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Crying

Guess there's no hope.

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Percivel

I think is is hard to list the most important things in a relationship. For me what I look for is a package deal. Within that package are certain things that are above all else and necessary and expected if I was thinking of a long term relationship. Trust, communication, sexual intimacy, non sexual intimacy, fun, similar interests, similar values, compassion, respect and probably a few others. If any one of these were missing in my potential girlfriend I wouldn't date them. I certainly wouldn't marry them. So, to say "sexual intimacy" is the most important or "trust" is the most important or "respect" is the most important.....Asking someone to list what is most important might not be such a fair question. For me it's the package and whats in the priority package. All other traits are pluses and minuses but don't nearly carry the weight of the package or what's in the package. If I find out later that something is actually not in the all important package.....well, then I have a decision to make.

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Feral_Sophisticate
So, I am now an outsider from the marital counseling that I initiated to attempt to save my marriage, if it can be saved.

Sure felt like a kick.

Understandably so. Allow me to ask you this, though:

Have you told this to the counsellor?

I suspect he or she has no idea how you're feeling about this - and if they knew, they'd change things accordingly. If they don't know that you're having an issue with the therapy schedule, how are they supposed to do anything about it?

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Serran
So, I am now an outsider from the marital counseling that I initiated to attempt to save my marriage, if it can be saved.

Sure felt like a kick.

Understandably so. Allow me to ask you this, though:

Have you told this to the counsellor?

I suspect he or she has no idea how you're feeling about this - and if they knew, they'd change things accordingly. If they don't know that you're having an issue with the therapy schedule, how are they supposed to do anything about it?

It's also possible to get the opinion of a different therapist. Often finding a therapist is like dating, you have to find one that fits with what YOU want out of therapy. So perhaps he could see this one individually, but you could find one that would see the two of you together. Different therapists have different methods.

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radiantheart

I'm sorry it didn't end well for you Radientheart. It must be very hard for you to counsel your ex about his new girl. I'm surprised you can do that. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Well, we're still together, sorta. It's a mess but I'm somehow okay with it. More than he is, and more than I ever thought I could be. o_O;~ But thanks!

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ryn.malcom

If he didn't love you, he wouldn't have married you.

Sex and love don't mean the same thing. You're 'sexual' world is predicated on the ideals that are shoved on us by television, romance novels and reality shows. There isn't a sexual and asexual world just like there isn't a 'real' and 'online' world. Its a single world and we all need to just deal with that fact that not everyone is going to want to have the same things.

Your husband came out to you, which is a pretty big thing. Some posts on here are about how hard it is to come out to our parents. Can you imagine, for a second, how hard it must have been for him to come out to you know that you want sex? At least those of us who haven't come out don't have that kind of pressure.

Feeling lonely and used is normal but I don't think you're going about it the right way. You're taking a victims stand point and that's a pretty pathetic stand to take. Just because you're assuming he's completely determined to remain celebate doesn't mean you can't at least talk to him. Maybe you can work somethin out.

I'm sorry. But you're kind of being the thing a lot of asexuals dread meeting in a partner.

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Einy

I'm sorry. But you're kind of being the thing a lot of asexuals dread meeting in a partner.

Most of the sexuals would dread the idea that their partners will come out to them as asexuals AFTER they got married

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lissi

Sadly Ryn, you live in a sexual world. A world where sex and love are intertwined for most people. If you want to avoid being in a relationship with someone for whom sex is important you will need to be honest about how you feel about sex.

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WhenSummersGone

A world where sex and love are intertwined for most people.

Not most but some. Not everyone see's sex as love.

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lissi

Who said everyone? I appreciate that you do not understand the love - sex relationship but this view is more common than you think. The majority of sexuals are not out humping anything that moves.

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WhenSummersGone

Who said everyone? I appreciate that you do not understand the love - sex relationship but this view is more common than you think. The majority of sexuals are not out humping anything that moves.

I didn't say I didn't understand those types of relationships. Our world has bars, one night stands, hook ups, booty calls, friends with benefits and hookers. Just look at all the people having sex on a first date, that isn't sex+love that's just sex. So no, not most people see sex as love but some do.

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lissi

Most people are not in these bars and do not use hookers! I can understand how you have acquired your view of sexuals though. Sexuals at home making love to their partners are not visible. Please don't base your views on what you see in bars and your experience of internet dating.

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WhenSummersGone

Most people are not in these bars and do not use hookers! I can understand how you have acquired your view of sexuals though. Sexuals at home making love to their partners are not visible. Please don't base your views on what you see in bars and your experience of internet dating.

If sex = love then most single people would rather stay celibate than have sex. That's not the case. You don't need to be "in love" with someone to have sex plus there are aromantic sexuals. Some people "make love" and some don't. Some people have casual sex and some don't. Everyone is different.

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Serran

Most people are not in these bars and do not use hookers! I can understand how you have acquired your view of sexuals though. Sexuals at home making love to their partners are not visible. Please don't base your views on what you see in bars and your experience of internet dating.

If sex = love then most single people would rather stay celibate than have sex. That's not the case. You don't need to be "in love" with someone to have sex plus there are aromantic sexuals. Some people "make love" and some don't. Some people have casual sex and some don't. Everyone is different.

My boyfriend considers sex vital to love and to him, love without sex is a friendship. He also enjoyed casual sex. To him, casual sex was exercise and masturbation with a partner. But, sex with someone he loves is "making love" and important. There isn't some either sex is love, or sex is sex straight black line. A lot of people find sex vital in a loving relationship and very important to bonding, yet still enjoy casual sex if they are single. Some people are like my ex who will be celibate 2 years cause he hasn't found anyone he really likes. And some people are like my brother who find relationships too restricting, but still likes sex.

But, I really wish people would stop attacking sexuals for finding sex vital in their relationships.

Should the sexuals start telling us how terrible we are for whatever we find vital? Your idea of cuddling and intellectual discussion makes it seem like that is all you care about, what about people that aren't as educated as you? What about those who are touch averse? Your world is an idea made up in movies and television, real life means making compromises and sacrifices. If they are with you, it's because they love you, isn't that enough?

... not really something that works when you apply it to yourself and your needs (whatever they may be) is it? Why be miserable with a partner that isn't what you thought they were? Just to keep them happy? Why on earth should anyone sacrifice themselves for their partner? What would that prove?

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WhenSummersGone

My only point was that not most people see sex as only love. Sometimes, or for some people, sex is just an activity for sexual pleasure and love plays no part in it.

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lissi

I never said love = sex. I said for most people they are intertwined. Some need to be in love to have sex. Some fall in love through sex. Some need sex to feel loved. I am sure this is not an exhaustive account of the ways in which sex and love are related. For some there is no relationship at all between sex and love. Two single people having sex doesn't necessarily mean there is no love, no desire for love, or that they won't fall in love.

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WhenSummersGone

I said for most people they are intertwined.

Sex can just be sex for some people, so I don't believe most people feel they are linked together. Some do and some don't. It varies.

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lissi

I hardly know anyone for whom sex is just sex but then I don't hang around in bars. I never said love and sex were intertwined for everyone. Most = majority. A world where sex and love are intertwined in the minds of most people doesn't necessarily mean that on every single occasion they have sex they are in love.

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Mycroft is Yourcroft

Crying how are you doing?

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WhenSummersGone

I hardly know anyone for whom sex is just sex but then I don't hang around in bars. I never said love and sex were intertwined for everyone. Most = majority. A world where sex and love are intertwined in the minds of most people doesn't necessarily mean that on every single occasion they have sex they are in love.

Like I said everyone is different so "most" doesn't sound accurate. Opinions can vary though so I'm not going to argue on this anymore.

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skullery

I'm sorry. But you're kind of being the thing a lot of asexuals dread meeting in a partner.

So?

If you don't like sex, or you need sex every day, or if you have a shoe fetish, or any other detail of your sexuality, you need to be honest about it. If you're not, and you end up in a relationship with someone with whom you're a terrible match and they get pissed, that's on you. All we can do is try to be genuine.

If a lesbian dated a heterosexual man, had tons of sex until marriage and then said "actually, I only want to have sex with women now", I would expect the husband to be furious. I would certainly not call him homophobic. Not wanting to be married to someone with a differing orientation is not the same as being anti- that orientation.

I think Pandante and I are the only sexuals on here that got married AFTER acknowledging our partner's asexuality. When my partner and I started dating, she never lied about her libido. She did have sex more often back then, but it was an issue in the relationship from the second week. She had no language for it... she would just say that usually when sex was initiated, it upset her. We talked and fought about it a ton over the course of a year, but the dust settled eventually. At some point I realized it was my choice, and putting her through the constant "well let's try once a week" crap wasn't fair to either of us. Basically, I had to decide to take it or leave it.

I decided to take it. And I try to abide by that decision responsibly, meaning that any frustrations I have are mine, not her problem. But that's because I was given a choice, you know?

Crying was given no choice. And honestly, were I in her situation, I'd have moved into a spare room and emotionally distanced myself too, because finding out that your partner stole your right to make that "take it or leave it" choice is very, very hard to get around. I don't think I'd be able to.

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Sally

Crying was given no choice. And honestly, were I in her situation, I'd have moved into a spare room and emotionally distanced myself too, because finding out that your partner stole your right to make that "take it or leave it" choice is very, very hard to get around. I don't think I'd be able to.

True. But she and others do have a choice now, and it's their choice to make. I doubt if moving into a spare room and distancing themselves is a great choice, because it pretty much traps both parties into a dead-end relationship.

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skullery

Crying was given no choice. And honestly, were I in her situation, I'd have moved into a spare room and emotionally distanced myself too, because finding out that your partner stole your right to make that "take it or leave it" choice is very, very hard to get around. I don't think I'd be able to.

True. But she and others do have a choice now, and it's their choice to make. I doubt if moving into a spare room and distancing themselves is a great choice, because it pretty much traps both parties into a dead-end relationship.

Oh, definitely!! My point is that there's a difference between not knowing about asexuality and the language of it all, and outright lying. You, Mr. LG, my partner, etc, were all fairly consistent, behaviorally. There's always pressure to conform to a new lover's desires, and that's true for sexuals and asexuals alike. I'm the first person to say "your partner didn't lie to you just because they didn't know what asexuality was", but some situations, like this one, involve a party who was actively trying to deceive. Given how confusing sexuality is, I think it's good to err on the side of assuming there was no intentional deception... but when a person's behavior changes overnight and the only communication is deflecting and hostile, that's a whole other ball of wax.

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Frucious

How do you know he was “actively trying to deceive” Skullery? I've read the thread, it's a one sided story. This man is NOT here to answer for himself. How do we know what's going on in his head? You make it sound like the whole thing was premeditated. Some kind of of smash and grab operation. Is that what you really think?

I've read this thread with growing anger these past few days. I'm angry at the sheer lack of empathy shown towards this man by various forum members and some of us are far too quick to speculate and jump to conclusions. This anecdotal and circumstantial account doesn't provide enough information to justify the accusations being thrown at him from various quarters.

Cut the guy some slack for goodness sake.

I sympathise with the OP but at the same time empathise with the man in question. I've been in a similar situation but luckily I didn't get married. I've never “actively deceived” anyone in my life, far from it. I managed to fool myself and those around me into thinking I was somehow normal but it in the end, things didn't turn out so well. I discovered only recently that I'm asexual although I'm still coming to terms with it.

Crying, I know you are angry but your posts have a very hostile tone to them. Like breeds like and your combativeness may only serve to exacerbate an already difficult situation.

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Kagon

I think you are jumping to conclusions by deciding that he is asexual.

If he was willing to have sex in the past but is not now, I would guess that he is scared of something, not that he has stopped being attracted to you, nor that he never was attracted to you.

As to what that something that he's afraid of is, I don't know but some guesses include:

1. Pregnancy.

2. Impotence

3. Revealing some other physical problem he's been having.

4. Fear related to being married and what that means to him.

5. Fear of passing on an STD.

I strongly suggest you guys see a marriage counselor.

We did, at my insistence. I got kicked out so that the sessions could focus on him.

"Kicked out"? Why those very specific words?

I was asked by the counselor if I would agree to not attending the sessions with my husband because he needed to address his issues. I was told I could check in for part of a session once a month to 'remain abreast of his progress'. I was upset by this suggestion that I was not welcome in my own marital counseling, and that the sessions had become his place to be heard and not my place at all.

said that I did not agree. I was told that if I didn't agree, I was welcome to make appointments for individual counseling, but that seeing us together "where all we did was bicker" was counterproductive..

So while I was being asked to 'agree', it seemed the decision had been made that I could attend the placating monthly half session to 'check in', or I could go it alone, or both, but what I wanted, which would be being seen together, wasn't being offered.

So, I am now an outsider from the marital counseling that I initiated to attempt to save my marriage, if it can be saved.

Sure felt like a kick.

After reading through this thread - there is something I feel I should point out here. I understand where you're feeling like this was a "kick" of sorts, but from what you've described in this thread - the majority of what you're dealing with in the relationship *are* your husband's issues. Counseling for these issues how ever they need to be dealt with, then, would still be counseling for the relationship. From what you've described, it sounds like your husband is at a point where he is unwilling or unable to get into the heart of what is going on with *his* side of the matter with you there. But - *these* issues are the most significant problem you're facing. *You* have been doing your best to communicate with him, but - *HE* is not communicating with you in return.

As such, I can see where the therapist would want to focus attention specifically on him - because *HE* has issues that have to be handled specifically for the relationship counseling to be successful. It's kind of the foundation that has to happen before joint sessions can make any progress. That communication issue is a key problem that has to be addressed - but I can see the therapist working with him individually first to try to get that communication flowing.

That doesn't mean that you have to accept the schedule as is. Individual sessions could still be beneficial to you, as you're still dealing with a lot of hurt and feelings of loss here. Otherwise, perhaps you can suggest that he keep his individual sessions, and that after that first monthly session you start having joint sessions more frequently *with him keeping individual sessions as well*. But...unless your therapist is able to pry him open and get him to work on whatever he is struggling with, you're not going to get anywhere in joint sessions. *BOTH* of you have to be open and communicative in those, and from what you have described - he currently isn't.

In any case, I just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry for what you've gone through. There are things I could point out to about half a dozen posts, but that would make this a ridiculously long wall of text that would be hard to manage in one go. So...just know for now that I wish you the best of luck here, in whatever situation best satisfies what your needs are moving forward.

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skullery

Frucious, on 05 Apr 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:
How do you know he was “actively trying to deceive” Skullery? I've read the thread, it's a one sided story. This man is NOT here to answer for himself. How do we know what's going on in his head? You make it sound like the whole thing was premeditated. Some kind of of smash and grab operation. Is that what you really think?

Because I know how to read, and then take that information and process it with my brain? Because when you act overly and intentionally sexual until marriage, completely change your behavior, and then sit back and refuse to discuss, work on it, or even acknowledge the problem it created, then yeah, there was some active deception.

Did you somehow miss this:

Crying, on 01 Apr 2014 - 6:46 PM, said:
He went overboard with his 'being sexual', to the point where I had to tell him that his public displays of affection needed to be reined in because I felt they were unfair to those around us. He wanted sex three or four times week, and while it was never deeply emotional sex (now I know why) for him, he did seem to be interested.

He finally told me that he didn't really have an interest in sex about two months after we married, when I burst into frustrated tears asking why he suddenly had begun treating me like he wasn't attracted to me any more, stopped initiating, and always had a ready excuse to refuse if I should make any attempt to get his interest. He said to me "I give you plenty of hugs and kisses, isn't that enough?", and I would scurry away, mortified and heartbroken that my new husband didn't want sex with me.

I've read this thread with growing anger these past few days. I'm angry at the sheer lack of empathy shown towards this man by various forum members and some of us are far too quick to speculate and jump to conclusions. This anecdotal and circumstantial account doesn't provide enough information to justify the accusations being thrown at him from various quarters.

This isn't a court of law. We aren't compiling evidence and coming to a binding conclusion. There's no reason to doubt Crying's story, and holy god I'd hate to see the wrath that you'd bring down if we dared doubt an asexual's story, so... let's be consistent, eh? Crying hasn't said anything contradictory, outside the realm of possibility, or even hard to believe. What exactly would the benefit be to assuming that everyone is lying about everything they say? How could we possibly communicate on here? It seems to me that the only reason you don't want to believe Crying is because it makes you emotionally uncomfortable. But, the way we decide whether or not to believe someone isn't "does it make Fructious uncomfortable".

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*Judy*

How do you know he was “actively trying to deceive” Skullery? I've read the thread, it's a one sided story. This man is NOT here to answer for himself. How do we know what's going on in his head? You make it sound like the whole thing was premeditated. Some kind of of smash and grab operation. Is that what you really think?

I've read this thread with growing anger these past few days. I'm angry at the sheer lack of empathy shown towards this man by various forum members and some of us are far too quick to speculate and jump to conclusions. This anecdotal and circumstantial account doesn't provide enough information to justify the accusations being thrown at him from various quarters.

Cut the guy some slack for goodness sake.

I sympathise with the OP but at the same time empathise with the man in question. I've been in a similar situation but luckily I didn't get married. I've never “actively deceived” anyone in my life, far from it. I managed to fool myself and those around me into thinking I was somehow normal but it in the end, things didn't turn out so well. I discovered only recently that I'm asexual although I'm still coming to terms with it.

Crying, I know you are angry but your posts have a very hostile tone to them. Like breeds like and your combativeness may only serve to exacerbate an already difficult situation.

Unfortunately her husband doesn't want to talk about anything related to his sexuality - is she forced to shut up about it? No, she has the need to communicate about her feelings, what's wrong about it? I'd really like to hear the husbands side of the story aswell, but according to the descriptions she gave, this won't happen. So her side is all we got, and as skullery already said: some of what she told were facts! When he did something, it really happended, why should she lie about it?

Look, we aren't evil, we just kind of collect different point of views and ideas and some of them won't be easy to take, but that's what an open forum is and as long as we aren't hostile, the only thing I can say is: take it or leave it. Every second post in here contains the sentence: We can't tell you if your partner is asexual, he has to find this out alone - there you go: we don't send people to hell or jail. We are stating opinions and it's ok if you state that you are not ok with this, but what was your goal behind this?

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Frucious

This thread does make me uncomfortable, yes Skullery.

I'm not accusing Crying of lying, she's seems to be very in touch with her feelings. It's the man of this story that is being openly accused. It seems to me he's spent his life living in a state of denial. He probably believes he is normal, that his outlook on sex and marriage is a given for everyone. It's not an “active deception” if the man is unable to be honest with himself.

If someone is in denial, they don't see the world as others do. They only process bit's and pieces of information that confirm what they think to be right. The real truth doesn't register. It just washes over them and they remain unaffected even when it stares them in the face.

Lets look at what HIS truth might be. I'll speculate on his behalf. It seems to be the done thing around here.

Having less sex after marriage is an age old phenomena. It's an “in” joke to those that are married. People talk about it all the time often with their tongue placed firmly in their cheek. For him, this might seem a normal state of affairs and he's ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. It's also common for people to talk about an over-abundance of sex during courtship that becomes less frequent as time passes. Again, this might seem like normal behaviour to him, even expected.

He's getting older and probably feeling lonely. Along comes Crying, who shows interest, has kids and grand-kids and he probably thinks this is great. A second chance. In his own way, he courts her and gets carried away with himself in the moment. Doing what he thinks he's supposed to do and what she expects of him. I don't see any malicious intent here. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. It's stated that he's good with the children, maybe that's something that spurred him on. A chance to have children he never had.

I think some on this forum are showing real insensitivity towards this man. It makes me feel both sad and angry.

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lissi

He can manage to do what she expects until the marriage but not after? He can pick up on suggestions about marriage and deminishing sex but not anything about honeymooners or newly weds? Very convenient.

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Kagon

This thread does make me uncomfortable, yes Skullery.

I'm not accusing Crying of lying, she's seems to be very in touch with her feelings. It's the man of this story that is being openly accused. It seems to me he's spent his life living in a state of denial. He probably believes he is normal, that his outlook on sex and marriage is a given for everyone. It's not an “active deception” if the man is unable to be honest with himself.

If someone is in denial, they don't see the world as others do. They only process bit's and pieces of information that confirm what they think to be right. The real truth doesn't register. It just washes over them and they remain unaffected even when it stares them in the face.

Lets look at what HIS truth might be. I'll speculate on his behalf. It seems to be the done thing around here.

Having less sex after marriage is an age old phenomena. It's an “in” joke to those that are married. People talk about it all the time often with their tongue placed firmly in their cheek. For him, this might seem a normal state of affairs and he's ignoring all the evidence to the contrary. It's also common for people to talk about an over-abundance of sex during courtship that becomes less frequent as time passes. Again, this might seem like normal behaviour to him, even expected.

He's getting older and probably feeling lonely. Along comes Crying, who shows interest, has kids and grand-kids and he probably thinks this is great. A second chance. In his own way, he courts her and gets carried away with himself in the moment. Doing what he thinks he's supposed to do and what she expects of him. I don't see any malicious intent here. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. It's stated that he's good with the children, maybe that's something that spurred him on. A chance to have children he never had.

I think some on this forum are showing real insensitivity towards this man. It makes me feel both sad and angry.

Regardless of what her husband may have 'expected' though - it was and is his responsibility to communicate his feelings. I'm not saying that he's 100% in the wrong by any means - but he also hasn't been very communicative; and open, honest communication is what is needed here if things are going to get *anywhere.* Crying has detailed trying to talk to him about understanding his point of view, and is simply rebuffed about "wanting to be right" and given answers that simply "tell her what she wants to hear".

I understand that there is probably a lot going on here, and that we haven't heard his side. But - he hasn't been wiling to *share* his side, and that is a large part of the problem. Crying is well within her rights to be incredibly frustrated and exasperated with the situation, seeing as she doesn't have the marriage she expected (whether intentionally deceitful or not) and trying to understand her husband's point of view leads to hostility from his side. Yes, there probably *is* a whole other story here - but that doesn't invalidate the OP's story, what the OP is going through, and the OP's need for support. And, until the husband is willing to open up about *his* feelings and *his* side of the story, Crying's side is all we have. Everything else is speculation. Yes, we can give insight as to what *MIGHT* be going on in his head, but ultimately...it's his story to tell. And thus far - he hasn't been telling it.

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HorseTrainer

I guess I look at it as the same kind of day in day out enjoyment that comes with food. Most people eat food. They like some food better than other food, and there are certain combinations that just seem like heaven. Some food, I have every day, and have for decades. I never get tired of coffee or fresh apples, can have them multiple times a day and still enjoy them again a few hours later. It comforts me to know that coffee and apples are usually available, and always are satisfying. I've had bad coffee now and then, but it was never preferable to have none.

There are other foods that I don't want all of the time, like a heavy holiday meal or a really rich dessert. Wonderful now and then, but too often and it starts to get overwhelming.

Sex is like that. There is sex that is easy, familiar, satisfying, comforting and grounding. That kind of sex is the loving kind that kept the connection strong between my partner and me. It was the sustaining sex, the sex that made us a couple, the delicious secret ingredient that made our relationship delicious. Now and then, there is over the top sex ( many people call this "vacation sex") where it's just longer, stronger, more intense and more astonishingly emotional.

Over the top sex, oh my, it's hard to describe. It bonds you together like glue, sometimes even ends in tears of joy and awe. Like a holiday, it takes you to a place where your roots are entwined, feeds your soul, nourishes your heart. To look into your partner's eyes and see that they are with you in that magical place where all that matters is that you are together and giving each other pleasure and love that defies words? Oh, my, it's life regenerating itself. It's fireworks and world peace all in one delicious bite. It's something that completes us, makes us feel like we are exactly who we should be, and we need nothing more. I usually say something that I normally might feel shy saying, reveal something wonderful to my partner like "I knew you in my last life just like I know you in this life and will know you forever." It makes no sense word for word, but when spoken while in that bonded heartspace, it means everything.

You know some people describe very similar things with meditation. Skilled meditators can experience a profound sense of connectedness and bliss. I'm a big TED.com fan http://on.ted.com/Puddicombe Your experience during great sex almost sounds like a sex meditation?

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