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Disney's Frozen - Elsa and Asexuality (MAJOR Spoilers Follow)


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Are you people seriously debating racism and culture in a CARTOON????

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Astrochelonian

Are you people seriously debating racism and culture in a CARTOON????

Welcome to the Internet! Where we have the entirety of human knowledge at our fingertips and use this power to argue with strangers and look at cat videos! How is this any different from analyzing the mental states of sitcom characters?

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not_normal

I never thought of it that way, but it does make sense. I remember the first time I watched Frozen I liked Elsa the best because I relate to her. I too have spent most of my life concealing who I am. (Pretending to be interested in men, pretending to dream of the man I marry, pretending to want a baby). Now, I have come out a bit. I have let myself accept myself. I am having trouble coming clean about my asexuality to my parents. I fear they will tell me I'll grow out of it or whatever. NO! This is who I am, but I am scared they won't accept me.

For the record, a lot of songs and movies bore me. I can't stand the sappy romance stuff that happens IN EVERY SINGLE MOVIE AND EVERY SINGLE SONG! Don't even get me started on books. I mean, I love to read, but I hate teen fiction because of that. Can't we have something that isn't centered around love and sex? That's why I love Let It Go so much. It's about accepting who you are, and I love that.

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WoodwindWhistler

Um, she didn't shake it off after the song. She was still shaky and nervous when Ana came, to see her, and she wanted her gone as soon as possible because she thought the only way she wasn't going to be a danger to people was if she was alone. And then as soon as she learned she accidentally started the snowpocalypse she totally lost it. It was a struggle the whole way through until she saw how Ana stuck by her and gave her life for her at the end.

And I'm sorry, but that blog post about Frozen being racist is pretty damn laughable. I read the original story, and Hans Christian Anderson gave just as little a damn about representing the Saami as Disney did, because it's a fantasy story that really has nothing to do with race. Arendelle is a fictional place that takes place in a fantasy version of Norway. And I find it hilarious that the vast majority of the rage against Frozen on behalf of the Saami culture is from US bloggers, while the Saami themselves are for the most part like "uh, whatever". They hired a Saami musician to write the traditional yoik that is played throughout the movie, and the movie was shown at a Saami film festival earlier this year.

Culturally insensitive? Possibly. Deeply racist? Don't be ridiculous.

Yes, she did. She was confident and elated at the end of the song. She was smiling when Anna first stepped in. She didn't present anxiety again until Anna began pressing her. She didn't even explicitly express regret for leaving her behind or intending to leave her alone for the rest of her life (though I'll give you that you could easily pick up that it's implied) or apologize for lying to Anna for years.

She was also concerned at the beginning Anna was going to make a mistake by marrying the first guy she ever met (yeah, that's sort of a HUGE one!) but then she makes no mention of that worry, instead just brushing it off.

The continuity and genuinity is lacking.

So turning the reindeer, which is practically sacred to the Saami, into a cheap laugh wasn't racist? Making the sole character based on PoC white isn't racist? Methinks your radar is out of adjustment. Here's a Tumblr blog with an actual Saami person tearing to shreds the mistakes they've made with Kristoff's outfit and expressing disgust at cultural appropriation that results, for your edification. Disney has mounds of resources at its disposal. There's no reason to get any of this wrong. They have a global audience and influence. With great power comes . . .

http://laeta-sci.tumblr.com/post/83161768807/same-anon-here-i-know-you-did-a-comparison-way-back-i

But I think everyone is being way too hard on the parents. True, their actions are what led to Elsa turning into a wreck, but it wasn't malicious.

I think they just didn't know how to deal with Elsa's powers anymore than she did and they did whatever they could to keep both of their girls safe. Mind you, I think they just should've left her with the trolls for a while because obviously Grandpappy knew about those powers, but then there wouldn't be a movie, I guess.

The parents may have been stupid and caused the main conflict of the movie, but they were just being parents. I don't think they should keep being crucified for that.

I agree! The troll's magic image of villagers attacking her implied that fear FROM OTHER PEOPLE because of her powers would be Elsa's biggest problem. So the parents naturally kept others from knowing so she could learn to carefully control her powers.The trolls gave them no other instructions besides that. So if Elsa's powers were peaking when she felt strong emotions, logically the solution would be to reign in her emotions. Some might argue (I included) that learning not to let your emotions completely govern you is one of the main goals of life in general. Meditation is often touted as giving you perspective on your own feelings.

Heck, if her parents had lived, and she didn't go through that early emotional turmoil, this approach may have worked!

If anything the trolls were the ones that didn't do enough to ensure that they understood what they were saying. (then again, the trolls don't seem to recognize Anna when she comes to them as a teen, or even remember the incident. And they supposedly taught Kristoff as "love experts" that no one should go head over heels for someone they just met, yet they encourage him to do that exact thing when Anna waltzes into the picture. I think the TROLLS have a few screws loose, certainly not the parents).

Actually, she was on edge the whole time, she was all "what are you doing here, you need to leave, you need to leave NOW" She thought the only way she was going to be happy and free was if she was completely alone. She may have thought she was okay, but she was wrong, that was the whole point.

And if the Saami haven't bitched about Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer yet, then I don't think they particularly care what people do with reindeer in children's cartoons.

Aaaaaand I'm going to have to disagree with you on the parents. While the goal was to get Elsa to control her emotions because they are quite clearly linked to her powers, their methods were wrong. Getting her to not feel anything and cutting her off from almost all human interaction only heightened her anxieties. If her parents lived it only would have put off the inevitable. Elsa never would have been able to overcome her anxieties and interact with people, let alone rule if she kept doing what her parents wanted her too.

​Smiling. Dreamy eyed.

Agitated later.

Just as I said.

Rudolph isn't a purposefully appropriated Saami symbol, dumbo. So I guess if you even refuse to accept that a Saami person even thinks this is all BS, you are indifferent to racism.

The parents were doing the best they could. When you have a child and someone presents you with an image of them being killed, get back to me on how you handle it.

I don't think you understand what that kind of thing does to a person. That's an absolutely visceral fear that all parents have. Funny that people can forget Mufasa's fear of losing his son so easily, and immediately condemn them.

And you forget that Elsa herself was visibly shaken by her own powers and outbursts, so that's added incentive. They have no idea how this works. If concealing emotion appeared to make it better, that's what they- all three of them- were going to do. Elsa wanted to protect her sister. She never objected to the method while she was young. Had she, I might see your case.

You can make no definite claims about what would have gone down had they lived, because no one knows. Anxiety is always helped by having supportive figures, be they friends or family. And if you think about it, the trolls had the opportunity to say "That isn't a good idea." Not a peep out of them. So, either they really don't know a whole lot about her magic, or human problems in general, (which like what I stated above, is completely possible) or it was a decent solution, or the best solution under the circumstances.

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Are you people seriously debating racism and culture in a CARTOON????

Hello, is this your first time on the internet? :)

Yeah this is apparently a minor controversy. Some American bloggers feel that Disney hates black people and Saami because they dared make a fantasy movie in a Scandanavian setting and didn't have a single POC in the main cast. Also something about Kristoff being a caricature of the Saami culture (his design is influenced by the Saami, not a representation. Honestly the only connection to the Saami is that he has a reindeer). And some people who probably couldn't even point Norway out on an unmarked map have been raging about how this is disrespectful to a culture they've never heard nor cared about until now. While the Saami really don't have a problem with the movie at all and in fact quite enjoy it because it's a great movie with a beautiful message, but why actually talk to the people in question when you can just rage about it on tumblr?

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WoodwindWhistler

Are you people seriously debating racism and culture in a CARTOON????

Hello, is this your first time on the internet? :)

Yeah this is apparently a minor controversy. Some American bloggers feel that Disney hates black people and Saami because they dared make a fantasy movie in a Scandanavian setting and didn't have a single POC in the main cast. Also something about Kristoff being a caricature of the Saami culture (his design is influenced by the Saami, not a representation. Honestly the only connection to the Saami is that he has a reindeer). And some people who probably couldn't even point Norway out on an unmarked map have been raging about how this is disrespectful to a culture they've never heard nor cared about until now. While the Saami really don't have a problem with the movie at all and in fact quite enjoy it because it's a great movie with a beautiful message, but why actually talk to the people in question when you can just rage about it on tumblr?

Cartoons are part of culture. The better question would be, why does a story that costs millions of dollars and months upon months of effort to bring an intent to fruition, and especially one that has such a widespread reach, maybe watched multiple times by children who relate to the characters, *not* considered part of culture and attitudes, and somehow immune to criticism?

I cited an actual Saami person taking issue with the appropriation, yet you still ignore it? I guess you probably didn't bother to read the whole thing, since it is kind of wall-of-text-ish. ^_^'

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I love frozen and I plan to watch it a few more times. Elsa is one of the most interesting Disney characters ever regardless of her sexual orientation or lack of one.

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Non-Verbal Sam

i like characters where sex and love isn't mentioned

sherlock: suspected homoromantic asexual

the doctor: panromantic grey-ace

elsa: is dealing with mental illness most of the time but there is a 2nd movie maybe

merida: shows no interest in relationships, just wants to ride with the wind in her hair, my fav disney/pixar movie

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I found this too and it made me happy. Not defining Elsa's sexuality was probably one of the best decisions they could've made.

I remember once finding a character that I could relate to in the way I related to Elsa, but then the author went and ruined that for me... *sigh*

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  • 1 month later...
Janus the Fox

Relevant Cinema Sin (spoilers)

Mostly off topic

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So getting back to the topic...

I don't know if Elsa is canonically asexual or not (probably not) but I think it would be neat if she was. "Let It Go" is just a great song to be able to relate to, not just for LGBT+, but for others who just feel different in a way for other reasons. It's the thing I like most about the film.

Oh, and it's NOT the first Disney film where sisterly/family relations is more important than romance, nor is it the first one where the princess doesn't need a man to save her or doesn't get married or where a main character is not bothered about finding romance etc. If you think it's really the first Disney film to do all that, you probably need to watch more Disney films because there are plenty of examples out there. (And not just Merida, although she's great, definitely!) Frozen just happens to be the first time people are paying attention, which is nice too I suppose.

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Mycroft is Yourcroft

Relevant Cinema Sin (spoilers)

Mostly off topic

I literally just watched that before coming here :o SPOOOOOOOOKY!

I didn't agree with his sin where he said that Kristoff should've had a relationship with Elsa though, just because of the ice thing. Yay for female empowerment! :D

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Skipper Valvoline

GUYS! GUYS! GUYS!

Okay, sorry, but this is like the PERFECT thread for me! Why? The same night that I first saw Frozen was also the night that I finally realized I was asexual.

Awesome coincidence or what??? I was so happy I was spinning around my room singing 'Let it Go'. That song also has a double meaning for me (and probably a lot of people) in 'letting it go' and embracing asexuality. And Elsa ROCKS she was my favorite character, and I appreciated that she didn't need some significant other in her life. So, this thread is amazing and sings home for me a lot. YES! :cake:

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I, too, saw Frozen shortly before realizing I was asexual! Even though I hadn't fully realized it yet the first time I saw the movie, I adored that Disney completely redefined the "act of true love" and didn't make a big deal out of Anna and Kristoff being a thing. And then once I did realize I was ace, I wondered if Elsa could possibly be asexual as well -- glad to know I'm not the only one who thought of this! The idea of an independent lead female character not needing romance to keep her happy, escpecially in a Disney movie, is really inspiring. If there is a sequel, hopefully they'll stay true to this (although realistically they probably won't).

I listened to "Let It Go" a lot when I was getting ready to come out because I identified with the message of embracing something you previously kept hidden. I love that song so much it's actually kind of ridiculous.

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Harry Osborn

I saw nothing but Disney ultimately pandering to what people have said they would want to see in a Disney film (and even then, not remarkably so--we already had a non-typical/saving princess character in Mulan, an intelligent/non-typical girlie character in Belle, a defiant strong-willed character in Jasmine, and a character who did not end up with her first love interest in Pocahontas, so I'm thinking anybody who thinks Frozen is anything unique has to be relatively young and painfully unaware of other Disney films). Anyway, Elsa doesn't have any love interest because it would drive the focus away from Anna (and her love interests/story). The story is really about Anna, after all (despite the misleading title). I don't think we can really speak of her sexual orientation (or lack of one) because the information is simply not there.

Elsa was also poorly thought out and rushed, with insufficient/inexplicable development (she was criminally incompetent as a monarch and never apologized for it despite the fact she would have killed all her kingdom if Anna hadn't intervened, but inexplicably somehow became a good ruler in the last 5 minutes of the film). This is totally Disney's fault, in that they backtracked on making her the villain (which is what she was set up to be--not Hans), but didn't bother to revise either of their stories, thus creating the inconvenience of having an unsympathetic non-villainous character (Elsa) and the Disney universe's most considerate villain (Hans: yes, an asshole to Anna, but hey he was at least responsible--he was handing out blankets, etc.)

So, since they didn't mean to intentionally subvert anything and the film was poorly thought out in its amended direction, I don't really think we can speak on what their intentions were (because evidently they don't even know). I find the film and its OST massively overrated, though not unpleasant.

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  • 5 months later...

I adore Frozen (to the point where people actually despair of me. I have a giant poster of Elsa on my wall. I don't care, I love Elsa), and while I admit it has many flaws, I personally see Elsa as asexual. I have done even before I identified as asexual myself. I also see Merida as asexual but because Merida is about 16 it's easier for people to brush her off as 'Aw, she'll grow out of it (No she will not, she is going to ride around the glen firing arrows and letting her beautiful red hair flow in the wind, thank you very much), whereas Elsa is 21 so it's harder to use that excuse (not that it stops people). I see Elsa as either aromantic or homoromantic, although I'm aware that will never happen in the sequel (maybe it's because Idina Menzel plays Maureen in Rent so I just want to see Elsa and another female character have a Take Me Or Leave Me face off, but that's just me). It's very open to interpretation, which is the beauty of it. I just personally see her as homoromantic asexual.

I mean mostly I'm a sucker for superpowers and snow and the ability to control any aspect of the weather so when it came to Elsa I was already lost. Frozen isn't the best representation of sibling relationships Disney has ever done though, it's taken me years to watch Lilo and Stitch again because Lilo and Nani broke my heart.

(I know this is an old thread, I just thought I'd add my 2p)

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Well, I've watched Frozen five times and still want to watch it a couple more times. I really took to it.

It's easily Disney's most progressive movie to date! And how could it not be:

7 Moments That Made 'Frozen' the most progressive Disney Movie Ever

Frozen did a lot of things right in subverting Love At First Sight and True Love's Kiss with the character Anna. She learned the mistake of rushing into things and in fact was able to save herself (no prince charming for this princess!) on her own with an act of true love for a family member, as opposed to true love solely being between prince and princess.

But I want to talk about Elsa. Elsa who hid away behind a door figuratively and literally for a good portion of her life. The ice powers are a clear cut metaphor for anything "different". While the door is a clear cut metaphor for hiding that "difference" away. She is at the very core, a woman who had to hide the best, or at the very least, a fundamental part of herself to fit in with society, to be accepted and not feared or hated. This struck home with the LGBTQ(lots of letters) community:

Will Elsa from "Frozen" become a role model for LGBT youth?

Due to this, people are claiming Elsa as a closet lesbian, which is not entirely a far jump to make given the parallelism with the coming out experience you find in the subtext of her arc.

This jump to call attention to Elsa's sexuality at all disappoints me, however. Here's why.

First, she is the second Disney princess to not express an interest in dating or marriage. The first being Merida. Second, she's the first Disney Princess whose sexuality is not even brought up at all over the course of the movie. Yes we have Anna, who longs for love. But Elsa just wants to be alone and free to be herself! And that's wonderful. [Vanellope Von Schweetz doesn't count she's a PRESIDENT.]

This is wonderful because in many cases a woman is defined by their sexuality, it's a big part of who they are in society. They almost always have a love interest, or if they don't it's a big showing that they're fighting against the norm they're the outlier, the "weird one" (as is the case with Brave or to a lesser extent Mulan, who actually did have a love interest). In the case of Elsa none of the above is true. She is merely a woman repressed by societal expectations to keep what makes herself a secret. What is she keeping a secret? anything you can imagine. A hidden talent, sexuality, nerdiness, anything.

Anecdote: I found her experience very similar to my own as an asexual. As I don't particularly think the coming out experience is all that different from what the LGBT community faces. There's certainly a lot of ignorance on the topic of asexuality, as is there ignorance from Elsa's parents and finally her peers at the end of the coronation party. They assume she will eventually be able to "control" and ultimately "conceal" her powers, which is maybe similar to the "you'll mature out of it", response asexuals get from their own parents (mine, did and still do, anyway). As are asexuals considered cold(ice powers anyone?) and unable to feel the emotion love, Anna accuses her sister of not knowing anything about love at the party.

There's the obvious parallels in the "Let It Go" anthem. "Let It Go" is a song that starts with self-loathing and regret and ends with a character who has come into her own and accepted herself so much as to love who she is. Albeit superficially at the current state of the movie, but it is her arc in its entire compressed to a 3 minute Broadway sequence.

tl;dr

Anyway, my own point is Elsa is a character anyone can relate to. Anyone that has ever hidden something from everyone. This includes the LGBT community. I know how badly it is to want you fully represented on camera, as an asexual (aromantic) love stories are a bit frustrating in their quantity. They all live happily ever after (in marriage), but can't happily ever after be outside of marriage, too? That's why I'm excited for Elsa's character, she's not "weird" or the exception because she doesn't need romantic love. She just is. She's happy and completely accepting of who she is, and finally she's content because of it.

DISCLAIMER: I absolutely love that the LGBT community can relate to Elsa, this point isn't to take that away. I just want everybody to be able to relate to Elsa, and express my own love that Elsa is a character that the AVEN community can embrace as well!

I have a slightly different take on Elsa:

We know she was based off the snow queen, a Scandinavian legend. We know the story line was also meant to show that Anna wasn't being sensible. And I could see how LGBT would relate.

But there's one major difference: aces aren't viewed as a danger to society the way bisexuals and homosexuals are. Elsa was viewed as not just weird, but dangerous. And her powers uncontrolled could be a killer. And, because she could not control her powers for the majority of the movie, she was a danger to others. Her parents did the best they could with what they knew to protect other people.

People usually don't care if one is single and virgin unless they get upset with their own decisions and start being a whiner and horrible to other people on purpose---only then are they dangerous to others. Elsa's situation isn't quite that.

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I didn't see her asexual or aromantic, to me, she just wanted everyone to leave her the fuck alone. Also, she didn't really have a choice but to be on her own because she couldn't control her powers. Maybe after the movie finished she started socializing and dating?



That aside, she was damn hot.. in a chilly kind of a way :p haha.


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So many people keep calling Elsa their favorite 'Disney Princess', but...she's not. She's a Disney QUEEN. One of the few Disney Queen's to have a significant part but not be a villain. Another little bit of progress. Even when she was being seen as a villain by the townsfolk, it was because they wouldn't leave her alone. Its like poking a hibernating bear in the eye then calling it vicious when it mauls you. Leave it alone! And her being a Queen is another hugely important piece of the progressiveness. She isn't a princess 'until the coronation' either. She's technically the queen the moment her parents die, she just has to be of age to be allowed to rule in place of the council that covers things while she's unable. It's important because its not 'the queen is old enough to take a king', or 'the queen can now be courted'. Every one is super exited for the Queen. And no one questions that a Queen is fine to rule on her own. Which she seems perfectly happy to do. And since Anna seems perfectly happy to fall in love eventually and bare and heir for the thrown, Elsa will never be forced to do that to carry on the royal line. In absence of a son to the Queen, a son to the next princess in line become the next Prince.

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My lesbian roommate headcanons Elsa as a lesbian, whereas I headcanon her as aro-ace. I guess the queer in all of us can see many shades of queer in Elsa, as well.

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My lesbian roommate headcanons Elsa as a lesbian, whereas I headcanon her as aro-ace. I guess the queer in all of us can see many shades of queer in Elsa, as well.

Admittedly I totally headconon her as an uber-kinky lesbian... that's all I'm going to say on that topic :ph34r: haha.

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I never got any of this out of Frozen. But I don't sit around analyzing movies. I only watch movies to escape the world for a while.

The one thing I appreciated from Frozen was the "true love" thing. As soon as they talked about the act of true love, I yelled at the TV screen, "True love is your sister! Not some man!" - I was elated when the movie listened to me and made true love be between the sisters. =)

on the note of racism, I'd like to pull up this article.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/12/superhero-fantasy-sci-fi-racist/

it may be a little different as it is a cartoon rather than live action, but the basic idea still applies. (specifically about the part where they say traditionally "white" characters Should be able to be ... not-white. -- as that specific argument was made earlier in this topic.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Personally, it bothers me a lot when everything is assimilated with an hidden message which would make reference to sexuality.

Elsa is basically just like a X-Men, who are rejected because their powers are feared. No need to see further...

Also, it contributes to reinforce the idea that a person who doesn't show obvious signs of heterosexuality, is automatically gay.

LOL

gay-elsa-gif.gif?w=300&h=124

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Personally, it bothers me a lot when everything is assimilated with an hidden message which would make reference to sexuality.

Elsa is basically just like a X-Men, who are rejected because their powers are feared. No need to see further...

Also, it contributes to reinforce the idea that a person who doesn't show obvious signs of heterosexuality, is automatically gay.

LOL

gay-elsa-gif.gif?w=300&h=124

I just wish she were gay because she is gorgeous. And also because she's voiced by Idina Menzel so I hear her voice and I just think of Maureen in Rent and I would just love to hear Elsa have a 'Take me or leave me' style duet with some other girl in the sequel. A girl can dream. If only the world were ready for a gay princess.

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I just wish she were gay because she is gorgeous. And also because she's voiced by Idina Menzel so I hear her voice and I just think of Maureen in Rent and I would just love to hear Elsa have a 'Take me or leave me' style duet with some other girl in the sequel. A girl can dream. If only the world were ready for a gay princess.

I don't understand your reasons, because they don't seem to be related with homosexuality in particular. But you are free to imagine what you want, fictions are here for that.

I just said that this kind of idea contributes to reinforce the black and white "hetero or homo" dichotomy. Even when sexual references are completely non-existent, people can't resist to interpretate gay references which don't even exist when a character isn't focused on a romantic partner of the opposite gender. It turns dramatically to obsession, as if sexuality (and sexual orientation in particular) was the only way to define a character.

Friendship exists too for example.

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I just wish she were gay because she is gorgeous. And also because she's voiced by Idina Menzel so I hear her voice and I just think of Maureen in Rent and I would just love to hear Elsa have a 'Take me or leave me' style duet with some other girl in the sequel. A girl can dream. If only the world were ready for a gay princess.

I don't understand your reasons, because they don't seem to be related with homosexuality in particular. But you are free to imagine what you want, fictions are here for that.

I just said that this kind of idea contributes to reinforce the black and white "hetero or homo" dichotomy. Even when sexual references are completely non-existent, people can't resist to interpretate gay references which don't even exist when a character isn't focused on a romantic partner of the opposite gender. It turns dramatically to obsession, as if sexuality (and sexual orientation in particular) was the only way to define a character.

Friendship exists too for example.

The character Maureen in Rent is bisexual, and it would just be cool to have a gay princess so children have a mainstream icon they can look up to who isn't straight for a change. But personally I like to see Elsa as homoromantic asexual, I just think it would be nice.

It's not, it's just part of a character, and in this case a part of the character that hasn't been addressed by the writers, so they could be anything, and considering the lack of representation of gay characters, and particularly non-heterosexual women, who are definitely less well represented than gay/bi/pansexual men, it's just nice to imagine a character is gay because there's no evidence to the contrary so it's harder for people to argue with it.

Um, I wouldn't call it an obsession. I know that friendship exists, and I don't think everything should be about romance (I like to tell myself that Merida is aro ace), but when different sexualities aren't being explicitly represented in fiction, sometimes making it up for yourself is the best way to get by.

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