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Using condoms to promote asexuality

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Cakey

"akin to giving ice to eskimos"...I hadn't thought of that but of course you're right Cakes.

Lol, do I get a house-point miss, or do I get a condom..... Welcome to Aven, have a condom and two Dental Dams... lol, we really need those those two emoticons to be provided, now!!!

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MaschMan

Condoms to inform the public about asexuals = Best idea ever.

I can't stop smiling. It's perfect. Funny, smart, thought provoking and kinda unexpected. The people who came up with this need to be congratulated.

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Winter Hill

I'm not talking of legal age, but I think you recognize a child from someone with the age to have sex right?

The legal age here is 16. I don't hang around with enough teenagers to be able to recognise a 15-year-old from a 16-year-old. They all just look like kids / teenagers to me!

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Cakey

"akin to giving ice to eskimos"...I hadn't thought of that but of course you're right Cakes.

Lol, do I get a house-point miss, or do I get a condom..... Welcome to Aven, have a condom and two Dental Dams... lol, we really need those those two emoticons to be provided, now!!!

Ask and ye shall receive (unless you prefer to give):

l===}

lol, oh dear, how remiss of me, I have forgotten that you love a challenge. :)

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Kitty Spoon Train

Tangent:

I've always had a strange ambivalent undercurrent of feeling about condoms (in terms of "not knowing if someone is clean from STDs", that is). Something along the lines of: "How the heck can I possibly want to have sex with someone if we don't know and trust each other well enough not to know that we're both clean anyway?". ie. Established relationship for months if not years, tested, etc.

Talk about a demi moment...

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Sally

Tangent:

I've always had a strange ambivalent undercurrent of feeling about condoms (in terms of "not knowing if someone is clean from STDs", that is). Something along the lines of: "How the heck can I possibly want to have sex with someone if we don't know and trust each other well enough not to know that we're both clean anyway?". ie. Established relationship for months if not years, tested, etc.

Talk about a demi moment...

It's not a matter of trust. You can be NOT clean without knowing it. People who've gone from one relationship to another don't always get tested; there are STDs which don't show up on tests immediately; partners sometimes have a one-night stand and don't think it's important to tell their partner because they think the one-night-stand was clean; etc. etc.

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Kitty Spoon Train

It's not a matter of trust. You can be NOT clean without knowing it. People who've gone from one relationship to another don't always get tested; there are STDs which don't show up on tests immediately; partners sometimes have a one-night stand and don't think it's important to tell their partner because they think the one-night-stand was clean; etc. etc.

I don't know what the longest incubation period (or whatever it's called) is of any STD before it shows up on tests, but I can guarantee that it's much shorter than the amount of time it takes for me to get sexual with a new person. :lol:

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Fitzsimmons ♡

It's not a matter of trust. You can be NOT clean without knowing it. People who've gone from one relationship to another don't always get tested; there are STDs which don't show up on tests immediately; partners sometimes have a one-night stand and don't think it's important to tell their partner because they think the one-night-stand was clean; etc. etc.

I don't know what the longest incubation period (or whatever it's called) is of any STD before it shows up on tests, but I can guarantee that it's much shorter than the amount of time it takes for me to get sexual with a new person. :lol:

Yeah but if after you "get sexual" your partner cheats on you and doesn't tell you, you could get something as well having sex with your partner after that.

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Cakey

Tangent:

I've always had a strange ambivalent undercurrent of feeling about condoms (in terms of "not knowing if someone is clean from STDs", that is). Something along the lines of: "How the heck can I possibly want to have sex with someone if we don't know and trust each other well enough not to know that we're both clean anyway?". ie. Established relationship for months if not years, tested, etc.

Talk about a demi moment...

My doctor tells me that the protocol is you commit to your partner and after three months of that (where neither of you are having sex elsewhere) you both get HIV tested, etc, and show eachother the results before you start having unprotected sex. And really, I wouldn't date again anyone who was the type to do one night stands or want an open relationship etc, so it seems a workable system. I could certainly not be bothered with having to use condoms forever in my relationship. I want the 'real thing' eventually--and how else do people have babies? There has to come a time when unprotected sex is what you do, and I think it would be selfish to put your partner at risk.

Sensible advice, but I would still rather go shopping, for stuff I can't afford, lol.

I always remember the time, when for two certain people,the carnal fly-wheel, was whizzing by, with a steadily-gaining momentum, as the Mid-Alantic point, approached urgently, I suddently, sat up with a start, and exclaimed. "Have we put the bin out?"

I am so romantic, hot! Can a person be Bin-xexual, because I've certainly bin there?

No hope for me, Thank God. :)

It's not a matter of trust. You can be NOT clean without knowing it. People who've gone from one relationship to another don't always get tested; there are STDs which don't show up on tests immediately; partners sometimes have a one-night stand and don't think it's important to tell their partner because they think the one-night-stand was clean; etc. etc.

I don't know what the longest incubation period (or whatever it's called) is of any STD before it shows up on tests, but I can guarantee that it's much shorter than the amount of time it takes for me to get sexual with a new person. :lol:

Yeah but if after you "get sexual" your partner cheats on you and doesn't tell you, you could get something as well having sex with your partner after that.

My dear, it sounds like you have been out with my ex too. ;)

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Kitty Spoon Train

Yeah but if after you "get sexual" your partner cheats on you and doesn't tell you, you could get something as well having sex with your partner after that.

It might sound insanely ironic, but this is a big part of the reason why I'm polyamorous...

Most STD spreading comes exactly from that mentality of being rigidly monogamous and then cheating on people. When you don't have that assumption in place and people are not tempted to sneak around, they're far more likely to approach sexual health pragmatically and with open communication with all partners, and not get caught up in passionate secret affairs where the risk and secrecy is part of the kick, etc. So in this scenario, it's actually like an insurance policy. eg. You can go back to having protected sex if your partner acquires another partner, etc.

Note: When I say I'm polyamorous, for me this is 99% about emotional openness, not sex. I'd actually be more than happy to be sexually exclusive in a serious relationship, if for no other reason than that condoms are such a mood-killing pain in the arse. But this is all mostly theoretical because I'm so far towards the black end of demisexual that most of my future relationships are liable to be asexual anyway. :lol:

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Cakey

Ah, whether you wish to play the numbers game, or prefer a single for the tingle, is your preference. Personally I would probably find it hard to be polyamorous, as I can only count up to two. :wacko:

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Notte stellata

I can't think of anything worse than having a partner who is free to put me at risk of HIV unless we always use condoms for the rest of our lives. And dental dams. I dated someone like that for a year and it was just pewk. So no, not for me. And again, what about children? Condoms and pregnancy don't go together so if at some point you want kids.....

There are all sorts of arrangements. Some poly people use condoms with anyone. Some have unprotected sex with their primary partner, and use condoms with outside partners. Sometimes several people form a closely tied fluid-bond group and have protected sex with anyone outside the group. Or they practice polyfidelity which doesn't allow out-group sex. Of course, these arrangements all need a great deal of trust and honesty. But it's the same as monogamous couples who have unprotected sex.

As for children, for those who have unprotected sex with their primary partner, it's not an issue. Otherwise, they may refrain from outside sex for a period of time, and stop using condoms to conceive children. Being poly doesn't mean having to have a lot of sex partners all the time, and during special times they may go back to exclusivity for a while. It's all flexible and negotiable. :)

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Sally

My doctor tells me that the protocol is you commit to your partner and after three months of that (where neither of you are having sex elsewhere) you both get HIV tested, etc, and show eachother the results before you start having unprotected sex. And really, I wouldn't date again anyone who was the type to do one night stands

There is no "type" -- I've known very close marriages break up because one partner discovered (wasn't told by the other parter, discovered) that there'd been a one-night stand. No one's perfect, and an affair, even of one night, is not something anyone wants to tell their partner, so sometimes they just don't tell. They sometimes don't tell their partner that they're bisexual, either.

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Kitty Spoon Train

The thing is Guz, a lot of people actually like monogamy and they are not interested in cheating because they just happen to be honorable, you know? Its not a burden for them to stick to one partner.

I've seen this from the perspective of being the "other man" in an "emotional affair" of sorts...in a marriage that was (and still is) about as rock solid and awesome as you can imagine. You would never know looking at it from outside.

Basically what I didn't like about that situation (and don't want to put someone I love through) are the psychological consequences of that absolute upfront expectation of You're 100% Mine Forever No Matter What. Where even just something like developing tender feelings for a friend (which is all that happened in this case) becomes this huge drama where you have to choose one over the other and feel like your world is crashing down. It's simply about being realistic about human nature. And part of human nature is that feelings for people wax and wane and evolve. There is no need to get up in arms and feel like you've got a split personality simply because you fell in love with a friend, and I don't want someone I'm with to ever feel trapped like that. I want her to be able to openly discuss it with me. And it's a two-way street.

The way I see it, this is a more honest approach to dealing with commitment anyway. Because you can openly communicate about attractions to others rather than repress them. The way I think of it then (in the context of a primary partnership like my married friends) is something like where she could say to her husband: "Yes, I got attracted to Guzica. The rush of NRE is awesome! But ultimately I'm committed to you and that's what matters.". When you can't do that, it's not really an honest relationship in my book. Far too much fundamental baggage being repressed instead of honestly dealt with I think.

Obviously this isn't even (necessarily) an argument for polyamory as such - but mostly for the psychology behind it. Much of it can be applied to being monogamous, but with more honest reasoning than "I just know I'll never be attracted to anyone else because I love you too much!". BZZZZZT!! Noone can promise that. Trust me on this. :lol:

I can't think of anything worse than having a partner who is free to put me at risk of HIV unless we always use condoms for the rest of our lives. And dental dams. I dated someone like that for a year and it was just pewk. So no, not for me. And again, what about children? Condoms and pregnancy don't go together so if at some point you want kids.....

There are really two separate issues here: the abstract issue of loving multiple people, and the physical logistics of sexual health concerns. The first one has no physical complications, but it can carry the same amount of drama and baggage as indulging the full deal.

See, for me, relationships are 99% mental. When my friendship with my married friend drifted into that fuzzy territory, at some point we realised that it's not appropriate any more. But it had nothing whatsoever to do with sex for me. In fact: the very thought of sex with her still freaks me out. This is probably the difference between sexual and demi/asexual poly logistics, because all I can think about is the abstract emotional side (on a physical intimacy level - perhaps being something like "cuddle buddies" at most) - I didn't even get around to thinking about sex because I'm simply not that into it upfront. My mind was simply too busy falling in love on a more abstract plane to even begin thinking about anything sexual yet. But I've stared the more abstract stuff right in the face, and seen the drama it can create, so I'm extremely careful with that now.

TL;DR: When I say I'm polyamorous, I'm talking about the emotional stuff - not having to repress the idea that you can love multiple people. Noone can promise not to fall in love with other people, unless you move to Mars and live in a cave in a totally sealed couple bubble. As for sexual exclusivity in a serious primary relationship - that does make a lot of sense. But again, I think it's far safer to not draw black and white conclusions on anything, because that's precisely what makes people dig subconscious loopholes around their ethics - and THAT is why I'd be very careful with putting my foot down on absolute sexual exclusivity with sexuals - partly for my own protection.

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Notte stellata

There is no "type" -- I've known very close marriages break up because one partner discovered (wasn't told by the other parter, discovered) that there'd been a one-night stand. No one's perfect, and an affair, even of one night, is not something anyone wants to tell their partner, so sometimes they just don't tell. They sometimes don't tell their partner that they're bisexual, either.

Where even just something like developing tender feelings for a friend (which is all that happened in this case) becomes this huge drama where you have to choose one over the other and feel like your world is crashing down. It's simply about being realistic about human nature. And part of human nature is that feelings for people wax and wane and evolve. There is no need to get up in arms and feel like you've got a split personality simply because you fell in love with a friend, and I don't want someone I'm with to ever feel trapped like that.

Well said. :) A lot of people who cheated on their partner said afterwards: "I had never thought I was the type to cheat." They were shocked that they actually cheated. See, there's no "type". Before the cheating, they were probably the biggest believers in monogamy and completely committed to their partner. But they fell for someone else nonetheless. It's not something you can promise that will never happen.

P.S. This thread is totally derailed. :lol:

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Sally

I believe there is such a thing as too much honesty---meaning, that by not prioritising what is important to say, by dredging up everything, you actually misrepresent yourself. Why tell someone "I was attracted to XYZ but I really want to be with you"? If I heard that, I'd be thinking "Well thanks darl, I really needed to know that. So what then, do you fantasize about her while we're having sex or what? Was there some point to this disclosure? Because you know, I'm just fascinated by every single thing that goes through your mind (not)."

I'm being really awful here, it's just my cynical sense of humour. Please don't take it personally. :P

No, you're not awful. My ex-partner felt that he should be able to tell me anything and everything he was feeling; therefore I always heard about every time he felt the slighest, most momentary attraction toward another woman. I really didn't want to hear that stuff; tell me if you're going to DO something about it, but I don't need to hear about it, dearie. Jeez. (Of course, if I'd done the same -- supposing I'd ever felt attracted to anyone, which I didn't -- he wouldn't have wanted me to tell him. :lol: )

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Kitty Spoon Train

Now when it comes to feelings, why would feelings develop without activities? If you don't talk to a person, you don't get to know them, right? So if you don't have intimate moments with people you're not married to, you won't get emotionally involved with them, yeah? And for someone like me, that's not a problem. I enjoy keeping most people at a cordial distance. Friendly, yes, but that's all. I REALLY like my personal space.

Okay, we've derailed this thread enough, so I'll just respond to this bit and leave it at that...:lol:

What made it so tricksy in this case is that it really was so insanely innocent in how it sneaked up on her (over almost 1 year). It was just a (mostly online) friendship that slowwwwwwly got closer over time. Looking back, there is really no way it could have been prevented, other than a blanket ban on all friendships with the opposite sex in their marriage.

Then again, maybe you really do have some kind of internal alarm system which would alert you to things like this - no matter how slowly and innocently they grow. But after seeing that happen (to a very relationship-experienced woman in her late 30s btw), my eyes are wide open. *shrug*

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Asexy51

Condoms for asexuals? Useless meaningless inventions, if you ask me.

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Cakey

Condoms for asexuals? Useless meaningless inventions, if you ask me.

Awesomely put in one sentence, we need to emphasise our own feelings, experiences and concerns, not be worrying, whether Bob-the-Dogger, from the 'Feels On Wheels' dogging club, is practicing safe car-park-sex with Nubile Norman! :)

[Please Note, I am not doggist, I love doggers, I just think cats are cuter!)

I do wonder, would our visibility be enhanced, by introducing our own Sex-Aid label? So instead of selling The Rampant Rabbit, we could market The Idle Bunny (No power, because of an electrical attraction problem). We could then demonstrate how consumer/supplier collaboration, could agree on an alternative energy source. :)

Please ask yourself, when you were Googling for information about asexuality, did you use keywords like, Queer, Condom and Dental Dam? If not, why introduce them now?

:) Visibiliy by affinity, not by alienation! :)

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Qutenkringley

Right. I've seen this issue belaboured for quite some time now. The project team has already explained its decision quite adequately and that they understand the concerns expressed by a number of AVEN's community members. They have even stated that they were unlikely to make a similar decision save under circumstances where it is unlikely to deliver a mixed message, i.e., very particular audiences. Essentially, they've said "We get the point and we're not likely to do that again."

Yet here we are, several weeks later, with the issue STILL being beaten on. What's it going to take to lay this to rest?

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Skullery Maid

I can't think of anything worse than having a partner who is free to put me at risk of HIV unless we always use condoms for the rest of our lives. And dental dams. I dated someone like that for a year and it was just pewk. So no, not for me. And again, what about children? Condoms and pregnancy don't go together so if at some point you want kids.....

Skullery is going to give you some thoughts on safe sex and STDs from a completely biased and probably bizarre perspective...

So, I have sex with women generally. The likelihood of contracting any major STDs between two women is extremely low. Mostly we need to keep our eyes open for things like herpes and HPV. That being said, I've had several girlfriends with herpes, plus my mom has always had them, and I've never contracted it so I think I'm one of the 25% lucky devils who are either immune or carriers. Lucky me! Anyway, I digress. My likelihood of contracting anything from a female partner is close to zero, particularly when you take monogamy into account. I'm aware that my partner may cheat and not tell me (I learned the hard way about the whole "no type" thing), but even if she did, unless she was sleeping with a man it wouldn't much matter anyway as far as STDs are concerned. Therefore, for the most part, I'm securely protected from STDs. As a lesbian, it's something that I don't have to worry about as much as other people.

I've often wondered how gay men and straight women deal with what I imagine is a constant fear of STDs. I know back before I came out, I was ALWAYS petrified of getting pregnant and getting HIV. I was a big obsessive weirdo about it... I used to take pregnancy tests all the time, and that's before I even lost my virginity! I've always assumed that straight women just get used to the spectre of pregnancy and STDs and learn to keep those fears at bay. Well, when I was in grad school I had sexy time with a guy. He didn't ejaculate inside me or anything but there was no condom used, so I, of course, PANICKED. I took an HIV test and it came back... inconclusive!! EEP! I had about a 2 week meltdown until the second test came back negative.

My assumption is that part of my major freakout was due to my inexperience with heterosexual sex. I had never developed those mechanisms for pushing pregnancy and STD fears to the back burner of my brain. I've never developed the common sense to appropriately analyze my risks and do away with doubt. I assume that to be a heterosexual or gay male, you must learn to compartamentalize those fears.

Which leads me to your statement, Sweetex... yes, you're totally right, in a monogamous relationship there is a need to avoid condoms (if for nothing else, pregnancy). There's a need to trust your partner completely (otherwise what kind of relationship is it?!), but there's always going to be a risk that by doing so, you're opening yourself up to possibly deadly diseases. Whether you want to call it faith in the relationship, or unflinching trust, or simply a pragmatic assessment of risk, I do think that it ends up being a cost/benefit analysis for everyone... is my desire (or need) to trust my partner completely outweigh the risks of doing so?" Most people will reach a point in their relationship where the scales tip from NO to YES. When those scales tip to YES and the condoms get permanently tossed from the bedroom, it's not because the risk has actually been lowered to zero, but rather one's tolerance for the risks has effectively equalized it to zero.

I hope something in there made sense. TL;DR... people get used to the risk of pregnancy and STDs over time and sexual experience, and those mechanisms for adjustment are necessary or else there would be no monogamous relationships or children.

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michaeld

Right. I've seen this issue belaboured for quite some time now. The project team has already explained its decision quite adequately and that they understand the concerns expressed by a number of AVEN's community members. They have even stated that they were unlikely to make a similar decision save under circumstances where it is unlikely to deliver a mixed message, i.e., very particular audiences. Essentially, they've said "We get the point and we're not likely to do that again."

Thanks Quten for the support: it is greatly appreciated. I would like to clarify one thing though. I still consider the condoms and their printed messages to have been a big success with the public, making the point that not everyone wants/needs sex in a humorous way - "have our condoms we don't need them" - with secondary points being that actually some asexuals do have sex; further we support safe sex, and asexuality is compatible with sex-positivity.

I don't regret any of this in the slightest, and would do the same in future, but only if the walking group members (i.e. those actually handing the things out) are enthusiastic about it. Needless to say, at WP only those who were happy to participated in condom dissemination, and the same will be true at any future group I am involved with.

In addition, I am in favour of reviewing the printed message again, as the current message could be read as "asexuals can have sex without condoms (despite being pro-safe sex)" though there is no evidence that any of the public I came in contact with saw it this way.

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Cakey

Right. I've seen this issue belaboured for quite some time now. The project team has already explained its decision quite adequately and that they understand the concerns expressed by a number of AVEN's community members. They have even stated that they were unlikely to make a similar decision save under circumstances where it is unlikely to deliver a mixed message, i.e., very particular audiences. Essentially, they've said "We get the point and we're not likely to do that again."

Yet here we are, several weeks later, with the issue STILL being beaten on. What's it going to take to lay this to rest?

Isn't that what a discussion forum is about, dicussing things? do AVEN have an official discussion time limit? Well, you have given your opinion about about those making opinions against condoms and passed on some information from the project time? what is your opinion about the condoms?

Because it is always better to discuss the title, than those makng opinions. ;)

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