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#1321 VanHelsing

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 08:40 PM

That's why everyone should speak Lojban, or something similar, in addition to their natural language. There's absolutely no need to assign a gender to ANYTHING (even people), a simple grammatical structure that allows for no ambiguity (unless you want it), it's pronunciation is such that everyone all around the world has an easy time speaking it, and understanding others, and it is the perfect language for interfacing with computers. Can you tell I like this language a lot? I need to practice it more...



#1322 Broken Lambda

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:44 PM

 

For 0.0.0.0: What is it about non-binary identities that people have a hard time understanding?

 

You're talking to the élite again. Not everyone knows that 0.0.0.0 is the broadcast address :P

<...>

:(  I /totally/ never thought about that *eyeroll*.  Me not biddy smaut.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone or excluded anyone from the conversation.

 

Regarding non-binary identities, all the replies (?recursively quotable?) make me realise how little I understand about the way most people think.  All these explanations are valid and seem very plausible.  I never considered why it would be a hard point for people to grasp.  In some ways, I still don't understand it fully.

 

With gender in languages, I think a programming language analogue is interesting, for the people who know a few languages.  For those who don't, I will try to accomodate.  Some languages require data to be explicitly typed, where the programmer specifies that "x is a string", "y is an integer", and so forth.  This can be seen as similar to explicit gender in languages.  The programmer always can see that they are dealing with typed (gendered) variables.  Some programmers may find this helpful.

 

On the other hand, there are some languages like Lisp or Haskell where types are inferred from the computation themselves.  From "x = 1 + 2", we know x is an integer.  This seems to allow greater flexibility and is more intuitive to some.  Plus, the programmer doesn't need to worry about making such types agree, if they just use a little sense when they program.  Maybe human languages without grammatical gender are like these type-inferred programming languages.

 

I think eliminating grammatical gender of pronouns would go a long way toward gender-neutral language.  If people are so attached to their male and female tables, then they can keep them.  Pronouns, however, are about people.  People do have independent identities, irrespective of what gender they are or are not.  People are people.  Language should accomodate them.


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(sequence (print! "Failed Computer Scientist.") (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Regrettably Introverted.")   (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Once ranted about theory."))


#1323 Robin L

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 05:59 PM

For 0.0.0.0: What is it about non-binary identities that people have a hard time understanding?

 
You're talking to the élite again. Not everyone knows that 0.0.0.0 is the broadcast address :P
 
Ooh, I learned something new today! :D
An admin of the AVENwiki, please help make it awesome!
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I like to write poems when I feel like it. They're collected on my blog A Touch of Gold (thread).
I now have a new ace blog with Mycroft called Let Us Eat Cake.

#1324 tommy92

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 06:04 PM

 

 

For 0.0.0.0: What is it about non-binary identities that people have a hard time understanding?

 
You're talking to the élite again. Not everyone knows that 0.0.0.0 is the broadcast address :P
 
Ooh, I learned something new today! :D

 

You're not the only one^^



#1325 `Silver

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:12 PM

No worries Al :D Besides, it's really fun that you slipped on something like that. There's something funny to talking in an élite fashion about a broadcast address... see what I mean? I hope so. I'm crap at explaining things like these. :ph34r:

 

Also, if gender had a parallel in computer science, my gender variable would be of type void. (Because I can.) :P


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#1326 tommy92

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:15 PM

Sigh...I am feeling really frustrated these days... I think I might have developed more or less mild gender dysphoria...

 

 

 

Also, if gender had a parallel in computer science, my gender variable would be of type void. (Because I can.) :P

Hey you stole my idea :P



#1327 Broken Lambda

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:31 PM

My gender in CS terms?  Consider the data type definitions of Scheme.  Data types are defined by what predicates they satisfy.  (string? s) => #t, if s is a string.  (list l) => #t, if l is a list.  But the empty list '() is special.  It satisfies no predicates.  My gender also satisfies no predicates.


(sequence (print! "Failed Computer Scientist.") (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Regrettably Introverted.")   (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Once ranted about theory."))


#1328 VanHelsing

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:47 PM

 

Also, if gender had a parallel in computer science, my gender variable would be of type void. (Because I can.) :P

 

I recently came out to my crush as everything (he's a CS major too), and I said that my gender is like null. For the non-cs people, null is a value, but there's nothing there. It's a hard concept to explain, but it's essentially like Neutrois is having a gender, and that gender is nothing (at least that's my understanding), as opposed to not having a gender at all. And that made complete sense to them.


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#1329 `Silver

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:31 AM

I recently came out to my crush as everything (he's a CS major too), and I said that my gender is like null. For the non-cs people, null is a value, but there's nothing there. It's a hard concept to explain, but it's essentially like Neutrois is having a gender, and that gender is nothing (at least that's my understanding), as opposed to not having a gender at all. And that made complete sense to them.

 

It does make sense to me :) genderless is like a non-existing object (or value), whilst agender/neutrois is like a null object (or value).


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"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1330 Watchtower

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:33 PM

So, theoretically, could I use "empty set" as a metaphor in explaining my gender stuff to my math teacher parent? 

 

Also, hello. *arrives late with cupcakes*



#1331 Broken Lambda

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:37 PM

So, theoretically, could I use "empty set" as a metaphor in explaining my gender stuff to my math teacher parent? 

 

Also, hello. *arrives late with cupcakes*

Welcome!  *offers pancakes*

 

You can use whatever you like to explain your gender stuff.  As long as you feel good about it.

My opinion: The empty set is similar to the empty list.  It exists, but it contains no elements.  Just be careful, because sometimes the empty set is lazily used as a synonym for "does not exist".  So you can see that there are two interpretations here.


(sequence (print! "Failed Computer Scientist.") (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Regrettably Introverted.")   (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Once ranted about theory."))


#1332 `Silver

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 10:54 AM

Hey Watchtower! :D :cake:
Make yourself at home here. You'll see there are plenty of mathematically-minded people in this thread. (I like your empty set analogy :))


"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1333 Broken Lambda

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 04:06 PM

Following in the footsteps of the brave people who set the example before,

I present to you all,

My face:

 

Spoiler

 

How magnificently non-androgynous, right?


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(sequence (print! "Failed Computer Scientist.") (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Regrettably Introverted.")   (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Once ranted about theory."))


#1334 tommy92

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 04:59 PM

To quote you:

 

<...>

For those who saw my picture, how obvious is my biological sex? I have this illusion that it might be hard to tell if it wasn't for the fact that I dress male-ish. But it is probably pretty obvious... (please tell me that it is at least somewhat difficult :P no? Oh well :rolleyes: )

 

 

I could tell your biological sex from your photograph as well, though there was no immediate indication.  Your face doesn't yell 'masculine', but has some subtle features.  You look pretty neutral to my eyes.


 

I think that is very well put :)

 

 

I was wondering if my sex would be less obvious in a full body shot...but then again I don't want to show nor does someone want to see my chubby body :P



#1335 `Silver

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:45 PM

I was wondering if my sex would be less obvious in a full body shot...but then again I don't want to show nor does someone want to see my chubby body :P

 

I like seeing pictures of other people from the web, no matter how chubby or non-chubby they are. :o

But I'm not fair in that regard, because I never willingly show myself. I do have pictures (and even videos) of myself on the net somewhere, but I generally... uh... let other people find them. :P *evil*

Al, your face is giggle-worthy. Don't ask why, it just is. :D


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"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1336 Robin L

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:18 PM

The application for a German visa actually includes an option in sex for "unknown". You don't know how much I wanted to choose that.
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An admin of the AVENwiki, please help make it awesome!
中文無性戀網站討論區 (Chinese asexual community website and forum) Ich kann auch Deutsch sprechen.
I like to write poems when I feel like it. They're collected on my blog A Touch of Gold (thread).
I now have a new ace blog with Mycroft called Let Us Eat Cake.

#1337 JingLe

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:28 PM

Happy Thanksgiving y'all~ :D Pie_zpscce4b61a.jpg


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#1338 `Silver

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 10:47 AM

The application for a German visa actually includes an option in sex for "unknown". You know know how much I wanted to choose that.

 

It's been recently introduced for intersex people. :) I'm not sure it can be demanded in other contexts or for other reasons, but you could always ask.

 

Oh, and happy late turkey day. This fellow European didn't really remember to wish everyone merry eating times :P


"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1339 Robin L

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 11:59 AM

The application for a German visa actually includes an option in sex for "unknown". You know know how much I wanted to choose that.

 
It's been recently introduced for intersex people. :) I'm not sure it can be demanded in other contexts or for other reasons, but you could always ask.
It would be different from my passport, so I can't choose that. But I just kept staring at the blank...
An admin of the AVENwiki, please help make it awesome!
中文無性戀網站討論區 (Chinese asexual community website and forum) Ich kann auch Deutsch sprechen.
I like to write poems when I feel like it. They're collected on my blog A Touch of Gold (thread).
I now have a new ace blog with Mycroft called Let Us Eat Cake.

#1340 tommy92

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 12:37 PM

Oh, and happy late turkey day. This fellow European didn't really remember to wish everyone merry eating times :P

I'm guilty of the same :P



#1341 tommy92

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 03:44 PM

So I went to my psych today and took all my courage to open up about asexuality and my gender identity... it went so great. I now feel dumb for worrying that much about it :P (may get into detail later on if someone is interested^^)

 

Also it's my 500th post, so yay :cake: :D



#1342 Broken Lambda

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 03:52 PM

 

Oh, and happy late turkey day. This fellow European didn't really remember to wish everyone merry eating times :P

I'm guilty of the same :P

 

Us Canadians had their merry eating long ago.  Count another for not remembering.

 

 

To quote you:

<quotestuff>

I think that is very well put :)

 

 

I was wondering if my sex would be less obvious in a full body shot...but then again I don't want to show nor does someone want to see my chubby body :P

Danke Tom!  Now you have me wondering the same.  IF a full body shot was in-order, I would cheat by wearing my winter coat.

Chubbiness doesn't affect how I see people.  It's just interesting to see the physical container for the personalities which we converse with.

 

POST-NINJA:

So I went to my psych today and took all my courage to open up about asexuality and my gender identity... it went so great. I now feel dumb for worrying that much about it :P (may get into detail later on if someone is interested^^)

 

Also it's my 500th post, so yay :cake: :D

That is great, excellent, cheer-inducing news!  I'm happy for you getting all the things out there.  Decisions are difficult.  Good work!

(interested? 'someone) => #t        :P


(sequence (print! "Failed Computer Scientist.") (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Regrettably Introverted.")   (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Once ranted about theory."))


#1343 `Silver

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:28 PM

Well Tom, I already know the story, but I encourage you to share it here. It would be a happy testimony of how some psychologists are great and understand gender issues really well! :)


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"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1344 tommy92

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:44 AM

Well Tom, I already know the story, but I encourage you to share it here. It would be a happy testimony of how some psychologists are great and understand gender issues really well! :)

 

I'm currently working on it (should it be it's own topic, then? )



#1345 `Silver

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:02 AM

Well Tom, I already know the story, but I encourage you to share it here. It would be a happy testimony of how some psychologists are great and understand gender issues really well! :)

I'm currently working on it (should it be it's own topic, then? )

 

Definitely should be. More people will read it in that case, which is a good plus. :D


"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1346 tommy92

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 03:33 PM

 

Well Tom, I already know the story, but I encourage you to share it here. It would be a happy testimony of how some psychologists are great and understand gender issues really well! :)

I'm currently working on it (should it be it's own topic, then? )

 

Definitely should be. More people will read it in that case, which is a good plus. :D

 

Have done it :)


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#1347 `Silver

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 11:03 AM

*Pokes thread*

 

Christmas! Let's talk about Christmas. Are you going to celebrate it? Any idea on what gifts you'd like to get/will be getting? What are you doing on the day? Do you have any new year's resolutions? :P


"I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what we do with the gift of life that makes us who we are."

 

MBTI: INTJ


#1348 ObsessedWithCats

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 01:49 PM

I'm going home for Christmas this Saturday morning and I'm so excited :3 The only gift I've specifically asked for is the soundtrack to Rent, though I think my Mum wants to take me shopping for running stuff too, which'll be good 'cause as-is I have to tuck my tissues and gloves in my waistband.

 

Lately as my sisters get older they've stopped wanting to get up at 6am to open presents (I still function like a five year old in that aspect), so I might let them lie in and go on a Parkrun. I can then spend the day eating vast amounts of Christmassy food, which aside from being at home is the best thing about Christmas.

 

I don't really do new year's resolutions, though I might do a running related one (like to run 500 miles in 2014 or something) for a change this year. My main bad habits are sucking my thumb when I'm tired and eating too many sweets during term time. The former has been very, very slowly improving over the last decade or so despite many efforts to stop it cold, and the later is necessary psychologically to survive the eight-week-hell terms that are standard at my Uni, so the usual 'quit insert vice here' wouldn't really work.


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side effects may include goat-induced euphoria, gender impermanence, transatlantic vocabulary swaps, sugar highs, alarmingly increased frequency of catting, nice socks, CAPS LOCK, neologism, sesquipedalian loquaciousness, persistent rainbows and the realisation that it is several hours past bedtime and you are still goofing off on the internet.


#1349 Broken Lambda

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:31 PM

Christmas: Will not be celebrating.  Unfortunately, I will be going home then.  Fortunately, I can work on a collaborative computer project with a certain person (you know who you are).  I do not ask for anything for Christmas, even though my family always gives me money.  They have accepted that I will buy things with it when I need it, and for my own mysterious reasons.  On that day, I will likely be physically alone, though perhaps not mentally.  As I am always striving to improve myself, New Year's resolutions seem rather unnatural for me.  I'm curious to see the responses of others.

 

Personal fuming, universe-consuming, tempestuous rage:  I was required to write an article for my university's computer science department's website.  The article was to be in third-person, as if I had interviewed myself about my experiences as a research assistant during the previous summer.  One would think, writing about oneself, that the person would know what pronouns they prefer to be addressed by.  Oh no, can't have that!  I look at the department's website, only to find that some scheming scumbag has parsed through the article and gendered me as a "him".  What makes it worse is that my grade has suffered for it.

*So . incredibly . pissed*


(sequence (print! "Failed Computer Scientist.") (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Regrettably Introverted.")   (print! <NL>)

          (print! "Once ranted about theory."))


#1350 tommy92

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:39 PM

Sorry to hear that... Is there a way of complaining about it? (I am writing on my phone so I will tell you what how I spend my christmas when I'm home again *waiting for train*




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