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GoldFlsh

Disney's Frozen - Elsa and Asexuality (MAJOR Spoilers Follow)

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GoldFlsh   
GoldFlsh

Well, I've watched Frozen five times and still want to watch it a couple more times. I really took to it.

It's easily Disney's most progressive movie to date! And how could it not be:

7 Moments That Made 'Frozen' the most progressive Disney Movie Ever

Frozen did a lot of things right in subverting Love At First Sight and True Love's Kiss with the character Anna. She learned the mistake of rushing into things and in fact was able to save herself (no prince charming for this princess!) on her own with an act of true love for a family member, as opposed to true love solely being between prince and princess.

But I want to talk about Elsa. Elsa who hid away behind a door figuratively and literally for a good portion of her life. The ice powers are a clear cut metaphor for anything "different". While the door is a clear cut metaphor for hiding that "difference" away. She is at the very core, a woman who had to hide the best, or at the very least, a fundamental part of herself to fit in with society, to be accepted and not feared or hated. This struck home with the LGBTQ(lots of letters) community:

Will Elsa from "Frozen" become a role model for LGBT youth?

Due to this, people are claiming Elsa as a closet lesbian, which is not entirely a far jump to make given the parallelism with the coming out experience you find in the subtext of her arc.

This jump to call attention to Elsa's sexuality at all disappoints me, however. Here's why.

First, she is the second Disney princess to not express an interest in dating or marriage. The first being Merida. Second, she's the first Disney Princess whose sexuality is not even brought up at all over the course of the movie. Yes we have Anna, who longs for love. But Elsa just wants to be alone and free to be herself! And that's wonderful. [Vanellope Von Schweetz doesn't count she's a PRESIDENT.]

This is wonderful because in many cases a woman is defined by their sexuality, it's a big part of who they are in society. They almost always have a love interest, or if they don't it's a big showing that they're fighting against the norm they're the outlier, the "weird one" (as is the case with Brave or to a lesser extent Mulan, who actually did have a love interest). In the case of Elsa none of the above is true. She is merely a woman repressed by societal expectations to keep what makes herself a secret. What is she keeping a secret? anything you can imagine. A hidden talent, sexuality, nerdiness, anything.

Anecdote: I found her experience very similar to my own as an asexual. As I don't particularly think the coming out experience is all that different from what the LGBT community faces. There's certainly a lot of ignorance on the topic of asexuality, as is there ignorance from Elsa's parents and finally her peers at the end of the coronation party. They assume she will eventually be able to "control" and ultimately "conceal" her powers, which is maybe similar to the "you'll mature out of it", response asexuals get from their own parents (mine, did and still do, anyway). As are asexuals considered cold(ice powers anyone?) and unable to feel the emotion love, Anna accuses her sister of not knowing anything about love at the party.

There's the obvious parallels in the "Let It Go" anthem. "Let It Go" is a song that starts with self-loathing and regret and ends with a character who has come into her own and accepted herself so much as to love who she is. Albeit superficially at the current state of the movie, but it is her arc in its entire compressed to a 3 minute Broadway sequence.

tl;dr

Anyway, my own point is Elsa is a character anyone can relate to. Anyone that has ever hidden something from everyone. This includes the LGBT community. I know how badly it is to want you fully represented on camera, as an asexual (aromantic) love stories are a bit frustrating in their quantity. They all live happily ever after (in marriage), but can't happily ever after be outside of marriage, too? That's why I'm excited for Elsa's character, she's not "weird" or the exception because she doesn't need romantic love. She just is. She's happy and completely accepting of who she is, and finally she's content because of it.

DISCLAIMER: I absolutely love that the LGBT community can relate to Elsa, this point isn't to take that away. I just want everybody to be able to relate to Elsa, and express my own love that Elsa is a character that the AVEN community can embrace as well!

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Satan   
Satan

Elsa is my favourite princess and i could also relate to her

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Isanda   
Isanda

That's a lovely comparison to make; I saw Elsa as a metaphor for nonstandard sexuality or mental illness, but didn't explicitly think 'asexual'. It's especially funny to draw the comparison since asexuals can get stereotyped as 'frigid'.

I loved how the movie broke so many stupid true love stereotypes. I came out of the theater with a huge grin on my face.

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GoldFlsh   
GoldFlsh

That's a lovely comparison to make; I saw Elsa as a metaphor for nonstandard sexuality or mental illness, but didn't explicitly think 'asexual'. It's especially funny to draw the comparison since asexuals can get stereotyped as 'frigid'.

Yes, exactly,I think the point I was trying to come across (I hope that was successful) is even this metaphor is too narrow for Elsa. That each individual will relate to Elsa on such a personal level because it's literally something most people deal with, especially minorities. Including asexuals :)

I loved how the movie broke so many stupid true love stereotypes. I came out of the theater with a huge grin on my face.

I remember saying to myself after the final troll scene that they're missing an opportunity to make love be between sisters, since they had alluded to true love's kiss between Hans and Anna or even Kristoff at this point.

Really what they did with that is pretty fantastic!!! Absolutely second the *huge grin* :)

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marmalade-cats   
marmalade-cats

I loved that movie! Not because of any possible meanings hidden in Elsa's character, but just because of the way it stepped away from the standard prince and princess, happily ever after with a big wedding movie trope.

I can see how some people could interpret Elsa as some kind of metaphor for sexuality or mental illness, I just got the vibe that she was about being yourself and loving all part of your personality, even those other people might not enjoy. Don't let other people spoil your fun, etc.

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Celestine   
Celestine

Okay, I'm in the minority here, but I kind of had a bone to pick with that movie. Has anyone ever actually read "The Snow Queen"? It's awesome. A female protagonist goes on a quest to rescue her platonic male friend (the opposite of the Damsel in Distress trope) and she meets a variety of interesting and unique female characters on the way who all have agency and are fully realized characters. It was shockingly feminist, not only for its time but for today.

Yes, Frozen was one of the most progressive Disney moves to date. Yes, replacing romantic love with sororal love and saying "You can't marry someone you just met" are both great messages. But so many awesome and diverse female characters were replaced by mostly non-humans: a reindeer, weird little rock trolls, a talking snowman, and a love interest for Anna (the original protagonist Gerda did not need any help from a man, btw). So I still feel like Disney watered down the original feminist message, which is something I never thought I'd be saying about a Disney movie based on a fairy tale. I mean, with "Snow White" and "Sleeping Beauty" and crap they were all "But we're not being sexist, we're just following the original story!" and now they're changing this original story to be less feminist than it was. Plus, Elsa and Anna both fit the typical princess mold--white, stick thin, conventionally beautiful with big wide eyes, and in Anna's case almost certainly straight. So still not very relatable for people of different body types or skin colors (and yes I'm aware the story is in Norway, but it's not like a black Norwegian would have been the most unbelievable thing Disney's ever done!).

I don't want to sound like I'm hating on Frozen, because I did appreciate Disney taking at least baby steps forward with the message, and I thought the "Let It Go" sequence was gorgeous and inspiring (even if the rest of the movie was pretty boring tbh). To get back to the original point of this thread (whoops XD) I agree that the feelings expressed in "Let It Go" could apply to anyone who feels they have something to hide and long for the freedom to just be, and screw what the world says about it. I loved that and I definitely thought that song could apply to myself as an ace or anyone in a similar position (even though I personally can't tolerate ice and cold. XD)

Side note: Not to take anything away from the LGBT community, as they definitely need a confirmed and canon awesome lesbian princess, but I was a bit peeved by the assumption many people had that Merida was lesbian. To me, that implied 'Straight girls like makeup and dresses; lesbian girls like sports and independence' which is obviously simplistic and stereotyping. Any girl of any orientation can love horses and archery and rock climbing, mmk. I think this same stereotype is behind making Mulan a bisexual in "Once Upon a Time". Let's have more LGBT+ representation, hopefully some aces too, but can they not be stereotypes plz? :/

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OptimisticLinguist   
OptimisticLinguist

I agree that The Snow Queen is a brilliant story with a lot of interesting female characters, and it certainly deserves more widespread attention. Frozen is not a movie retelling of The Snow Queen, though! They found the fairytale quite dark and difficult to translate into a film. As the producer Peter Del Vecho said: “Inspired by” means exactly that. There is snow and there is ice and there is a Queen, but other than that, we depart from it quite a bit. We do try to bring scope and the scale that you would expect but do it in a way that we can understand the characters and relate to them." (Source: Wikipedia, quoting from an article by Brendon Connelly http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/09/25/inside-the-research-design-and-animation-of-walt-disneys-frozen-with-producer-peter-del-vecho/ )

On the other hand... Yeah, the characters were pretty much staple requirements of a standard family film. Elsa was, to me at least, the most interesting and unusual by miles! It would have been nice if they had decided to take characters from the original, but maybe it's just not enough of a Disney-ish story. Still, who knows? Maybe Frozen will revive general interest and send people scurrying to the original, possibly even inspiring them to make a closer adaptation for the screen someday! (Well, it's fun to imagine, at any rate.)

Character designs are almost always determined by cultural stuff. Everyone expects Disney princesses to be skinny and pretty, so it'd be a huge surprise if Disney broke a formula that has worked for them all this time. Nothing wrong with them being white, it is accurate to where they live and so on. If (for example) Mulan had been whitewashed then yes we would definitely have a problem, but with Anna and Elsa it's credible so I don't have an issue with it. On the other hand, I think they missed an opportunity with members of neighbouring kingdoms - it would've been easy to work in greater diversity thanks to the coronation gathering.

Like you said, Celestine, I guess it's baby steps.

That's a lovely comparison to make; I saw Elsa as a metaphor for nonstandard sexuality or mental illness, but didn't explicitly think 'asexual'. It's especially funny to draw the comparison since asexuals can get stereotyped as 'frigid'.

Yes, exactly,I think the point I was trying to come across (I hope that was successful) is even this metaphor is too narrow for Elsa. That each individual will relate to Elsa on such a personal level because it's literally something most people deal with, especially minorities. Including asexuals :)

Exactly! To return to the original topic, I personally love the idea of Elsa as an asexual - but it is just a headcanon, at the end of the day. Her story can mean whatever someone wants or needs it to mean, and that's much more powerful (and helps more people) than it would be if anyone came out and officially said "oh, it's definitely because of ​x that she feels this way". The way Elsa's situation reflects something universal is, for me at least, the best part of the movie. (Assuming I can include Let It Go, which sums it all up, sounds great, and is just a wonderful sequence in general.)

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GoldFlsh   
GoldFlsh

I think OptimisticLinguist really nailed what my own response would be to you Celestine, so I won't restate it too much. But I'd like to add this:

Here's a link I like to reference when it comes to many topics concerning Frozen's feminist "flaws" and counter arguments.

"Let’s dispense with the notion that the finished film is anything other than an original work influenced by, not based on, Andersen’s story. Rather than focusing on what it doesn’t do or doesn’t have, look at what it does do (promote positive female role models and relationships) and does have (fascinating, three-dimensional characters)." - Source

I like the perspective, myself.

Side note: Not to take anything away from the LGBT community, as they definitely need a confirmed and canon awesome lesbian princess, but I was a bit peeved by the assumption many people had that Merida was lesbian. To me, that implied 'Straight girls like makeup and dresses; lesbian girls like sports and independence' which is obviously simplistic and stereotyping. Any girl of any orientation can love horses and archery and rock climbing, mmk. I think this same stereotype is behind making Mulan a bisexual in "Once Upon a Time". Let's have more LGBT+ representation, hopefully some aces too, but can they not be stereotypes plz? :/

This annoys me, too. Personally I think it's less about stereotypes "boy stuff + girl = lesbian" "girl stuff + boy = gay" (and the heteronormative version of these equations) and more about this thinking that she doesn't want a man because her sexual orientation is lesbian (AKA she wants a woman). The perception that someone, especially a woman, can't have a fulfilling life independent of a lifelong sexual partner is still commonplace. Another thing I brought up, and agree with in my original post.

I want to be clear how much I hate the idea of some stuff is for boys and some stuff is for girls, I was mimicking societal ideas when creating the above equations.

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HariSlate   
HariSlate

I did not notice many of the ideas that have been assigned to 'Let it Go', but I now see them. I agree with how important it is to leave that song open to anybody who can relate to it, and that you shouldn't assume a person's sexuality just because they don't want a relationship.

From an aromantic perspective, this film felt quite important to me. It is one of the few (especially mainstream) films I have watched that give an impression of love in a way that I feel I can relate to. And the twist of true love not being remotely important, and no romantic relationship being seen as especially important (we know very little about Anna and Kristof at the end) was really quite important to me.

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Victrix   
Victrix

Personally I like to view Elsa as an aromantic asexual, mostly due to a few interactions that I can relate to in the movie that she has particularly the scene with her sister at the ball, when she says that she doesn't dance but understands that Anna would enjoy it. Prince Hans statement that nobody was going to get anywhere with Elsa also support it.

Of course the evidence is subjective, Brave could be interpreted the same way but I see the reactions in the movie as more a result of her situation (arranged marriage) and no evidence of any orientation.

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RoL34   
RoL34

Well, Elsa's ability to connect with people was taken away by her crippling fear of her ice powers. She shut everyone out and wouldn't let them, including her sister or parents get physically or emotionally close to her. In some respects that sounds like and asexual, but she is cold and distant out of necessity, not by nature. So I know how everyone would love it if Disney had their first asexual princess, but it's most likely not happening.

And I'm okay with that, because the focus of Frozen was not about who ends up with who. I already wrote a piece about what I think Frozen is about. You know, heteronormal people can relate to her too. There are many things people may feel they have to hide about themselves, it's not just sexual orientation, and seeing Elsa overcome this crippling anxiety and finally love herself and be confident enough to let other people in and share her abilities with her family and subjects is beautiful to watch.

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estrellaSMC   
estrellaSMC

I find this interesting. I have had a suspicion that Elsa may be asexual and had an idea for a fan fiction story where she admits to just not being interested in any kind of romantic relationship after her sister starts trying to play matchmker. The next little while is dicey as Anna tries and fails to understand and Elsa tries again and again to explain it to her. Finally, they all visit the trolls and someone asks Elsa if she's found anyone yet. When she tells them about being uninterested, the trolls give her the thid degree until Pabbie shows up and is able to make everybody understand.

I have to admit that part of the reason why I was inspired to write this story is because I am getting really tired of all the fan fiction stories where Elsa ends up in a romanitic relationship with another character. I haven't actually written it yet. It's still in the daydreamng and planning stage, and it might never go beyond that stage, but it's fun to think about.

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arcaneEnthusiast   
arcaneEnthusiast

Elsa is my favourite princess and i could also relate to her

Elsa is a queen which is so much more badass C:

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kulosle   
kulosle

Elsa is my favourite princess and i could also relate to her

Elsa is a queen which is so much more badass C:

Has anyone seen the nostalgia critics video called "whats with the princess hate"? I feel it would help deepen the discussion. Aside from that i have 2 points to make.

1) why is Disney held to a higher standard than everyone else. Disney has almost always had the most prgressive movies for their time. The origional princeases might be sexist, but back then woman rarely had names in films let alone be the lead role. People shouldnt blame what media for the way kids end up. Disney isnt raising the kid.

2) I'm really unfound of it when people make assumptions about someones sexuality. Espexially because it is usually done using stereotypes.

That being said I think disney was smart not to mention her sexuality at all. If there was ever an openly asexual character in a disney movie it would probably be done poorly (unless they got the right people and i dont know who that would be.) Diviersity in films come fron diversity in film makers. Asking some one with no rxperience with your minority group to make a move for your minority group will almost always end poorly.

Love Frozen soooo much by the by.

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NualaCatrionaMarie   
NualaCatrionaMarie

I love this! As if I needed another reason to feel like Elsa is my platinum blonde, cold-weather-loving soulmate.

Maybe this is silly, but honestly when I was watching the film, I was kind of worried, for a while, that a love interest for Elsa might pop up and ruin the whole thing. :P I mean, honestly, even if she's not asexual, who says she needs a man at this moment?! But that horror did not occur, and I was really (probably irrationally) happy about that.

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Filmfan   
Filmfan

I came out of the movie, which I saw on Thanksgiving night, and immediately identified with Elsa.

  • The first reason is obviously because there was no love interest in sight, yet she was happy and fulfilled at the film's end. Her priority was her kingdom, whether she wanted someone in the future or not.
  • I'm the elder of two girls, with the younger, auburn-haired one always throwing herself at guys because she desperately wants one to love her (still, at 35). Also, she would sacrifice herself for me (even though I'm not sure I feel the same way about her, which sometimes makes me feel awful).
  • I loved "Let It Go" because it reminded me of breaking away from my Catholic extended family's expectations, which seemed so limiting and oppressive to me, and moving to NYC when I was 22. This is where my talents may have a chance to shine, and that wasn't happening in New Orleans, which had so few opportunities (outside of the tourism industry) compared to New York. As an introvert, I needed to do that alone.
  • Of course, the first thing that most Southerners say when you're moving north of Tennessee is that there is snow up there! Like snow is something all that terrifying. Well, I'd take snow over a sunny day at the beach any day of the week. My response is like Elsa's: "The cold never bothered me anyway."

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waster60268   
waster60268

Elsa was a very interesting character, and I found myself identifying strongly with her despite my overall ambivalence towards the movie as a whole. (It was fun and lovely to behold, although I found the story and the relationships between the characters underdeveloped and tenuous.. but that's not what we're talking about here).

What I found most striking and relatable was that Elsa's superpower may have been the reason she isolated herself, but she also used it as a tremendous creative force: she built an ice palace on a mountain for goodness' sake, designed a badass gown to wear, and was prepared to live life by her own rules and resourcefulness, alone if necessary. Later, when she returned to her abandoned queendom, her creativity integrated with and beautified it, ostensibly enriching it well beyond what it used to be.

I dunno, I'm an artist of sorts and have considered myself "married to my work" for a solid couple years or so. While I can feel isolated at times, I work directly with clients who are part of other creative communities, and I still have time and affection for family and friends - I'm certainly not alone. I feel that not being in a relationship with a partner - and not expending megatons of energy to desperately search for one - frees me up to create more, and appreciate the other non-romantic relationships I do have.

I imagine that if I felt driven to attend ever possible fancy-arse party and sing songs about sandwiches with every handsome prince I'd just met, I wouldn't get a damn thing done!

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WoodwindWhistler   
WoodwindWhistler

Frozen, unfortunately, is deeply racist. It's in the DNA, the blueprint.

http://dreadlocksofsteel.tumblr.com/post/82752442954/what-did-you-think-about-frozen-after-watching-it

It's also highly ironic that anyone with mental problems would relate to the movie. Olaf and Anna perpetuate the stereotype of "all psychotic people are dangerous" when he encourages her to run from Kristoff when it appears he's talking to rocks. Only after it is confirmed that he's not nuts do they come to his side. Or, you know, when Elsa endangered her sister twice due to her condition. Delusions are not necessarily dangerous to anyone. They have no inherent moral qualities. They simply don't match up with observable reality by others. http://psychcentral.com/archives/violence.htm

Oh, and there IS an animated interpretation of Hans Christian Anderson's version. http://www.movieinsider.com/m12152/snow-queen/ I still reccomend getting the dramatic reading of HCA on CD.

Gotta wonder why Disney decided to name the "villain" after the source material's author. Here's a post on Hans' inconsistent characterization. http://girlwholovesturtles.tumblr.com/post/72184884522/okay-i-have-a-bit-of-a-headcanon-about-the-movie

Funny enough, he's my favorite character.

Personally, I was struck by the utter lack of real depth with the sisters. Elsa quickly shakes off her lifelong struggle with a smile and a couple of bars, proclaiming "you'll never see me cry." You could interpret this as emotional scarring. She's still keeping all that pain, and is unwilling to release it and break down because she's kept a lid on it and is afraid of it. But this is never said or explored, the overall thrust of the song is positive, even though she is leaving her younger sister behind to manage a kingdom and a possible marriage without even reflecting, while she's alone, on this or the apparent fact that she'll never see her again.

Wasn't their relationship supposed to be the crux of the movie?

The lack of development makes me suspect that they intentionally made her a bit of a blank slate for the audience to insert themselves into. I'm vaguely tempted to say that it was a mirror to Love is an Open Door- uplifting but with a hidden undertow. But it seems unlikely that the authors intended this with Let it Go. FEEL GOOD!! CAN'T YOU JUST FEEEEEEL IT? That smug last line! Oh YEEAH!!

As for Anna, she never resented her sister. Not really. Put yourself in that situation. Your sibling abruptly stops talking to you, and for years on end, hardly ever comes out. Snaps at you sometimes. Either you would resent her, or you would desperately and guiltily try to figure out what you did wrong. Probably both. A lot.

But nope, Anna is bouncy flouncy princess. Let's keep the messy emotions on the DL for her, too.

Is this possibly related to the pre-release comment,

"Historically speaking, animating female characters are really, really difficult, ’cause they have to go through these range of emotions, but they’re very, very — you have to keep them pretty " http://jezebel.com/disney-exec-says-women-are-hard-to-animate-because-of-e-1442563003%C2'> bad DNA built into it, apparently.

. . .

The lighting was GORGEOUS. The humor was cute. The music was pretty darn good. And I admit that when Anna's twist happened, I squealed with glee. But watching it a second time at the reduced price theatre, I was able to analyze it more closely, and realize that a lot of what I was getting out of it were all my internal thoughts about what all three of the characters might feel offscreen, not what was actually presented. (a bit disorienting, actually) Maybe that's a credit to the movie, though. It depends on how you look at it.

It was a nice Disney film. But it was no less riddled with problems than most of what Hollywood and Disney dish out, and possibly even more insidious because the majority of it goes under the radar.

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RoL34   
RoL34

Um, she didn't shake it off after the song. She was still shaky and nervous when Ana came, to see her, and she wanted her gone as soon as possible because she thought the only way she wasn't going to be a danger to people was if she was alone. And then as soon as she learned she accidentally started the snowpocalypse she totally lost it. It was a struggle the whole way through until she saw how Ana stuck by her and gave her life for her at the end.

And I'm sorry, but that blog post about Frozen being racist is pretty damn laughable. I read the original story, and Hans Christian Anderson gave just as little a damn about representing the Saami as Disney did, because it's a fantasy story that really has nothing to do with race. Arendelle is a fictional place that takes place in a fantasy version of Norway. And I find it hilarious that the vast majority of the rage against Frozen on behalf of the Saami culture is from US bloggers, while the Saami themselves are for the most part like "uh, whatever". They hired a Saami musician to write the traditional yoik that is played throughout the movie, and the movie was shown at a Saami film festival earlier this year.

Culturally insensitive? Possibly. Deeply racist? Don't be ridiculous.

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xserpx   
xserpx

At the risk of derailing this thread: Anna and Olaf talking to rocks is hardly "all psychotic people are dangerous". An easier argument would be that Anna and Olaf refute the idea that "all psychotic people are dangerous" because a) Kristoff clearly isn't psychotic, and we know we can trust him because the narrative tells us this, therefore their comment is clearly ignorant, and b) the whole point of this movie was to prove that Elsa isn't a bad person despite the fact she almost killed people. Like, you could argue it perpetuates the idea that mental illnesses make people dangerous, but in the context of the movie Elsa's anxiety is actually dangerous, hence the Catch 22, so there's no one in the film with a mental illness who is wrongly perceived to be dangerous. And even though Elsa's powers are bad news, Anna still reaches out to her anyway.

Also Frozen is about as racist as most other animated movies in that there are NO people of colour despite the fact it's a fantasy setting. I'm not an expert on Sami culture so I'm not even going to go there, but tbh if I didn't know from 3rd parties that it was influenced by Sami culture, I wouldn't have known. Arendelle is just like any other fairytale fantasy kingdom, it's not trying to pass itself off as representative of Sami life. I guess what I'm trying to say is that whilst it is problematic, I don't think it's as appropriating as the blog post you linked makes out. It's not like black face or wearing Indian headdresses, which is super obvious and offensive. This person also claims they're appropriating reindeer, even though in our own Western culture, reindeer represent snow and festivities and friendliness just like Sven did in the movie. He was basically Kristoff's Rudolph. Also this blogger claims it's set in a historial time frame when it's really not, because wow The Snow Queen never actually happened (it's a bit like saying Game of Thrones is set in the Middle Ages). I need to iron out my thoughts about cultural appropriation as a whole, because my knowledge about what constitutes appropriation (as opposed to inspiration/collaboration) and how it affects the races involved is pretty limited.

I'm starting to wonder if some animation companies just haven't worked out how to make dark skin though, considering that the only black human 3G animated character I can think of is Frozone from the Incredibles (I could be wrong here; can anyone suggest more?) It's pretty shocking, anyway, and it's one of the only criticisms I have about HTTYD2, which I am so desperately looking forward to it's not even funny. I'm also awaiting the crappy blog posts about how that film is horrendously racist towards indigenous Norwegian culture as well. Should be fun! 8D

Also in regards to female characters having to look pretty, I suggest you check out the Croods from Dreamworks. Eep is awesome - sometimes vulgar and never afraid to express herself, but always beautiful (it's a great movie too, and the animation is out of this world. Should've beaten Frozen at the Oscars IMO). She also has a chubbier face than many other animated women, which is cool (although her waist is still kinda tiny, but you get the overall sense of a large-bodied, curvy woman rather than a traditionally idealized body type). Also who made that quote about animated female characters being difficult to animate? Because I really hope he's not making movies anymore.

My favourite headcanon about Hans (and I love that there are so many different theories) is that he's a mirror - he has no actual personality of his own, he just reflects what everyone around him is feeling. Hence the mirroring of Anna's movements in Love is an Open Door, hence the Face Heel Turn right after Anna's just experienced Elsa's betrayal. It's the best reading by far. I like the idea that the trolls cursed him, but there's less evidence for it in the film.

EDIT: Guys! Guys! I just discovered that Dreamworks Animation's new movie "Home" is the very first 3D animated movie STARRING a black girl (voiced by Rihanna), and said black character won't be transformed into an animal throughout most of the film (a la the Emperor's New Groove, Brother Bear and Princess & The Frog)!! This is awesome stuff!

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"""   
"""

Elsa seems to be a mature girl, shes not hoping for a guy, she doest her shits and fix everything....I still dont think shes asexual..

Btw Venellope is a kid! :lol:

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Astrochelonian   
Astrochelonian

I loved Frozen and I was so happy they emphasized that true love doesn't have to be romantic love. I don't see Elsa as asexual by nature, though I wouldn't see her getting into a relationship quickly (she has learned to be patient and self-reliant, and she needs some time to reconnect with her sister and kingdom and herself before even thinking about anything else). And Let it Go can relate to anything the viewer feels they need to hide and wishes they didn't have to (extreme nerdiness!).

But I absolutely love the Frozen: How it Should Have Ended
Highlight if you don't want to watch: Elsa's parents are terrible, and the trolls take her to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters.

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RoL34   
RoL34

Okay, one, that video was funny and I couldn't stop laughing.

But I think everyone is being way too hard on the parents. True, their actions are what led to Elsa turning into a wreck, but it wasn't malicious. They loved their daughter and they wanted her to be safe. It's implied that they weren't afraid of her powers either until they realized it could actually cause damage. Mind you, that troll was really bad at explaining himself. He just said "control your shit or your powers will destroy you" and the parents and Elsa were like "OMG THIS IS BAD WE MUST DO SOMETHING". Granted, they did everything the wrong way, but they weren't trying to hurt her.

So no, I don't think they were bad parents, I think they just didn't know how to deal with Elsa's powers anymore than she did and they did whatever they could to keep both of their girls safe. Mind you, I think they just should've left her with the trolls for a while because obviously Grandpappy knew about those powers, but then there wouldn't be a movie, I guess.

And besides, the parents actions bring up an interesting point. Parents want their kids to be safe and happy, and for the most part, that means normal. They don't want them to be seen as weird or strange because those kids get picked on and are unhappy. That's why many parents bug out when their kid comes out as queer, because now they're "different", and open to a whole host of problems. It doesn't even have to be about sexual orientation or gender identity. It could be discovering a mental illness, or physicial disability, or even having a weird hobby. Little do they realize is that the fastest way to make their kid happy again is to accept them for who they are, not mold them into what they think a happy normal kid should look like. If your son loves to cook and play dress up, shut up and let him cook and play dress up. If your daughter is diagnosed with aspergers, pretending she doesn't have it and not getting her the proper treatment because you don't want her to be seen as "different" is not going to help her.

The parents may have been stupid and caused the main conflict of the movie, but they were just being parents. I don't think they should keep being crucified for that.

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MarieAntoinette   
MarieAntoinette

I completely related to Elsa and I've totally made it my own personal headcanon that she's an aromantic asexual. I love that she's a strong, independent, attractive woman who discovered who she is and conquered her fears and SHE DIDN'T HAVE, NEED, OR WANT A SIGNIFICANT OTHER! It's almost revolutionary, especially for a Disney movie. I can only hope that the creators will stay true to her character and not stick some Prince Charming on her in the sequel!

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Sgt Salt   
Sgt Salt

The creators of Elsa said that she was supposed to be a symbol of anxiety and depression. While it would be neat to consider her an ace, I don't think she was meant to be a representative of the GSM world. If you want to interpret her like that, go ahead, but I never really got that vibe from her.

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RoL34   
RoL34

The creators of Elsa said that she was supposed to be a symbol of anxiety and depression. While it would be neat to consider her an ace, I don't think she was meant to be a representative of the GSM world. If you want to interpret her like that, go ahead, but I never really got that vibe from her.

Considering anxiety and depression are pretty common traits among the GSM community, it's not surprising so many find her relatable and hold her up as a GSM icon.

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Soloray   
Soloray

The creators of Elsa said that she was supposed to be a symbol of anxiety and depression. While it would be neat to consider her an ace, I don't think she was meant to be a representative of the GSM world. If you want to interpret her like that, go ahead, but I never really got that vibe from her.

Can you link the source?

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WoodwindWhistler   
WoodwindWhistler

Um, she didn't shake it off after the song. She was still shaky and nervous when Ana came, to see her, and she wanted her gone as soon as possible because she thought the only way she wasn't going to be a danger to people was if she was alone. And then as soon as she learned she accidentally started the snowpocalypse she totally lost it. It was a struggle the whole way through until she saw how Ana stuck by her and gave her life for her at the end.

And I'm sorry, but that blog post about Frozen being racist is pretty damn laughable. I read the original story, and Hans Christian Anderson gave just as little a damn about representing the Saami as Disney did, because it's a fantasy story that really has nothing to do with race. Arendelle is a fictional place that takes place in a fantasy version of Norway. And I find it hilarious that the vast majority of the rage against Frozen on behalf of the Saami culture is from US bloggers, while the Saami themselves are for the most part like "uh, whatever". They hired a Saami musician to write the traditional yoik that is played throughout the movie, and the movie was shown at a Saami film festival earlier this year.

Culturally insensitive? Possibly. Deeply racist? Don't be ridiculous.

Yes, she did. She was confident and elated at the end of the song. She was smiling when Anna first stepped in. She didn't present anxiety again until Anna began pressing her. She didn't even explicitly express regret for leaving her behind or intending to leave her alone for the rest of her life (though I'll give you that you could easily pick up that it's implied) or apologize for lying to Anna for years.

She was also concerned at the beginning Anna was going to make a mistake by marrying the first guy she ever met (yeah, that's sort of a HUGE one!) but then she makes no mention of that worry, instead just brushing it off.

The continuity and genuinity is lacking.

So turning the reindeer, which is practically sacred to the Saami, into a cheap laugh wasn't racist? Making the sole character based on PoC white isn't racist? Methinks your radar is out of adjustment. Here's a Tumblr blog with an actual Saami person tearing to shreds the mistakes they've made with Kristoff's outfit and expressing disgust at cultural appropriation that results, for your edification. Disney has mounds of resources at its disposal. There's no reason to get any of this wrong. They have a global audience and influence. With great power comes . . .

http://laeta-sci.tumblr.com/post/83161768807/same-anon-here-i-know-you-did-a-comparison-way-back-i

But I think everyone is being way too hard on the parents. True, their actions are what led to Elsa turning into a wreck, but it wasn't malicious.

I think they just didn't know how to deal with Elsa's powers anymore than she did and they did whatever they could to keep both of their girls safe. Mind you, I think they just should've left her with the trolls for a while because obviously Grandpappy knew about those powers, but then there wouldn't be a movie, I guess.

The parents may have been stupid and caused the main conflict of the movie, but they were just being parents. I don't think they should keep being crucified for that.

I agree! The troll's magic image of villagers attacking her implied that fear FROM OTHER PEOPLE because of her powers would be Elsa's biggest problem. So the parents naturally kept others from knowing so she could learn to carefully control her powers.The trolls gave them no other instructions besides that. So if Elsa's powers were peaking when she felt strong emotions, logically the solution would be to reign in her emotions. Some might argue (I included) that learning not to let your emotions completely govern you is one of the main goals of life in general. Meditation is often touted as giving you perspective on your own feelings.

Heck, if her parents had lived, and she didn't go through that early emotional turmoil, this approach may have worked!

If anything the trolls were the ones that didn't do enough to ensure that they understood what they were saying. (then again, the trolls don't seem to recognize Anna when she comes to them as a teen, or even remember the incident. And they supposedly taught Kristoff as "love experts" that no one should go head over heels for someone they just met, yet they encourage him to do that exact thing when Anna waltzes into the picture. I think the TROLLS have a few screws loose, certainly not the parents).

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WoodwindWhistler   
WoodwindWhistler

(1) At the risk of derailing this thread: Anna and Olaf talking to rocks is hardly "all psychotic people are dangerous". An easier argument would be that Anna and Olaf refute the idea that "all psychotic people are dangerous" because a) Kristoff clearly isn't psychotic, and we know we can trust him because the narrative tells us this, therefore their comment is clearly ignorant, and b) the whole point of this movie was to prove that Elsa isn't a bad person despite the fact she almost killed people. Like, you could argue it perpetuates the idea that mental illnesses make people dangerous, but in the context of the movie Elsa's anxiety is actually dangerous, hence the Catch 22, so there's no one in the film with a mental illness who is wrongly perceived to be dangerous. And even though Elsa's powers are bad news, Anna still reaches out to her anyway.

(2) Also Frozen is about as racist as most other animated movies in that there are NO people of colour despite the fact it's a fantasy setting. I'm not an expert on Sami culture so I'm not even going to go there, but tbh if I didn't know from 3rd parties that it was influenced by Sami culture, I wouldn't have known. Arendelle is just like any other fairytale fantasy kingdom

(3) I'm starting to wonder if some animation companies just haven't worked out how to make dark skin though, considering that the only black human 3G animated character I can think of is Frozone from the Incredibles

(4) I'm also awaiting the crappy blog posts about how that film is horrendously racist towards indigenous Norwegian culture as well.

(1) *facedesk* They prove that you can trust psychotic people by sticking by a guy who "clearly ISN'T psychotic." Are you even proofreading what you're saying??? They can trust him because he's not psychotic, therefore most psychotic people are trustworthy? SMH

I'll say again, Anna was going to run away until Kristoff was proven nondelusional, therefore keeping perfectly intact the stigma against people who DO have mental problems.

Yes, it is dangerous, so it's dangerous to associate it with mental illness. Enough said. For the majority of the movie she isn't simply "perceived" to be dangerous, she actually is.

(2) When they intentionally use Sami things in the movie, and cash in on their "exotic" factor, but the audience is totally unaware of what they're seeing and hearing, that's really wrong. I mean, at least we knew Pocahontas was Native American and Kenai was Inuit. They're problematic, but at least they aren't whitewashed to the point where you can't even distinguish them from Caucasians!

(3) I don't know a whole lot about CG, but I do know it's laughably easy to color swap the bases of models, like bucketfilling on Paint. There's lighting maybe, but that's a flimsy excuse at the very best.

(4) That post is hardly "crappy." It just expresses an opinion you may not agree with, and is quite detailed. Unless you're referring to the fact that they cussed and capslocked? I might agree with you except if you use that as an excuse to dismiss the content, well, that'd be quite "crappy" of you.

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RoL34   
RoL34

Um, she didn't shake it off after the song. She was still shaky and nervous when Ana came, to see her, and she wanted her gone as soon as possible because she thought the only way she wasn't going to be a danger to people was if she was alone. And then as soon as she learned she accidentally started the snowpocalypse she totally lost it. It was a struggle the whole way through until she saw how Ana stuck by her and gave her life for her at the end.

And I'm sorry, but that blog post about Frozen being racist is pretty damn laughable. I read the original story, and Hans Christian Anderson gave just as little a damn about representing the Saami as Disney did, because it's a fantasy story that really has nothing to do with race. Arendelle is a fictional place that takes place in a fantasy version of Norway. And I find it hilarious that the vast majority of the rage against Frozen on behalf of the Saami culture is from US bloggers, while the Saami themselves are for the most part like "uh, whatever". They hired a Saami musician to write the traditional yoik that is played throughout the movie, and the movie was shown at a Saami film festival earlier this year.

Culturally insensitive? Possibly. Deeply racist? Don't be ridiculous.

Yes, she did. She was confident and elated at the end of the song. She was smiling when Anna first stepped in. She didn't present anxiety again until Anna began pressing her. She didn't even explicitly express regret for leaving her behind or intending to leave her alone for the rest of her life (though I'll give you that you could easily pick up that it's implied) or apologize for lying to Anna for years.

She was also concerned at the beginning Anna was going to make a mistake by marrying the first guy she ever met (yeah, that's sort of a HUGE one!) but then she makes no mention of that worry, instead just brushing it off.

The continuity and genuinity is lacking.

So turning the reindeer, which is practically sacred to the Saami, into a cheap laugh wasn't racist? Making the sole character based on PoC white isn't racist? Methinks your radar is out of adjustment. Here's a Tumblr blog with an actual Saami person tearing to shreds the mistakes they've made with Kristoff's outfit and expressing disgust at cultural appropriation that results, for your edification. Disney has mounds of resources at its disposal. There's no reason to get any of this wrong. They have a global audience and influence. With great power comes . . .

http://laeta-sci.tumblr.com/post/83161768807/same-anon-here-i-know-you-did-a-comparison-way-back-i

But I think everyone is being way too hard on the parents. True, their actions are what led to Elsa turning into a wreck, but it wasn't malicious.

I think they just didn't know how to deal with Elsa's powers anymore than she did and they did whatever they could to keep both of their girls safe. Mind you, I think they just should've left her with the trolls for a while because obviously Grandpappy knew about those powers, but then there wouldn't be a movie, I guess.

The parents may have been stupid and caused the main conflict of the movie, but they were just being parents. I don't think they should keep being crucified for that.

I agree! The troll's magic image of villagers attacking her implied that fear FROM OTHER PEOPLE because of her powers would be Elsa's biggest problem. So the parents naturally kept others from knowing so she could learn to carefully control her powers.The trolls gave them no other instructions besides that. So if Elsa's powers were peaking when she felt strong emotions, logically the solution would be to reign in her emotions. Some might argue (I included) that learning not to let your emotions completely govern you is one of the main goals of life in general. Meditation is often touted as giving you perspective on your own feelings.

Heck, if her parents had lived, and she didn't go through that early emotional turmoil, this approach may have worked!

If anything the trolls were the ones that didn't do enough to ensure that they understood what they were saying. (then again, the trolls don't seem to recognize Anna when she comes to them as a teen, or even remember the incident. And they supposedly taught Kristoff as "love experts" that no one should go head over heels for someone they just met, yet they encourage him to do that exact thing when Anna waltzes into the picture. I think the TROLLS have a few screws loose, certainly not the parents).

Actually, she was on edge the whole time, she was all "what are you doing here, you need to leave, you need to leave NOW" She thought the only way she was going to be happy and free was if she was completely alone. She may have thought she was okay, but she was wrong, that was the whole point.

And if the Saami haven't bitched about Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer yet, then I don't think they particularly care what people do with reindeer in children's cartoons.

Aaaaaand I'm going to have to disagree with you on the parents. While the goal was to get Elsa to control her emotions because they are quite clearly linked to her powers, their methods were wrong. Getting her to not feel anything and cutting her off from almost all human interaction only heightened her anxieties. If her parents lived it only would have put off the inevitable. Elsa never would have been able to overcome her anxieties and interact with people, let alone rule if she kept doing what her parents wanted her too.

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