Whats the difference between bigender and genderfluid?

[Autumnwind]

The question above is the full length question

i'm trying to figure out my identity, and i'm getting lost between the two of them trying to understand the difference

as sometimes i'm male sometimes i'm female

to put it simple and not go on forever i still in all of this am born female and happy with saying and being female.

Even if i feel both or none sometimes.

[Makalasterlove]

Genderfluid is the descriptor term for someone who moves between genders. Bigender is the identity, so that means someone who is bigender fluctuates between two genders.

[Lydian]

http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Bigender

I'd say you're gender fluid, but this should give you a better idea on the difference.

[Heart]

I've always thought of genderfluid as being fluid between more than two genders, whereas bigender to me means you "switch" back and forth between two genders. Usually those two genders are man and woman, but I don't think they have to be, whereas a genderfluid person may switch between four or five genders, or be between genders, etc.

Edit: I just clicked the link above... It seems to me that what they describe as the definition of bigender (wanting to have the sexual characteristics from two genders) is, to me, androgyny. If I had read the description and not the word, I would have said someone fitting that would be an androgyne. But I know that definitions vary a lot between different communities. Bigender is a psychologically-recognised phenonema though, so you could also look it up in scholarly articles if you so choose :) Alternatively, the wikipedia page is here, which seems to match up with my pre-conception of it.

[dash]

Bigender is about having two genders, either at once or at different times, but only two. (Like trigender is about having three.)

Gender fluid is either about moving fluidly between (any number of) genders, or having no fixed gender (it's always fluid).

I realized after a while that describing myself with these words wasn't accurate, because it was describing what other people SAW rather than what I am. Now I say "gender discontinuous," or just explain in more detail.

[butterflydreams]

Yeah...the difference is...subtle. At least, for me it is.

Years ago, I remember thinking that I was genderfluid, though at that time, I basically buried it. It wasn't until showing up here that it resurfaced. Only now, I realized there was something called agender, which I hadn't known about before. That fit best of all, and then being able to incorporate it with my "genderfluid" really pulled things together.

I guess with something like androgyne, I imagine that as characteristics existing at once, which is not the case for me. Genderfluid also makes me think of a general swing with lots of inbetweens. For me bigender means two distinct genders. It's the distinct thing that makes it for me. Almost like two people, but not quite. For me specifically, I have some choice about which one is expressed/felt at any given time. I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of the feminine half. I developed some control over it, though not all. If I stopped being self aware, which happens from time to time, I notice that each gender finds its way up to the surface at different times.

Anyway, for me, the difference is that distinct split. Each one is very specific.

[dash]

Yeah...the difference is...subtle. At least, for me it is.

Years ago, I remember thinking that I was genderfluid, though at that time, I basically buried it. It wasn't until showing up here that it resurfaced. Only now, I realized there was something called agender, which I hadn't known about before. That fit best of all, and then being able to incorporate it with my "genderfluid" really pulled things together.

I guess with something like androgyne, I imagine that as characteristics existing at once, which is not the case for me. Genderfluid also makes me think of a general swing with lots of inbetweens. For me bigender means two distinct genders. It's the distinct thing that makes it for me. Almost like two people, but not quite. For me specifically, I have some choice about which one is expressed/felt at any given time. I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of the feminine half. I developed some control over it, though not all. If I stopped being self aware, which happens from time to time, I notice that each gender finds its way up to the surface at different times.

Anyway, for me, the difference is that distinct split. Each one is very specific.

Wow that's sort of like how gender is for me.

Sometimes I think of it like sides of a die -- they are all existent all the time, even if only one is facing "up" at any given moment.

For me it's something I only have partial control over, in that it's contextual. So I can choose my context to some degree, but not my gender. My family used to misunderstand this (when I identified as "gender fluid") and basically be like, "so if you're a girl sometimes, then why don't you feel comfortable wearing feminine clothes to [family function]?" as part of a very long campaign to get me to do so. They interpreted "gender fluid" in the way that they hoped would get the behavior they wanted out of me, conforming to cis-heteronormative ways of dressing. Except I was never a woman in that context and I never felt comfortable wearing those kinds of clothes in a family context. My gender isn't a "choice," like I can just choose to be the gender (and comfortable in the gender expression) that will make some family members happiest with me.

That's what doesn't work for me with that term. It makes people think I always have some inner woman that they can tell me when and how to express, since it's all a "choice." If I cosplay femme and it works for me in that context, it's "why can't you wear that to a family function?"

It's interesting you mention "almost like two people, but not quite" because I've also thought it it in those terms -- not actually multiplicity in that it's only on this axis, but yet there are distinct, co-existent gender-selves with their own very strong opinions on things, and their own respective histories of being respected/validated (and seen to the exclusion of everything else), or disrespected/invalidated. And like you say "I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of my feminine half," I think this is from years of actively repressing the hell out of my male parts (and the reasons I did that).

But even my feminine side doesn't feel like a "woman." I happen to have this body, but that sense of gender hasn't changed since childhood. I'm read as a woman but I rarely feel like one. More like "I'm a girl and I have a grown up body!" than feeling like a "woman." I like looking pretty for cosplay, but for the rest of the year I feel dysphoria about it, because it doesn't match. I'm just plain not supposed to have breasts, it's all just wrong. :-(

[Heart]

Yeah...the difference is...subtle. At least, for me it is.

Years ago, I remember thinking that I was genderfluid, though at that time, I basically buried it. It wasn't until showing up here that it resurfaced. Only now, I realized there was something called agender, which I hadn't known about before. That fit best of all, and then being able to incorporate it with my "genderfluid" really pulled things together.

I guess with something like androgyne, I imagine that as characteristics existing at once, which is not the case for me. Genderfluid also makes me think of a general swing with lots of inbetweens. For me bigender means two distinct genders. It's the distinct thing that makes it for me. Almost like two people, but not quite. For me specifically, I have some choice about which one is expressed/felt at any given time. I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of the feminine half. I developed some control over it, though not all. If I stopped being self aware, which happens from time to time, I notice that each gender finds its way up to the surface at different times.

Anyway, for me, the difference is that distinct split. Each one is very specific.

Wow that's sort of like how gender is for me.

Sometimes I think of it like sides of a die -- they are all existent all the time, even if only one is facing "up" at any given moment.

For me it's something I only have partial control over, in that it's contextual. So I can choose my context to some degree, but not my gender. My family used to misunderstand this (when I identified as "gender fluid") and basically be like, "so if you're a girl sometimes, then why don't you feel comfortable wearing feminine clothes to [family function]?" as part of a very long campaign to get me to do so. They interpreted "gender fluid" in the way that they hoped would get the behavior they wanted out of me, conforming to cis-heteronormative ways of dressing. Except I was never a woman in that context and I never felt comfortable wearing those kinds of clothes in a family context. My gender isn't a "choice," like I can just choose to be the gender (and comfortable in the gender expression) that will make some family members happiest with me.

That's what doesn't work for me with that term. It makes people think I always have some inner woman that they can tell me when and how to express, since it's all a "choice." If I cosplay femme and it works for me in that context, it's "why can't you wear that to a family function?"

It's interesting you mention "almost like two people, but not quite" because I've also thought it it in those terms -- not actually multiplicity in that it's only on this axis, but yet there are distinct, co-existent gender-selves with their own very strong opinions on things, and their own respective histories of being respected/validated (and seen to the exclusion of everything else), or disrespected/invalidated. And like you say "I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of my feminine half," I think this is from years of actively repressing the hell out of my male parts (and the reasons I did that).

But even my feminine side doesn't feel like a "woman." I happen to have this body, but that sense of gender hasn't changed since childhood. I'm read as a woman but I rarely feel like one. More like "I'm a girl and I have a grown up body!" than feeling like a "woman." I like looking pretty for cosplay, but for the rest of the year I feel dysphoria about it, because it doesn't match. I'm just plain not supposed to have breasts, it's all just wrong. :-(

I really like how you two describe your experiences, because mine is completely different. I identify as genderfluid explicitly because I don't feel discreet points of gender. I'll feel more feminine-ish one day, a bit less so the next, and maybe the next that will be even less feminine with a little neutrois mixed in, and over weeks or months I might eventually find myself feeling neutrois 100%, then staying there for a while, and maybe swinging to something else later.

When I came out as genderfluid to one person, they asked me to keep them informed of my gender. They were trying to be respectful and learn/understand more. I thought it was a great idea, but I soon figured out that I don't exist on discreet points; what is described above is not my experience at all. A lot of the time I had to say "I just don't know where I'm headed right now. I'm not X anymore really, and I think I'm just moving somewhere, but ask again in a week and I'll maybe know better."

I think that may be the key difference between bigender and genderfluid. I know that dash doesn't identify necessarily as bigender, but if you take Hadley and I's experiences, I think they demonstrate well the difference: Hadley "flips" in a binary from agender to woman and back. I "swing like a pendulum" rather than "flip like a switch", and I go through any number of genders. I've never really kept track of how many, to be honest. But I think the switch vs pendulum analogy is a good one!

PS - I cant control my swings any more than others can control their switches, so I know where you're coming from dash! It's so annoying and just plain painful when you get blamed for being a certain gender, as if your tendency to change somehow automatically means you can control it :(

[butterflydreams]

Can I just say, I read these posts while I was at work and was so excited! I couldn't wait to get home so I could give a proper, thought out response. Apologies in advance for the length...I did say I was excited ;)

Wow that's sort of like how gender is for me.

Sometimes I think of it like sides of a die -- they are all existent all the time, even if only one is facing "up" at any given moment.

Wow. I really love this. What a great analogy! I would agree with this kind of assessment 100%.

For me it's something I only have partial control over, in that it's contextual. So I can choose my context to some degree, but not my gender. My family used to misunderstand this (when I identified as "gender fluid") and basically be like, "so if you're a girl sometimes, then why don't you feel comfortable wearing feminine clothes to [family function]?" as part of a very long campaign to get me to do so. They interpreted "gender fluid" in the way that they hoped would get the behavior they wanted out of me, conforming to cis-heteronormative ways of dressing. Except I was never a woman in that context and I never felt comfortable wearing those kinds of clothes in a family context. My gender isn't a "choice," like I can just choose to be the gender (and comfortable in the gender expression) that will make some family members happiest with me.

This definitely makes sense to me. I certainly didn't mean to imply I have control over it in the sense of it being a choice, because I don't. I think you've done a better job at articulating the idea than I did. One of the reasons it was so hard for me to arrive at the identity I have now is that there were many non-gendered factors in my life that influenced (mostly negatively) who and how I was. I know I've mentioned elsewhere here that the primary thing that's driven my "gender expression" to date was an absolutely crippling fear of being noticed, or seen as different. I did what I had to do to get by. I buried the feminine and let what I now understand as agender to run the day, even though that caused problems too :(. We were both still there, but I built up a kind of safety valve, to shut down the feminine from getting out. It's only been recently, in getting rid of that valve, have I seen how negatively it impacted my life.

That's what doesn't work for me with that term. It makes people think I always have some inner woman that they can tell me when and how to express, since it's all a "choice." If I cosplay femme and it works for me in that context, it's "why can't you wear that to a family function?"

Exactly. For me, since agendered has run the day for so long, it's hard to hear what she wants sometimes. And I still have the paralyzing fear of being seen as different or noticed. So for now, she doesn't get to express outwardly in any substantial way outside of the house. I'm learning a lot of little tricks though that make her/me feel good all throughout the day, even if she/me doesn't get to wear the clothes she wants. There are LOTS of other things! And I can do all that while working towards the full expression.

It's interesting you mention "almost like two people, but not quite" because I've also thought it it in those terms -- not actually multiplicity in that it's only on this axis, but yet there are distinct, co-existent gender-selves with their own very strong opinions on things, and their own respective histories of being respected/validated (and seen to the exclusion of everything else), or disrespected/invalidated. And like you say "I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of my feminine half," I think this is from years of actively repressing the hell out of my male parts (and the reasons I did that).

LOVE this! ^_^ Even in the times when I was suppressing her/me, she was still there. She's the one who's spontaneous. She's the one who likes to laugh, and dance, and hug friends, and snuggle up in the back seat of my friend's car, and so many other things that make me, me! That's where I get the almost two people, but not quite. "Distinct, co-existent gender-selves"...god I love that!

But even my feminine side doesn't feel like a "woman." I happen to have this body, but that sense of gender hasn't changed since childhood. I'm read as a woman but I rarely feel like one. More like "I'm a girl and I have a grown up body!" than feeling like a "woman." I like looking pretty for cosplay, but for the rest of the year I feel dysphoria about it, because it doesn't match. I'm just plain not supposed to have breasts, it's all just wrong. :-(

"Girl and I have a grown up body!" is very close to how I'd describe myself, except replacing girl with boy (though I'm not sure I was ever even really comfortable as "boy"). I was just a kid (there's that agenderedness :P). I'm sorry you feel dysphoria so often. Hopefully you're able to find ways to mitigate or even eliminate that. I'm still exploring my feelings about my body and how I look. I know I hate it and always have, but I don't know why, so I'm not calling it dysphoria yet. So I can't offer any experienced-based advice there.

I really like how you two describe your experiences, because mine is completely different. I identify as genderfluid explicitly because I don't feel discreet points of gender. I'll feel more feminine-ish one day, a bit less so the next, and maybe the next that will be even less feminine with a little neutrois mixed in, and over weeks or months I might eventually find myself feeling neutrois 100%, then staying there for a while, and maybe swinging to something else later.

This is exactly how I imagine genderfluid in my head, and exactly why I didn't feel quite right with it myself. It's that swinging and hitting the in-betweens. I think when I originally described myself as "genderfluid" I was understanding it as more "gender-flexible". I didn't know anything about gendered anything then though! So I was just making up words that sounded reasonable.

When I came out as genderfluid to one person, they asked me to keep them informed of my gender. They were trying to be respectful and learn/understand more. I thought it was a great idea, but I soon figured out that I don't exist on discreet points; what is described above is not my experience at all. A lot of the time I had to say "I just don't know where I'm headed right now. I'm not X anymore really, and I think I'm just moving somewhere, but ask again in a week and I'll maybe know better."

Holy hell, that person sounds awesome. I seriously don't think I know, or have known anyone like that in real life. That's so cool that you know someone like that! I completely see what you're saying though. Now that I know you're a physicist, maybe I can get away with the following analogy: Your genderfluid signal is more analog. Completely continuous. Completely smooth and fluid. Whereas a bigender (trigender, polygender) signal would be digital. It might look relatively continuous, but closer inspection reveals it's actually discrete, distinct bits.

I think that may be the key difference between bigender and genderfluid. I know that dash doesn't identify necessarily as bigender, but if you take Hadley and I's experiences, I think they demonstrate well the difference: Hadley "flips" in a binary from agender to woman and back. I "swing like a pendulum" rather than "flip like a switch", and I go through any number of genders. I've never really kept track of how many, to be honest. But I think the switch vs pendulum analogy is a good one!

PS - I cant control my swings any more than others can control their switches, so I know where you're coming from dash! It's so annoying and just plain painful when you get blamed for being a certain gender, as if your tendency to change somehow automatically means you can control it :(

Pendulum and switch...that's great! I was about to say something how I didn't think the switch analogy was quite right for me, but then in thinking about it, yeah, it pretty much is! Beyond that...it's really hard to describe. I'm sure it doesn't help that I'm still relatively new in being open and accepting to what it means when it flips. I think sometimes, they're very spontaneous and may last only a short while. Other times, they're slower, more subtle, but may last longer. I will say, it's a very different, and far more relaxing experience to just let it happen and roll with it.

[whitesphere]

I'm masculine and identify as a man, but have strong feminine qualities. I have no problem doing tasks that are supposedly gender specific, if I have skill for it --- such as cooking, cleaning, science, math, etc. I also use logic, emotion and intuition, strength and yielding as needed. But I feel like one integrated person.

I'm sure I'm missing something major here, but, if I'm reading these posts correctly, genderfluid and bi-gender are about the outward appearance and mannerisms of the person? Or am I missing something.

I'm saying this because I didn't really think many people fit 100% neatly into one gender box from a behavior standpoint and don't see how saying "Today I feel more feminine or masculine" is literally being different people at the same time, as much as it is one person with non-gender-specific traits/interests/etc.

[dash]

Can I just say, I read these posts while I was at work and was so excited! I couldn't wait to get home so I could give a proper, thought out response. Apologies in advance for the length...I did say I was excited ;)

Wow that's sort of like how gender is for me.

Sometimes I think of it like sides of a die -- they are all existent all the time, even if only one is facing "up" at any given moment.

Wow. I really love this. What a great analogy! I would agree with this kind of assessment 100%.

For me it's something I only have partial control over, in that it's contextual. So I can choose my context to some degree, but not my gender. My family used to misunderstand this (when I identified as "gender fluid") and basically be like, "so if you're a girl sometimes, then why don't you feel comfortable wearing feminine clothes to [family function]?" as part of a very long campaign to get me to do so. They interpreted "gender fluid" in the way that they hoped would get the behavior they wanted out of me, conforming to cis-heteronormative ways of dressing. Except I was never a woman in that context and I never felt comfortable wearing those kinds of clothes in a family context. My gender isn't a "choice," like I can just choose to be the gender (and comfortable in the gender expression) that will make some family members happiest with me.

This definitely makes sense to me. I certainly didn't mean to imply I have control over it in the sense of it being a choice, because I don't. I think you've done a better job at articulating the idea than I did. One of the reasons it was so hard for me to arrive at the identity I have now is that there were many non-gendered factors in my life that influenced (mostly negatively) who and how I was. I know I've mentioned elsewhere here that the primary thing that's driven my "gender expression" to date was an absolutely crippling fear of being noticed, or seen as different. I did what I had to do to get by. I buried the feminine and let what I now understand as agender to run the day, even though that caused problems too :(. We were both still there, but I built up a kind of safety valve, to shut down the feminine from getting out. It's only been recently, in getting rid of that valve, have I seen how negatively it impacted my life.

That's what doesn't work for me with that term. It makes people think I always have some inner woman that they can tell me when and how to express, since it's all a "choice." If I cosplay femme and it works for me in that context, it's "why can't you wear that to a family function?"

Exactly. For me, since agendered has run the day for so long, it's hard to hear what she wants sometimes. And I still have the paralyzing fear of being seen as different or noticed. So for now, she doesn't get to express outwardly in any substantial way outside of the house. I'm learning a lot of little tricks though that make her/me feel good all throughout the day, even if she/me doesn't get to wear the clothes she wants. There are LOTS of other things! And I can do all that while working towards the full expression.

It's interesting you mention "almost like two people, but not quite" because I've also thought it it in those terms -- not actually multiplicity in that it's only on this axis, but yet there are distinct, co-existent gender-selves with their own very strong opinions on things, and their own respective histories of being respected/validated (and seen to the exclusion of everything else), or disrespected/invalidated. And like you say "I think this is from years of actively suppressing the hell out of my feminine half," I think this is from years of actively repressing the hell out of my male parts (and the reasons I did that).

LOVE this! ^_^ Even in the times when I was suppressing her/me, she was still there. She's the one who's spontaneous. She's the one who likes to laugh, and dance, and hug friends, and snuggle up in the back seat of my friend's car, and so many other things that make me, me! That's where I get the almost two people, but not quite. "Distinct, co-existent gender-selves"...god I love that!

But even my feminine side doesn't feel like a "woman." I happen to have this body, but that sense of gender hasn't changed since childhood. I'm read as a woman but I rarely feel like one. More like "I'm a girl and I have a grown up body!" than feeling like a "woman." I like looking pretty for cosplay, but for the rest of the year I feel dysphoria about it, because it doesn't match. I'm just plain not supposed to have breasts, it's all just wrong. :-(

"Girl and I have a grown up body!" is very close to how I'd describe myself, except replacing girl with boy (though I'm not sure I was ever even really comfortable as "boy"). I was just a kid (there's that agenderedness :P). I'm sorry you feel dysphoria so often. Hopefully you're able to find ways to mitigate or even eliminate that. I'm still exploring my feelings about my body and how I look. I know I hate it and always have, but I don't know why, so I'm not calling it dysphoria yet. So I can't offer any experienced-based advice there.

I'm glad my gender makes sense to someone, because it didn't make sense to anyone for a really long time!

There's this notion out there that we all have some fixed gender, and if it's not obvious, we are confused until we find it. But some of us don't have a single, and/or fixed gender.

It took me a long time to realize I was distontinuous. I would say however I felt at the moment, and all of that was true, but it confused people because I would be saying "I'm a man" or "I don't have a gender" or other things that to other people appeared contradictory. Different parts of me were the ones speaking. I however, don't feel internal shifts -- in my conscious experience, what I am now gender-wise is the same as what I have always been (because from each gender state's perspective, this is true). There is no part of me that says "I'm fluid." This was an external story I was telling to other people because that's how they saw me. Then I realized that this didn't work either, since they thought internally I was fluid.

To be clear, I'm not multiple. But knowing people who are helped me learn a lot about many things, including communication between parts. My gendered parts had their own conflicts with each other, which is a long story in its own right. Learning to build better communication, and a little more trust, between the parts helped. (In my case, this would not have been possible if I hadn't first started medications that stopped my cycling. All my gender problems started when I started cycling, and I wasn't able to work on the issues in any effective way (despite many efforts) until this biological issue was first addressed.)

[butterflydreams]

I'm sure I'm missing something major here, but, if I'm reading these posts correctly, genderfluid and bi-gender are about the outward appearance and mannerisms of the person? Or am I missing something.

I think they can be. For me, outward appearance and mannerisms come from within. On the outside? I really don't know how they look. I know how they feel on the inside, and that's what feels right.

I'm saying this because I didn't really think many people fit 100% neatly into one gender box from a behavior standpoint and don't see how saying "Today I feel more feminine or masculine" is literally being different people at the same time, as much as it is one person with non-gender-specific traits/interests/etc.

Agreed. I don't think many people fit 100% into some gendered box either. The difference I think is that for most people, close enough is close enough. Close enough that it never gives them pause. Close enough that they never think about it enough to wonder. I know I was nowhere near 100% on the masculine gender box. Not in the culture in which I was raised, and not among the friends I had and classmates. My entire life all I ever said was "I just don't understand! I don't fit here, I don't fit there...what the hell?" It was seriously frustrating. I had basically given up on it. I didn't know about things like agendered until poking around here. Suddenly it all snapped together.

This is hard to describe, so I'll do my best. It's not literally being two different people at the same time, or different times. For me, it's sometimes some feminine thing just feels right. All the way down, something in me is disgustingly satisfied by it. It's not a gender-nonspecific trait or interest. It's a deep, that is me, kind of thing. While agendered me is relatively neutral about those kinds of things, and identifies very strongly outside column A and column B. Pushing agendered me into identifying either of those ways would feel gross and not right. Just like pushing feminine me into agendered me's space or masculinity wouldn't feel right. I guess it's more of a matter of feelings, rather than actions. I think that makes it hard to convey.

And as Dash said above, they do kind of have their own unique histories, opinions, and almost personalities. I was always really conflicted when I would hang out with or talk to my best friend. She was really bubbly, spontaneous, sociable and caring. Very much like she/me, though I'm still much more reserved. In all the times we had get togethers, she/me was only "on" during one of those times. That was sad, because agendered me didn't jive as well with my friend. She even started calling me by a different name. It was that obvious to her that this wasn't the same person she'd hung out with before.

Anyway, hopefully I've done more to clarify than confuse! I'm happy to offer more insights if you'd like :)

[whitesphere]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand it exactly, Hadley167. I know it's not but your description REALLY made it seem like a variety of multiple personality disorder. Or is that what someone else called being "two souled"?

When I have feminine or masculine traits, they all still feel "me", just different facets of the same entity. When I relish a feminine thing (touch, cuddling, etc) it still feels to me the same entity who enjoys masculine things (i.e. logic, computers, etc). My beliefs are more scattered between genders but still belong to a single entity --- me.

Granted, my best friend can literally be of two minds on the same topic; I've heard her arguing with herself over things. Is that the same thing?

I'm always willing to learn something new, but things far out of scope of my experience cause me to scratch my head.

[butterflydreams]

I think I saw somewhere that bigendered was related somehow to multiple personality disorder. Perhaps only in the "here's something similar" kind of way. There's the Native American concept of "two spirit" which is particular to their cultures, heritage and history. I believe in concept, it's similar to bigender, but I think there's a lot of extra history and culture along with it, which someone like me does not share.

When you have masculine or feminine traits that feel like "you" I think that's getting at the difference. I suppose most people probably have a combination of masculine and feminine traits. For you, you're saying that those all still feel like you which makes sense. For me, it's not just such and such feminine traits, it's a whole feminine package. Sure, there are specific traits in there, but there are lots of other things too, like different aesthetic appreciation (sounds and colors), or different emotive states, and all that comes together to form the package. It's distinct, and unique, and forms a kind of personality style of its own. That personality style is independent from the other half as well. Honestly, I never even really noticed these shifts between the two sides of the coin until I started actively paying attention, it was just how I was, but they are there.

As I said earlier, in trying to shut the feminine down, I lost a lot. Basically spending some chunk of time (whatever time things are in that mode), as kind of empty, unfulfilled in any way, depressed. I think that what I get from being in "she mode" is important to my wellbeing on average. Eventually, after long enough, and compounded with other factors, lack of it pushed me into heavy depression. Getting out of that now has really showed me how important it is to run on all 4 cylinders, and not just 2.

[dash]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand it exactly, Hadley167. I know it's not but your description REALLY made it seem like a variety of multiple personality disorder. Or is that what someone else called being "two souled"?

When I have feminine or masculine traits, they all still feel "me", just different facets of the same entity. When I relish a feminine thing (touch, cuddling, etc) it still feels to me the same entity who enjoys masculine things (i.e. logic, computers, etc). My beliefs are more scattered between genders but still belong to a single entity --- me.

Granted, my best friend can literally be of two minds on the same topic; I've heard her arguing with herself over things. Is that the same thing?

I'm always willing to learn something new, but things far out of scope of my experience cause me to scratch my head.

Just a quick note, but multiplicity is not "multiple personality disorder." Being multiple is just something some people are -- they're systems, not singlets. This is the natural structure of their minds. This doesn't mean there is anything about being multiple that is causing them distress, which is necessary for something to be a disorder. And when there is distress, how much of it is because other people pathologize them and mistreat them, etc. etc. (As we all should know from the pathologizing of asexuality.)

This is a bit off topic because we're not talking about multiplicity per se, but please remember that these things are also spectra. It's not just "singlet" and "multiple," there is a lot in between.

[Rising Sun]

From my own perspective, the different genders are always there, but one tends to dominate the other(s) during a period of time. It's not the same as feeling like a different person. On the contrary, it feels natural, as strange as it may sound. For me, interests don't change, as they represent more stereotypes than real genders. But I can't say if others feel the same, as my own changes are induced by hormones.

[dash]

For me, this really doesn't have much to do with masculine of feminine interests or traits. It's not like there's a part of me that likes math and a part of me that doesn't. It's that sometimes when I do certain things, I am a man doing it, and sometimes when I do other things, I don't have a gender, and when I'm doing other things, I'm a girl/woman/something on that end of the spectrum doing it.

I do at the same time also have gendered sub-parts that have very strong feelings about things, and so everything "I" do comes from what the whole has decided it is comfortable with. Sometimes this has been the result of a dominant part (dominant because this was the only part that society recognized) that would impose its will (and society's will) on the rest (this led to lots of problems down the road). Now it's about more thoughtful internal communication about what's being felt and why, and making the best decision for all parts involved. So it's a bit like multiplicity, but only on the axis of gender. (And there are rarely conflicts except in matters of dress or other very gendered presentation things.)

With which I've confused everyone, both the singlets and the multiples reading this thread.

It's OK if you don't understand, or you can't relate. This is really unusual and I don't expect anyone to "get it."

[whitesphere]

@Hadley167 I understand how shutting down part of yourself can cause a depression. I've never had clinical depression but when I dishonored my masculine or feminine aspects, I had various mental issues --- either I tended to swing my emotions wildly or I lived completely in my head.

@Rising Sun What you're describing seems more like how I experience my different aspects, but I'm sure it's different since I don't think I have any hormonal issues that would trigger switches.

Of course there is the biorhythm theory of personality which might apply.

@dash I've never heard of that with respect to different degrees of, well, identity flux I guess is a good phrase for it. But I apologize if I caused inadvertent offense.

As the resident telepath, how about getting stock info from the New York Stock Exchange so we can all buy an island for asexuals or something ;-)

[dash]

I think I saw somewhere that bigendered was related somehow to multiple personality disorder. Perhaps only in the "here's something similar" kind of way. There's the Native American concept of "two spirit" which is particular to their cultures, heritage and history. I believe in concept, it's similar to bigender, but I think there's a lot of extra history and culture along with it, which someone like me does not share.

When you have masculine or feminine traits that feel like "you" I think that's getting at the difference. I suppose most people probably have a combination of masculine and feminine traits. For you, you're saying that those all still feel like you which makes sense. For me, it's not just such and such feminine traits, it's a whole feminine package. Sure, there are specific traits in there, but there are lots of other things too, like different aesthetic appreciation (sounds and colors), or different emotive states, and all that comes together to form the package. It's distinct, and unique, and forms a kind of personality style of its own. That personality style is independent from the other half as well. Honestly, I never even really noticed these shifts between the two sides of the coin until I started actively paying attention, it was just how I was, but they are there.

As I said earlier, in trying to shut the feminine down, I lost a lot. Basically spending some chunk of time (whatever time things are in that mode), as kind of empty, unfulfilled in any way, depressed. I think that what I get from being in "she mode" is important to my wellbeing on average. Eventually, after long enough, and compounded with other factors, lack of it pushed me into heavy depression. Getting out of that now has really showed me how important it is to run on all 4 cylinders, and not just 2.

The problem with associating this (and healthy multiplicity) with a disorder (like it's problematic to put HSDD together with asexuality the orientation) is that the healthy state for that individual is the latter, not the social "norm."

For Hadley167 (and for me), the healthiest state is the one of recognizing all the parts as our true nature, to stop fighting this and trying to kill off or hide any of the parts, and to embrace everything we are, even if it places us outside to social "norm." That we don't fit the norm isn't the problem. Likewise, with asexuality, not experiencing sexual attraction is not per se a problem -- it's only a problem if that is a broken state for THAT PERSON, and it is causing that person distress.

In fact, trying to force oneself into the social norm (including out of a belief that this is what one has to do to "be healthy") can be the cause of actual mental health issues.

[dash]

As the resident telepath, how about getting stock info from the New York Stock Exchange so we can all buy an island for asexuals or something ;-)

Uh, what? Are you confusing precognition with telepathy?

For the record, neither real life telepathy nor precognition work this way. I don't "owe" you or the asexual community anything, just because I happen to have the senses I do. You didn't cause me any offense with anything you said about gender, but these "jokes" about my senses are not welcome.

[Tóka]

bigender = being male and female at once, hermaphrodite.

genderfluid = shifting between genders...? i think? i am not convinced by this one.

they are definitely not the same.

[Rising Sun]

"Hermaphrodite" refers to an extremely small number of intersex people. I don't think it's appropriate to use for genders.

[Star Inkbright]

bigender = being male and female at once

No.

This is hard to describe, so I'll do my best. It's not literally being two different people at the same time, or different times. For me, it's sometimes some feminine thing just feels right. All the way down, something in me is disgustingly satisfied by it. It's not a gender-nonspecific trait or interest. It's a deep, that is me, kind of thing. While agendered me is relatively neutral about those kinds of things, and identifies very strongly outside column A and column B. Pushing agendered me into identifying either of those ways would feel gross and not right. Just like pushing feminine me into agendered me's space or masculinity wouldn't feel right. I guess it's more of a matter of feelings, rather than actions. I think that makes it hard to convey.

And as Dash said above, they do kind of have their own unique histories, opinions, and almost personalities. I was always really conflicted when I would hang out with or talk to my best friend. She was really bubbly, spontaneous, sociable and caring. Very much like she/me, though I'm still much more reserved. In all the times we had get togethers, she/me was only "on" during one of those times. That was sad, because agendered me didn't jive as well with my friend. She even started calling me by a different name. It was that obvious to her that this wasn't the same person she'd hung out with before.

Anyway, hopefully I've done more to clarify than confuse! I'm happy to offer more insights if you'd like :)

Isn't being male and female at once being an androgyne? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also -

bigender = hermaphrodite.

"Hermaphrodite" refers to an extremely small number of intersex people. I don't think it's appropriate to use for genders.

[butterflydreams]

Isn't being male and female at once being an androgyne? Correct me if I'm wrong.

It is. My understanding of the difference between androgyne and bigender is that with the former, male and female are existing simultaneously, whereas with the latter, they exist independently and each at their own times, but only one gender at a time.

Also -

bigender = hermaphrodite.

"Hermaphrodite" refers to an extremely small number of intersex people. I don't think it's appropriate to use for genders.

Yes, bigender != "hermaphrodite" at all. Generally speaking, the term hermaphrodite isn't used to refer to humans (even those who may be intersex) because it's considered offensive.

[Tóka]

intersex people have nothing to do with hermaphrodites. hermaphroditism does not occur in humans naturally but bigender people desire to have that kind of body

"androgyne" isn't a gender, it's a gender expression.

[butterflydreams]

intersex people have nothing to do with hermaphrodites. hermaphroditism does not occur in humans naturally but bigender people desire to have that kind of body

Actually, no, I don't desire a hermaphroditic body. Some bigender people might (I've never head that before), but all that I've known, myself included, do not.

[Heart]

"androgyne" isn't a gender, it's a gender expression.

I've heard people use "andrognous" as an adjective to describe a gender expression, and "andrgyne" as a noun to refer to gender. I think the androgynous term can refer to both, depending on context, though it's important to remember that someone who identifies as angrogyne may not present as androgynous, and vice versa.

[Star Inkbright]

Isn't being male and female at once being an androgyne? Correct me if I'm wrong.

It is. My understanding of the difference between androgyne and bigender is that with the former, male and female are existing simultaneously, whereas with the latter, they exist independently and each at their own times, but only one gender at a time.

That's what I thought. :) Thank you - it's good to have confirmation on these things. :)

"androgyne" isn't a gender, it's a gender expression.

I'm not sure if it's officially a gender, but I've heard people on here describe their gender using the word 'androgyne' before.