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Is there any need for or interest in a dedicated POC space at the con?


Omnes et Nihil

Poll about the idea of a dedicated POC-only space  

1 member has voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see a dedicated POC space at the conference?

    • I *am* a POC and I would like to see a dedicated POC-only space.
      13
    • I *am* a POC and I would like there *not* to be a dedicated POC-only space.
      10
    • I *am* a POC and I have no opinion.
      4
    • I *am not* a POC and I would like to see a dedicated POC-only space.
      25
    • I *am not* a POC and I like there *not* to be a dedicated POC-only space.
      16
    • I *am not* a POC and I have no opinion.
      9
    • Other.
      3


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Omnes et Nihil

Parlance, this is a discussion, not a class. And it's AVEN, not Tumblr's Social Justice Warrior section.

This is a discussion and not a class-- which means there should be no onus on any particular person to be a teacher, or to be responsible for educating others.

Exactly. If someone feels that onus, they are misinterpreting their place in the discussion.

Or it could be that people are acting like someone is supposed to do the explaining, for example, in this context, by asking for something to be explained to saying that something still isn't clear. (Why should it necessarily be clear? And why should someone be expected to explain if it's not?) That position presumes an "it's your job to explain this" position... otherwise, I don't see how it would it be relevant or meaningful to say that something still isn't clear/understood-- that's putting the onus *on someone else* to do the explaining.

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. It may not make sense to you, but as I and Omnes et Nihil have already pointed out, cons have already done this, so logistically, they've made it work.

Just because other conventions have made it work. doesn't mean it will work for this one. I would guess that other conventions have way more resources in terms of money and volunteers to make these kinds of things work as well as being much larger in scale. This is the second convention of this type ever so, in my opinion, it would be better to try and keep it simple or it might turn into an unorganized disaster. Learn to walk before you run.

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If someone says something that isn't clear, asking for clarification is not asking to be educated. And if someone states something as fact with the demand that others agree, disagreement is not asking to be educated.

But aside from that semantic argument...

As Pook says, resources are important. Unless the conference is being sponsored by a grant or foundation or rich individuals, planning small is probably best. I've been to conferences that have planned big without adequate resources and the main impetus can get lost in the messy logistics.

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Omnes et Nihil

. It may not make sense to you, but as I and Omnes et Nihil have already pointed out, cons have already done this, so logistically, they've made it work.

Just because other conventions have made it work. doesn't mean it will work for this one. I would guess that other conventions have way more resources in terms of money and volunteers to make these kinds of things work as well as being much larger in scale. This is the second convention of this type ever so, in my opinion, it would be better to try and keep it simple or it might turn into an unorganized disaster. Learn to walk before you run.

I think that was a comment about the reason for poc-only spaces existing at al... not whether *this particular conference* should have one.

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And it's AVEN, not Tumblr's Social Justice Warrior section.

Your comment is beyond rude. Yes, I get that we're in a forum for a marginalized group, and yet you approach an issue regarding a differently marginalize group with hostility. I've been more than patient, and this is hardly a war, but the fact you see my responsive that way gets to the heart of your willful ignorance.

parlance

I think that was a comment about the reason for poc-only spaces existing at al... not whether *this particular conference* should have one.

It was, thank you.

parlance

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Maybe I'm biased, growing up in (by some accounts) the most racially diverse city in the U.S. with very little racism, but I don't think they'll be harassed, and separating them does not seem to promote and end to racism.

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This entire thread has proven the point of why a POC space is pointless.

Imagine for a moment having a POC space, then women will want to talk about their problems being ace etc and women.

Then we'd need a Women space Except then WOC will obviously have their experiences with being a WOC and Asexual etc.

Then a WOC color space.

Then eventually it will get to the point, that instead of coming together, we've done the exact opposite.

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Captain Darkhorse

And it's AVEN, not Tumblr's Social Justice Warrior section.

Your comment is beyond rude. Yes, I get that we're in a forum for a marginalized group, and yet you approach an issue regarding a differently marginalize group with hostility. I've been more than patient, and this is hardly a war, but the fact you see my responsive that way gets to the heart of your willful ignorance.

parlance

Parlance, whether you like it or not, Sally is 100% correct: AVEN is not Tumblr. Different rule sets, different types of people. I don't want to go into specifics, but the arguing styles on both sites are also drastically different.

You've been offered many different reasons why other individuals disagree with your ideas. From what I can see, it has been civil enough - this isn't hotbox. It's been said before, but simply disagreeing does not equate to being willfully ignorant.

I see your side and hear your viewpoint, but I do disagree with it. Does that make me ignorant? Hardly. Does trying to convince everyone that your opinion is the only correct one take away credence from the legitimacy of your argument? Definitely.

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This entire thread has proven the point of why a POC space is pointless.

To me, it's proven how much it's needed.

parlance

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Parlance, whether you like it or not, Sally is 100% correct: AVEN is not Tumblr. Different rule sets, different types of people. I don't want to go into specifics, but the arguing styles on both sites are also drastically different.

I don't even know how the Tumblr reference is relevant. I'm quite aware I'm on AVEN. That doesn't change anything I have to say, or how I'll respond when someone can't be civil.

You've been offered many different reasons why other individuals disagree with your ideas. From what I can see, it has been civil enough - this isn't hotbox. It's been said before, but simply disagreeing does not equate to being willfully ignorant.

I see your side and hear your viewpoint, but I do disagree with it. Does that make me ignorant? Hardly. Does trying to convince everyone that your opinion is the only correct one take away credence from the legitimacy of your argument? Definitely.

Despite your use of definitive descriptors, it's not so cut and dry. The problem comes in privileging one's perspective as someone who is not a member of the group we're discussing (PoC) over that of an actual PoC. I have no problem with the PoC who've said they aren't interested in having a space. I have a problem with white people dismissing the idea as racism as then refusing to listen when PoC have explained why such spaces are necessary. If you don't have access to that experience, you're doing more than expressing an opinion, you're erasing someone else's experience out of, yes, ignorance. That is the case whether we're talking about race, gender, ability, religion, sexuality, etc.

parlance

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OK, here's a scenario.

I'm a Jew (which I am). I decide that Jews need a special space for just Jews at a conference, because whether it's expressed directly or not, Jews are always looked at as being "different".

i ask 5 other Jews. 2 Jews think that space should be provided; 3 say it's not necessary/would be divisive.

I ask 5 non-Jews. 2 non-Jews think that space should be provided; 3 says it's not necessary/would be divisive.

So I am supposed to feel "erased" as a Jew by those 3 non-Jews' opinions?

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This gets back to the first issue. Why would you ask the non-Jews in the first place?

And again, not a lateral example.

parlance

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How the flying fuck does letting non-PoC vote in this thread privilege non-PoC opinions of actual PoC?

Those of us are not trying to shut down safe spaces for PoC. We think they should be private groups that have no business in an event promoting human equality.

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parlance, on 22 Mar 2014 - 5:38 PM, said:

This gets back to the first issue. Why would you ask the non-Jews in the first place?

And again, not a lateral example.

parlance

I'd ask them because it's not a Jewish conference. Just as the original example is not a POC conference.

And how is the example not "lateral"?

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parlance, on 22 Mar 2014 - 5:38 PM, said:

This gets back to the first issue. Why would you ask the non-Jews in the first place?

And again, not a lateral example.

parlance

I'd ask them because it's not a Jewish conference. Just as the original example is not a POC conference.

And how is the example not "lateral"?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize only white people have been invited to this conference. My bad.

Ethnicity & religion = / = race.

parlance

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How the flying fuck does letting non-PoC vote in this thread privilege non-PoC opinions of actual PoC?

Very interesting that mods are silent when people respond with obvious hostility in this thread.

parlance

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How the flying fuck does letting non-PoC vote in this thread privilege non-PoC opinions of actual PoC?

Very interesting that mods are silent when people respond with obvious hostility in this thread.

parlance

Yep and calling everyone who disagrees with you ignorant is the exact opposite of hostile. Do you actually have an answer to my question? I'm assuming not.

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Yep and calling everyone who disagrees with you ignorant is the exact opposite of hostile. Do you actually have an answer to my question? I'm assuming not.

If you're coming out swinging and swearing, you're making it clear that nothing anyone will say will convince you there's a reason. At any rate, your question has already been answered. It's not my responsibility to help you read before you react.

parlance

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Yep and calling everyone who disagrees with you ignorant is the exact opposite of hostile. Do you actually have an answer to my question? I'm assuming not.

If you're coming out swinging and swearing, you're making it clear that nothing anyone will say will convince you there's a reason. At any rate, your question has already been answered. It's not my responsibility to help you read before you react.

parlance

Right... and saying everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant is definitely a sign that you'll be willing to be convinced that you're wrong. What hypocrisy. You complain about people not listening to the PoC insisting on a safe space, but you are completely unwilling to listen to the PoC who are strongly opposed to it.

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Considering this has derailed into nothing even remotely close to what the OP has asked, and has failed to get back on track a few times, I'm going to go ahead and lock this.

Lia

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