AVENwiki Musings: Minus Pansexuality

[Guest member25959]

As you may or may not know, we've got a Wiki /endblatantadvertisement

Welp, you're probably aware of the whole Wiki culture anyways. Anyone with an account can edit an open article, and as a result, an edit may represent the opinion of the editor. So, not so much of a surprise when this edit turned up in our Recent Changes feed not so long ago...

A common misconception of bisexuality is that it is the attraction to both males and females. In reality, bisexuals can feel attraction to a variety of genders

... doesn't really seem that bad? Here's the previous (edited out) version:

Though alike, a pansexual feels attraction to a person outside of the gender binary.

So basically, the reference to pansexuality was removed, and replaced with a newer reference to bisexuality. I usually stay away from identity stuff, so I'm not sure what to make of this. It's pretty interesting, I guess? Share your thoughts

[qwair]

Both are correct. According to bisexual activists, bisexuality is an attraction both to your own gender and to other genders. Pansexuality is a label that emphasises attraction outside the gender binary. To quote wikipedia:

Pansexuality may or may not be subsumed under bisexuality, with some sources stating that bisexuality encompasses romantic or sexual attraction to all gender identities or that it is romantic or sexual attraction to a person irrespective of that person's biological sex or gender.^[4][6] The concept of pansexuality deliberately rejects the gender binary, the "notion of two genders and indeed of specific sexual orientations",^[6] as pansexual people are open to relationships with people who do not identify as strictly men or women.^[4][6] Though the definition of pansexuality encourages the belief that it is the only category that covers individuals who do not cleanly fit into the categories of male/man or female/woman,^[14] the term bisexuality includes attraction to intersexed and transgender people (who may identify as men, women, both or neither).^[15][16] The term pansexuality is used interchangeably with bisexuality, and, similarly, people who identify as bisexual may "feel that gender, biological sex, and sexual orientation should not be a focal point in potential [romantic/sexual] relationships".^[6]

So the situation is rather murky. In any case, I wouldn't trust sources that say, that bisexuals definitely aren't attracted to non-gendered binary people -- they tend not to come from the bisexual community.

[Vyanni Krace]

The general idea is that bisexuality means you're attracted to two (or sometimes more, but not all) different genders. This could be the same gender and the opposite gender, or both men and women, but it could also mean women and agendered people, or any other selection. Pansexuality means you're attracted to all genders because the gender doesn't matter all that much to you (though even Pansexuals have preferences. For example they may be attracted to all genders but generally leans more towards feminine people, etc.).

I'll admit I'm a little bit miffed that Pansexuality has been removed in favour of that definition, because I'm panromantic myself. :/ However I think all it needs is to elaborate on the definition a bit to explain the variety that can be seen in bisexuality, and then afterwards explain the difference between bisexuality and Pansexuality.

[mayve]

I don't know. I identify with biromantic, but I'm not that attracted to people outside the binary - personally.

I prefer my women women and my men men. (I'm not trying to be offensive to people outside the binary, I'm just saying what I like)

Pansexuality is a much more accurate description than bisexuality for attraction outside the binary.

So I guess I don't find that edit appropriate.

I mean, it is fair to mention that some bisexuals are attracted to people other than the norm

but to state they all do? I find that incorrect

and to completely erase pansexuality? no.

I was thought to believe pansexuality was the definition for attraction to all genders, even the non-binary ones

not that they are only attracted to the non-binary...

[SquirrelCat]

Let's just call it Panbisexuality and be done with it. :twisted:

Because, trust me I have tried; I have read the definitions more times than I can count, I have read wikipedia, I have googled... but there is a part of me that cannot for the world understand how these two are not the same thing, just explained a little differently...

Please, someone help me understand.

I don't want to be the one who didn't get it.

[Vyanni Krace]

Let's just call it Panbisexuality and be done with it. :twisted:

Because, trust me I have tried; I have read the definitions more times than I can count, I have read wikipedia, I have googled... but there is a part of me that cannot for the world understand how these two are not the same thing, just explained a little differently...

Please, someone help me understand.

I don't want to be the one who didn't get it.

Bisexuality means a person is attracted to two (or sometimes more) genders, most typically male and female.

Pansexuality is an attraction to all genders, not just a few of them.

That is where they differ. Pansexuals are attracted to all genders. Bisexuals are only attracted to a couple. Not all. I explained it in more detail in my first post:

The general idea is that bisexuality means you're attracted to two (or sometimes more, but not all) different genders. This could be the same gender and the opposite gender, or both men and women, but it could also mean women and agendered people, or any other selection. Pansexuality means you're attracted to all genders because the gender doesn't matter all that much to you (though even Pansexuals have preferences. For example they may be attracted to all genders but generally leans more towards feminine people, etc.).

[Guest]

What? What was even the purpose of editing that out? I don't really get it.

Plus, the way it was before, it seemed like pansexuals could only be attracted to one person outside the binary. E.g. they can't be attracted to males and females, or to multiple people at the same time. It did need some editing, but it hasn't been done in the best possible way :P

[SquirrelCat]

Let's just call it Panbisexuality and be done with it. :twisted:

Because, trust me I have tried; I have read the definitions more times than I can count, I have read wikipedia, I have googled... but there is a part of me that cannot for the world understand how these two are not the same thing, just explained a little differently...

Please, someone help me understand.

I don't want to be the one who didn't get it.

Bisexuality means a person is attracted to two (or sometimes more) genders, most typically male and female.

Pansexuality is an attraction to all genders, not just a few of them.

That is where they differ. Pansexuals are attracted to all genders. Bisexuals are only attracted to a couple. Not all. I explained it in more detail in my first post:

The general idea is that bisexuality means you're attracted to two (or sometimes more, but not all) different genders. This could be the same gender and the opposite gender, or both men and women, but it could also mean women and agendered people, or any other selection. Pansexuality means you're attracted to all genders because the gender doesn't matter all that much to you (though even Pansexuals have preferences. For example they may be attracted to all genders but generally leans more towards feminine people, etc.).

I somehow get it. But it feels like they're cheering for the same team only the Pansexuals are cheering a little harder. (does that make sense?)

[Vyanni Krace]

Let's just call it Panbisexuality and be done with it. :twisted:

Because, trust me I have tried; I have read the definitions more times than I can count, I have read wikipedia, I have googled... but there is a part of me that cannot for the world understand how these two are not the same thing, just explained a little differently...

Please, someone help me understand.

I don't want to be the one who didn't get it.

Bisexuality means a person is attracted to two (or sometimes more) genders, most typically male and female.

Pansexuality is an attraction to all genders, not just a few of them.

That is where they differ. Pansexuals are attracted to all genders. Bisexuals are only attracted to a couple. Not all. I explained it in more detail in my first post:

The general idea is that bisexuality means you're attracted to two (or sometimes more, but not all) different genders. This could be the same gender and the opposite gender, or both men and women, but it could also mean women and agendered people, or any other selection. Pansexuality means you're attracted to all genders because the gender doesn't matter all that much to you (though even Pansexuals have preferences. For example they may be attracted to all genders but generally leans more towards feminine people, etc.).

I somehow get it. But it feels like they're cheering for the same team only the Pansexuals are cheering a little harder. (does that make sense?)

I suppose. *Shrugs.* Its all down to attraction really.

(I'm panromantic myself.)

[qwair]

Bisexuality means a person is attracted to two (or sometimes more) genders, most typically male and female.

Pansexuality is an attraction to all genders, not just a few of them.

That is where they differ. Pansexuals are attracted to all genders. Bisexuals are only attracted to a couple. Not all. I explained it in more detail in my first post:

You're free, of course, to use that as you definition, just be aware that many bisexual people and institutions disagree (including the American institute of bisexuality, and Colorado State University, among others). I would say that the label pansexual emphasises being attracted to people outside the gender binary, however, the label 'bisexual' doesn't guarantee the opposite. Many pansexuals, myself included, use the term bisexual too and regard pansexuality as a subset of bisexuality.

[Guest]

While I personally dislike the word pansexuality, I'd agree with the version before the edit a lot more. If someone IDs as pan, not bi, then we have no place saying or implying that they're "really bi". Erasure is not cool. (Unless we're talking about a certain pop band, because those two guys are cool. :lol: 8))

However, I would surmise that a big lot of self-identified bisexuals are "'really' pan" by definition, but call themselves bi because they find the word pansexual shitty...

[Philip027]

I'd wager more because they've never heard of pan-, whereas everyone has heard of bi-

[Guest]

I'd wager more because they've never heard of pan-, whereas everyone has heard of bi-

Yeah, that, too... which is all the more reason not to make the word disappear from wikis, if you ask me.

[Siggy]

What's the context? I checked, and the OP is talking about the page for bisexuality. Yes, it is appropriate to edit out pansexuality, because there is a separate page for pansexuality, and it's linked right there. The modified definition of bisexuality looks fine to me.

There is indeed a common misconception about bisexuality, that anyone IDing as bisexual must only be attracted to male and female, or that they only acknowledge male and female genders. It is appropriate to correct this misconception on the wiki.

[Philip027]

I think it's pretty confusing to try to meld bisexuality in that way.

For one thing, bi- pretty clearly means "two", not "two or more". When my bicycle had three wheels, it was called a tricycle instead

For another thing, I'd wager 99.99~% of the people who use the term bisexuality ARE indeed using it to refer to male and female, specifically

[ithaca]

Links to the two pages:
http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Bisexual
http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Pansexuality

In my opinion, they can both be edited to also explain the difficulties and debate behind this distinction.

My very rough draft, that will certainly benefit from other people's opinions and suggestions...

For the bisexuality page:

Bisexuality is a sexual orientation describing people that experience sexual attraction also to people of their same gender. There isn't agreement regarding whether or not "bisexual" means attracted to "men and women" (people identifying inside the gender binary system) or if it includes other genders outside the binary (so not only two genders as the word would suggest). Part of the LGBT community uses the word "pansexual" to describe attraction to all genders and "bisexual" for attraction to only men and women: some bisexual identified people state they happen to not be attracted to people outside the binary, ergo why they feel the distinction helps them conveying a different meaning than the word "pansexual" conveys. Another part of the community thinks the distinction between the two words is futile, since many people identifying as bisexual actually feel attraction to people of more genders than just men and women.

And for the pansexual page:

A pansexual is someone who may experience sexual attraction toward people regardless of gender and physical sex. "Pansexuality" is used by part of the LGBT community to explain a difference from bisexuality in this regard. Some bisexual identified people state they happen to not be attracted to people outside the binary, ergo why those using the word "pansexual" feel the distinction helps them conveying a different meaning than the word "bisexual" may convey. Another part of the community thinks the distinction between the two words is futile, since many people identifying as bisexual actually feel attraction to people of more genders than just men and women.

[Guest]

Seems pretty good. *gives my thumbs up to these change drafts*

[Robin L]

Or maybe

In reality, bisexuals can feel attraction to a variety of genders, but different from pansexuality, bisexuality is only to two genders

[qwair]

Or maybe

In reality, bisexuals can feel attraction to a variety of genders, but different from pansexuality, bisexuality is only to two genders

Again, wrong for at least some bisexuals.

I think it's pretty confusing to try to meld bisexuality in that way.

For one thing, bi- pretty clearly means "two", not "two or more". When my bicycle had three wheels, it was called a tricycle instead

For another thing, I'd wager 99.99~% of the people who use the term bisexuality ARE indeed using it to refer to male and female, specifically

I'm going to take that wager ;) Especially after knowing the positions of some major bisexual organisations... You might want, instead of assuming, to actually read what actual bisexuals have to say about their own identity.

@Cookie

Nothing in the suggestion is wrong, in my opinion. Maybe someone thinks that the distinction is futile, I'm not one of them. The fact that two words overlap in meaning is pretty normal in my view.

I would simply go with:

Bisexuality is the sexual orientation describing people who are attracted both to their own gender and to other genders. Some people reserve the word bisexual to people who are attracted solely to men and women, but not to non-binary identified people, others disagree. Part of the LGBT community uses the word "pansexual" to specifically emphasize attraction to all possible genders, including non-binary genders.

Pansexuality is the sexual orientation describing people who are attracted to all genders, including non-binary genders, or for which genders are an irrelevant factor in sexual attraction. The term is sometimes used to resolve ambiguities in the term 'bisexuality', which some people understand as being attracted solely to men and women, and not to non-binary genders.

[Member54880]

I would simply go with:

Bisexuality is the sexual orientation describing people who are attracted both to their own gender and to other genders. Some people reserve the word bisexual to people who are attracted solely to men and women, but not to non-binary identified people, others disagree. Part of the LGBT community uses the word "pansexual" to specifically emphasize attraction to all possible genders, including non-binary genders.

Pansexuality is the sexual orientation describing people who are attracted to all genders, including non-binary genders, or for which genders are an irrelevant factor in sexual attraction. The term is sometimes used to resolve ambiguities in the term 'bisexuality', which some people understand as being attracted solely to men and women, and not to non-binary genders.

I use that definition of bisexual too, because I've heard of bisexuals being accused of reinforcing the gender binary just for their sexual orientation! *facepalm* People who are attracted to 3+, but not all gender identities could be considered bisexual under that definition, and having the 'bi' meaning 'two categories; same and other gender' makes sense. Of course, it's up to them to determine if bisexual, pansexual or polysexual fits them best.

Here's a related thread: http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/90240-whats-the-difference-between-pan-and-bi/

[Philip027]

You might want, instead of assuming, to actually read what actual bisexuals have to say about their own identity.

Not assuming. From everything that I've seen, I can tell most people actually do not operate outside of the gender binary unless they actually are outside of the gender binary themselves. For most people, only two genders exist because that's all they know about. That doesn't leave a whole lot of different potential options for bisexuality, in the minds of these people. It could also be that with regard to bisexuality, people aren't even taking gender into account, they are referring to physical sex, in which case the vast majority are going to automatically fall in that binary.

Still going to call it etymologically incorrect to use bi- to refer to "two or more" though. It very clearly means two. If you want to say that you're attracted to "my own gender + other genders" yet do not want to be as all-encompassing as pansexuality is, I would suggest a different term.

[Guest]

Still going to call it etymologically incorrect to use bi- to refer to "two or more" though. It very clearly means two. If you want to say that you're attracted to "my own gender + other genders" yet do not want to be as all-encompassing as pansexuality is, I would suggest a different term.

Well, there already is the term polysexual for that... but it's a rather unfortunate choice for being extremely easy to mistake with/get conflated with polyamory, which means something else entirely.

[Philip027]

Well, there already is the term polysexual for that... but it's a rather unfortunate choice for being extremely easy to mistake with/get conflated with polyamory, which means something else entirely.

Yeah, and asexuals get confused with amoebas/plants/sponges (and celibates) all the time, but hasn't stopped us from getting rebranded <_<

[Guest member25959]

I like the responses so far, I ought to do this more often... the quote is from the bisexuality article. Okay lets try and rewrite this thing, maybe a combination of the proposals?

Bisexuality is the sexual orientation describing people who are attracted both to their own gender and to other genders. Some people reserve the word bisexual to people who are attracted solely to men and women, but not to non-binary identified people, others disagree. Part of the LGBT community uses the word "pansexual" to specifically emphasize attraction to all possible genders, including non-binary genders

There's some amount of disagreement regarding whether or not "bisexual" means attracted to "men and women" (people identifying inside the gender binary system) or if it includes other genders outside the binary (so not only two genders as the word would suggest). Parts of the LGBT community use the word "pansexual" to describe attraction to all genders, and "bisexual" for attraction to only men and women: some bisexuals state they happen to not be attracted to people outside the binary, ergo why they feel the distinction helps them conveying a different meaning than the word "pansexual" conveys. Another part of the community thinks the distinction between the two words is futile, since many people identifying as bisexual actually feel attraction to people of more genders than just men and women.

Something along those lines, anyone want to mess around with this? For the "pansexual" page I'm thinking of using Ith's draft or maybe qwair's or both? Just a reminder that anyone can edit these articles with an account o.o