Transgender vs. "agender"

[GirlInside]

Welcome, tglynn! Have some !

It's nice to see another MTF TG here... :D

[complete..finally]

Not quite sure how you define transgendered, so I can only say that I am a MTF crossdresser. I love doing girly things waaaaaay more than doing guy things. Have the compulsive need to shop, love sensuous fabric on my skin, detest body hair and would be very happy presenting as a woman in public but without surgery or hormones.

[mort paradis]

Ok, so I know this is an old thread now, but I have a question.

I know that some people here identify as agender. I've also heard neutrois. So, what is the difference between agender and neutrois? Or is it the same thing with just a different name?

Thanks!

~conri

[captain planet]

I just wanted to say I'm a female-to-male transsexual...I'm so surprised that there are so many others here.

[Parth]

Agender is one without gender. Neutrois is an agendered person that would actively like to look genderless and sexless. Eg as a neutrois, I am happy without breasts and am resisting the taking of hormones recommended to me because of that.

[queerunity]

Agender is one without gender. Neutrois is an agendered person that would actively like to look genderless and sexless. Eg as a neutrois, I am happy without breasts and am resisting the taking of hormones recommended to me because of that.

I haven't heard the term Agender but it sounds interesting. Not sure how it is different than androgyny though.

[Kelly]

I just wanted to say I'm a female-to-male transsexual...I'm so surprised that there are so many others here.

I am surprised, too. But AVEN has a lot of TS people, and it seems most (over half, I believe) are FtM.

I have an idea that there may be some possible link between being A and TS. Most TS's are not A and most A's are not TS, but still, there is enough overlap to make me think about relationships of A and TS etiology.

Anyway, welcome.

[queerunity]

I just wanted to say I'm a female-to-male transsexual...I'm so surprised that there are so many others here.

I am surprised, too. But AVEN has a lot of TS people, and it seems most (over half, I believe) are FtM.

I have an idea that there may be some possible link between being A and TS. Most TS's are not A and most A's are not TS, but still, there is enough overlap to make me think about relationships of A and TS etiology.

Anyway, welcome.

my guess is many trans people who have not transitioned are uncomfortable with sexuality because they are uncomfortable with their bodies. id imagine after they transition they would resume a healthy sex life. not all but probably many.

[pikku]

Agender is one without gender. Neutrois is an agendered person that would actively like to look genderless and sexless. Eg as a neutrois, I am happy without breasts and am resisting the taking of hormones recommended to me because of that.

I haven't heard the term Agender but it sounds interesting. Not sure how it is different than androgyny though.

I'm pretty sure its somewhat of a subset of androgyny.

Why need the subsets?

Well, agender is more of not having a gender, rather than being both or in between (bigendered, is it?).

(I'm not too sure about the validity of my explanation...)

[ratatosk_lemur]

I just wanted to say I'm a female-to-male transsexual...I'm so surprised that there are so many others here.

I am surprised, too. But AVEN has a lot of TS people, and it seems most (over half, I believe) are FtM.

I have an idea that there may be some possible link between being A and TS. Most TS's are not A and most A's are not TS, but still, there is enough overlap to make me think about relationships of A and TS etiology.

Anyway, welcome.

my guess is many trans people who have not transitioned are uncomfortable with sexuality because they are uncomfortable with their bodies. id imagine after they transition they would resume a healthy sex life. not all but probably many.

I have a transsexual friend who had SRS about a year ago, and she said that one of the main ways in which it improved her life was that before surgery, she had been homoromantic but asexual, and that a couple of months after it, she was finally becoming interested in having sex. So at least in some cases, being pre-op/non-op may be linked to asexuality in transsexuals.

[ratatosk_lemur]

Agender is one without gender. Neutrois is an agendered person that would actively like to look genderless and sexless. Eg as a neutrois, I am happy without breasts and am resisting the taking of hormones recommended to me because of that.

I haven't heard the term Agender but it sounds interesting. Not sure how it is different than androgyny though.

As I understand it, androgyny means considering one's self male and female at the same time, or male or female depending on the situation or day.

Agender means considering one's self not to have a gender, and thus not to be male or female.

Agender is one without gender. Neutrois is an agendered person that would actively like to look genderless and sexless. Eg as a neutrois, I am happy without breasts and am resisting the taking of hormones recommended to me because of that.

I would prefer to look genderless and sexless, but don't actually do much about it, because in my case looking sexless is probably impossible lots of electrolysis, among other things, and I'm not entirely sure what it would mean to look genderless (though I'd be interested in advice on how to do this). Do I still count as neutrois?

[Shockwave]

My body is obviously male and I'm happy with it. I'm not a very masculine or feminine person though, and I don't really feel I relate to either gender. Every time I've taken a gender test I scored right in the middle.

[Sha'zar]

one 'label' i'm surprised hasn't turned up in this conversation is 'genderqueer'... it is mostly an umbrella term, and i use it to 'label' my gender... for those unfamiliar w/ the term and/or those who want to read more here is the wikipedia link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

personally, i identify as transgendered, but not transsexual (that is, i don't believe i'm gender dysphoric)... i believe i would be significantly happier if i had a female body, but i think i have learned to deal with it...

[Kelly]

As I understand it, androgyny means considering one's self male and female at the same time, or male or female depending on the situation or day.

That makes sense. Andro, from the Greek, meaning male, and gyn, from the Greek meaning female.

Agender means considering one's self not to have a gender, and thus not to be male or female.

Yes; again, a from the Greek, meaning without.

[GirlInside]

personally, i identify as transgendered, but not transsexual (that is, i don't believe i'm gender dysphoric)... i believe i would be significantly happier if i had a female body, but i think i have learned to deal with it...

So are you a woman in a man's body like me? I'm not so sure I understand.

[Sha'zar]

So are you a woman in a man's body like me? I'm not so sure I understand.

my personal gender is a little more complicated than that... i consider myself somewhere in the middle of the gender spectrum (androgynous), but i exhibit many stereotypically feminine traits... as i stated before, i think i would feel more comfortable in a female body, but i don't think transitioning is necessary for me, at least at this point in my life... any further questions, feel free to PM me...

oh, and you may want to check out T-Vox... it is a site similar to this one that supports the Transexual/Intersexed/Genderqueer & Questioning community (as well as separate boards for supporting family & friends)

[AVENCakes]

Most people here who mention anything about gender don't seem to have a gender identity one way or the other. I'd like to know who here is actually a woman in a man's body or the other way around--and why we get so many more "agendered" people (I don't know if that word exists) than transgendered people.

I'm FtM in the sense that I'm transitioning, but I'm somewhere between neither and male in terms of gender.

[mumbleberry]

.

[Lunacy]

I'm biologically female and I wouldn't mind it at all if it weren't for the fact that I'm constantly reminded of my gender by other people. Mentally, I consider myself gender-neutral, but that's more because I don't like to fit in a box.

I wouldn't say I'm completely female or completely male; then again I don't think many people completely fit into a gender stereotype, unless they force themselves to be like that. I think that a lot of people pretend to be someone they're not just to conform to their gender. Society tells us that 'feminine' characteristics are being emotional, caring, sensitive, liking shopping, makeup, romantic love, etc. while the 'male' characteristic are being ambitious, intellectual, strong-willed, confident, and liking physical activity and work. So if a woman like these things, she's called a 'tomboy' because she doesn't conform. I think it's stupid. If I like the things that are usually associated with boys, then those things should also be considered feminine since I like them and I'm biologically female. I should be able to say i'm feminine without conforming to what people call 'feminine'. Stupid gender roles....

Very often, I find myself wishing I had an androgynous body just so that guys wouldn't remind me of my gender all the time, by looking at me in a sexual way and frequently making sexual comments. It makes me uncomfortable with my body. I have no use for it. I don't need sex, so I don't need a gender either.

[Blueflare]

I'm so bored of gender.

[Kelly]

Stupid gender roles....

;) *agrees*

*tries not to stuff people into boxes*

I don't need sex, so I don't need a gender either.

Good point.

[Dame du Lac]

My body is obviously male and I'm happy with it. I'm not a very masculine or feminine person though, and I don't really feel I relate to either gender. Every time I've taken a gender test I scored right in the middle.

This is me, except female rather than male.

As a child I was sometimes called a tomboy because I ran around and was very active. But I also wore dresses, skirts, played with dolls, wrote stories and other stereotypical girls things. On the other hand I played with cars, wore shorts, trousers, physically fought with my brother and played games with both girls and boys. In my teens and twenties I sometimes wished I was flat-chested and narrow-hipped and I wore loose-fitting clothes that didn't show-off my curves. I also sometimes wondered what it would be like to have no gender. But now that I'm older and much more confident in myself, I am happy with my very feminine body. I consider two things when I buy clothes: a) are they practical for me? Do they have pockets, will they keep me warm/cool etc? and b) do they fit me and suit my body shape? I sometimes have short hair and sometimes let it grow long. I have been through periods of wearing make-up everyday and periods of not wearing any make-up at all. I am myself and if I don't fit the sex/gender stereotype of a woman that other people hold, well that's just tough.

Of course, like Lunacy has pointed out, there are times when I am treated certain ways because I am female. And that is annoying and the reason I spent time when I was younger wishing I was less feminine in my body (I don't have a pretty or girly face). But I would rather just be me and live in a world where people are who they are rather than feel they have to hide themselves or their bodies because they don't fit a stereotype. I think constantly being concerned with your body, how feminine/masculine you are and whether you fit societies expectations is not just an issue for people who are transgendered/transexual or intersexed. It is a problem for everyone and can be seen in the massive numbers of people who dislike their bodies, who spend thousands on cosmetic surgery, or spend hours at the gym, taking supplements and steroids.

[AVENCakes]

I don't need sex, so I don't need a gender either.

Good point.

That doesn't make sense to me. Gender's not sex-specific. People make a lot of assumptions based on gender and even treat people differently for it, even if it's not on purpose. Ladies first, Don't hit a girl, boys don't cry, men are only after one thing, the list of things that people are taught gender controls is endless and unrelated to sexual activity. And, yeah, gender roles suck majorly.

Also- sex applies more to sex (guess who hates that homonym). The parts you have would likely effect sex more than identity.

[~shinigami~]

I think I could probably discribe myself as "agender."

Even as a kid, gender roles have always confused me. In sociology class, I get into arguments with my teacher about the validity of gender roles - everyone else seems to agree with his assessment, but I've never understood how people can assume things based on someone's gender.

There have been days when I really wished I didn't have breasts. I don't want to be male, but being female has certainly pissed me off more than once.

Another oddity - some days I just really want to wear short skirts and get all dressy. Other days I want to deck out in my military gear so no one can tell I'm female. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it confuses the hell out of me.

[DarthBismarck]

...deck out in my military gear so no one can tell I'm female. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it confuses the hell out of me.

You'd honestly be amazed how often I've run across that in my life. I hadn't realized that it could be confusing at all. The way I looked at it was that it's like deciding which pair of shoes you want to wear, and has about as much effect once the choice is made. One day, you wake up and decide to go with high heels, the next you're going for hiking boots. All it means is that you've got a much larger taste in clothes than most peopple I know.

Unless I'm completely wrong and someone's about to correct me...

[Dame du Lac]

... nope! I can't see anything unusual about wanting to wear one type of outfit one day and a completely different type another day.

[Sammie]

gender is a social concept, a way of describing who we are. Obviously, those who are aware of this may feel that neither of the two genders describes them well and choose to abandon the concept.

Few would define themselves as completely their own gender or completely transgender, choosing even to change their body. Most will just be somewhere in between genders, and if that's the case, why use the concept at all?

[quarridors]

Just to point something out that a friend of mine explained, being transgendered is different than being transexual. Believing you are a man trapped in a woman's body, for example, would be a transexual. You want to be the opposite sex than your biological sex, and you generally identify with the gender socially associated with that particular sex and not the gender that has been assigned to you because of your sex.

Refusing to identify with the narrow bianary gender system and identifing with being a man or a woman is transgendered. I'm biologically female and am perfectly happy that way. But I'm transgendered becaues I hate boxes. I identify my gender as hard andro.

It sounds like youre wondering why we get so many transgendered people here and not transexual people. The term agendered is interesting, but transgendered is the actual word from my understanding.

'Transgender/ed' is the umbrella term, transsexuals are transgender as are androgynes, crossdressers etc. This is why inclusive LGBT organisations only have one T -- 'transgender' covers all people who transcend or transgress society's rules for gender, be they crossing from one binary gender to an other, wearing the clothes of the other gender role or throwing binary gender out the window and identifying as something else entirely.

The term you're looking for that means "Refusing to identify with the narrow binary gender system and identifying with being a man or a woman is transgendered" is 'genderqueer' which would be defined as 'identifying as something other than simply male or female'. Although 'refusing' sort of implies that gender identity is a choice, which isn't what most transgender people think, especially transsexuals.

I haven't seen 'agendered' used widely for genderlessness before, I have seen 'non-gender', 'ungendered', 'neuter', 'neutrois' and 'unisex', generally though this tends to be identified as 'androgyne' which is taken to be either a mixture of both or neither. It tends to be that if you don't feel gendered, you would present this by hiding gender cues or presenting a gender neutral appearance -- this is still visually androgynous.

HTH,

Nat

[Parth]

gender is a social concept, a way of describing who we are. Obviously, those who are aware of this may feel that neither of the two genders describes them well and choose to abandon the concept.

Few would define themselves as completely their own gender or completely transgender, choosing even to change their body. Most will just be somewhere in between genders, and if that's the case, why use the concept at all?

As much as I would like to believe it is purely a social construct, transsexuals, I find, completely contradict this. My theory is that some people are born without gender identity and can have their gender shaped by society, or abandon it (like me), but some people are born with a distinctly female mind and some with a distinctly male mind, and transsexuals prove that sometimes it does not match their body.

[Parth]

Another oddity - some days I just really want to wear short skirts and get all dressy. Other days I want to deck out in my military gear so no one can tell I'm female. Does this make sense to anyone? Because it confuses the hell out of me.

^_^