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[Medical] MtN - The Short End of the Stick


Lambda Corvus

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Lambda Corvus

Within the past while, I have been curious about the process of transitioning from being male sexed to roughly neutral. I am still wondering if what I am curious about for myself is at all possible. My curiosity was piqued when I came across this article on Neutrois Nonsense, and recent happenings involving dysphoria caused me to speculate further.

In particular, this was of interest to me:

Genital Surgery

There are some “neutralizing” genital surgery options for MT* people.

An orchiectomy removes the testicles and scrotum sack (see Open Minded Health again for a more info on this surgery). The primary benefit of an orchiectomy would be to remove endogenous testosterone production, so you do not require an anti-androgen anymore and there will be no further masculinization of your body. The side effect, as we saw before, is that you will need to be on HRT for the rest of your life, and this will most likely be estrogen (which can be low-dose). There is also the aesthetic benefit of less bulk, which some people seek as well.

A penectomy removes the penis as well as the scrotal sack. It is sometimes considered a full castration (search for “eunuch” and you’ll find much more on this). This would essentially leave your genital area neutral. But one potential complication is long-term urinary problems. From the self-reports I’ve gathered, this is quite difficult to obtain, primarily because surgeons will insist on building a vagina, and are incredulous or uncomfortable of leaving this area neutral and devoid of genitalia (even if it’s what you want). There are one or two cases I’ve read about who have gotten a neutral or “nullification” option, but I don’t know the details.

This is where my knowledge officially stops in terms of bottom surgeries. However, I am going to make a big assumption that there are other viable options which a skilled surgeon could be willing to explore. The catch is in finding that open minded skilled surgeon.

To me, it seems like MtN people really have a different set of challenges to deal with, in comparison with FtN people. By sheer nature of how the different sex hormones work, a MtN person would need to run the risk of growing breasts or keep their testicles, which is something that would not seem too appealing to me.

Then there is the reluctance of surgeons to leave their patients with no genitals. From my research, just poking around the internet, it seems this assessment is valid. I wonder why this is so. My speculation is that it has to do with sex (the act) and its importance in the broader culture. What would the perspective of the larger outside society, uninformed of gender issues, look like? I fear it would be something like this:


"It would be OMGTheWorstThingEver to leave a man without the means to engage in sexual activity or stimulation of any kind. Men are supposed to be virile and sex-obsessed. This man is being made into a woman, so we want him to still experience sex, which is the best thing ever."

Why, do you speculate, are surgeons often hesitant to give the patent what they want, and instead prefer to construct unwanted and unneeded sex organs?

My ideal gender-sex solution decision tree (musing, at this time) is:
1. No trace of external genitalia,
2. Testes either disconnected (think vasectomy) and permanently relocated
into remnants of the inguinal canals, or removed;
A. Disconnected and relocated:
i. Testosterone still produced; continue to deal with facial hair and
obnoxiously harsh voice.
B. Removed:
i. Become dependent on oestrogen for remainder of life,

ii. If breasts develop, wait until finished developing, then mastectomy.

Except neither of these are ideal, and may not even be possible. It does seem to be a heavy compromise for MtN people who want a body totally free of sex characteristics. Thoughts? Experiences?

EDIT: Changed wording. I am sorry to anyone who I have offended. I did not wish to imply FtN people have it any easier than MtNs. So incredibly sorry.

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mmmm I never thought of that this way........ as a FtN things are easier: mastectomy and histerectomy. keep the ovaries and the hormones, job done.

can you remove genitals but start Testosterone like FtM do so you won't have to deal with breast development? maybe low doses won't give too much secondary characteristics...... I guess the biggest problem would be someone to allow you that. is that the reason why you were considering oestrogen? what happens to cis-guys who have their testicle removed for health issues?

maybe you can convince someone to do that.......

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I had a friend in middle school who had already grown DD breasts, and they were still getting bigger.

Well when she was 15 and ridiculed at high school her mother took her to the doctor's office to talk about a breast reduction. Not only did that male doctor ask why and discourage it but two subsequent female doctors also had the same response.

When they finally got it done the surgeon was questioning them from the minute they walked in to the minute he started cutting.

A friend of mine in college went to get breast implants- not a single question a part from "What type?" and "How big?"

Society, humanity as a whole is hyper-sexualized. We are, as a people, obsessed. The idea that someone might not want to use their junk, or might not be as physical as the whole is preposterous and cause for alarm. "What do you mean you don't want huge boobs that are already causing serious back and reputation problems?" or "What do you mean you don't like sex? You're a man, of course you like sex! Look at that dick, that means you love sex! There's no such thing as asexual or agendered people!"

It's crazy for a lot of people to think about others just have no interest in sex. We are just starting to accept that some people don't match their assigned sex and that they want their body to match their brain. But saying you don't have an assigned sex AT ALL and you want your body to match that? That's just crazy, that's a whole new thing that really just can't be true. There aren't even any really big name, important movies about it! How can it exist if there are no movies?! WITCH CRAFT! (It's a joke, no serious anger or offense meant, I know many people are not this ignorant)

I think we just evolved with sex as one of our biggest urges, one of our biggest needs and to hear that someone not only doesn't want it, but doesn't want to be identified by their sexual organs is really crazy. It is very wrong, and it shouldn't be as big a deal as it is but you have to understand where they're coming from. They're worried, they know how pervasive sex is in our society and they don't want to perform an operation only to have you regret it later on in life. Things change a lot, preferences and identities change all the time, so even the most liberal and accepting doctor might be hesitant to do the surgery. It's an understandable view point. Is it necessarily a correct one? No. But understanding is half the battle.

It sounds like a big deal, with a lot of thought required before taking it on. But if you want it, if you've thought about it for long enough to know you're not going to regret it and it's going to make you happy? Go after it. It can be done, and if it's what will make you happy and feel at home in your body it's worth the effort and it's worth the fight. Hopefully if more people get it, and more people talk about it, and more people make a big deal about it, it will be more well known and start to be accepted and taken in stride.

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Calligraphette_Coe

Except neither of these are ideal, and may not even be possible. It does seem to be a heavy compromise for MtN people who want a body totally free of sex characteristics. Thoughts? Experiences?

If you pursue this field of inquiry long enough, you'll probably be shocked to find that people you thought should be your allies are against neutrosis. Some quietly but adamantly so, because they think it reflects on them and the ability for people to get SRS. The argument they'll use against you is that of your having a secret amputation fetish and that they think people --- mostly MtNs, you'll also find out--- are delusional. Because this results in diminished capacity for a person to give informed consent, it's a winning strategy with no blowback for them-- game, set, match. Few surgeons will give you the time of day because the narrative will be that you're trying to remove healthy tissue. Besides which, "Everyone knows", one has to be one sex/gender or the other.

I remember back in the nineties, there were a few high profile post-ops on Usenet who were trying to get a surgeon defrocked for performing orchies on people they considered to be NOT women or with no intent on having SRS.

Two other things: bodies seem to need one sex hormone to prevent bone de-calcification and other maladies, so that's another reason why they think one has to be one or the other. The other is that surgeons don't have a psychiatrist's note to back them up on this surgery (there are no protocols in place that I know of, that may have changed, but I doubt it), so they are going to be hyper reluctant to operate and chance 'Buyer's Remorse' down the road and get sued by their own patients.

I don't agree with any of this except for the health issues (those are easily researched), I'm just explaining what I saw while being basically given the Androgynous Bum's Rush out of the community.

Your Mileage May Vary.....

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It is a binary world. But, I am sure there are some surgeons without scruples, perhaps in the plastic surgery industry where they are more inclined to satisfy a patients vanity requests, or maybe try researching medical tourism. Is it possible to alternate between the hormones to minimise the effect of either of them? Or take small doses of both concurrently?

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the first question i had after reading your post was the same as MXC: can male genitalia not be removed entirely and then be replaced with a lower dose of testosterone/estrogen just as AFABs would need testosterone or estrogen after a complete hysterectomy? forgive me for my ignorance as i haven't really researched things on the AMAB side of things and i know nothing of anatomy or biology. it seems to me like ovaries and testies serve very similar purposes in the human body, one just happens to be internal and the other external..... but perhaps this is my ignorance talking.

and as MXC also said, i suppose that finding a surgeon willing to do the procedure would be a problem, but i like to think that as (slowly) more and more surgeons are becoming genderqueer friendly in addition to trans* friendly, that the possibility of such a surgery as this is also slowly growing. i hope this to be the case not just for AMAB who wish to have their genitalia removed but for everyone as even getting a surgeon to remove what they consider to be healthy organs from AFAB people is also difficult. there's also the progress needed for those who dream of having an entirely sexless body all together involving reconstruction of certain things rather than just the removal of things.

progress comes slowly, but it does still come....

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There are some things that makes this topic troublesome.

  • What letter should it be on passports ? And when(see below) ?
  • Why does it sound like a girl when you pee(male) ?
  • How can you sit with crossed legs for that long time(male) ?
  • How do you feel about BJ(male) ?
  • Why don´t you have any ST(female) ?
  • You don´t seem to have a bra on(female) ?
  • How did your body react to the chemo(female) ?

Step 1:
Sterilization, but still able to have sex :
Male : Orchiectomy+sack
Female : Oophorectomy(ovaries) Hysterectomy(uterus)
Step 2 :
Topsurgery, making both genders look same at the top.Still able to have sex.
Male : Nipple removal(to avoid breast to develope)
Females : Mastectomy.
Step 3 :
Bottomsurgery, sex is difficult, but can be done.
Male : Penectomy
Female : Radical vaginectomy

@ Queer As Cat : progress comes slowly, but it does still come....

True see below :

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/52633-transwhatevers-of-aven/?view=findpost&p=1971026

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Lambda Corvus

Thanks to all who responded so far. It has been interesting to hear your replies and consider your thoughts.

mmmm I never thought of that this way........ as a FtN things are easier: mastectomy and histerectomy. keep the ovaries and the hormones, job done.

can you remove genitals but start Testosterone like FtM do so you won't have to deal with breast development? maybe low doses won't give too much secondary characteristics...... I guess the biggest problem would be someone to allow you that. is that the reason why you were considering oestrogen? what happens to cis-guys who have their testicle removed for health issues?

maybe you can convince someone to do that.......

I hadn't thought about the cis-guys who have their testicles removed for health reasons. If the medical profession is consistent, then surely they would be placed on regular testosterone dosage, in order to avoid the bone health problems which we are told will occur without. I suppose that, even though testosterone continues to masculinise, an adult male will have already experienced the full effects of it.

<...>

It sounds like a big deal, with a lot of thought required before taking it on. But if you want it, if you've thought about it for long enough to know you're not going to regret it and it's going to make you happy? Go after it. It can be done, and if it's what will make you happy and feel at home in your body it's worth the effort and it's worth the fight. Hopefully if more people get it, and more people talk about it, and more people make a big deal about it, it will be more well known and start to be accepted and taken in stride.

As of this point in time, it is more of a curiosity -- judging whether or not it can be done and what (if any) I would want done. Perhaps nothing will come out of it, depending on if strong dysphoria turns out to be a regular occurrence. I agree, there is much we can do to increase knowledge and acceptance of MtN as a valid identity. In a way, it is parallel to acceptance of asexuality, being the possibility that some people do not experience sexual attraction and may never want it.

There are some things that makes this topic troublesome.

  • What letter should it be on passports ? And when(see below) ?
  • Why does it sound like a girl when you pee(male) ?
  • How can you sit with crossed legs for that long time(male) ?
  • How do you feel about BJ(male) ?
  • Why don´t you have any ST(female) ?
  • You don´t seem to have a bra on(female) ?
  • How did your body react to the chemo(female) ?

Step 1:
Sterilization, but still able to have sex :
Male : Orchiectomy+sack
Female : Oophorectomy(ovaries) Hysterectomy(uterus)
Step 2 :
Topsurgery, making both genders look same at the top.Still able to have sex.
Male : Nipple removal(to avoid breast to develope)
Females : Mastectomy.
Step 3 :
Bottomsurgery, sex is difficult, but can be done.
Male : Penectomy
Female : Radical vaginectomy

@ Queer As Cat : progress comes slowly, but it does still come....

True see below :

http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/52633-transwhatevers-of-aven/?view=findpost&p=1971026

I can understand the legal concerns with passports. What I can not understand is why it should be anyone's concern how a person sits or urinates, or does not wear a bra or not. I am confused about the chemo part. Can you please explain that? Thanks for the link, by the way. I remember reading that post a long time ago, so it was a refresher to see again.

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I am confused about the chemo part.Can you please explain that?

What I meant was.

How do you explain having no breast(Mastectomy) ? Cos cancer is the only ?! way for girl to loose them.

Another controversial part is actually cancer.Imagine being agender and wanting surgery, you´re denied.

Then several years later you are fighting for your life cos a bodypart that falls under the neutrois-umbrella is sick.

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Lambda Corvus

I must apologize for any offence my words may have caused. It has been brought to my attention that using "the short end of the stick" to describe MtN completely negates the experiences of FtN, implying that it is easier for the latter to transition than it is the former. This was not my intent. I do not in any way believe that it is more or less difficult for MtN people to transition, in comparison to FtN. Rather, what I was trying to express is that, perhaps, MtN people face different challenges than FtN people do.

Again, I sincerely apologize. I am so sorry to any people I have offended. It's probably best to let this thread die.

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Janus the Fox

Interesting article, at least I'm more informed. The idea is an intriguing one to me, though hormone replacement to achieve a feminised less genderized look and feel is what I want, there's big downsides I suppose with individuals that have had hormonal issues in the past. I find that I have a poor medical history already and messing around with hormones is probably not in my best interests.

Eh... Surgery is another thing... I feel it's not worth it, due to the unary tract problems for which I've had a history of. I've had enough surgery down there to achieve proper functioning already.

Saying that... I feel that the body is in some form neutral from diet and lifestyle changes already. Like softer skin, limiting body hair and limiting muscle visibility I've achieved without massively drastic actions.

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If you've never been to the Eunuch Archive, I'd recommending taking a quick peek. There's a lovely wealth of awesome and practical resources hidden between the lines, and many years of it.

Every once in a while I hear about someone who had a MtN surgical process. If anything this has been done before, whereas the reverse has never been done (think complete reconstruction of external genitalia to have a smooth look). I try not to think about it because the only emotion it conjures up is pain.

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If you've never been to the Eunuch Archive, I'd recommending taking a quick peek. There's a lovely wealth of awesome and practical resources hidden between the lines, and many years of it.

Every once in a while I hear about someone who had a MtN surgical process. If anything this has been done before, whereas the reverse has never been done (think complete reconstruction of external genitalia to have a smooth look). I try not to think about it because the only emotion it conjures up is pain.

My nick on Eunuch Archive is : Royal Creative

I´ve used the site to find a "cure" for my erections.The method that I´ve used for quite some time, has made it useless (sexual act).

And it´s true that there are stories about post-op´s.What I understand is that the surgery, in some cases, is done because of damage they´ve have done to themselves.

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