Why do they always go for where the sun don't shine?

[AVENger]

Hey all. I'm a 43 year old heteroromantic woman who has been in many relationships throughout the years, which have mostly dissolved due to the sexual differences. Over time, my ability to communicate with men has improved as I have gained an increasing understanding of the differences between how my ace mind works and the way their minds work. This has helped, but it's certainly not perfect. A couple nights ago when hanging out with a friend of mine (who knows I'm ace), we both discovered that we had a mutual crush on each other. One thing led to another, and I was blissfully sitting in his arms watching a movie. As the movie ended we caressed and kissed one another, all wonderful and all... but then the usual happened: his hand gradually began to journey toward one o' my boobs. Granted, I had not made it clear to him that this would be a sensual buzzkill for me, since we had not previously even talked about possibly dating one another. I've come to learn to really spell out every detail for them about what is/isn't relevant to my experience of romantic/sensual excitement. Considering the fact that these preferences vary even among different asexuals I don't expect the guy to telepathically understand my turnoffs/turnons.

I've learned that 'normal' women get turned on when their sexual body parts are caressed. I also know that a kind, caring man would want to please his partner, so they must be assuming that these behaviours would be pleasing for me (kind of like when my cat drops a dead bird at my feet thinking she's giving me a treat).

I have communicated that it turns me off, along with very specific requests as to what turns me on, however their boob/butt-magnet hands still persist. (they seem to be more understanding of laying off the V'Jayjay at least!) I actually had an insightful moment one time after manually pleasing an ex of mine- His hand began to wander towards my crotch which I had to redirect, after which he expressed the concern that he wanted to "please me too". It was then that it dawned on me that he'd just assumed I'd want the same as what he had wanted. So, I have become pretty detailed about what *does* please me and I let them know how good those things feel.

Given the depth to which I explain things to them, I cannot help but wonder:

1.) Does the man receive any direct turn-on from fondling my sexual parts? Or am I still not communicating well enough to them that my sexual bits are irrelevant to what romantically/sensually turns me on?

2.) If the man does receive some direct pleasure from touching those parts of me then why wouldn't me helping them achieve a climax be enough for them?

Any ideas would be appreciated. I know the easiest solution would be to meet another ace. Until that happens, I would like to know how to communicate better with a non-ace.

[Touchofinsight]

Human sexuality is more then just physical mechanics and pleasure. Its a multifaceted concept that includes your ego and personality.

Simply put most sexual people not only want to feel pleasure but they want to feel attractive, they want to feel like they are sexually valuable and to get that from the person they are with at the time. This includes pleasuring their partner in return (and that partner wanting/desiring that pleasure) and for most people this is completely natural and normal. So they know nothing else because they haven't experienced anything else.

So yes your going to have let them know that even when your pleasuring them you don't want to be touched in X, Y, and Z areas. That sexually you get no pleasure and/or don't want them to touch you. This may be a complete turn off for them because like I said before part of sexuality is how you feel are you being perceived and valued by your partner sexually. Often times if someone doesn't want anything from that person they feel sexually worthless and that can hurt someone's feeling or ability to enjoy sexual behaviors. For many people if your just doing it for them... then no it won't be enough.

[Otohime]

1. Yes. Guys are turned on by touching sexual parts (and erogenous zones in general. Breasts/butt aren't strictly sexual.). Just like looking at girls can turn men on... touching a girl is even better for them. Touching isn't required of course, and where a guy best likes to touch could vary between guys. But in general, assume that guys enjoy touching you.

2. You say that other touches romantically/sensually please you, but the problem may be that these guys are trying to sexually please you. For example, if you say a back rub feels good to you, a nice guy will happily give you a back rub. However, they won't think of it as a substitute for sexual activities because for them, the two activities are completely separate.

Perhaps try communicating that you don't want to be sexually pleased at all (if that's true), and be clear that the attempts don't make you happy. Most guys can easily understand that certain areas make you uncomfortable, but they need to know that they shouldn't try anything sexual and it has the opposite effect (it doesn't please you, it's unenjoyable).

3. Also keep in mind that some guys if they just receive pleasure but don't give any, that can make them feel like they are being selfish or even that they failed you. Again... I recommend making it clear that you that only does this not bother you, but this makes you happy when it's that way. Don't expect guys to understand this right away... you are going to have to be extra clear.

4. Some guys may not understand at all and/or not want a relationship that feels one-sided to them.

[Nymra]

I love how you compared the behavior of men trying to please you with a cat bringing you a dead mouse, that got me laughing more than it should. xD

Very interesting threat!

It's quite hard to communicate with a non-ace indeed. I do understand your questions.

1.)

I've actually not come to a conclusion myself there yet. Still I am younger and I don't think I've got through so many relationship as you did. And also my communication skills may be worlds apart from yours. But I do think it turns your partner on to touch you at these parts. Since it's all in the instinc... right? Not entirely sure since I'm not a sexual.

2.)

However I do not think it's enough to make them climax. Quite hard to tell though. I guess most men would like you to climax as well since, well, they'd do anything to please you (dead mouse reference xD).

I'm not such a huge help with these questions. This is just my opinion I'm dropping, any critique is fine ^^

[TheBird]

Hi! :) Although i'm ACE i've actually counselled young couples with similar questions… I KNOW it's rediculous (but sex talk in my old fundy-christian circles is super ignorant and monotonous: a little knowledge goes a LONG way to helping). Take it or leave it, but I hope some of my spouting, helps. Sorry for the bold sub heads, they help me think!

Yes, generally men definitely get some pleasure from touching, however boobs, bum although touted by hip-hop-sters and teen movies to be the ultimate in sexy-time-body-parts, are actually not always erogenous zones. Excluding erotic overladies and overlords, it takes time to build up an agreement of what you and your partner like and dont like, it's personal and although copying what media and culture portrays might be a good start, it's severely limiting and it doesn't get you very far. Creativity and improvisation is definitely needed to explore and generate new ideas soley for your relationship. Most men, through media and conversation inside the same social group have been trained to go for those typical areas, to the exclusion of any other idea of what might turn a person on. My buddy, Bex says it well; "touching is one of the most creative and improvised things a person can do".

EG: Although not exactly a big sample group, four of my female friends who chatted about this at the same dinner (yep, it's come up in a rather hilarious conversastion!) have no fun when boobs are caressed. One girl, lets call her "G" (22 y/o studying sex therapy) has very little feeling in her breasts but just above the waist is her main go-to area, the other two gals; "O" and "A" NECK, definitively neck and "N" she loves EAR LOBE and neck being touched!! Of course I try to touch her earlobe when it's inappropriate… dam funny. Bats my hand away.

I highly suspect that context plays a large part, too.

Me:

I am also exploring this as I am still sex-repulsed but am always up for asking, "to what extent"? In my single encounter, "girl" went straight for gold, and I hated it, it's the most anxiety i've felt in years. I tried not to show it. (she stopped, thank goodness). I also hate kissing. Its awful. I prefer earl grey.

Question 2 i'll leave to someone else but:

Touching, exploring and sex does not have a "finish" (called climax). …Unless you've got 10 minutes and are in a hurry to sell stock, or the plane is landing ;)

That's a huge modern myth that is actually the cause of much pressure and feelings of inadequecy and feelings like that can build up to stress response to something that's meant to be nice!

Summary

In all this, the main thing i'd love to say is, just have fun (Deanna Joy Lyons from Recovering from Religion has great stuff to say on this).

No goals, no end game of "climax"; pressure is not welcome!

One thing i'd say about breasts though… the skin underneath them is SUPER SUPER soft and awesome.

I wish you the best!

[Tarfeather]

It's not.. all about pleasing the other. It's also not necessarily about turning yourself on. Don't know, I guess the best analogy would be an "achievement", though it's not really all that crude. Basically, if I get to touch the sexual bits of a woman, I will have this psychological feeling of having been highly intimate with her, which will keep cheering me up for quite a while, and goes far beyond "having been turned on".

My girlfriend doesn't get turned off by touching her boobs, so it's a bit of a trade for us. The few times we've done "that" so far, I would alternate between stroking the rest of her body and doing things with her boobs, and that way we'd both come out of it highly content. But if it literally turns you off, it's not that easy.

Actually, to be honest, I imagine it to be weird to be sensual with someone who has literal "turn-off" points. Like imagine someone saying "You mustn't touch my hands or I'll be turned off". That would make the whole situation a little difficult. I often end up accidentally brushing my girlfriend's boobs when stroking the rest of her body, and it'd feel awkward to try to avoid that. As if there's still some kind of distance between us, as opposed to the complete trust we currently enjoy.

Anyway, if his hands still wander even after your saying that you don't want that, that's a bad sign. Maybe he genuinely doesn't believe you that you don't like that stuff or something. Men can be weird that way. I'd make it very clear that you were being serious about what you said and that you don't appreciate the way he disrespects that.

[Autumn Season]

Thanks for asking these questions, OP. TT^TT I feel like I'm finally getting some answers, too.

One of the things I wonder about, is: OK, so you (man) have to touch me here to feel better or whatever. But can't you move on already? It's getting boring. xD

Sorry, I'm ranting. The more direct question is: Do heterosexual men have to spend a lot of time on lady bits to feel good? Or is it enough for them to touch for a short time? (short < 2min hopefully)

[Star Bit]

There are three types of sensual attraction; platonic, romantic, and sexual. The sexual is desired to turn on the person; be you or them. They have a desire to do this; which explains the boob/butt persistance and why its not just done because they think it turns you on. And yes, sensual contact with you arouses/can arouse them. Gropeing alone most likely isn't enough to get them strongly aroused/enough to orgasm. There are asexual dating sites and a meet up section on this site.

[Lost247365]

Given the depth to which I explain things to them, I cannot help but wonder:

1.) Does the man receive any direct turn-on from fondling my sexual parts? Or am I still not communicating well enough to them that my sexual bits are irrelevant to what romantically/sensually turns me on?

2.) If the man does receive some direct pleasure from touching those parts of me then why wouldn't me helping them achieve a climax be enough for them?

Basing this off the sexual guys I know, I would guess the answers to your questions would be

1.) Yes. There are exceptions but the majority of sexual guys I know love breasts and love to touch them.

2.) I can't answer for sure, but I suspect that breasts are such a big appeal to some men, that not getting to touch them would be like being given a cake with no icing on it.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Not female myself but interesting thread nonetheless. I can't really contribute anything though as I've never found myself in the described situation but I have heard things contrary to this. That women ( I imagine like many things, this too is exaggerated to some degree) do not like it at all if the men spend too little time paying attention to other parts and go straight, for the lower areas when trying to get things going.

However, like it has been said, many may not be able to understand and kind of assume that if they are being pleased, that the natural thing is to please back the partner, otherwise they risk getting called horn dogs, in it for a quick fuck and generally they are not well looked upon for this.

[Nazgir]

This post has some TMI in, but then again, I suppose the whole thread does so not sure if I have to warn.

I found that the few times me and my girlfriend experimented a bit before she realised she was ace, that the act of "pleasuring" (even if it doesn't actually give you real pleasure) gives a sort of immense emotional satisfaction. It's not a physical sensation like pleasure from sex is, but I suppose it has to do with doing what we think gives the partner a good time.

I mean, I'm very much a boob person, and my girlfriend is really sensitive and usually won't let me touch them, and I know that, and I know that she gets no satisfaction from it. The reverse is true actually, it costs her a lot of energy being touched there. Yet despite knowing all that I still find my hands wandering if I don't pay enough attention, and I still really like to fondle them etc. I don't know exactly why, but it's just really enjoyable.

I hope this helps a bit.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Thinking about it, I have the same question as Autumn Season on the time frame of touching/fondling.

[Nazgir]

Afraid I can't help with that. Haven't really gotten enough experience to say anything about that.

[Tarfeather]

@Nazgir: Brofist of virginity!

One of the things I wonder about, is: OK, so you (man) have to touch me here to feel better or whatever. But can't you move on already? It's getting boring. xD

Sorry, I'm ranting. The more direct question is: Do heterosexual men have to spend a lot of time on lady bits to feel good? Or is it enough for them to touch for a short time? (short < 2min hopefully)

I can't really comment on that either because my partner is not like that and I haven't made any experience with an asexual such as yourself. But I don't think a "let's get this over with" kind of attitude is ever going to be rewarding for either partner. Sensuality seems to be a lot more about mood and atmosphere, not completing items on a check-list.

[Autumn Season]

@Nazgir: Brofist of virginity!

One of the things I wonder about, is: OK, so you (man) have to touch me here to feel better or whatever. But can't you move on already? It's getting boring. xDSorry, I'm ranting. The more direct question is: Do heterosexual men have to spend a lot of time on lady bits to feel good? Or is it enough for them to touch for a short time? (short < 2min hopefully)

I can't really comment on that either because my partner is not like that and I haven't made any experience with an asexual such as yourself. But I don't think a "let's get this over with" kind of attitude is ever going to be rewarding for either partner. Sensuality seems to be a lot more about mood and atmosphere, not completing items on a check-list.

I get what you mean and I can understand that a "let's get it over with"-attitude can spoil the mood.

But assuming the atmosphere was good and I pulled my partner's hand to a new region after, say, two minutes. Would that usually leave him unsatisfied? Does a typical man need to spend more time on lady bits?

[Tarfeather]

But assuming the atmosphere was good and I pulled my partner's hand to a new region after, say, two minutes. Would that usually leave him unsatisfied? Does a typical man need to spend more time on lady bits?

It might be satisfying more than frustrating. Depends on the person, the other stuff you're doing, etc. There are just too many variables.

[Lord Jade Cross]

But assuming the atmosphere was good and I pulled my partner's hand to a new region after, say, two minutes. Would that usually leave him unsatisfied? Does a typical man need to spend more time on lady bits?

It might be satisfying more than frustrating. Depends on the person, the other stuff you're doing, etc. There are just too many variables.

I have to agree with this statement. There are way too many differences between people that trying to state that one single action would be the same for all would just be inadequate.

[Sally]

From my experience, what the guy wants to experience is the woman's obviously liking the hand business. The hand doesn't move until he experiences that. Ick.

[Mycroft is Yourcroft]

From my experience, what the guy wants to experience is the woman's obviously liking the hand business. The hand doesn't move until he experiences that. Ick.

That's been my experience too. Ick indeed.

Perhaps I've only ever had bad experiences.

[Star Bit]

Hmm, they may do so to get a certain reaction which result in their own further arousal or moral satisfaction. But as i said they may also desire to do it for so long there as well. A good example of this is with sensual attraction. For example, i desire to hug my cat but she is not into such things and i will get bitch slapped with a hateful glare if i do so for too long/a few seconds; this includes with going over the one kiss limit as well. I desire a longer hug with her. Sexually sensual men may desire to linger there until their desired time is filled. The reason for that satisfaction could be emotional satisfaction, reached arousal for them, or through arousal for you. Even if you inform them that it isn't arousing i wonder if they think it hast to be in at least a slight way/you're lying. Or they just have the habit of doing it with past partners because its commonly desired.

[tkadlubo]

I'm a heterosexual cis-man married to an asexual cis-woman who most of the time
wants her private parts to be left alone. I can share my experience of the
other side of a situation very similar to yours. YMMV.

TMI warnings: might get into some details of what sexual interaction includes.

First, let me get your 2 direct questions out of the way: Yes, touching my
wife's vulva is fun, and yes, respecting her boundaries about not being touched
there is not a showstopper for me. I am ashamed to admit that it was not always
the case and that it took me much time to understand and accept her point of
view. As for the second part of the second question, when she "helps me achieve
a climax" it sure "is enough for me", and it's something that I very deeply
appreciate. In fact it is our preferred form of sexual interaction.

One thing that each asexual-allosexual couple needs is great communication. You
can't rely on the biological and cultural default scenarios. The default
doesn't work well for you. You already know that. You need to negotiate a new
scenario that works for your specific situation. The solution that you want to
arrive at is probably somewhat counterintuitive, so you do face an extra
difficulty in communication about that. The scenario that you arrive at doesn't
have to be symmetrical, in fact it probably will not be. There is no law that
says that if one partner takes the clothes off the other has to take the
clothes off too, that fellatio needs to be reciprocated with cunnilingus, that
both partners need to experience an orgasm etc. etc.

Some hints about how to navigate that based on my experience: talk before
anything sexual happens, while you are both fully dressed and composed, to lay
out what would happen and what would not happen—and what might happen if it
seems like a good idea underway. Make it a dialog rather than a stern lecture
what must not be done to your body. Your partner is more likely to treat this
conversation seriously if he knows that his wants related to his body matter
too—and they are likely to include stimulation of his penis up to the point of
an orgasm as one of the most important points. Keep communicating during the
sexual act too. Combining verbal and non-verbal communication works better than
just non-verbal cues like moving the hand away: "I don't want to be touched
there" + move the hand away. Better still, you and your partner can make it a
habit to ask before doing anything: "Can I touch/kiss/stroke your earlobe/left
nipple/nose now?" and "Can you touch/kiss/stroke my earlobe/left nipple/nose
now?" In the absence of telepathy that really makes everything a lot easier.

I hope that you and your partner together will figure out how to have sex life
that works the best for both of you. :)

[Tarfeather]

The scenario that you arrive at doesn't

have to be symmetrical, in fact it probably will not be. There is no law that

says that if one partner takes the clothes off the other has to take the

clothes off too, that fellatio needs to be reciprocated with cunnilingus, that

both partners need to experience an orgasm etc. etc.

This is very true. Is it different for sexual-sexual couples? I've long since concluded that intimacy with my girlfriend must be asymmetrical. I never even thought that this may seem counter-intuitive to some.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Maybe because the idea that if their not engaging, that this is a sign that they're not interested?

Looking at this and giving it some though, it makes sense. If all that's ever put forward is that the interaction must be symmetrical, and on top of that there's the constant complaints about how things are always one sided, by logic we can erroneously arrive at the conclusion that interaction must be symmetrical at all times, this being counterproductive in cases. The opposite can also be true but it seems better to keep both perspectives in mind rather than try to make one of them absolute.

This is the kind of discussion that would have probably made things in the past, a whole lot easier and better.

[ByTheTracks]

Given the depth to which I explain things to them, I cannot help but wonder:

1.) Does the man receive any direct turn-on from fondling my sexual parts? Or am I still not communicating well enough to them that my sexual bits are irrelevant to what romantically/sensually turns me on?

2.) If the man does receive some direct pleasure from touching those parts of me then why wouldn't me helping them achieve a climax be enough for them?

Basing this off the sexual guys I know, I would guess the answers to your questions would be

1.) Yes. There are exceptions but the majority of sexual guys I know love breasts and love to touch them.

2.) I can't answer for sure, but I suspect that breasts are such a big appeal to some men, that not getting to touch them would be like being given a cake with no icing on it.

Exactly. Touching your breasts is as much *for* him as he might imagine it's *for* you. Going to other zones would be as much *for* him as he would imagine it is *for* you.

If you say NO, those areas are off limits, but you still get the impression (or stronger) that he would still like to pay attention to those areas, that's about *him* and *not* about *you*, which is OK if you allow it, not OK if you don't. But let's be clear in any negotiation - let's be clear who it's for. :)

[Lord Jade Cross]

Forgive my ignorance on the matter but would someone explain to me the fascination with breasts? I mean, I guess its common to look and all, especially if you have women around who have large breasts and don't put on an appropriate bra size making their breasts hang out a bit (not sure if that's a fad or just not taking the time to wear a correctly sized bra for them) or if they wear a bit too low cut shirt for their sizes and whatnot.

Still I don't get the wanting to touch/grab/fondle/etc. Mind imputing a bit of insight?

[Lost247365]

Forgive my ignorance on the matter but would someone explain to me the fascination with breasts? I mean, I guess its common to look and all, especially if you have women around who have large breasts and don't put on an appropriate bra size making their breasts hang out a bit (not sure if that's a fad or just not taking the time to wear a correctly sized bra for them) or if they wear a bit too low cut shirt for their sizes and whatnot.

Still I don't get the wanting to touch/grab/fondle/etc. Mind imputing a bit of insight?

I wish I could answer that, but I only experience aesthetic attraction to women. All I can say from that reference point is that they are one of the feature that makes women beautiful to me.

[Nazgir]

Forgive my ignorance on the matter but would someone explain to me the fascination with breasts? I mean, I guess its common to look and all, especially if you have women around who have large breasts and don't put on an appropriate bra size making their breasts hang out a bit (not sure if that's a fad or just not taking the time to wear a correctly sized bra for them) or if they wear a bit too low cut shirt for their sizes and whatnot.

Still I don't get the wanting to touch/grab/fondle/etc. Mind imputing a bit of insight?

As I've mentioned, I have no idea. I mean, as a sexual person I really like boobs, but if you'd ask me why (like you just did) I wouldn't be able to properly answer. My girlfriend has actually asked me this before, and the best I could come up with was that they just feel really nice somehow.

[Lord Jade Cross]

I find this interesting. Though I would like to find the reason behind it.

[ByTheTracks]

Forgive my ignorance on the matter but would someone explain to me the fascination with breasts? I mean, I guess its common to look and all, especially if you have women around who have large breasts and don't put on an appropriate bra size making their breasts hang out a bit (not sure if that's a fad or just not taking the time to wear a correctly sized bra for them) or if they wear a bit too low cut shirt for their sizes and whatnot.

Still I don't get the wanting to touch/grab/fondle/etc. Mind imputing a bit of insight?

I wish I could answer that, but I only experience aesthetic attraction to women. All I can say from that reference point is that they are one of the feature that makes women beautiful to me.

Echoed 100%. And they don't have to be large breasts with a small bra at all, at least for me. I think it's classical female beauty is all. It's odd now that you mention it. I wonder why I like them as well. I wonder if women who have aesthetic attraction to men have a reason for liking a bicep, or a six-pack, or a tight ass? :)

[Corretto]

Forgive my ignorance on the matter but would someone explain to me the fascination with breasts? I mean, I guess its common to look and all, especially if you have women around who have large breasts and don't put on an appropriate bra size making their breasts hang out a bit (not sure if that's a fad or just not taking the time to wear a correctly sized bra for them) or if they wear a bit too low cut shirt for their sizes and whatnot.

Still I don't get the wanting to touch/grab/fondle/etc. Mind imputing a bit of insight?

Males may be just as ignorant. I can only speak for myself, and I can't explain it. The motive is probably tucked away in the neuro-transmitters of the brain; not between his legs.

The size of the breast can be irrelevant; as can the presence of one's cleavage. NB Why have you omitted the possible relevance of the nipple? Purely from the point of aesthetic attraction, the nipple can have a special appeal.

Due to my personal aro-ace orientation, I have little understanding of the male's desire to "touch/grab/fondle" a woman's breasts. There must be something wrong with my neuro-transmitters.

I feel a degree of adversity coming into physical or visual contact with any 'part' of a woman's anatomy. Actually, from an aesthetic perspective, I don't relate to anyone's specific 'parts'.

I need to see a neurologist!