Is there any need for or interest in a dedicated POC space at the con?

[ThaHoward]

What in the world is all this about!?!?

In the OP it is claimed that in the world pride group it was only white people who were opposed, and strongly opposed according to the op, to a safe room for PoC's. While in fact the majority of those who were opposed to the safe room were PoC's. Also it was only one who was against the poll in the current form (as I recall) and that person (who was a PoC too) thought it would be better with a common poll.

The reason I'm saying this is because of how it look from the OP it looks like in World Pride groupit is only white people who doesn't care about PoC's at all or their issues. Something that is not true, especially thinking about the diversity in the group and who is neutral, opposed or pro a safe space. I'm just clearing up how things really went down instead of seeing it from some the point of view of someone who would really really like it- which may make them biased.

[tristifere]

I'm not going to vote on this poll, because I think that as a white person I have zip to say about whether or not POC need a safe space. And I do hope that however the information in this poll and in this discussion is used, that the votes of white people are not taken into consideration. I would be bitterly disappointed in the ace community if white people got to decide whether or not POC need a certain space / facility at an event.

I also hope - whether or not this specific POC space is created - that there will be room and time to discuss intersectionality. Like discussions on how to incorporate that in our visibility/education efforts, and how to address this in the available resources and support structures that are created for asexuals. Whether it's race/asexuality specifically, or intersectionality of asexuality with other identities in general (mental health/gender&trans/romantic orientation/etc.). Because we can never discuss this enough.

(also, I saw the suggestion of a separate intersectionality subforum on AVEN. If that ever is a thing to vote for, I will vote yes immediately! I want something like that so badly /off-off topic)

[ceramicplates]

i think this is a great idea! there definitely needs to be a space. apoc (like myself) have different experiences and thoughts from white asexuals; we have histories of extreme sexualization without consent, and this sexualization is always with racist intent. the fact is that white aces just wouldn't (and never will) understand much of the apoc experience. it saddens me that many of the responses here say that "segregation" wouldn't help anyone. isn't the purpose of the con for ace people to be with those whom they share similar experiences with? to understand more about each other? to find methods of coping with sexualization? different people have different experiences. as a poc, i have experienced different sexualization from a white ace. it just makes sense that i should be able to conference with other apoc, as i would benefit most from speaking with and relating to people that are more similar to me.

[ThaHoward]

Of course PoC's can talk to eachother during the event. Let it be at the conference or if anyone want to lunch with eachother.

But I would rather have a saferoom that is either a) open to every miniority or b) open to everyone who need a safe room. We don't have much space, and it is uncertain if we can have a safe space in the first place, and I think we should try to include as many as possible.

[Sennkestra]

Actually, since we have a lot of attention from people here talkimg about things, Id like to try to ask some more constructive questions (so that I can get a better sense of what people like for this or future events):

To get away from just "do we have this kind of space", I want to ask- at an ideal event, if we have spaces, what do you want them to look like?

1. What kinds of groups would you like to see space set aside for (in an ideal world)? We've been talking a lot about poc, but other ideas were also a quiet room, or a trans/gender-non conforming room. If you were to be at or run an ace event, what parts of your identity/experience would you want room set aside for?

2. What kind of physical space is needed to feel safe? For example, smaller events may have trouble making closed rooms available, but may be able to set aside meeting points in lobby corners or outside - would this be something people would use or would exposed spaces not feel safe enough?

3. How should time be managed in limited space? Would it be better to have more spaces that last for shorter times (to include more specific groups and more diverse experiences) or only a few spaces that last a long time? (So people have more chances to use them w/o missing other events?

4. Open or closed? Enforced or honor system? Would you want spaces that are open to anyone respectfully interested in a topic, or that are closed to anyone not a member of that group? If closed, do you want to have it be honor system (is ask say only that only aro people use an aro space, but not enforce) or enforced (I.e. asking white people to leave a pic space?

5. Structured or unstructured? Would you prefer casual spaced jsu for mingling or spacing out or whatever, semi-moderated events like caucus discussion spaces, or highly structures spaces like workshops?

6. Any other considerations you can think of?

[Sally]

The problem is that many people feel threatened by the idea of a PoC space and refuse to understand that it doesn't preclude the possiblity of a discussion of intersectionality.

I think it's entirely possible that instead of people feeling "threatened", they simply disagree with you. Being unwilling to see the difference between the two is not helpful to any discussion.

[parlance]

The problem is that many people feel threatened by the idea of a PoC space and refuse to understand that it doesn't preclude the possiblity of a discussion of intersectionality.

I think it's entirely possible that instead of people feeling "threatened", they simply disagree with you. Being unwilling to see the difference between the two is not helpful to any discussion.

Yes, that would be a euphemistic way to put it, and I chose my word carefully. The knee-jerk reactions by many suggest feeling threatened. Being unwilling to look inside oneself is unhelpful in fostering an honest disussion.

parlance

[Xavy]

POC with no opinion here.

[Sally]

parlance, on 20 Mar 2014 - 6:00 PM, said:

Sally, on 20 Mar 2014 - 4:40 PM, said:

parlance, on 19 Mar 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

The problem is that many people feel threatened by the idea of a PoC space and refuse to understand that it doesn't preclude the possiblity of a discussion of intersectionality.

I think it's entirely possible that instead of people feeling "threatened", they simply disagree with you. Being unwilling to see the difference between the two is not helpful to any discussion.

Yes, that would be a euphemistic way to put it, and I chose my word carefully. The knee-jerk reactions by many suggest feeling threatened. Being unwilling to look inside oneself is unhelpful in fostering an honest disussion.

parlance

I don't see any knee-jerk reactions here. Many people have obviously thought about this issue and replied with their thinking. And some of us have lived long enough to not feel threatened by anyone's opinion, so that dog doesn't hunt.

[parlance]

I don't see any knee-jerk reactions here. Many people have obviously thought about this issue and replied with their thinking. And some of us have lived long enough to not feel threatened by anyone's opinion, so that dog doesn't hunt.

Dismissing a PoC safe space as racism has nothing to do with how long you've lived. That comes from ignorance.

parlance

[Lord Happy Toast]

The numbers in the poll were very different before this started getting discussed a great deal on Tumblr. There's even one poster in this thread (supportive of the proposal) who only has one post at present--suggesting that they made an account just to vote in this. Prior to discussion on tumblr,

2 - "I *am* a POC and I would like to see a dedicated POC-only space. "

8 - I *am* a POC and I would like there *not* to be a dedicated POC-only space

Since discussion on tumblr, the numbers have changed from 2 - 8 to 11 - 10. Further, the proportion of people choosing "I *am* a POC" has jumped dramatically. Assuming that the people most interested in going to WP were already following this forum, this suggests to me that a large part of the support for this proposal is coming from people who aren't even going to be at the conference--they just think that the conference should have this. I suspect that the numbers after the first day are so are much more representative of those planning on attending this conference.

Both before and after the tumblr discussion, white people were quite a bit more likely to support this proposal. This suggests to me that the support for having a POC-only space is mostly a matter of people who aren't even going to be at the conference and white people wanting to show others how totally not racist they are.

[ThaHoward]

As far as I recall it was 7 whites who were for it and 12 whites who were against it before tumblr. Safe to say the number of pro PoC room have exploded after the tumblr blogs calling aven racist and now flatting out, while those against it have kept a steady growth - with +2 for both PoC and non-PoC, and +1 for PoC beutral and status quo for non PoC neutral.

Which is unfortunate as it will make it difficult to detirmine who is "straight out of tumblr" and who is actually going to qttnd to WP or active avenites. I guess we need to see how the poll develops further to get a clearer picutre of what the tendencies of the WP attendors are like.

[Sally]

I don't see any knee-jerk reactions here. Many people have obviously thought about this issue and replied with their thinking. And some of us have lived long enough to not feel threatened by anyone's opinion, so that dog doesn't hunt.

Dismissing a PoC safe space as racism has nothing to do with how long you've lived. That comes from ignorance.

parlance

Disagreeing with someone and stating why has nothing to do with ignorance.

[ThaHoward]

Maybe it is ignorance if one believe they possess the truth.

[Sally]

Maybe it is ignorance if one believe they possess the truth.

You may be right -- especially in the sense of "possessing" the truth and thus allowing no one else to express their doubts.

[virtua]

I don't see anyone here as suggesting that it's the job of non-white or "PoC" to educate white people on racism or intersectionality. What most people are saying is that they think it's better for equality to be achieved through integration and open dialogue with all individuals.

The problem is that many people feel threatened by the idea of a PoC space and refuse to understand that it doesn't preclude the possiblity of a discussion of intersectionality. It's not either or scenario, it can be both and. But it's not the same thing, but people keep conflating the two. They keep privileging the intersectionality discussion (which originally wasn't even on the table) as if discussing race matters only when white people are present. And, BTW, no one has to say explicitly that it's PoC's responsiblity to educate them; it happens at discussions where members of the dominant group don't bother to do their own research, and the marginalized group ends up doing the work of teaching the other in order to facilitate a production conversation. Meanwhile, PoC-centric conversations are dismissed as racist and segregationist and therefore useless. We've had one person go so far as to start a separate thread while dismissing this one as having turned into a discussion of racism (as if that weren't relevant to the topic at hand). There's been a lot of deflecting and derailing and talking over each other, but not a lot of listening.

I think most people in this conversation who are against having a "PoC-only space" realize this isn't an either or situation. The people who are against having this space are against this idea in principle. Thus, it wouldn't matter to them if we had a PoC-only space in addition to a workshop discussing the intersectionality of asexuailty and race because we would still be promoting segregation (i.e. the act of separating an individual or a group of individuals from a larger group, usually to treat the separate group differently from the larger group). In the end, we would only be valuing what "PoC" have to say solely because of their race.

Not every group has the luxury of having public resources and information published about them. For some marginalized groups, there is very little factual information about them in the public so if they didn't provide information for people who are ignorant about their issues, those people would be falsely informed and still ignorant. I would think that because everyone's experiences are different and because no marginalized group is monolithic, it's beneficial for individual members of the group to discuss their own experiences and be in control of some of the information those in the majority come across.

[parlance]

I don't see any knee-jerk reactions here. Many people have obviously thought about this issue and replied with their thinking. And some of us have lived long enough to not feel threatened by anyone's opinion, so that dog doesn't hunt.

Dismissing a PoC safe space as racism has nothing to do with how long you've lived. That comes from ignorance.

parlance

Disagreeing with someone and stating why has nothing to do with ignorance.

Not always, but in this case it does.

parlance

[parlance]

I think most people in this conversation who are against having a "PoC-only space" realize this isn't an either or situation. The people who are against having this space are against this idea in principle.

But the principle is that people feel equally safe in a public space. We're all entitled to that, no matter which group we belong to. You don't need access to public resources to understand that basic principle.

parlance

[Guest]

I think most people in this conversation who are against having a "PoC-only space" realize this isn't an either or situation. The people who are against having this space are against this idea in principle.

But the principle is that people feel equally safe in a public space. We're all entitled to that, no matter which group we belong to. You don't need access to public resources to understand that basic principle.

parlance

But...what will make PoC's feel unsafe and why is a room the best idea to deal with it? And why PoC and not other groups?

Those questions have not had answers that make sense to me so I have to vote against it

[parlance]

I think most people in this conversation who are against having a "PoC-only space" realize this isn't an either or situation. The people who are against having this space are against this idea in principle.

But the principle is that people feel equally safe in a public space. We're all entitled to that, no matter which group we belong to. You don't need access to public resources to understand that basic principle.

parlance

But...what will make PoC's feel unsafe and why is a room the best idea to deal with it? And why PoC and not other groups?

Those questions have not had answers that make sense to me so I have to vote against it

A few people have answered that first question throughout the thread. And the second, other groups *have* been suggested, including by the OP in his one of hir subsequent comments. It sounds like you should review the thread more closely.

parlance

[5_♦♣]

Is this 2014 or 1954? As reading this thread kinda makes me feel like I traveled back in time to the '50s, only with internet access.

[ThaHoward]

What about languages and cultures? I feel intimidated by lots of English speakers. And I will have troubles understanding others and that others understanding me. Also because of our cultural differences (we live in a anglophone supremacist world after all) I will have different understanding of sexualization and might feel marginalized.

And again as Tea mentioned, what with other marginalized groups? If we had a safe space, wouldn't kt be better to include as many as possible or to maybe exclude none at all?

[Guest]

I don't really think it's necessary (nor logistically possible) to have an official room for X group. But, if the campus we are going to be on is anything like my campus, then it shouldn't be hard to find space for people to congregate if they need to. I think it would be easier if, at the conference, people were like "Hey, we are going to get together to discuss the issues X group faces at Y place."

I would rather make these spaces unofficial and made as people at the conference feel they are needed than dealing with the logistical nightmare official rooms would bring.

[Omnes et Nihil]

I think most people in this conversation who are against having a "PoC-only space" realize this isn't an either or situation. The people who are against having this space are against this idea in principle.

But the principle is that people feel equally safe in a public space. We're all entitled to that, no matter which group we belong to. You don't need access to public resources to understand that basic principle.

parlance

But...what will make PoC's feel unsafe and why is a room the best idea to deal with it? And why PoC and not other groups?

Those questions have not had answers that make sense to me so I have to vote against it

Most of this thread hasn't been about those questions. As has been pointed out, it's largely been about how a poc-only room might affect white people and/or interfere with the education of white people (by poc) about intersectionality. (note: http://racismschool.tumblr.com/post/15823127398/why-asking-poc-to-explain-is-a-problem)

Well, that, and also person-to-person conflict, for example, about whether there's any ignorance here-- even though, as has already been pointed out, many of the posts in this thread clearly indicate no knowledge/acknowledgement that some poc do want and enjoy dedicated poc spaces in some contexts. (e.g.: https://www.michigandaily.com/opinion/01zeinab-khalil-safe-spaces01?page=0,0)

Is it important for people who aren't poc and/or racialised to understand what might make some poc feel unsafe at a conference planned by a community where the discussion about the possibility of a poc-only room focused so much on how it would affect white people... or is it enough to believe that it's a possibility? (And yes, this did come out of a conversation about other marginalised groups too.)

Now that this thread seems to be largely with people involved in planning the conference:

Clearly dedicated spaces (for any group) are a new idea for a lot of people here when it comes to trying to make spaces as safe as possible. I'm not arguing in favour of having a poc-only room, or for that matter against one. (Even on the skype group I wasn't doing that although it seems that some people thought I was--I was mostly trying to *explain* the idea to people who were new to it... and possibly not doing a good job of it.)

I realise I put this question out there in this thread in a very ineffective way and I'm sorry for that. But I'm not sorry that I brought up the topic for discussion-- I think it's important when planning a community gathering to ask who might be kept away or made uncomfortable... and what could help change that. (I ask these questions because I don't have the answers.) And I realise not everyone is concerned with them.

[Guest]

I have read the thread closely parlence, I would appreciate if you would re-read what I wrote.

If somebody feels like they are excluded then we won't know about it unless they tell us. We shouldn't just assume that people are going to feel excluded. Logistically it makes no sense and it can also lead to groups feeling tokenism. I know I would rather not see a room for Jews only where we can discuss stuff because I would find it being too much "gentiles are trying to be waaaaaaaay too nice. Just... stop... now"

[Sally]

I'm trying to imagine a conference where there are rooms for certain ethnic/religious/orientation groups. I really can't, because how would they be labeled? "Jews only here", POC only here", 'Trans only here"? What if you were a Jewish POC trans?

I've been to a number of conferences addressing homelessness. People who are actually homeless attend those conferences. I know a number of them in my local area. If there's any group that is still marginalized in current-day America, it's homeless people; they're accused of being lazy, shiftless, welfare-queen/king thieving drunks and drug addicts, and told they don't deserve any help. They do not want a room to themselves; they want to be in society, standing up to whoever holds an overt or covert attitude toward them. This is no time for separate rooms for anyone.

[parlance]

I have read the thread closely parlence, I would appreciate if you would re-read what I wrote.

If somebody feels like they are excluded then we won't know about it unless they tell us. We shouldn't just assume that people are going to feel excluded. Logistically it makes no sense and it can also lead to groups feeling tokenism. I know I would rather not see a room for Jews only where we can discuss stuff because I would find it being too much "gentiles are trying to be waaaaaaaay too nice. Just... stop... now"

I read what you wrote. I've been reading all the responses carefully. I'm sorry you're not hearing what you want to, but that's not the same as not receiving answers. It may not make sense to you, but as I and Omnes et Nihil have already pointed out, cons have already done this, so logistically, they've made it work. What you're doing is exactly what I warned about - which is expecting a PoC to educate you, but when we try, you reject what we have to say. Your experience as a Jew is not a lateral example.

I posed a link on the subject, and you should take a look. Beyond that, I and the other PoC who have spoken on this subject who have explained why we feel such a thing is necessary can keep repeating ourselves, but the fact is, either you'll have to do more research on your own about race, racism, public spaces, conventions, take your pick... or resign yourself to the fact you don't want to get it, and you won't, because you have that privilege.

parlance

[Sally]

Parlance, this is a discussion, not a class. And it's AVEN, not Tumblr's Social Justice Warrior section.

[Omnes et Nihil]

Parlance, this is a discussion, not a class. And it's AVEN, not Tumblr's Social Justice Warrior section.

This is a discussion and not a class-- which means there should be no onus on any particular person to be a teacher, or to be responsible for educating others.

[Sally]

Parlance, this is a discussion, not a class. And it's AVEN, not Tumblr's Social Justice Warrior section.

This is a discussion and not a class-- which means there should be no onus on any particular person to be a teacher, or to be responsible for educating others.

Exactly. If someone feels that onus, they are misinterpreting their place in the discussion.