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Is there any need for or interest in a dedicated POC space at the con?


Omnes et Nihil

Poll about the idea of a dedicated POC-only space  

1 member has voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see a dedicated POC space at the conference?

    • I *am* a POC and I would like to see a dedicated POC-only space.
      13
    • I *am* a POC and I would like there *not* to be a dedicated POC-only space.
      10
    • I *am* a POC and I have no opinion.
      4
    • I *am not* a POC and I would like to see a dedicated POC-only space.
      25
    • I *am not* a POC and I like there *not* to be a dedicated POC-only space.
      16
    • I *am not* a POC and I have no opinion.
      9
    • Other.
      3


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If we're going to talk about safe spaces I'd rather have one for those of us with a stigma mental/mood disorder.

Can we not have both?

parlance

It is planned to be a "quiet" room so those who feel marginalized, panics or anything that upset them can go to to relax and calm down.

A safe space for PoC and non-cis is what some want in addition to this. As in the quiet room both cis persons and white persons are welcome. While the advocates for the non-cis room and PoC room think some falling under these "labels" might need a safe space in case they are marginalized.

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People who aren't white can already do that. There will be many break times for people to talk amongst themselves. During those times, people naturally tend to seek out those and strike up conversations with those who they have interesting conversations with and can relate to on some personal level.

There's a difference between wasting time searching for quiet spaces between breaks and already having one provided.

parlance

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That kind of defeats the purpose ( which I'm guessing is to create a forum about intersectionality).

No, there are several posts here, including the OP's that explain that the purpose is not the same.

parlance

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It is planned to be a "quiet" room so those who feel marginalized, panics or anything that upset them can go to to relax and calm down.

A safe space for PoC and non-cis is what some want in addition to this. As in the quiet room both cis persons and white persons are welcome. While the advocates for the non-cis room and PoC room think some falling under these "labels" might need a safe space in case they are marginalized.

You misunderstood my response to TechnoEA. I wasn't debating the idea of a quiet space for POC at all.

parlance

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Just wanted to say that being a PoC is not a matter of self-identifying as a PoC. I would not cease being a PoC just because I didn't identify as one. I will always be a PoC because I am from non-European descent (at least how European descent is commonly thought of). By the same token, a white person is and will never be a PoC just because they self identify as one.

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I am a PoC, and I really do not think that having a space ONLY for PoCs is healthy. It would be an idea to maybe discuss the discrimination against people of color who are also asexual/a member of the LGBTQ community, but it should be open to everyone, not just PoCs. Separating people based on their ethnicity, whether with good intentions or not, is still separating people based on ethnicity.

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TechnoEA said:

That term is used in other to make others feel safer and better about themselves.

Actually, no, that's not related to the origin of the term at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

If we're going to talk about safe spaces I'd rather have one for those of us with a stigma mental/mood disorder.

Can we not have both?

parlance

I know it's not related to the origin, I was speaking of the meaning of the word minority in today's world.

I actually didn't mean to imply we couldn't have both, I'd just prefer to have the second one.

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Omnes et Nihil

There's still the need to clarify why this room is being discussed for a conference on asexuality in the first place. I mean, PoC will certainly not be the only minority attending the conference, and if the topic being discussed in the separate room would be unrelated to asexuality (e.g. racism, which is certainly another important topic, I'm obviously not denying that), then why is this being discussed for the Asexual Conference? That's still not clear from what the OP wrote.

There are obviously needs for safe spaces for PoC and other minorities to discuss their situations, but why is it being brought up for this conference, which isn't on social justice in general but specifically on asexuality,....

because ethnicity can and does play a part in how one experiences many things in life, including (a)sexuality. if you look through the POC thread in Asexual Musings, you will see that many asexual, gray-a and demi POC feel that their experiences with their (a)sexuality (and/or romantic orientation) doesn't always align with some of the discussion elsewhere on the forum or within the asexual/ace spectrum community at large.

intersectionality is very important not just for POC, which is why i think that it would be great if non-exclusive spaces were available for the discussion of such things. as i'm not the OP, though, i can't answer why this question has only been raised for POC.

I just posted an edit to my initial post explaining why/how this discussion came up. I hope that will clarify things somewhat. I clearly did not do a good job at starting this discussion and I'll be thinking about how I might be able to do a better job when something like this comes up in the future.

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Thanks for your clarification, Omnes.

So my question is: if someone is upset because a speaker/panelist is being racist/cissexist/sexist/non-inclusive in other ways, they need a room? What happened to "getting up and taking a coffee break outside of the conference room until I feel better"? I'm a woman and I handle, for example, sexism all the time. I'm an activist for asexual, trans*, intersex, gay and bi people, refugees and immigrants (and a few more issues), and I deal with lots of crap living in a bigoted country like Italy.

But I think a room to "deal with X-ism" is not only unnecessary, but it's going to look weird if not bad with any press being present. Imagine you're a journalist who's coming to the University to take a look at this unusual conference. You enter the building, and there's the main room, and close to it, three doors: "PoC", "Trans*" and "Women Only", for example. You're obviously unaware of this discussion. What would be your first impression? I know mine would be "WTH is going on here?" and I would immediately think of segregation and not "potentially upset people".

Keep in mind that a good number of people's prejudice of asexual people is "close-minded prudes", and not "people worried about social justice", so it's easy to reinforce the bad impression with a similar environment, I think.

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Just to clear up somethings in the new explenations (which is the truth with major modifications):

"and some powerful opposition from people who are *not* POC. (And also some powerful opposition from some White people about the idea that POC specifically should be making a decision about a dedicated POC room.)"

And that is why I said you should make a poll to see if it is wanted or not. And you forgot to say that one who are Jewish (historically, and in most of Europe, a marginalized group and who face racism) and from what I've seen 3 POC's are opposed to it in that World Pride group. So including the Jew, it is 2 whites who are opposed to the idea and 3 POC's. From what I've seen you (white) was the obly one who was for it, while 3 POC's, one Jew and one "oppressor" was against it. Do I need to remind you that I agreed upon that I would rather have the opinions of PoC's? Don't make up facts.

That was suggested by ThaHoward (below) and others planning the conference. And I have no idea how the group planning the conference will use this information.

I thought you wanted to gain the avenites opinion. And since this largely affects PoC, ot is they who should decide if they would like it or not. If the majority of PoC at WP want it, I see no problem in supporting it. However I would like it to be another solution as seggregating the group like this is imo sending out the wrong messages.
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People who aren't white can already do that. There will be many break times for people to talk amongst themselves. During those times, people naturally tend to seek out those and strike up conversations with those who they have interesting conversations with and can relate to on some personal level.

There's a difference between wasting time searching for quiet spaces between breaks and already having one provided.

parlance

During an asexuality unconference that was held last summer in Berkeley, California, there was a workshop open to all people discussing the intersectionality of asexuality and race. After that workshop some of the people who attended the workshop discussed among themselves the issues they faced for being a racial minority (where they lived) as well as asexual. Conversations after the sessions naturally cropped up between people who could relate to each other even though there was no scheduled time and place for those conversations to be had. I don't think any of them would see that unscheduled time in between the sessions as a "waste of time." For those who attended the Asexuality and Race workshop, it created a sense of connection because it connected white allies with non-white people and allowed everyone to share experiences and learn from each other.

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I just posted an edit to my initial post explaining why/how this discussion came up. I hope that will clarify things somewhat. I clearly did not do a good job at starting this discussion and I'll be thinking about how I might be able to do a better job when something like this comes up in the future.

Thanks for your clarification. For what it's worth, I thought that, other than the way the poll was constructed, you summarized your intent well. But this topic is always controversial and people will often react without reading carefully or doing their research, which is readily available via Google.

It's very sad you came up against strong opposition to the idea of PoC making the decision about the PoC space. The fact that anyone would question that grown adults should determine their own spaces is a grave indication of how badly such safe spaces are needed.

Thanks for your clarification, Omnes.

So my question is: if someone is upset because a speaker/panelist is being racist/cissexist/sexist/non-inclusive in other ways, they need a room? What happened to "getting up and taking a coffee break outside of the conference room until I feel better"? I'm a woman and I handle, for example, sexism all the time. I'm an activist for asexual, trans*, intersex, gay and bi people, refugees and immigrants (and a few more issues), and I deal with lots of crap living in a bigoted country like Italy.

But I think a room to "deal with X-ism" is not only unnecessary, but it's going to look weird if not bad with any press being present. Imagine you're a journalist who's coming to the University to take a look at this unusual conference. You enter the building, and there's the main room, and close to it, three doors: "PoC", "Trans*" and "Women Only", for example. You're obviously unaware of this discussion. What would be your first impression? I know mine would be "WTH is going on here?" and I would immediately think of segregation and not "potentially upset people".

How you deal with oppression and marginalization doesn't determine how anyone else should. Self-care is not a sign of weakness, as you seem to be implying. There's nothing "weird" or "unusual" about safe spaces, it's been done for years at conventions. And if a journalist becomes aware of such spaces, that's a learning moment. You really should educate yourself on the issue.

parlance

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I just posted an edit to my initial post explaining why/how this discussion came up. I hope that will clarify things somewhat. I clearly did not do a good job at starting this discussion and I'll be thinking about how I might be able to do a better job when something like this comes up in the future.

Thanks for your clarification. For what it's worth, I thought that, other than the way the poll was constructed, you summarized your intent well. But this topic is always controversial and people will often react without reading carefully or doing their research, which is readily available via Google.

It's very sad you came up against strong opposition to the idea of PoC making the decision about the PoC space. The fact that anyone would question that grown adults should determine their own spaces is a grave indication of how badly such safe spaces are needed.

parlance

The issue is that it is not true. From what I remember only one was against it who was POC. I was for it, and encouraged the idea of having a thread here and a poll as I think it should be detirmined by the people in question - avenites but primarly POC's on AVEN.

I even said I would support if PoC's turned out to want this. I can see how bad it look like right now, but most of the things being said is simply not true and should be taken with a grain of salt regarding the posters political views.

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Omnes et Nihil

Just to clear up somethings in the new explenations (which is the truth with major modifications):

"and some powerful opposition from people who are *not* POC. (And also some powerful opposition from some White people about the idea that POC specifically should be making a decision about a dedicated POC room.)"

And that is why I said you should make a poll to see if it is wanted or not. And you forgot to say that one who are Jewish (historically, and in most of Europe, a marginalized group and who face racism) and from what I've seen 3 POC's are opposed to it in that World Pride group. So including the Jew, it is 2 whites who are opposed to the idea and 3 POC's. From what I've seen you (white) was the obly one who was for it, while 3 POC's, one Jew and one "oppressor" was against it. Do I need to remind you that I agreed upon that I would rather have the opinions of PoC's? Don't make up facts.

That was suggested by ThaHoward (below) and others planning the conference. And I have no idea how the group planning the conference will use this information.

I thought you wanted to gain the avenites opinion. And since this largely affects PoC, ot is they who should decide if they would like it or not. If the majority of PoC at WP want it, I see no problem in supporting it. However I would like it to be another solution as seggregating the group like this is imo sending out the wrong messages.

1) I'm not making anything up.I am not saying anything that I don't believe happened.

2) You and I were not the only 2 people having the conversation-- I wasn't talking about *you* opposing the idea that POC should be making this decision.

3) I actually was not the only person speaking about a possible need for a dedicated POC room. And the other person did identify herself as a POC... apparently she just got erased from the conversation.

4) And how on earth did I get classified as "not Jewish" when I specifically addressed that in that conversation (though not here)? (And I didn't specifically call anyone and "oppressor")

I think that's all I'm going to say about that: This is *not* what I meant at all.

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How you deal with oppression and marginalization doesn't determine how anyone else should. Self-care is not a sign of weakness, as you seem to be implying. There's nothing "weird" or "unusual" about safe spaces, it's been done for years at conventions. And if a journalist becomes aware of such spaces, that's a learning moment. You really should educate yourself on the issue.

parlance

Looking it up on google gives me results of people trying to make their conferences a safer space (compared to their usual I guess) where homophobic/transphobic/etc hateful words (I don't need to spell them out, do I?) are not allowed (anymore, I can read). But I found nothing about having separate rooms like the OP suggests. Since you seem to know more than I do about this topic, could you kindly provide some links so I can read more about it, please?

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During an asexuality unconference that was held last summer in Berkeley, California, there was a workshop open to all people discussing the intersectionality of asexuality and race. After that workshop some of the people who attended the workshop discussed among themselves the issues they faced for being a racial minority (where they lived) as well as asexual. Conversations after the sessions naturally cropped up between people who could relate to each other even though there was no scheduled time and place for those conversations to be had. I don't think any of them would see that unscheduled time in between the sessions as a "waste of time." For those who attended the Asexuality and Race workshop, it created a sense of connection because it connected white allies with non-white people and allowed everyone to share experiences and learn from each other.

So you spoke to everyone in-depth, and you know for sure that was the impression they each came away with? I think that's a difficult thing to determine just by observation. Additionally, the conversations that take place between PoC and white people vs. PoC amongst themselves are often going to be qualitatively different. In the latter situation, PoC are less likely to have to spend time explaining themselves to others, allowing them to dig deeper in a shorter time.

Also, let's not limit the idea of a safe space to helping people cope with the opposition. It's a powerful, comforting and inspirational thing simply to be among people who share similar and recognizable experiences.

Overall, there seems to be a disconcerting sense of entitlement to the words and minds of PoC in many of the comments here - the idea that PoC exist to teach others. If PoC want to talk with white people about their experiences or intersectionality or racism, etc., having a safe space won't keep them from doing so. Neither will denying them a safe space force them to talk with you.

parlance

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Just to clear up somethings in the new explenations (which is the truth with major modifications):

"and some powerful opposition from people who are *not* POC. (And also some powerful opposition from some White people about the idea that POC specifically should be making a decision about a dedicated POC room.)"

And that is why I said you should make a poll to see if it is wanted or not. And you forgot to say that one who are Jewish (historically, and in most of Europe, a marginalized group and who face racism) and from what I've seen 3 POC's are opposed to it in that World Pride group. So including the Jew, it is 2 whites who are opposed to the idea and 3 POC's. From what I've seen you (white) was the obly one who was for it, while 3 POC's, one Jew and one "oppressor" was against it. Do I need to remind you that I agreed upon that I would rather have the opinions of PoC's? Don't make up facts.

That was suggested by ThaHoward (below) and others planning the conference. And I have no idea how the group planning the conference will use this information.

I thought you wanted to gain the avenites opinion. And since this largely affects PoC, ot is they who should decide if they would like it or not. If the majority of PoC at WP want it, I see no problem in supporting it. However I would like it to be another solution as seggregating the group like this is imo sending out the wrong messages.

1) I'm not making anything up.I am not saying anything that I don't believe happened.

2) You and I were not the only 2 people having the conversation-- I wasn't talking about *you* opposing the idea that POC should be making this decision.

3) I actually was not the only person speaking about a possible need for a dedicated POC room. And the other person did identify herself as a POC... apparently she just got erased from the conversation.

4) And how on earth did I get classified as "not Jewish" when I specifically addressed that in that conversation (though not here)? (And I didn't specifically call anyone and "oppressor")

I think that's all I'm going to say about that: This is *not* what I meant at all.

1: I got proof in the chat that prove you wrong.

2: Never said that, why I specifically mentioned others.

3: I can't remember who this is, but of course if she was PoC then it is noted. If it is Amy, then she is actually opposed to the idea - assuming it is exclusive to non-PoC's. I honestly can't remember anyone else being an active part of this conversation than the numbers I've listed.

4: That wasn't brought up to my attention.

Anyway, if no. 3 was a poc for the idea then it is 3 PoC's in the discussion against it, 1 jew, 2 whites (including the jew) and it is 1 PoC and one white-Jew are for it. The result is still the same: It is not what you're saying "Only whites was against this idea and against PoC's deciding it." Since it was PoC's who was against it. And I specifically wanted to hear the opinions of avenites and especially PoC avenites regarding this issue.

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Looking it up on google gives me results of people trying to make their conferences a safer space (compared to their usual I guess) where homophobic/transphobic/etc hateful words (I don't need to spell them out, do I?) are not allowed (anymore, I can read). But I found nothing about having separate rooms like the OP suggests. Since you seem to know more than I do about this topic, could you kindly provide some links so I can read more about it, please?

This discussion at LJ is just a start (and it was the second result that came up for PoC safe space: http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com/159505.html

parlance

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This is to discuss whether or not a "PoC only" room would be beneficial to some at the WP conference. Let's stick to topic and keep things civil, please.

Lia

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Looking it up on google gives me results of people trying to make their conferences a safer space (compared to their usual I guess) where homophobic/transphobic/etc hateful words (I don't need to spell them out, do I?) are not allowed (anymore, I can read). But I found nothing about having separate rooms like the OP suggests. Since you seem to know more than I do about this topic, could you kindly provide some links so I can read more about it, please?

This discussion at LJ is just a start (and it was the second result that came up for PoC safe space: http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com/159505.html

parlance

Oh you see, I know what a safe space in general is. For PoC and many other minority groups. Online and offline. I collaborate with several LGBT groups and organizations. I thought you meant that specific safe-space-rooms at conventions are common practice, and googling THAT up gave me nothing. You know of any convention that did something like this?

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Oh you see, I know what a safe space in general is. For PoC and many other minority groups. Online and offline. I collaborate with several LGBT groups and organizations. I thought you meant that specific safe-space-rooms at conventions are common practice, and googling THAT up gave me nothing. You know of any convention that did something like this?

You were making disparging remarks about the nature of a safe space, so I would still recommend reading that discussion. At any rate, WisCon is a good example of a Con. I haven't been there, and it hasn't been without struggle, but I've read encouraging things about their work to create a PoC safe space.

parlance

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You were making disparging remarks about the nature of a safe space

You keep misreading my posts and twisting my words, please forgive me if I will refrain from discussing this with you any further.

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(Please take into consideration the fact that I am not a POC, and while I am trying to be objective as possible, my opinion may be bias as a result)

In my personal opinion, I think it's a great idea to have a space to discuss asexual/queer issues that directly relate to POCs; however, disallowing non-POCs to engage in this discusssion, or enter this space is a form of racism in itself.


An objective question for consideration: if there were to be a "white only" space, would this be at all acceptable? Probably not. Is this then a double standard of race? Is it fair?

From a comparable perspective that doesn't include race: we are having a space for the discussion of asexuality (the asexual conference) where non-asexual people are also welcome to attend; is there then also a need to have an "asexual only" space within the conference?

I think with this second scenario, it would certainly be reasonable to allow asexual allies into the "asexual only" space (this can be debated of course), so wouldn't it then be reasonable to allow POC allies into the "POC only" space?

Just some things for consideration

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ithaca, I'm not sure how else words like weird and unusual can be read as anything but disparaging, but okay.

parlance

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ThaHoward, on 19 Mar 2014 - 3:56 PM, said:ThaHoward, on 19 Mar 2014 - 3:56 PM, said:ThaHoward, on 19 Mar 2014 - 3:56 PM, said:
And that is why I said you should make a poll to see if it is wanted or not. And you forgot to say that one who are Jewish (historically, and in most of Europe, a marginalized group and who face racism) and from what I've seen 3 POC's are opposed to it in that World Pride group. So including the Jew, it is 2 whites who are opposed to the idea and 3 POC's. From what I've seen you (white) was the obly one who was for it, while 3 POC's, one Jew and one "oppressor" was against it. Do I need to remind you that I agreed upon that I would rather have the opinions of PoC's? Don't make up facts.

What in the world is all this about!?!?

As far as safe space, just how many safe spaces would be enough for every single ethnic/religious/racial minority? And as someone said, how would media (whom we asexuals would at least hope would see asexuals with an open-minded attitude) portray this new orientation if all those flavors of asexuality demanded their own segregated space? Because that's what it sounds like to me: segregated, not dedicated. I'm old enough to remember segregation: places where certain people can't go.

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I'm PoC, I think there should be a PoC-only space that's available for PoC to use. It's not like anyone is going to be forcing PoC to go to that particular space. Also, I agree that there should be spaces for trans individuals, neurodivergent individuals, women, etc because our asexuality does indeed intersect with these other parts of our identities in ways that they don't necessarily intersect for people who are cis white male neurotypical able-bodied etc.

Also, while it would be fantastic to get some intersectional conversation going, I think PoC-only spaces are sometimes good for having non-101 level conversations on how these parts of our identities intersect. I mean, it's not like there aren't PoC who don't know these kinds of things, but what I've tended to notice is that when people from the in-group are present in out-group discussions, 99.9% of the time members of the out-group have to spend a lot of time teaching in-group folks basic 101 and/or dealing with derailment from in-group folks. (Obviously, in this case, out-group/in-group are used in reference for identities other than sexual orientation)

But either way, safe spaces are good to have.

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Captain Darkhorse

Honestly, having a safe space for every disenfranchised group sounds pretty messy. Given that as the poll currently stands at this moment, there's a higher percentage of the self-identified PoC community that do not want a designated space than non PoC's that don't want one either.

Um, guys, if this is all about providing a safe space, why not just call it a safe space instead of safe space but only for X group? I think having one singular safe space (with rules accommodating the respects of the PoC, trans, mental illness, all-of-the-minorities community) would be much better than having a safe space for every group. Think of it as similar to AVEN and hAVEN. There would be the main conference & everything (AVEN), and the safe space with additional rules as a conjoined but separate location (hAVEN).

I feel like this is getting more complicated than it really needs to be.

Edit: I'm all for an inclusive safe space btw.

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During an asexuality unconference that was held last summer in Berkeley, California, there was a workshop open to all people discussing the intersectionality of asexuality and race. After that workshop some of the people who attended the workshop discussed among themselves the issues they faced for being a racial minority (where they lived) as well as asexual. Conversations after the sessions naturally cropped up between people who could relate to each other even though there was no scheduled time and place for those conversations to be had. I don't think any of them would see that unscheduled time in between the sessions as a "waste of time." For those who attended the Asexuality and Race workshop, it created a sense of connection because it connected white allies with non-white people and allowed everyone to share experiences and learn from each other.

So you spoke to everyone in-depth, and you know for sure that was the impression they each came away with? I think that's a difficult thing to determine just by observation. Additionally, the conversations that take place between PoC and white people vs. PoC amongst themselves are often going to be qualitatively different. In the latter situation, PoC are less likely to have to spend time explaining themselves to others, allowing them to dig deeper in a shorter time.

Also, let's not limit the idea of a safe space to helping people cope with the opposition. It's a powerful, comforting and inspirational thing simply to be among people who share similar and recognizable experiences.

Overall, there seems to be a disconcerting sense of entitlement to the words and minds of PoC in many of the comments here - the idea that PoC exist to teach others. If PoC want to talk with white people about their experiences or intersectionality or racism, etc., having a safe space won't keep them from doing so. Neither will denying them a safe space force them to talk with you.

parlance

I was responding to your statement "There's a difference between wasting time searching for quiet spaces between breaks and already having one provided" by giving an example of how it is not seen by everyone as a waste of time. The general sentiment was that the workshop was positive for all. During the break times, I also heard those who weren't white discuss with each other about how much they enjoyed the workshop and discuss the issues and topics that were brought up. (There weren't any white people around when this took place).

I don't see anyone here as suggesting that it's the job of non-white or "PoC" to educate white people on racism or intersectionality. What most people are saying is that they think it's better for equality to be achieved through integration and open dialogue with all individuals. Not all non-white people feel the same way about having a designated "PoC-only" safe space either. Some "PoC" oppose this idea because it makes them feel condescended to (i.e. white people are seemingly only valuing their opinions because of their minority status and white people feel they need to "protect" non-whites from racism simply to show that they're not racist.)

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I don't see anyone here as suggesting that it's the job of non-white or "PoC" to educate white people on racism or intersectionality. What most people are saying is that they think it's better for equality to be achieved through integration and open dialogue with all individuals.

The problem is that many people feel threatened by the idea of a PoC space and refuse to understand that it doesn't preclude the possiblity of a discussion of intersectionality. It's not either or scenario, it can be both and. But it's not the same thing, but people keep conflating the two. They keep privileging the intersectionality discussion (which originally wasn't even on the table) as if discussing race matters only when white people are present. And, BTW, no one has to say explicitly that it's PoC's responsiblity to educate them; it happens at discussions where members of the dominant group don't bother to do their own research, and the marginalized group ends up doing the work of teaching the other in order to facilitate a production conversation. Meanwhile, PoC-centric conversations are dismissed as racist and segregationist and therefore useless. We've had one person go so far as to start a separate thread while dismissing this one as having turned into a discussion of racism (as if that weren't relevant to the topic at hand). There's been a lot of deflecting and derailing and talking over each other, but not a lot of listening.

Not all non-white people feel the same way about having a designated "PoC-only" safe space either.

Yes, I know - I've been watching the poll and reading the responses. My problem at the head of the discussion was the suggestion that white people should have a say in that. If the majority of PoC don't want it, that's fine. The problem I've had is the wholesale dismissal of the idea of a PoC space without much interest in learning why such spaces might be desireable or necessary.

parlance

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I'm Jewish (ish) and I voted no.

Intersectionality is important to me believe it or not. It's one of my favorite things about sociology. And that's why it should be shared with everyone and not huddled in a corner.

Also to me, making a room dedicated to one group in case they get offended seems racist. It seems like I'm saying "I am going to step on eggshells around you because you are a PoC." Nobody should be treated differently because of their skin color.

As far as white people not having a say in this: I think everyone should have a say in everything but the weight is obviously different. I will weigh PoC's opinions on this issue more heavily then some other AVEN members, but some non-PoCs brought up some good insight as well.

This is all my personal opinion btw, nothing WP or Admodly in here at all

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