Romantic love is a delusion

[passionatefriend61]

I think romantic attraction is real for many people. I don't think it's a disorder, but I do think that it's almost always irrational and therefore especially prone to dysfunctional expression.

Romantic attraction is not love, and it can and does often exist without love. That's the most dangerous thing in my mind: that most people think romantic attraction/romance is love and always coexists with love. You can be infatuated, obsessed, powerfully attracted to someone and not actually love them. That just makes the English-speaking trend to use the word "love" as exclusively meaning romantic love all the more offensive, annoying, and ridiculous.

[binary suns]

people always talk about love being feeling about someone so much that you'd sacrifice yourself for them,

and I'm like but I've done that almost on whim for people I barely know. are you telling me I'm romantic for them?

any time someone describes love it just sounds like obsession.

If I go by what other people say is love, then I love lots and everyone,

but I know me, I will intensely be addicted to whatever's in front of me if I'm not careful. anytime I've felt what people claim "is love" I've always had all sorts of red flags popping up in my mind as I frantically try to calm my emotional response and not do something stupid,

and if someone would try to say that love is also trusting someone to be ok with letting go to your impulses,

I'd say so love is the same thing as trust? couldn't you say the same thing as stupidity? it all just sounds like excuses to release impulses and pressure and then saying after the fact that we did it for this "love" phenomenon.

I've heard people argue that love is inexplicable, that there seems to be no reason for why you love a person.

and I just think back to the OP's thoughts, about how that is just a self-fulfilling prophesy, a recipe for disaster. it's snipe hunting. love is nothing but a prank we've been playing on our young since the dawn of time. we remember the punchline, but lost the joke years ago.

a prisoner was sent to higher security. She could hear the other prisoners in the new cell block, but they rarely got out and walked about. most just moaned or barbled nonsense from the darkness.

but occasionally someone would call out a number and everyone would laugh:

"23"

laughter.

"27"

resounding chuckle,

"how 'bout #6"

oh the uproar!

after a few days of observing this phenomenon, the prisoner thought to herself she'd try it out.

not wanting to be too bold, she called out, "23!"

and there was utter silence.

then a voice from the dark,

"well... I guess some can tell it and some can't...."

[AWF]

I've heard that too; the thing about self-sacrifice. I think that feeling can be accentuated by love, but is not its measure. Apparently, humans are this way naturally, and selfishness is the afterthought. People who risk their lives to save utter strangers aren't necessarily crazy, it means they have good human reflex.

I continue to prefer my personal definition, of course, although it is not the only one here that I've read and liked. Although I agree that it is not obsession.

That being said: how can we all be so sure that love is pure and without flaw? It seems that we constantly try to either exonerate love of sin or claim it doesn't exist. All this fence sitting and tongue silver, and yet so little devil advocation! Humans often consider themselves imperfect within the confines of their own expectations. Could not love, one of their most cherished concepts, be the same? Perhaps we are unreasonable to expect differently.

You have read all of the discord the mere topic itself has managed to sew in this thread! "Love" causes people to experience so many different emotions, its nature could only be chaotic. I'm not trying to villainize it, merely expressing that it should be appreciated for what it is. It can't be the epitome of virtue; it's a grab-bag, a person turned inside-outward. That's why we fail to define it, it's too amorphous. But I assure you that you need all of it.

[turtleswithhats]

Well thats the thing with constructs (and the whole world really) is that its all based on an individuals perception and no ones ideas of constructs like love really match up, even if that is frustrating as heck sometimes. And then when we try to take everyones ideas of something like "love" and smash it together it makes no logical sense and has no real consistancies. You are right- love isnt really real, unless someone makes it real on an individual level, but then again everything emotional works that way doesnt it? I like your metaphor by the way its very creative.

[Guest]

I had a friend tell me that he was "in love" with some girl. I used to believe falling in love actually happened and I hoped it would happen to me. However as I've grown older I now believe that this is a phenomenon where people WANT to fall in love because they think it's so great, and so they latch onto whatever smidgen of attraction they experience and convince themselves that that's what's happening. After all, when people say they're in love, how do they know that?

So my question is this: What evidence can you provide to give credence of the existence of this phenomenon of becoming obsessed with a person (besides someone deluding themselves into thinking it's happening) and if you believe it happens, do you think it should be classified as a mental disorder?

''when people say they're in love, how do they know that?''

My partner is my best friend, first and foremost, however it goes deeper than anything I 'feel' for 'regular friends' (I am someone who really doesn't feel much emotion towards other people. I am always kind, however I just don't have the same 'feeling capacity' as most people do)

I feel a 'biological need' inside me, to care for my partner when he is sick, to cook for him when he is hungry, and to comfort him when he is stressed or upset. Believe me, I have never felt this for another adult.

He is the person I want to be intimate with, to share my body with. I hate hugging, kissing, hand holding, all that sort of thing, in general, I am not someone who enjoys the touch of other humans at all really.. but with him.. I could happily hug and kiss him all day long and only ever want more.

He is the person I want in my life, forever. I want to have coffee with him in the morning, and snuggle with him in the evening while we watch TV and drink beer or tea. I can categorically say I have never wanted this with another person, and before meeting him, wouldn't have thought it was something I would ever want (this is despite having one previous relationship, a local one, that lasted 5 years and ended in 2011)

The 'love' and 'intimate desire' I feel for him are completely monogamous: Him and him alone. The thought of snuggling someone else, even someone as rich and aesthetically attractive as say, Christian Bale, does nothing for me. In my mind, Christian just does not compare to my partner hehe. I want my sweetie, and my sweetie alone, forever.

None of this is 'euphoric' or 'lusty' or 'crazy' ... to me, this feeling is very practical. it sort of 'makes sense' inside me. When I think about him, or talk to him, or look at pictures of him.. I feel a kind of sweet ache inside my heart.. it's a very real emotion. It's not something I imagine at all. It's there, it's strong, and I can do nothing about it! If I tried to stop it, I couldn't. It's just.. there. Like when you are afraid, you can feel the emotion of fear inside you, and your body reacts to the emotions. That's exactly how love is, it's an actual feeling, and your body reacts to the feelings in all sorts of.. interesting ways!

I never intended the 'love' for him to happen.. I never expected 'love' would happen for me, and was happy to remain alone forever. I have always enjoyed my own company and was perfectly content to keep it that way.. but, we met in AVEN chat, became friends.. and, it just grew from there: it wasn't something I had control over, I didn't decide ''I want to fall in love with this person''.. it just.. happened.

We live on different hemispheres, over 11,000 miles apart. We have never met in person, though we plan to eventually. None of these factors diminish the love I have for my partner, or make our snuggles any less amazing even though they are only conducted in cyber space. Cyber snuggles rock! ..Our emotional/mental connection is strong enough that the distance just not matter for now.

Anyway, that's how I know that I am in love.

''What evidence can you provide to give credence of the existence of this phenomenon of becoming obsessed with a person (besides someone deluding themselves into thinking it's happening) and if you believe it happens, do you think it should be classified as a mental disorder?''

In the past I was diagnosed with manic depression and borderline personality disorder, as well as post traumatic stress disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. These are mental disorders. They are destructive, painful, awful things that I wish I could get rid of. I would do anything to be able to swish a magic wand and have them gone. I manage them much better now than I used to, but they are things that do still affect my daily life negatively on a regular basis. I have learned to cope, but, it would be nice to not need to 'cope' and to just be able to go about my day like a normal person (whatever that is, haha)

Being'in love' however, is really pretty awesome - in soooo many ways. I am now happier, more confident, I feel more content in myself, and better about the way I look (I was obsessing about needing plastic surgery before I met my honey) ..I am just all around a happier, better, kinder person who is now excited about the future and all the possibilities it holds. I wouldn't get rid of this for anything, though I am perfectly aware that it may run it's course and fade eventually... if that happens, so be it.. for now, I am just enjoying what my partner and I have ^_^ ...I certainly would not classify this as a mental disorder, in any way.

So, that's just my personal experience, but I hope it helps answer your questions ^_^

[zachmartinez]

people always talk about love being feeling about someone so much that you'd sacrifice yourself for them,

and I'm like but I've done that almost on whim for people I barely know. are you telling me I'm romantic for them?

any time someone describes love it just sounds like obsession.

If I go by what other people say is love, then I love lots and everyone,

but I know me, I will intensely be addicted to whatever's in front of me if I'm not careful. anytime I've felt what people claim "is love" I've always had all sorts of red flags popping up in my mind as I frantically try to calm my emotional response and not do something stupid,

and if someone would try to say that love is also trusting someone to be ok with letting go to your impulses,

I'd say so love is the same thing as trust? couldn't you say the same thing as stupidity? it all just sounds like excuses to release impulses and pressure and then saying after the fact that we did it for this "love" phenomenon.

I've heard people argue that love is inexplicable, that there seems to be no reason for why you love a person.

and I just think back to the OP's thoughts, about how that is just a self-fulfilling prophesy, a recipe for disaster. it's snipe hunting. love is nothing but a prank we've been playing on our young since the dawn of time. we remember the punchline, but lost the joke years ago.

a prisoner was sent to higher security. She could hear the other prisoners in the new cell block, but they rarely got out and walked about. most just moaned or barbled nonsense from the darkness.

but occasionally someone would call out a number and everyone would laugh:

"23"

laughter.

"27"

resounding chuckle,

"how 'bout #6"

oh the uproar!

after a few days of observing this phenomenon, the prisoner thought to herself she'd try it out.

not wanting to be too bold, she called out, "23!"

and there was utter silence.

then a voice from the dark,

"well... I guess some can tell it and some can't...."

lol Your mind works exactly like mine does. I shouldn't have said romantic love's a delusion. I should have said it's just flat out ill-defined. And that's a big problem because if you make a claim about X and someone asks what X is and you can't give even a vague description of what it is, you literally don't know what you're talking about.

But my friend did make those statements and I was wondering if he was just deluding himself or there was something else going on in his head.

[WhenSummersGone]

Romantic love is being "in love" rather than just loving a close friend. It's a whole other feeling like sexual feelings.

[Enki]

Personally, love, whether it be "real" or not, is something which is a fundamental, inalienable part of who I am. It is a source of strength, a guiding light, and a counselor of reason. Though, on it's own, it may not always be thought of as the most sensible human aspect, it's something which breathes sense into life and makes it worth living.

There is a saying, it isn't the destination but the journey...

[Sally]

I think it's a little much to call something that you don't feel a "delusion" when someone else feels it. You don't feel it; they do; leave it at that.

[Cereal Tendencies]

Loved the bird analogy, as an aromantic I've thought about it the same way.

For me, I decided to change the definition of aromantic from "someone who doesn't experience romantic attraction-aka love" to "someone who doesn't experience limerence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

That word is the closest thing I have that explains why people are always spacey around their crushes etc and why they act like they have some sort of mental condition

That still makes me sound bitter and I need to work on it

[zachmartinez]

Loved the bird analogy, as an aromantic I've thought about it the same way.

For me, I decided to change the definition of aromantic from "someone who doesn't experience romantic attraction-aka love" to "someone who doesn't experience limerence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

That word is the closest thing I have that explains why people are always spacey around their crushes etc and why they act like they have some sort of mental condition

That still makes me sound bitter and I need to work on it

Yeah the bird analogy demonstrates that the "romantic" as opposed to "non-romantic" love idea is too illy defined. Either way someone who starts behaving strangely should be worried for and they shouldn't get away with some "I'm in love" excuse.

[virtua]

Loved the bird analogy, as an aromantic I've thought about it the same way.

For me, I decided to change the definition of aromantic from "someone who doesn't experience romantic attraction-aka love" to "someone who doesn't experience limerence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

That word is the closest thing I have that explains why people are always spacey around their crushes etc and why they act like they have some sort of mental condition

That still makes me sound bitter and I need to work on it

I wouldn't say romantic attraction is the same as love - otherwise that would make the majority of people who say "I love you" romantically attracted to their family members, kids, friends they're not romantically attracted to, animals, objects, etc. - though it can be experienced in conjuction with it. From my experience, romantic attraction is not necessarily limerence. Though they appear to often co-exist, they do not always co-exist and they do not have to.

[zachmartinez]

I wouldn't say romantic attraction is the same as love - otherwise that would make the majority of people who say "I love you" romantically attracted to their family members, kids, friends they're not romantically attracted to, animals, objects, etc. - though it can be experienced in conjuction with it. From my experience, romantic attraction is not necessarily limerence. Though they appear to often co-exist, they do not always co-exist and they do not have to.

Well yeah, I mean what would be the difference?

[Sally]

Look up the definition of the term "limerence" and you'll see the difference.

[virtua]

I wouldn't say romantic attraction is the same as love - otherwise that would make the majority of people who say "I love you" romantically attracted to their family members, kids, friends they're not romantically attracted to, animals, objects, etc. - though it can be experienced in conjuction with it. From my experience, romantic attraction is not necessarily limerence. Though they appear to often co-exist, they do not always co-exist and they do not have to.

Well yeah, I mean what would be the difference?

The difference is very subjective. From what I have heard many people say, there is a distinct emotional headspace - a qualitative difference between romantic and nonromantic feelings. How people describe those feelings vary.

For me, the only difference between romantic and nonromantic feelings is being more acutely aware of the presence of whoever I'm romantically attracted to (whenever they're near me or even when we're at opposite ends of the same room). An extreme nervousness would then follow. Another AVEN member, sound_the_bugle, describes it really well in parts of this post, where they call it a "virtual telepathy." With that awareness feeling, there's also an acute awareness of physical touch - if whomever I was romantically attracted to was about to touch me, I would "feel" it before it happened. I would also be extremely aware of it happening and too self-conscious to think of the social cues of what to do the way I usually do whenever someone touches me.

That's really the only difference for me. It's not really that significant or important. Obviously, for others the feelings are different and the difference between their romantic feelings and nonromantic feelings can be very important and significant.

[Squirrel Combat]

Well if people don't fall in love, then what the heck have I been falling into?

[TheKindredSoul]

OP, you seem to be assuming that romantic love doesn't exist from the "evidence" of the fact that you've never experienced romantic love. That's shaky evidence indeed.

I experienced romantic love, so I'll stack my experience against your non-experience of it. And believe me, it wasn't something I was trying to have happen, as I was married at the time and the person I fell in love with was not my husband.

Your demand that people produce evidence of the existence of an emotion which can only be determined by the person feeling it is not reasonable.

Romantic love is subjective, and I do agree, one cannot speak of a romantic's existence if they have not felt it themselves (I sometimes do this, then realize it...oops). However, I do not believe it is something that can be proven either, since, as I said before (and you basically said it), romantic love is subjective. Therefore, the OP is not wrong, and you are not wrong either. However, the OP is wrong to demand evidence (I do not like using the word "wrong", but I have no other word to use) of romantic love when it cannot be proven. To the OP, romantic love does not exist (is that right, OP?), so therefore, it does not exist to him/her personally. Emotions are a very subjective, and personal, experience. My advanced psychology course is teaching me a lot about this. I am so glad I took the class.

No matter what another person labels another, the individual makes the ultimate choice. With that aside, I do believe romantic love can be delusional and idealized sometimes according to what I have seen (though I would call that infatuation, not love), but there is such thing as truly loving someone romantically. Initially, people look through rose-tinted glasses when they first "fall in love" (or infatuation, maybe lust), but this perception eventually drops as the relationship progresses to true love. Now, I probably should not be putting in my own input because I never fell in love before, but these are just my observations and what I know (or claim to know).

[Slayerin96]

I think I do agree with the one who started this topic. I mean, how on earth can it be that all of a sudden you cannot longer live without a specific person anymore?! Saying you love someone when you haven't even got to know them? Regarding them as perfect (whereas perfection does NOT exist), feeling devastated when they're not with you, feeling nervous and having your heart start racing when they're around you, being willing die, kill, or whatever, for them, imagining that you have some kind of claim on them, continuing to have affection for them even if they abuse you in the most aboninable ways imaginable, and the list is long. From my point of you, all these don't seem quite sane to me. It's not real, in such situation you don't think straight anymore. I think that humans would be better off if this kind of love did not exist anymore. That'd be the end to many wrongs that are taking place in this world. Life would be significantly easier if people used their reason more.

[Fire & Rain]

It’s not a delusion. I’m romance repulsed but I was raised in a very romance positive environment. I've seen romantic love at its strongest and its lowest too but it does exist in all forms. Some are healthy and others aren't. What you were describing sounds more like limerence and "romance" (media and culture influenced ideal) to me but not romantic love itself.

[Sally]

Slayer, someone experiencing romantic love doesn't always (and probably hardly ever) experience all the things you listed. I never regarded my romantic love partner as perfect, and I certainly wasn't willing to kill anyone for him. I didn't have a claim on him, nor was I abused in the most abominable ways.

[girltwink666]

last year i read The Stranger by Camus again and somewhere in that Meursault says something like bluh blugh love doesnt mean anything and i wrote in this lil diary thing after i read it

"Meursault, say what you want about love not having any meaning but things dont have to have meaning to have value" thats my sappy opinion bye

[Rising Sun]

I think I do agree with the one who started this topic. I mean, how on earth can it be that all of a sudden you cannot longer live without a specific person anymore?! Saying you love someone when you haven't even got to know them? Regarding them as perfect (whereas perfection does NOT exist), feeling devastated when they're not with you, feeling nervous and having your heart start racing when they're around you, being willing die, kill, or whatever, for them, imagining that you have some kind of claim on them, continuing to have affection for them even if they abuse you in the most aboninable ways imaginable, and the list is long. From my point of you, all these don't seem quite sane to me. It's not real, in such situation you don't think straight anymore. I think that humans would be better off if this kind of love did not exist anymore. That'd be the end to many wrongs that are taking place in this world. Life would be significantly easier if people used their reason more.

This is rather a description of teenage "love" than a description of romance by itself.

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/94500-love-styles/ (see the "Mania" part - first relationships are often this style)

[Guest]

I think I do agree with the one who started this topic. I mean, how on earth can it be that all of a sudden you cannot longer live without a specific person anymore?! Saying you love someone when you haven't even got to know them? Regarding them as perfect (whereas perfection does NOT exist), feeling devastated when they're not with you, feeling nervous and having your heart start racing when they're around you, being willing die, kill, or whatever, for them, imagining that you have some kind of claim on them, continuing to have affection for them even if they abuse you in the most aboninable ways imaginable, and the list is long. From my point of you, all these don't seem quite sane to me. It's not real, in such situation you don't think straight anymore. I think that humans would be better off if this kind of love did not exist anymore. That'd be the end to many wrongs that are taking place in this world. Life would be significantly easier if people used their reason more.

This is rather a description of teenage "love" than a description of romance by itself.

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/94500-love-styles/ (see the "Mania" part - first relationships are often this style)

I've always considered Mania the one among Lee's six styles that describes romance/"romantic love" spot on. There are some traces of romance in Eros, too, but Mania is the pure, distilled thing.

It's also explicitly equated with "romantic love" in the Wikipedia article, right up there in the overview. (To be fair, though, the article equates limerence with Eros instead of Mania further down. Which doesn't make to much sense to me, but there you have it.)

[FoxyMulder]

I personally have trouble understanding romantic love because I don't experience and I am unable to really tell the difference between platonic/romantic things, but I think it does exist. No, we can't prove it exists, but we also can't prove that sadness or happiness actually exists. Emotions are weird like that.

I've seen healthy relationships and terrible abusive relationships, but I think its unfair to call love a delusion or a mental illness.

[Rosemary555]

Whoa, interesting topic! Although I am romantic, I actually really like your smackledorf analogy, and I believe there is as much variation in the way people "fall in love" as there is in personalities in general. It's sort of like the question, what if everyone sees colors differently, because there's no way to really prove that we see them all the same? Since light creates color, people can only see color in the light, so technically, colors don't even exist in the dark. It's all about perception. I am also pretty jaded towards the stereotypical idea of being "in love" even though, like I said, I am (very) romantic. It's different for everyone.

I think that ultimately, falling in love is a manifestation of the deep seated need to feel connected with people, but that doesn't mean that everyone needs romance. Just like some people are extroverted and feel more at home with others, while some people are introverted and feel more at home when they're alone, some people are satisfied with friendships. That said, I agree that what your friend said about being "in love" is an unhealthy attitude, no matter how you slice it. Not everyone feels this way about love or relationships by any means. A healthy relationship is when two people don't depend on each other for their happiness, but they simply stay together because they bring out the best in each other. Companionship is a very human need, but just like any other inborn need, like eating or sex, it can be harmful in excess.

Also, I think that just like there's the Kinsey scale for sexual orientation, there is a similar "spectrum" for romantic feelings, so it's pretty complex. However, allow me to briefly describe how I felt about a woman I was in love with. I simply wanted to be one with her, a part of her, insider her. Everything about her was so familiar and profound to me, and I wanted to share a life with her, since her and her life felt just as real to me as my own. I was perfectly aware of her flaws, but to me they were simply in harmony with the rest of her.

Like I said, I don't claim that this is how it is for everyone, and I've certainly had crushes that were less intense than this. That's what brought me to the conclusion that it's a spectrum. Hope that answers your question!

[AshenPhoenix]

Let's remember that while discussion and free exchange of opinions and ideas on AVEN is encouraged, the incrimination or devaluing of other orientations are not allowed, lets keep away from phrases like "the world would be better off without romantic love" or "people who have romantic love are stupid/delusional/insane". I would rather allow all threads to prosper and exchange ideas where they are, but if we see this again it may end up locked or being moved to hot box

AshenPhoenix, Romantic and Aromantic orientations moderator

[DivinePrince]

I believe in love. It's there.

If you dont think so then whatever, more love for me.

[passionatefriend61]

I believe in love. It's there.

If you dont think so then whatever, more love for me.

Romantic love is not the only love that exists.

At least, that's true for some human beings.

This thread isn't about all love, it's about romance.

[Guest]

I believe in love. It's there.

If you dont think so then whatever, more love for me.

Romantic love is not the only love that exists.

At least, that's true for some human beings.

This thread isn't about all love, it's about romance.

It's kinda obvious that Prince was referring to romantic love..as this thread is about.. romantic love. Romantic love, not romance. (Romance is just the expression of romantic love.)

[Rising Sun]

I think that it is also necessary to make a difference between romantic attraction (the very physical and obsessive "love at first sight" feeling) and romantic love, the first creating the second. Romantic attraction can be immediate, but romantic love takes its time.