people identify as a having some sort of gender not necessarily because they were assigned/behave that way but becasue they feel they are attached to that gender. Some people define gender identity as strongly coming from a internal rather than external place. As the star treck episode points out in the episode where they come across a non-binary society (lets put aside they don't address non-binary as a identity or explore that at all fully its just there for the story arc) there was still a trans-women within that society.

I id as multigender - mostly male but that's not becasue my prefered presentation or behavior is what many people would consider masculine. To me gender roles are already meaningless but gender as a internal identity isn't.

Having said that i do think there may be less dysphoria if i did live in a neutral society but that's becasue they is a prefered pronoun for me.

[Kappamaki]

I don't think a gender role free society would automatically create a agender society. Some people identify as a having some sort of gender not necessarily because they were assigned/behave that way but because they feel they are attached to that gender. Some people define gender identity as strongly coming from a internal rather than external place. As the star trek episode points out in the episode where they come across a non-binary society (lets put aside they don't address non-binary as a identity or explore that at all fully its just there for the story arc) there was still a trans-women within that society.

I don't think a gender role free society would create an agender society, but I do think a gender role free society is only possible in a society that is genderless. People might still have internal gender identities, but there would be no manner of gender expression, so these gender identities would be invisible. If there's gender expression, there's gender roles, so this scenario can't have gender expression. Without any form of gender expression, I strongly doubt there'd even be words for gender. People wouldn't think of themselves as having gender, even if they do. They wouldn't be familiar with the concept of gender.

There would still be people who go through transition for whatever reasons (perhaps because of dysphoria, perhaps not) whom we'd identify as transgender, but they wouldn't call themselves that, because they wouldn't be of a society that recognizes gender. They'd find us pointing out that someone's using HRT and medically transitioning, and therefore must have a gender identity, to be as ridiculous as aliens pointing out that some of us eat a lot of cheese and are therefore alaman, meaning they have nontypical hyria. Like, you assign some weird cultural baggage to cheese? Whatever, aliens.

[JAKQ7111]

I want to start off by stating that this isn't trying to demean or belittle anyone.

I personally "identify" as cis-male not because I have a strong attachment to it but rather it's the easiest thing for others to identify me with and I'm not bothered by it. While I can't understand the struggles you may go through being non-cis I do understand the reasoning on a cerebral level.

So to the question,

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

This is a tough question, but my best answer for now is "probably". My biggest source of dysphoria is with society and gender roles, for sure. The biggest triggers for my dysphoria are hearing words like "mansplain" and "manspread" or other such male-specific microaggressions, and those can affect me to the point of being incredibly self-conscious of my public persona, to avoid exhibiting behaviors that would put that disgusting "man-blank" label on me. Now, that said, I do have some body dysphoria, namely with my excess body hair, and I do desire a more feminine/androgynous physical appearance (and more opportunities to explore/use my very wide vocal range when singing), which I will be seeking ways to acquire in the near future.

[Heart]

About the trans person you know in meatspace, a fair number of the trans people I've met can be really belligerent jerks. Hurt people hurt people.

I've never heard it expressed so concisely and completely, but that is a deep, deep truth about humanity. Hurt people will always hurt other people. That doesn't make them bad people, just a common (but not always) reaction to being hurt. Unfortunate, but very hard to not do.

[Ricecream-man]

About the trans person you know in meatspace, a fair number of the trans people I've met can be really belligerent jerks. Hurt people hurt people.

I've never heard it expressed so concisely and completely, but that is a deep, deep truth about humanity. Hurt people will always hurt other people. That doesn't make them bad people, just a common (but not always) reaction to being hurt. Unfortunate, but very hard to not do.

Not always, sometimes hurt people do the opposite. Sometimes being hurt all the time makes you not want to let others feel the same pains you have. You've felt the pain, you've dealt with the emotions and you just can't bear to see others go through the things you have alone like you did. Knowing how much you just wanted someone to be there for you makes you want to be there for them.

[andreas1033]

I think alot of gender identity is people copying what they think males and females are. Most people do not really analyse themselves, because they normally have some sort of strong drive to find a partner etc, and do not really question the role of gender identity.

So i do think that society plays a part in deciding how the masses view what males and females are.

I doubt i would be any different in a society that analysed themselves more, and did not conform to normal gender identities. I would think i still would of had doubts, as i think its normal when your young, to think you are male and female, and thats it, and what genitals your born with is all that matters. Most people think this way, unless probably they are like people talking on this board.

In what ever world they build, society will always have an idea on whats normal, and kids will pick up on this. So when your at school, you will think in similar ways to most people, unless like us, you have serious doubts about your identity.

[Heart]

About the trans person you know in meatspace, a fair number of the trans people I've met can be really belligerent jerks. Hurt people hurt people.

I've never heard it expressed so concisely and completely, but that is a deep, deep truth about humanity. Hurt people will always hurt other people. That doesn't make them bad people, just a common (but not always) reaction to being hurt. Unfortunate, but very hard to not do.

Not always, sometimes hurt people do the opposite. Sometimes being hurt all the time makes you not want to let others feel the same pains you have. You've felt the pain, you've dealt with the emotions and you just can't bear to see others go through the things you have alone like you did. Knowing how much you just wanted someone to be there for you makes you want to be there for them.

You're right, I hastily generalised. I am sorry. There are always amazing people out there, I had a moment of cynicism, and I apologize :)

[Ricecream-man]

About the trans person you know in meatspace, a fair number of the trans people I've met can be really belligerent jerks. Hurt people hurt people.

I've never heard it expressed so concisely and completely, but that is a deep, deep truth about humanity. Hurt people will always hurt other people. That doesn't make them bad people, just a common (but not always) reaction to being hurt. Unfortunate, but very hard to not do.

Not always, sometimes hurt people do the opposite. Sometimes being hurt all the time makes you not want to let others feel the same pains you have. You've felt the pain, you've dealt with the emotions and you just can't bear to see others go through the things you have alone like you did. Knowing how much you just wanted someone to be there for you makes you want to be there for them.

You're right, I hastily generalised. I am sorry. There are always amazing people out there, I had a moment of cynicism, and I apologize :)

No, no. ><

You added not always as well. I meant to try and agree with you and expand on the not alwayd part. Me posting late at night isn't always the best at communicating.

And thanks again for everyone who has responded since the last time. I do appreciate it and my lack of response is simply me not knowing what to say and trying to digest everything.

[Emery.]

Yes. I think Kappamaki describes the typical sentiment behind this question well (not saying that was your intent. It's a valid question when asked genuinely). I believe I would. I don't necessarily think that's the case for every single trans person out there though. Many might not. And FWIW, I believe gender roles will always exist. My "problem" is in my relation to others. How I relate to them, how I interact with them, how I act and am seen by them...lack of gender roles isn't going to fix that. People will always relate to one another in different ways.

The question about gender roles is veeeery hypothetical, because they will exist as long as reproduction with two sexes eists, and one sex has bigger gamets, and the other - smaller.

Some customs are more arbitrary than others, so they vary more across cultures. But the division stays apparent. Sex influences socialising.

Hence, the problem of relating to others will always be there if you get a brain structure for which it is more natural to relate to others like the opposite sex. People vary on how much they are menatlly like their own sex, and in which aspects - hence it is nearly impossible for all trans or not-so-cis people to agree on any matter concerning gender.

As humans, we have well-developed self-awareness, consciousness and complex identities. Not only in terms of gender. Nationality. Religion. Culture. Social class. Hobbies we identify with. Jobs. And so forth. Those are results of thinking, reflection. Most animals (at least the less intelligent ones) don't have enough self-awareness to recognise themselves in the mirror, to understand that it is their own reflection. They may have consciousness, but they don't realise their "I". So how could they have a sense of their own identity or self?

How is this related to the topic? Gender identity is a kind of identity, an element of self, which results from biological factors in the brain, external environmental factors such as culture or family, and in the end also from self-reflection, from our consciousness. This means that the same person subject to different factors will develop different identities.

Dysphoria is only a way of experiencing being trans. It is personal matter if an individual considers their body to be consistent with their idnetity. It is not a choice, but result of background factors AND unique, individual thinking process and understaning of the world.

Sorry for ranting ;) I hope you understand how it relates. Please ask if anything is unclear. I have trouble explaining things I understand, especially in words... (ugh, no pen over here to wave it and draw >:( ) It was background for:

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

No. Not the same, but the essence will always be the same. It is beyond the particular, beyond my self-perception. Beyond social norms, expectations and culture. I would be an expession of the same essence if born in different circumstances. It may be expressed in any form adequate to time and place. The problem will be the same, and solution the same. Finding a way to be at ease.

It is not a question of expectations, but something on a more basic level, something very biological. So trans issues will exist as long as two sexes exist, because if there is even a marginal chance of a male getting a brain structure that will be perceived more similar to the average female and vice versa, it will happen. That person can, but doesn't have to, develop a transgender self-identity, having realised the unease with behaving, feeling and thinking like their birth gender, and they can understand it as being really the other gender. Because of different concepts and tendencies that are pre-wired into the brain, just like face recognition. There are billions, trillions of people who ever lived and will live. This is a lot. So if transgenderism can happen, it will.

Lack of gender roles can only leave a transgender person with their own inner workings and a feeling that they should have been born as the other sex, because people observe and see how evolution has shaped the two genders differently in many aspects, and develop complex senses of belonging and identities. So we are back in the same place we were at in the begining: they are trans.

[Densoro]

^ Isn't there a bit of a nature-nurture debate to be had with differences in the brain though? For example, people like to say that men are better at mathematics and spatial awareness, whereas women are just inherently better with emotions. But do we not socialize men to deal with spatial problems, which would affect the ways they calculate those problems mentally? Do we not live in a patriarchal system where women need to develop emotional sense early, to anticipate, act, and react to the ways the world will treat them? The brain reacts physically with any thought we think; training certain portions from birth is bound to produce physical differences, as with any part of the body.

Not to invalidate anybody's identity, mind you: other parts of us are just strengths that we have built, too, and those parts are totally valid. Our knowledge in various subjects, our values, our ways of interacting with each other, and many other aspects of our personality are shaped through constant, almost passive self-refinement. Why should gender be any different? If gender and its neurological effects are socially-influenced, then nobody can tell you that you're doing it wrong. Masculinity can be whatever the man in question deems it is; femininity can also be self-defined by the woman in question. In that way, there is no wrong way to be trans.

[Prairie]

It is not a question of expectations, but something on a more basic level, something very biological. So trans issues will exist as long as two sexes exist, because if there is even a marginal chance of a male getting a brain structure that will be perceived more similar to the average female and vice versa, it will happen. That person can, but doesn't have to, develop a transgender self-identity, having realised the unease with behaving, feeling and thinking like their birth gender, and they can understand it as being really the other gender. Because of different concepts and tendencies that are pre-wired into the brain, just like face recognition.

So you're basically saying that there couldn't be a society without gender, just without gender roles, because you think that gender perception is as instinctual as color perception and reading of people's emotions? Rather than that the ideas of gender qualities is cultural and where there were no gender roles body sex would be as significant as blood type, height, hair color, etc. and play a minor medical role when people wanted to produce a baby.

[...] people like to say that men are better at mathematics and spatial awareness, whereas women are just inherently better with emotions.

From what I've read, these differences are so slight that they can only be seen when looking at groups of men and women; if you knew someone's results on some mathematics of spatial awareness, you could only talk of (non-100/0%) likelihood that the test-taker was a man or woman. And that many of the slight differences vanish after both groups have been able to do some training for a while. My take is that the need to have differences drives trying to find them (and trying to not find evidence of the almost indifference). It'd be nice to have some source of pure, unfiltered facts to clean up op one's beliefs on (I'd be thrilled to have such a tool).

[Yatogami]

Do you believe that you would identify the way you do now if gender roles didn't exist? If there weren't differing expectations placed on males and females, do you believe there would be any issues.

I would say that gender roles play a big role in how I identify. So if gender roles magically didn't exist, I probably won't care so much with how I identified, because it probably would not be a problem. If either gender could dress how they wanted, act and do as they wanted in relation to their gender. There would be a lot less gender dysphoria.

For transexuals or those with body dismorphia that is gender/sex related, do you believe that you would still feel the same if you never had any association of certain traits, personalities, and social norms of dress and activities to male or female gender?

I probably would still feel some degree of dysmorphia. I tend to be constantly aware that my physical body is not what I want it to be. Even without gender roles etc.

Hope I am understanding these questions right. I was having a difficult time.

[Emery.]

^ Isn't there a bit of a nature-nurture debate to be had with differences in the brain though?

Yes, there is. Studies show many different, incongruent things and the topic of gender is politically loaded, so it is impossible to obtain objective results. Hence, I can tell only my own opinion. I think it works both ways: brain has certain inborn traits, but they are developed or regress depending on how much they are used. Just like any other organ. If you don't use your legs, muscles there will shrink. If you train every day running, you have bettter performance of legs than most peple and big muscles on them.

But here comes the thing: some people have much muscle mass even if they don't excersice and find it easy to gain muscle, and some can train a lot and not gain much physical fitness. But can become better at running than those who don't excersice. Predispositions, which depend on many things including genetics and hormones, chemistry.

So: both.

However it seems logical that if males and females have different strategies to survive, resulting from different size of gamets, they can develop different mental qualities making it easier to fill in a different strategy or niche. May I mark here, that human gender roles are an accident in here, just one of many different possibilities. See: sea horses, bees and ants, or fishand turtles that just abandon their gamets. Or what about lions, whose females hunt more often than males, unlike our ancestors did? Animals have gender roles too, even when it's difficult to speak of socialisation in their case.

Of course there are some arbitrary customs that change depending on centuries and regions, like skirts and trousers. There is a lot of this too, of course and I agree that a lot of gender is just an arbitrary social construct. A lot of it makes sense, but a lot of it only remotely. E.g. those attitudes such as female-passive, male-active, which make sense in some circumastances, are not the only good solutions that can work effectively - see: the diversity of gender divisions in animals.

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Here comes the place for opinion. My opinion is that there are boundaries to socialisation and effort taken to develop certain qualities in yourself. We are free only within boundaries. You can't teach a dog quantum physics, even if you put vey much effort in it and the dog too. It won't be easy for the dog. The dog won't catch it. Nobody can't change what is easy for them and what is extremely hard. Brain is just an organ and we're just flesh with self-awareness, even though it's sad and we'd like to believe in eternal souls.

Some disagree with this view. They say everything is possible and human mind is perfectly elastic.

Do we not live in a patriarchal system where women need to develop emotional sense early, to anticipate, act, and react to the ways the world will treat them?

... then nobody can tell you that you're doing it wrong. Masculinity can be whatever the man in question deems it is; femininity can also be self-defined by the woman in question. In that way, there is no wrong way to be trans.

I did not attempt evaluation of what is femininity and masculinity, or what is right or wrong.

Before we go into accusing patriarchy of existance of gender roles, I'd like to point that men undertook more dangerous tasks (hunting, fishing, mining, fighting etc), and often died or became disabled as a result of gender roles, while women sat at home and did housework. Men also had no families more often. It's the reverse side of limited rights of women. The concept of patrarchy has limited scope. My opinion is that it is a certain division. Good? Bad? In favour of whom? Were women and/or men happy about it? Hard to tell. It worked somehow. Now it does't work that well, because we've got machines, medicine and office work. Everything is set into certain socio-historical circumstances.

I'm not into judging and supporting just one side.

Transgenderism emerges from some (no matter which) sort of incongruency between the sex of a person's body and what is in their head (in terms of personality, instincts, cognition, body image etc. etc.) (if there wasn't any incongruency, in anything concerning gender, gender wouldn't be a problem for such a person, right?), if some features are more common among males or females. It can occur in countless ways, I agree. Right ways? Wrong ways? Can it be evaluated in thems of right/wrong at all? *shug*

Biological way is just my way, so I can describe it, and I identify as more genderqueer than trans, so... If anyone else feels that transgender feelings are anything else but urges with no psychological reason or ground to occur (exept for casual noticing that you're out of the average of your GDAB in some respects), I invite them to describe it. It will be fun to exchange experiences and know more about gender. :)

So you're basically saying that there couldn't be a society without gender, just without gender roles, because you think that gender perception is as instinctual as color perception and reading of people's emotions?

Yes. If there is sex, there will be gender too, in my opinion.

No. Social skills or attitudes associated with gender are as instinctical as face recognition. Gender itself is not. It is multi-sided and as complex as any aspect of being human. That's what was my purpose to say in the rant about self-identity.

Rather than that the ideas of gender qualities is cultural and where there were no gender roles body sex would be as significant as blood type, height, hair color, etc. and play a minor medical role when people wanted to produce a baby.

Yes and no. Yes, because "gendered" behaviour/thinking/etc and sex of the body are not inherently linked, this behaviour isn't essential to gender and gender to this behaviour/thinking/etc, only more common among one sex or better developed in its members on average. It is a statistical difference, not essential to an individuals self-definition, when it comes to it playing a role in something. So in the end sex matters only when it comes to reproduction. However, evolution differentiates males and females a little bit to make them more suitable for their slightly differing "ecological" niches, thus producing a social difference (of averages!). Hence gender starts to matter at some point in socialising too, to some degree or in some sense. On individual level, anything can happen, though.

if you knew someone's results on some mathematics of spatial awareness, you could only talk of (non-100/0%) likelihood that the test-taker was a man or woman.

^This. It is all only about likelihood, not absolute truths... There is nothing absolute about gender.