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Honey_Badger

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Hi everyone,

Fuzzipueo and I are starting up a massive book list, especially for those of you who are sick of randomly finding sex scenes or romances popping up in your books, or those of you who manage to find books with ace-spectrum characters in them.

We're going to be collecting books on three Goodreads shelves:

1) Books with no sex scenes. We're going to have a range here, from books where no sex scenes exist at all, through books that imply sex happened off screen (so you can feel free to ignore it) to books that fade to black in order to preserve our delicate sensibilities. 8) Fuzz and I are thinking of having a ratings system for this, something like a reverse of the "heat" ratings system, wherein 0 would be "zero sex" and five would be "people definitely had sex but we didn't have to hear about it or see it."

2) Books without romances. Everything on this shelf should be books without romance as a central plotline. Romances between secondary and supporting characters, as long as they're not a major plot line, don't count for this one. Although we want to use a simple number scale for this, the ratings system for this might be a little trickier on this, because romance is a tricky thing, and there might be different ratings for different books in a series - to use a well-known example, the Harry Potter series could arguably go on this shelf in it's entirety, but books 1-3 have zero romance for the main characters, book 4 would be, for the sake of argument, a one because there is a side-plot involving Harry's crush on Cho Chang, books 5 and 6 would be a 2 because Harry's relationships and Ron and Hermione's relationship actually become pertinent to the plot for more than a few chapters, and book 7 could arguably be bumped back down to a 1 because everyone's existing romances take a backseat to trying to defeat Voldemort.

3) Books with Ace characters! This one should be self-explanatory, though I was thinking of subdividing it into major and minor characters. Then again, we may not have to, as this might not turn out to be a very fast-growing shelf. :rolleyes: The character doesn't have to be stated by the author to be "asexual," (especially as a lot of authors don't know that we exist,) but there has to be some evidence that the character is possibly on the spectrum. We also won't be accepting robots, no matter how humanoid, so Mr. Data does not count.

These lists are for all genres, and all avenites, so we'd like your input on some of the following things:

- Where to draw the line between "ratings." We want both the sex and romance ratings to be 0-5, with 0 being "none" and 5 being "You can ignore it if you squint really hard." That said, it's easier to draw the line on the first shelf, and hard to separate a two from a three.

- Book suggestions! We want as many as you've got, and if you give them to us before we figure out the ratings system, we can always rate them later.

- Names for the shelves. The punnier the better, naturally. :cake:

Get ready, get set, discuss!

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Example book submission:

Title: Robots and Empire

Author: Isaac Asimov

Shelves it's eligible for: No Sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf (there's not even any kissing); 1 for no romance (Gladia and DG, who are by that point supporting characters, basically admit their crushes on each other in the last couple of chapters, and practically zero time is spent on any relationship other than friendship between any other characters.)

Other stuff: I liked it because even though the robots are clearly people, Asimov remembered not to make them exactly like humans. It's also one out of a series, but it is readable on it's own, because Asimov will catch you up on what happened before, and the main plot is pretty self-contained.

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Squirrel Combat

Well, Hatchet doesn't have a sex scene. Or an actual female character at that matter.

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I suppose Hatchet counts, even if there's one character and a bear. (And yeah, we'll accept JYA, YA, and single-character books - filling up the shelf!)

... I'll go add practically everything by Jean Craighead George, as her books are all about young people surviving alone in the wilderness.

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Title: Foundation & Foundation and Empire

Author: Isaac Asimov

Genre: Science Fiction | Adult*

Shelves it's eligible for: No Sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 1 for no romance

Other stuff: Asimov's "Psycho-history" set the boundaries for books to come such as Hyperion by Dan Simmons and the Dune series by Frank Herbert. The shear scope of the book and subsequent series relegates romance and other more mundane human activities to the background in favor of saving human civilization from disappearing from the universe. Though there is a couple in the second book, their relationship is mostly off screen and when we do see them, they're dealing with events which push the plot forward.

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Title: The Godmakers

Author: Frank Herbert

Genre: Science Fiction | Adult

Shelves it's eligible for: No Sex, a little (logical) romance [though not in the way Sarek meant]

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf (there's not even any kissing); 2 the characters are somewhat manipulated by events and family ties into being a couple. [EDIT] I've been listening to the audio of this book and realize that Lewis Orne really does have feelings for Diana. Turns out, they both try to manipulate the other ...

Other stuff: Lewis Orne, a powerful telekinetic, possesses a detective's instincts and shares a lot of similar abilities with Paul Atreides of the Dune series. He's able to bring together seemingly desperate pieces of information purely on observation and by using linguistics to create whole pictures out of puzzling scenarios. As he travels through his life and faces and overcomes various challenges, including being dead, Orne moves to the next stage of his transformation into being "psy-focus". By the end of the book, Lewis, much like Paul, has ascended to the next stage of human possibilities.

Originally brought out as four separate short stories, The Godmakers is one complete, slim volume well worth the reading.

[Edited to add "Adult" to the 'tags list']

*Adult just means that it isn't considered to be YA/NA (Young Adult [12-18 yrs] /New Adult [18-early 20s]). However, people who do not like science fiction will tell you all of it is juvenile and can't possibly considered "serious literature". What a bunch of baloney. In any case, being the snob I am, I will either tag these books as Science Fiction or SF, but never "sci-fi" which has been used by detractors of the genre as a way to put it down or otherwise denigrate it as schlock. Forrest Ackerman, who coined the term, was horrified by this usage and I am glad to see people who are using it to talk about all variations of the genre in a good way, so there may be hope still. Thank you for allowing me to rant. smiley-angry018.gif

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Title: My Side of the Mountain, along with it's sequels On the Far Side of the Mountain, and Frightful's Mountain

Author: Jean Craighead George

Shelves it's eligible for: No Sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 0 for no romance.

Other stuff: I always wonder how Sam could possibly have gotten away with not going to school, or why his parents are cool with him living in a hollow tree in the middle of the Catskills. I also feel like this entire book should be labeled with "do not try this at home" (or your nearest national park) but I remember loving this series as a kid. Remember, avenites, Peregrine falcons are not pets!

* * *

Title: Julie of the Wolves

Author: Jean Craighead George

Shelves it's eligible for: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 0 for no romance

Other stuff: Characters of color! :cake: Miyax (Julie) is a Yupik girl from Alaska who ran away from her distant relatives to try and make it to California: she survives by working with a local wolf pack.

* * *

Title: Voyage of the Frog

Author: Gary Paulesn

Shelves it's eligible for: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for no sex; 0 for no romance

Other stuff: This is really a book about a teenager grieving for his mentor while stranded on a boat trying to make it home. I remember crying a lot the first time I read it.

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Title: The Point of Hopes, The Point of Knives, The Point of Dreams, Fairs' Point (The Astrient series)
Author(s) Melissa Scott & Lisa A. Barnett
Genre: Fantasy | same sex pairing | Adult

Eligible Shelves: No on page sex (Phillip and Rathe share a bed and house, but we're only told about their trysts in the boxes at the playhouses and that's only hinted at) - in the terms of the series, they are lemans (an archaic term for lovers, though the word here has more connotations than just that), and there is no overt PDAs. In fact, the attraction between the pair is so subtle, you have read between the lines to pick up on it!

Suggested Ratings: 1 for barely there sex; 1 for squint really hard and you might see it romance... maybe (especially in "Hopes" and "Dreams" as these two books came out in the early 90s before m/m became popular or common).

Content Warning: Mostly violence and character deaths. There's barely any suggestion of romance, much less sex, and like I said above, you have to read between the line to even see that Phillip and Rathe have anything going on, especially in the first two books. This series came out in the early nineties, well before M/M became a subgenre in its own right and the ladies (who were life partners at the time [Lisa Barnett died of cancer several years ago]) were mindful of the reception of the ideas presented in these stories. It's a nice that things have changed so much since then that there are complaints about there not being enough obvious PDAs in the books these days ... LOL

Other Stuff: This series features a matrilineal society, one which takes astrology extremely seriously; one's future occupation is determined by the stars one is born under. This is also the only fantasy series I have ever encountered which features a binary star system. Society-wise, this series is on the same level as Elizabethan England, from the clothing to technology, with the added extras of magic, ghosttides, working astrology, and an interesting cast of characters.

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Title: Another Fine Myth (From the Myth Adventures Series)
Author(s): Robert Asprin
Genre: Fantasy | Parody

Eligible Shelves: No sex; I don't think there's any romance unless maybe you tip your head sideways?

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex, 0 romance unless someone who's read it more recently updates the rating. I don't know what goes on in the rest of the series, as I never finished it due to laziness / moving to college.

Other Stuff: Beware a thick and terrible layer of puns, dimension-hopping, and pop culture references that hark back to the 70's in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. (When they bother staying on Klah, that is.) There is also use of magical pogo sticks as transportation. Think Discworld, following one merry band of haphazard adventurers, but with puns you can break your teeth on.

* * *

Title: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Author(s): Douglas Adams
Genre: Sci-Fi | Comedy

Eligible Shelves: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 no sex; 1-2 ish for romance in later books when Arthur meets Fenchurch (Sorry guys, I keep meaning to finish So Long and Thanks For All the Fish, but my brother took it to college with him.)

Other Stuff: It is not exactly like the movie, nor is it like the radio plays that came before it. It elevates going off on tangents to an art form, and fans of cricket will be either extremely amused or mildly offended, depending on how seriously they take the sport and the aliens in question. It's also HUGE, guys, and never say Belgium if you ever meet any of the aliens.

* * *
Title: Witch World (others in the Witch World series may or may not be eligible.)
Author(s): Andre Norton (some others in the series are collaborative.)
Genre: Fantasy | sci-fi if you squint

Eligible Shelves: no sex

Suggested Ratings: 1: Although there is no on-page sex, the fact that Simon and Jaelithe would like to have it but can't without risking Jaelithe loosing her magical powers is a plot point during the beginning phases of their romance. In later books it becomes evident that they have had sex, but after their marriage and the birth of their children it's really never referenced again.

Other Stuff: More world-hopping, which is a personal favorite trope of mine. Estcarp is a mostly matriarchal society, where female virgins who have magical ability are the ruling class. (Your mileage may vary on whether or not the arrangement as it stands at the beginning of the book can be considered feminist, but the rules of Estcarp's society are constructed to uphold the status quo, not as reflections of how magic actually works: in later books it becomes evident that far more people than are traditionally allowed to be witches can wield magical power.)

Trigger warning below.

Trigger warning: in the first book, there is a section where one of Jaelithe's enemies plans to rape her in order to neutralize her magic. She escapes before that can happen, but it's still distressing to read.

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Honey_Badger - the spoiler code looks like this (without the spaces): [ spoiler ] [/ spoiler ]

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Honey_Badger - the spoiler code looks like this (without the spaces): [ spoiler ] [/ spoiler ]

Must've mistyped that when I first tried it. Mischief Managed!

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(A)rrogant Avian

Title: East Of Eden

Author(s): John Steinbeck

Genre: Fiction

Shelves it's eligible for: Asexual character ("Cathy learned when she was very young that sexuality with all its attendant yearnings and pains, jealousies and taboos, is the most disturbing impulse humans have..... ..... Cathy learned that by manipulation and use of this one part of people she could gain and keep power over nearly anyone. It was at once a weapon and a threat. It was irresistible. And since the blind helplessness seems never to have fallen on Cathy, it is probable that she had very little of the impulse herself and indeed felt a contempt for those who did. And when you think of it in one way, she was right.")

Suggested ratings: The asexual character is a very important character in the book, the antagonist to be exact.

Other stuff: It does state that anyone who doesn't have sexuality is a monster, ("What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked by and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be human. On would be a monster.") but the definition that the author gives for 'monster' is someone who is lacking something, or who was born without something, and he provides quite a bit of sympathy for 'monsters', saying, "You must not forget that a monster is only a variation, and that to a monster the norm is monstrous."

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A blank for ease of use.

Title:
Author(s):
Genre:

Eligible Shelves:

Suggested Ratings:

Content Warning/Tags:

Other Stuff:

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Title: The Dark is Rising Sequence: Under Sea, Under Stone; The Dark is Rising, The Greenwitch; The Grey King; Silver on the Tree
Author(s): Susan Cooper
Genre: epic/mythopoeic Fantasy

Eligible Shelves: No sex; no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for sex; 0 for romance

Other Stuff: These books predate Harry Potter by several decades (Under Sea, Under Stone came out in 1965; The Dark is Rising arrived in 1973) and feature Arthurian themes, history, magic, time travel, mythic battles between the Light and the Dark, and is at its heart a quest fantasy in both micro and macro forms since each quest leads in turn to the next bigger prize. Most of the protagonists are under the age of twelve at the start, but don't make the mistake of thinking these are purely kids' books as they are full of themes people of all ages can appreciate.

=+=+=+=<>=+=+=+=

Title: Pern: Harper Hall Trilogy: Dragonsong, Dragonsinger; Dragondrums
Author(s): Anne McCaffrey
Genre: author's choice: Science Fiction (though they do read more like fantasy) / YA

Eligible Shelves: No sex; Slight romance; possible trigger warnings (see below)*

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex; 1 romance

Other Stuff: The events of the first two books of The Harper Hall Trilogy take place on at approximately the same time period that Dragonflight and Dragonquest occur, and are told from the point of view of Menolly, the youngest daughter of the holder at Half-Circle Sea Hold. Menolly is a gifted musician, an occupation that both flummoxes and bewilders her dour and down to earth parents. When the only friend Menolly has dies, she finds she has to make hard choices that will test her courage and her durability, especially when the thread starts falling.

*

Menolly's parents can be considered abusive, both by neglect and child endangerment (when Menolly cuts one of her hands while gutting fish, the cut gets infected and her mother essentially allows the infection to continue in the hopes of dissuading her youngest from playing music). Also, they make no attempts to find her when she finally runs away from the hold.

Dragondrums follows the adventures of Piemur, Menolly's first friend at Harper Hall, when his voice changes and he finds himself in a position to help Masterharper Robinton with his more clandestine activities. Piemur meets and quickly forms a crush on Sharra, the sister of a holder on the Southern continent, though it is never fully realized.

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... A friend of mine calls Pern, and the other books from that era where a medieval-ish fantasy world is really another planet or dimension, "Swords and Starships." :D

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Honey_Badger - the spoiler code looks like this (without the spaces): [ spoiler ] [/ spoiler ]

Thank you. I've been meaning to ask this, but never think about it when I'm actually posting.

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Title: Nor Crystal Tears
Author(s): Alan Dean Foster
Genre: Science Fiction | Adult

Eligible Shelves: No sex; no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex; 0 romance

Other Stuff: Set in Foster's Humanx Commonwealth series, which includes the Pip and Flinx Adventures, Icerigger, and others, Nor Crystal Tears is the book in which the first contact between the Thranx and humans occurs. Written when Foster was at his best, it's an excellent first contact book and an excellent science fiction book in its own right.

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Title: Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, Time Travelers Strictly Cash, Callahan's Secret
Author(s): Spider Robinson
Genre: Science Fiction | Adult

Eligible Shelves: Mentions relationship stuff, but only in passing

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex; 1 minor to the plot romance

Content Warning: Probably innuendo mostly, so be prepared. There's mention of off page character deaths and the none of the guys or gals in these books are saints. I do know that the related books Callahan's Lady & Lady Slings the Booze are set in a brothel, so I never read either one of those.

Other Stuff: Beware, you're about to enter the punishment zone. Set in Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, the denizens of Callahan's get into any number of hijinks, including pun wars, stopping alien invaders (more than once), and drink beer like it's going out of style. Robinson has hinted heavily over the years that Callahan is a member of a certain time traveling race, ahem ... Anyway, think of the show 'Cheers', add a dose of weird wordsmiths, and be prepared to duck.

{-{-{-}-}-}

Title: Alan Mendelsohn, The Boy From Mars
Author(s): Alan Pinkwater
Genre: SF-Fantasy Realism | Not quite young adult

Eligible Shelves: No sex; no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex; 0 romance

Content Warning: Can whistling to trip someone who is a bully can be considered to be a bully tactic in itself, I guess that counts. Mostly silliness and fun things like trying to psychically make people do silly things or get bricks to levitate occur. Also, Leonard's parents insist on sending him to a therapist to help him adjust (he's thinks it's BS).

Other Stuff: Leonard finds himself a fish out of water at his new Junior High until he meets Alan Mendelsohn who claims to be from Mars and proceeds to make school a far more interesting place to be. Together the pair visit used bookshops, eat the world's hottest chili, discover abilities beyond the ken, and confound their teachers with real world knowledge. Best of all, it's a Daniel Pinkwater novel. How can you go wrong?

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Series: Alex Verus: Fated, Cursed, Taken, Hidden, and Veiled will be out later this year.

Author(s): Benedict Jacka
Genre: Fantasy | Adult

Eligible Shelves: No Sex; No Romance (though the possibility is discussed in passing and having to do with how Verus himself deals with his potential apprentice Luna).

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex; 0 romance

Content Warning: Much like Harry Dresden, Alex Verus lives in the mage world where people can and do die violently. There are rivalries, brokered deals, people who forced into a type of slavery to Dark mages, dangerous magical constructs created for maximum violence, and, at times, just general mayhem. And despite being the weakest of the mage types, Alex is anything but a push over and he will kill to protect himself and those he cares about. He's also not very trusting of others, so if there is romance on the horizon, it's in the future.

Other Stuff: Fun read, set in contemporary London. Alex Verus is an oracle, someone who can see and sort through future possibilities to the best outcome. When he's not running around getting in everyone's way or trying to dodge someone's killing magic, Verus runs a shop selling curios, herbs, and other arcane things, but keeps a stack of business cards for a magic shop up the road for more mundane tricks. He also considers Harry Dresden to be something of an urban legend. >snickers<

>side note: I would love to see Jim Butcher, Benedict Jacka, and Ben Aaronovitch write a crossover story with Dresden, Verus, and Peter Grant encountering each other for the first time ...<

====><====><====><====

Series: Peter Grant: Midnight Riot (aka The Rivers of London), Moon Over Soho, Whispers Underground, Foxglove Summer, The Hanging Tree will be out later this year.
Author(s): Ben Aaronovitch
Genre: Fantasy | Adult

Eligible Shelves: No sex; A possible hint of forbidden romance since Peter has a thing for one of the rivers, Beverly Brook

Suggested Ratings: 0 sex; 1 possible romance

Content Warning: Character deaths both on and off the page, at least one person has his face peeled off from the inside out (it is gory), one family dies at the hands of vampires (off page), another family is destroyed by magic, and there is an autopsy involved. Also, Peter does kind of hope that Lesley, the other junior PC he works with, is willing to spend a night with him though she never does. He's surprisingly stoic about the whole thing really. LOL

Other Stuff: Fun read, set in contemporary London. PC Peter Grant has just graduated into actual police work when he meets a ghost and suddenly finds he has an affinity for magic. He's full of acerbic comments about police work and what it really entails, the people he encounters, and even his own boss, DCI Thomas Nightengale, who also happens to be the only living mage. Along the way Peter also make the acquaintanceship of the gods and goddesses of the Thames River, encounters a murderous ghost, and acquires a dog named Toby.

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  • 3 weeks later...

* * *

Title: Julie of the Wolves

Author: Jean Craighead George

Shelves it's eligible for: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 0 for no romance

Other stuff: Characters of color! :cake: Miyax (Julie) is a Yupik girl from Alaska who ran away from her distant relatives to try and make it to California: she survives by working with a local wolf pack.

Oh. Just a comment on this. Apparently there is a scene of attempted rape?

I read this book for school in grade 6 and I don't remember the scene (at the time I didn't notice it either).

But someone mentioned that to me and Wikipedia mentions it.

I am not sure if the scene is super vague or if I was just ignorant.

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Title: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Author(s): Douglas Adams

Genre: Sci-Fi | Comedy

Eligible Shelves: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 no sex; 1-2 ish for romance in later books when Arthur meets Fenchurch (Sorry guys, I keep meaning to finish So Long and Thanks For All the Fish, but my brother took it to college with him.)

Other Stuff: It is not exactly like the movie, nor is it like the radio plays that came before it. It elevates going off on tangents to an art form, and fans of cricket will be either extremely amused or mildly offended, depending on how seriously they take the sport and the aliens in question. It's also HUGE, guys, and never say Belgium if you ever meet any of the aliens.

Not sure if you are listing this as the full series or simply the book but one of the later books (possible So Long) has some definite sex. It's been a while since I've read it so I can't remember how much detail we get. But it happens and you know for sure that it is happening (on screen).

Title: East Of Eden

Author(s): John Steinbeck

Genre: Fiction

Shelves it's eligible for: Asexual character ("Cathy learned when she was very young that sexuality with all its attendant yearnings and pains, jealousies and taboos, is the most disturbing impulse humans have..... ..... Cathy learned that by manipulation and use of this one part of people she could gain and keep power over nearly anyone. It was at once a weapon and a threat. It was irresistible. And since the blind helplessness seems never to have fallen on Cathy, it is probable that she had very little of the impulse herself and indeed felt a contempt for those who did. And when you think of it in one way, she was right.")

Suggested ratings: The asexual character is a very important character in the book, the antagonist to be exact.

Other stuff: It does state that anyone who doesn't have sexuality is a monster, ("What freedom men and women could have, were they not constantly tricked by and trapped and enslaved and tortured by their sexuality! The only drawback in that freedom is that without it one would not be human. On would be a monster.") but the definition that the author gives for 'monster' is someone who is lacking something, or who was born without something, and he provides quite a bit of sympathy for 'monsters', saying, "You must not forget that a monster is only a variation, and that to a monster the norm is monstrous."

WOWW !!!!!! I never picked up on this!!! (I mean I guess that makes sense because I am still new to the idea of asexuality.)

I adore John Steinbeck and this was one of my favourite books by him. Knowing this about Cathy makes me want to re-read it ...

Also a head's up about this one. There is definitely some pretty sexual content (with Cathy and the brothel). I've only read this

once so I'm not sure what kind of rating it should get for that but maybe a warning to more sensitive readers.

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* * *

Title: Julie of the Wolves

Author: Jean Craighead George

Shelves it's eligible for: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 0 for no romance

Other stuff: Characters of color! :cake: Miyax (Julie) is a Yupik girl from Alaska who ran away from her distant relatives to try and make it to California: she survives by working with a local wolf pack.

Oh. Just a comment on this. Apparently there is a scene of attempted rape?

I read this book for school in grade 6 and I don't remember the scene (at the time I didn't notice it either).

But someone mentioned that to me and Wikipedia mentions it.

I am not sure if the scene is super vague or if I was just ignorant.

You bring up an interesting point, in this and your other post, one I've been thinking about for a while: how subtle innuendo, delicate language, and euphemism used when describing or otherwise discussing sex in books (especially from earlier eras) can actually cause scenes obvious to some to go straight over the heads of others. I totally did not understand what was happening to Tess D'Uberville during the scenes out on the moor until well after I finished reading the book. The language was confusing and murky, so all I knew was that something awful had happened*, I just did not know what. I came away from the book feeling sullied and icked out (Jude the Obscure was just depressing), with a very low opinion of the author.

*

Tess is raped

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* * *

Title: Julie of the Wolves

Author: Jean Craighead George

Shelves it's eligible for: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 0 for no romance

Other stuff: Characters of color! :cake: Miyax (Julie) is a Yupik girl from Alaska who ran away from her distant relatives to try and make it to California: she survives by working with a local wolf pack.

Oh. Just a comment on this. Apparently there is a scene of attempted rape?

I read this book for school in grade 6 and I don't remember the scene (at the time I didn't notice it either).

But someone mentioned that to me and Wikipedia mentions it.

I am not sure if the scene is super vague or if I was just ignorant.

You bring up an interesting point, in this and your other post, one I've been thinking about for a while: how subtle innuendo, delicate language, and euphemism used when describing or otherwise discussing sex in books (especially from earlier eras) can actually cause scenes obvious to some to go straight over the heads of others. I totally did not understand what was happening to Tess D'Uberville during the scenes out on the moor until well after I finished reading the book. The language was confusing and murky, so all I knew was that something awful had happened*, I just did not know what. I came away from the book feeling sullied and icked out (Jude the Obscure was just depressing), with a very low opinion of the author.

*

Tess is raped

I think you could indicate this somehow with your rating system (which you have already addressed somewhat by including a rating for sexual content that is hinted at rather than explicitly described.) However, the reason I commented on this specifically is that the sexual content falls under the category of assault /abuse rather than consensual acts. I find that I am very sensitive to content relating to sexual assault but am not terribly bothered by consensual sexual content.

Some books indicate what happened without going into detail. I can deal with this. Some books (Julie of the wolves. Just listen by Sarah Dessen) are so subtle that it's easy to miss. You know how movies will have a broad rating such as "PG 13" and then a quick description of the reason such as "teen partying, brief language and brief nudity" ... Maybe you could try something like that? Without making it too complicated. Have a number rating for sexual content and a number rating for romance. Then include a quick warning about the nature of the content. I don't know if this is over complicating things. Just a thought.

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Dodecahedron314

There are several other threads on AVEN like this, especially for YA and SF/F for some reason, but this has the clearest format. It would be a lot of work to transfer/consolidate everything, especially on mobile, but I'd be willing to if and when I had the time. I now know where to go to extend my never-ending reading list, though!

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There are several other threads on AVEN like this, especially for YA and SF/F for some reason, but this has the clearest format. It would be a lot of work to transfer/consolidate everything, especially on mobile, but I'd be willing to if and when I had the time. I now know where to go to extend my never-ending reading list, though!

We tried to be as clear as we could be, but like littlefox said, there are some things that could be added and or clarified. The point here is to centralize all of those threads, and hopefully start a couple of Goodreads lists with these books for people who might prefer to read books with little to no sexual or romantic content. And hopefully generate some discussion on these books too, cause, I love to talk books. :D

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* * *

Title: Julie of the Wolves

Author: Jean Craighead George

Shelves it's eligible for: no sex, no romance

Suggested Ratings: 0 for the no sex shelf; 0 for no romance

Other stuff: Characters of color! :cake: Miyax (Julie) is a Yupik girl from Alaska who ran away from her distant relatives to try and make it to California: she survives by working with a local wolf pack.

Oh. Just a comment on this. Apparently there is a scene of attempted rape?

I read this book for school in grade 6 and I don't remember the scene (at the time I didn't notice it either).

But someone mentioned that to me and Wikipedia mentions it.

I am not sure if the scene is super vague or if I was just ignorant.

You bring up an interesting point, in this and your other post, one I've been thinking about for a while: how subtle innuendo, delicate language, and euphemism used when describing or otherwise discussing sex in books (especially from earlier eras) can actually cause scenes obvious to some to go straight over the heads of others. I totally did not understand what was happening to Tess D'Uberville during the scenes out on the moor until well after I finished reading the book. The language was confusing and murky, so all I knew was that something awful had happened*, I just did not know what. I came away from the book feeling sullied and icked out (Jude the Obscure was just depressing), with a very low opinion of the author.

*

Tess is raped

I think you could indicate this somehow with your rating system (which you have already addressed somewhat by including a rating for sexual content that is hinted at rather than explicitly described.) However, the reason I commented on this specifically is that the sexual content falls under the category of assault /abuse rather than consensual acts. I find that I am very sensitive to content relating to sexual assault but am not terribly bothered by consensual sexual content.

Some books indicate what happened without going into detail. I can deal with this. Some books (Julie of the wolves. Just listen by Sarah Dessen) are so subtle that it's easy to miss. You know how movies will have a broad rating such as "PG 13" and then a quick description of the reason such as "teen partying, brief language and brief nudity" ... Maybe you could try something like that? Without making it too complicated. Have a number rating for sexual content and a number rating for romance. Then include a quick warning about the nature of the content. I don't know if this is over complicating things. Just a thought.

Maybe a another line that says Content Warnings or something similar? Tags are helpful too these days.

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There are several other threads on AVEN like this, especially for YA and SF/F for some reason, but this has the clearest format. It would be a lot of work to transfer/consolidate everything, especially on mobile, but I'd be willing to if and when I had the time. I now know where to go to extend my never-ending reading list, though!

We tried to be as clear as we could be, but like littlefox said, there are some things that could be added and or clarified. The point here is to centralize all of those threads, and hopefully start a couple of Goodreads lists with these books for people who might prefer to read books with little to no sexual or romantic content. And hopefully generate some discussion on these books too, cause, I love to talk books. :D

Maybe once we get the lists figured out a little more /the rating system we could start some book discussion threads. (I'm not on Goodreads anymore so I can't really do it there ...) As much as I like general book talk, I also REALLY like talking about specific books.

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What about characters who reproduce, but not via copulation?

Like Miles and his bride from the Vorkasigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold? They use uterine replicators for their kids. It's an interesting concept which has real world basis these days. And the romance between them is actually a mix of sweet and contentious, something I like to read myself.

Also, though less of a benign nature in origin or intent, there are the axlotl tanks that appear in Dune which are used to create gholas (which are pretty much types of clones).

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There are several other threads on AVEN like this, especially for YA and SF/F for some reason, but this has the clearest format. It would be a lot of work to transfer/consolidate everything, especially on mobile, but I'd be willing to if and when I had the time. I now know where to go to extend my never-ending reading list, though!

We tried to be as clear as we could be, but like littlefox said, there are some things that could be added and or clarified. The point here is to centralize all of those threads, and hopefully start a couple of Goodreads lists with these books for people who might prefer to read books with little to no sexual or romantic content. And hopefully generate some discussion on these books too, cause, I love to talk books. :D

Maybe once we get the lists figured out a little more /the rating system we could start some book discussion threads. (I'm not on Goodreads anymore so I can't really do it there ...) As much as I like general book talk, I also REALLY like talking about specific books.

Sounds good to me.

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Could there also be a YA or teen lit or adult specification for each? I'd like to get into more books written for adults so it would be helpful to do so. And since most seem to have sex themes, I haven't been able to.

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Could there also be a YA or teen lit or adult specification for each? I'd like to get into more books written for adults so it would be helpful to do so. And since most seem to have sex themes, I haven't been able to.

Good and fair question. A lot of the books posted above have no sex/romance in them and most are adult books since those what I read the most, but, I will go through and try to clarify what is and isn't YA/NA.

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