Do you think that love is actually a made up concept?

[Lord Jade Cross]

Yesterday afternoon, as i went (well technically got taken) to get a new set of glasses, I found myself with a situation similar to ones i discussed in a previous thread where a person acted too friendly towards me. However, i simply disregarded as a sales technique. I needed a new set and they (well she) needed to make a sale so she had to make sure she acted friendly and gave me discounts and stuff, though i have worked in retail and i know this "give your client what appears to be a discount" technique.

Anyways, since i was with my parents (yes a recipe for disaster in the waiting) and another family member, the second the sales lady went away to finish processing the papers, my mother and the other member started teasing and hinting, that i should try to get the lady's attention more because she was being so friendly and that this meant that she was so totally into me (in we go with this same old song and dance again)

Now because this situation had repeated itself so much, i began at one point to question the overall existence of such a thing and, at least to me, the idea of love simply began to lose ground as a legitimate thing. When i would hear and at times question ppeople, the responses i was given were too vague to be usefull and they sounded more like generic answers which could be manipulated to sound like an ultimate thing but never really being anything in the first place.

So i ask again, is love real and what evidence (tangible not ideological) is there to disprove that its non existence its actually incorrect?

[Rising Sun]

Neurotransmitters. High levels of dopamine and oxytocin, and low levels of serotonin.

But it's a very simplified answer, and the answer is somewhat different if you talk about love in general (including long-term romance and platonic love), or if you talk about attraction and limerence (which aren't really love strictly speaking, but where the brain is highly intoxicated by a crazy cocktail of neurotransmitters).

[Sage Raven Domino]

Controversially enough, I believe that love is a cultural artefact. At the beginning of the species, humans merely had sex. If the society and parents didn't teach 'the joys of love', we'd reproduce like animals (there are a lot of monogamous species who form steady familial bonds due to neurotransmitter effects, but this bonding can't really be called love, it's more like a habit). Life would look less intellectual without Shakespearean love, however.

[Perissodactyla]

"For a color blind person, color might seem to be a made-up concept."

[Lord Jade Cross]

I wonder, how would this affect the population? If love was credited to only be a fantasy like scenario, how would things change? I imagine that right of the bat, wedding ceremonies and investments would crash instantly but beyond the monetary factor involved, what other fields could be affected?

[Tanzanite]

I ask myself the same thing sometimes. Then again, the whole hormones and neurotransmitters thing makes sense to me. There's also the person's interpretation of emotions, but the hormones probably have more influence. There's also the 4 different types of love just to make this mess even more complicated...

[Light02]

That's like an asexual person believing that sexual attraction is made-up because they don't feel it. I would say that yes, love very much exists in my life experience and I've felt these kinds of feelings ever since I was a kid.

[Lord Jade Cross]

"For a color blind person, color might seem to be a made-up concept."

Yes, ive been told in the past (well insulted in a way) that i will never really understand it until i feel it. But if i cant feel it, does it make it any more real?

[Lord Jade Cross]

That's like an asexual person believing that sexual attraction is made-up because they don't feel it. I would say that yes, love very much exists in my life experience and I've felt these kinds of feelings ever since I was a kid.

But isnt that the same as when a sexual person says that asexuality is not a real thing because they cant experience not feeling that sexaul attraction?

[Someone Else]

Marriage and sex used to have a lot to do with politics, survival, alliances, and reproduction, but it doesn't mean that in the distant past humans weren't capable of forming bonds that seemed stronger, different from their familial or platonic friends. Love has always existed, it just manifested differently. And the rich,the nobility, who controlled the lion's share of history, were the ones most political with their marriages. We have next to no information, comparatively, on peasant courtship. And of course, nothing on how cavemen did or didn't feel love.

[allrightalready]

"For a color blind person, color might seem to be a made-up concept."

Yes, ive been told in the past (well insulted in a way) that i will never really understand it until i feel it. But if i cant feel it, does it make it any more real?

just because you cannot feel something does not make it real.

nor does anything in your example have anything to do with love, flirting/attraction all that are just ways of meeting people and have almost nothing to do with love.

love is caring about others enough to act on it and is not about sex at all

[Lord Jade Cross]

True, but the flirting and attraction are at times the factors that lead to what people refer to as love if the people become involved. I could have phrased it better perhaps but my question is still the same.

[Lord Jade Cross]

The romantic one anyways, the other types of love have different factors to them. Im just trying to figure out the concept.

[Light02]

That's like an asexual person believing that sexual attraction is made-up because they don't feel it. I would say that yes, love very much exists in my life experience and I've felt these kinds of feelings ever since I was a kid.

But isnt that the same as when a sexual person says that asexuality is not a real thing because they cant experience not feeling that sexaul attraction?

A person who does experience romantic attraction telling an aromantic person that their experience or actually, lack of experience of romantic attraction is impossible is in fact the same, yes. But I did not say anything like that. I did not say that your aromanticism doesn't exist. You were the one that suggested in the title and the first post of this thread that romantic feelings might not exist. I said that they do exist in my life experience, I did not say that they must exist in your experience as well.

[Sage Raven Domino]

Jade Cross, please give your definition of love before we proceed.

Animals are known to experience deep attachment, but that qualifies rather as queerplatonic friendship imo. (What distinguishes the latter from romantic love in my book is that lovers touch each other in many ways impromptu.)

[Lord Jade Cross]

I never said that you had said that aromanticism did not exist. I was merely stating that in the same way that a person is told that just because they dont feel something, that it doesn stop it from being real, at least to that person, that the same applies in reverse.

[Guest]

Jade... the problem with describing love is that it's indescribable, so you end up with the proxies of love... the things we do to show our love, or the things that love makes us feel (jealousy, desire, excitement, protectiveness, etc), and dumb little crush-like features (butterflies, wanting to be around them all the time, etc).

I completely understand why, if you don't feel it, you'd say "that stuff is ridiculous and isn't love". Because you're right, that stuff isn't love, but it's the best we get to describing it.

That isn't to say there's not a whole framework of cultural nonsense built up, over, and around love, which confuses and complicates the issue... at it's very core, though... yes, love is a real phenomenon.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Jade Cross, please give your definition of love before we proceed.

Animals are known to experience deep attachment, but that qualifies rather as queerplatonic friendship imo.

Yes, im beggining to see that this can potentially spiral down to possible conflicts.

My definition of love, in the way that i am able to grasp it anyways , is that it is a concept by which people establish a form of interdependence of sorts but that for all the things in which love has been ideologically grandized and is believed to be an ultimate thing, it still doesnt sound to be anything but a concept, at least to me.

Im not trying to impose my view on anyone. Just want to make the clear before proceeding. Im only curios to know if i can find the core of the concept if you will.

[Rising Sun]

So your question is more "what aspects of love are real and what aspects of love are just a cultural invention ?", if I understand well ?

[binary suns]

"love" is a strong feeling of affection.

"love" as romanticised, if it is a real thing has been muddled up with an exaggerate pipe dream, so we can never really say for sure.

is "love" once stripped of the fantasy really any different than "a strong feeling of affection"? I believe the two are the same. the fantasy is what is conceptual only, however faith in a conception can make it a reality, since reality is limited by observation.

ps. unless reality is more than observation. no, in order to prove reality is more than observation you must observe the proof.

[binary suns]

I completely understand why, if you don't feel it, you'd say "that stuff is ridiculous and isn't love". Because you're right, that stuff isn't love, but it's the best we get to describing it.

admit it. it is also ridiculous :P

[Light02]

I never said that you had said that aromanticism did not exist. I was merely stating that in the same way that a person is told that just because they dont feel something, that it doesn stop it from being real, at least to that person, that the same applies in reverse.

Well, yes, of course. But since we agree that it applies both ways can't we agree that no, love is not made-up just because you and other aromantic people don't feel it. I feel it, many others do as well, it is totally real at least for us.

[Sage Raven Domino]

Jade... the problem with describing love is that it's indescribable

So are gods :lol:

Actually, my thoughts are not that so-called romantic attraction doesn't exist, but that it's not a separate feeling, that it's a synthesis of sensual attraction and a desire for friendship (platonic attraction), plus sometimes the longing for pertinent ceremonies.

[Hooded_Crow]

Love isn't a concept to me. It's a feeling. It's very unreal when you see it from outside and very real when you feel it.

I know I love my partner because I am more drawn to him than anyone else in the world. He stands out. Really. I know I love him because I think about him constantly, everything I do and see reminds me of him.

Whenever he pops up on Skype I can't help the smile springing to my face. I'm overwhelmingly happy when he says he loves me. When I don't see him for a while I miss him terribly. I would always rather be with him than without him.

I want to spend the rest of my life with him. Not just maybe. Really really. I can't imagine not having him in my life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, I immediately dread something might have happened to him, even though he doesn't have my home number as an emergency contact.

I'm not giving you the physiological things because I don't think it's very relevant. Fast heartbeat could be stress. Or infatuation.

I care about him more than I care about myself. That is definitely a real feeling and that is the feeling we call love. So yeah. Love is real.

[binary suns]

"For a color blind person, color might seem to be a made-up concept."

Yes, ive been told in the past (well insulted in a way) that i will never really understand it until i feel it. But if i cant feel it, does it make it any more real?

just because you cannot feel something does not make it real.

agreed.

but, if it is not felt, it cannot be real until it is understood. (or observed in some other way) (yes I'm being philosophical here)

[Guest]

I completely understand why, if you don't feel it, you'd say "that stuff is ridiculous and isn't love". Because you're right, that stuff isn't love, but it's the best we get to describing it.

admit it. it is also ridiculous :P

Love? I dunno... I've very rarely experienced any sort of really strong love feeling (aside from after sex :D ), so to me it isn't ridiculous because I don't really subscribe to the whole cultural "make me feel like a princess!" bullshit, and I don't think that love changes anything, and I certainly don't think that falling in love with make your partner any nicer... yet I see people saying these things all the time, like "but he said he loved me, why wouldn't he try to change?"... I don't see the connection between loving someone and being willing to not be yourself, personally. I can love, but I also won't ever be not me.

Sorry, that was weird tangent :)

Love isn't a concept to me. It's a feeling. It's very unreal when you see it from outside and very real when you feel it.

I know I love my partner because I am more drawn to him than anyone else in the world. He stands out. Really. I know I love him because I think about him constantly, everything I do and see reminds me of him.

Whenever he pops up on Skype I can't help the smile springing to my face. I'm overwhelmingly happy when he says he loves me. When I don't see him for a while I miss him terribly. I would always rather be with him than without him.

I want to spend the rest of my life with him. Not just maybe. Really really. I can't imagine not having him in my life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, I immediately dread something might have happened to him, even though he doesn't have my home number as an emergency contact.

I'm not giving you the physiological things because I don't think it's very relevant. Fast heartbeat could be stress. Or infatuation.

I care about him more than I care about myself. That is definitely a real feeling and that is the feeling we call love. So yeah. Love is real.

Oh, this is perfect. Excellent description <3

[Light02]

Love isn't a concept to me. It's a feeling. It's very unreal when you see it from outside and very real when you feel it.

I know I love my partner because I am more drawn to him than anyone else in the world. He stands out. Really. I know I love him because I think about him constantly, everything I do and see reminds me of him.

Whenever he pops up on Skype I can't help the smile springing to my face. I'm overwhelmingly happy when he says he loves me. When I don't see him for a while I miss him terribly. I would always rather be with him than without him.

I want to spend the rest of my life with him. Not just maybe. Really really. I can't imagine not having him in my life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, I immediately dread something might have happened to him, even though he doesn't have my home number as an emergency contact.

I'm not giving you the physiological things because I don't think it's very relevant. Fast heartbeat could be stress. Or infatuation.

I care about him more than I care about myself. That is definitely a real feeling and that is the feeling we call love. So yeah. Love is real.

I agree so much with everything you just said.

[Sage Raven Domino]

I want to spend the rest of my life with him. Not just maybe. Really really. I can't imagine not having him in my life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, I immediately dread something might have happened to him, even though he doesn't have my home number as an emergency contact.

I'm not giving you the physiological things because I don't think it's very relevant. Fast heartbeat could be stress. Or infatuation.

I hope you have objective reasons for the infatuation-to-love transitioning. I've had many infatuations but didn't find those people suitable to me.

I think that a more appropriate topic would be 'Is amatonormativity essential?', to which the answer is 'no'. Romantics are entitled to their highly emotional behaviour but shouldn't expect everyone else to act this way.

[Psidium]

I had a debate with a friend about this. He could not comprehend the concept of romantic attraction, and when I explained it in the traditional sense, including the neurotransmitters stuff, felling happiness and excitement with their presence and deep sadness with their absence. He answered, "So I have romantic attraction for everyone I feel close too? Because I feel all that both for my SO and for my best friend, except I want to have sex with one and not the other". No one was able to give a satisfactory answer.

It made sense at that point. Every relationship with each person is different, and, according to him, the concept of romantic love is a way to enforce monogamy and controlling people's sexuality. And it even made me question my orientation once again, since most of my past crushes were somehow "forced".

How would you people answer to that?

[binary suns]

Controversially enough, I believe that love is a cultural artefact. At the beginning of the species, humans merely had sex. If the society and parents didn't teach 'the joys of love', we'd reproduce like animals (there are a lot of monogamous species who form steady familial bonds due to neurotransmitter effects, but this bonding can't really be called love, it's more like a habit). Life would look less intellectual without Shakespearean love, however.

I believe that the cultural experience compounds on the primitive experience. "love" existed as an emotion, but since emotion (at some point in the far past) wasn't conceptualized it was nothing more than a passing impulse, in essence. but with language and subsequent culture, the understanding of the impulse and awareness of its potential gave its experience a "deeper" experience, an experience so entwined with the original emotion that can we truly say it is only an artifact? in the sense that "a white horse is not a horse" sure, "love is not an emotion" but the "white horse is not a horse" argument is not an argument about one thing not belonging to two descriptions, but instead that the description is an abstraction and thus not the same as the thing it describes.

"love" as an experience is different than "love" as a cultural concept. but that is only to say, that "love" once observed is definitive, but when imagined is infinite.